Turns out they can EXPLODE?
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- čas přidán 27. 05. 2024
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Here are all of the dust collection chutes I currently offer:
shopnationstore.com/collectio...
These are the Bosch Axial Glide dust collection chutes as featured:
Bosch Dust Collection Chute: bit.ly/49O5beH
I hope this video is helpful (or at least entertaining!) for anyone attempting to solve miter saw dust collection in their shop. These saws are powerful and small offcuts can pack a serious punch under the right circumstances. It is our job to make sure that we don't put the saws in this position! Stay safe out there and happy building
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Links to Referenced Products (some are affiliate links which help sponsor the content!):
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Dust Right Hose attachments - amzn.to/3UAzOgl
GoPro for slow-mo footage - amzn.to/43MFTL1
EZ Dust Mask - tidd.ly/3YESc9A
Fastcap Zero Clearance Tape - amzn.to/3uXGkm0
Vacmaster "Beast" Compact 5hp Shop Vacuum - amzn.to/3v07BEk
Dust Right Dust Separator - amzn.to/3v0DrBc
iVac Pro Dust Collection Switch - amzn.to/3vzy76y
Digital Calipers - amzn.to/3olu4s0
Pentel Mechanical Pencils - amzn.to/3CEoK7x
Shop Nation Links:
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#mitersaw #dustcollection - Jak na to + styl
Love these product development series you’re doing, the full transparency is very honorable.
Completely agreed. Even with companies with teams of engineers and quality control infrastructure in place things still fail. I had a Bosch router circle jig fail on me after the first use and one would think they have a bigger team working on them then shop nation does. So kudos to owning up and taking us all through the journey.
I honestly believe the people who design, build, and sign off on new tools never allow the “ average Joe” to use those tools and give their opinion on it. No way should any tool have a negative if a true user got to use it before it went to market.
I just installed your dust chute on my Bosch Glide Miter Saw today, and found a link to this video in the package. I like your systematic approach to both development of the original product, and attempting to re-create conditions that caused failure. Great videos! I've been woodworking for about 50 years now, and I've had a few mishaps that would have thrown small pieces into your dust chute if it had been there. 1. Cutting small pieces against a stop. If you hold the saw blade down and allow the blade to stop turning you're OK; but if you raise the spinning blade while the small offcut is trapped against the stop, the extra thickness of the teeth will sometimes lift the end of the offcut until it becomes pinched between the blade and the stop, much like tablesaw kickback. That gives the blade the traction needed to launch the offcut violently. 2. Even without a stop, a wedge-shaped offcut resulting from a sharp miter becomes pinched between the fence and the body of the spinning blade. All is well until you raise the blade, and the wedge shape gives the teeth the traction to launch the offcut. Hope this helps you or somebody else. Great job!
Mine blew out when I was cutting a short piece of 1x2. Fortunately I use a third hand for just such situations. Never thought about requesting a replacement because it was my mistake. I just collected all of the pieces and glued them back together. Filled the missing gaps with epoxy. The design is good.
Yeah, see if the body is still basically intact, that's the way to do it. Just frankenfix it!
This is what happened on mine, too. The saw pulled the the short piece out from under the third hand and shattered the chute. I did contact Travis and appreciated the discounted replacement part!
I think 1x1 or 1x2 is stock that has issues most. I watched this video before mine arrived and the first cut almost blew out and I had a sliver get suck into blade guard. Definitely cautious with this now on what cuts I'll use it for.
this is not your mistake this is a product FLAW and a serious safety issue how does no one see that?
@@MattFormoso I'm wondering if this issue is just unavoidable and maybe the reason why dust collection is so bad on these saws -- saw manufacturers just don't want to deal with this problem.
Also, dull blades might make it easier to throw a piece as well. When the blades are dull, they are tearing through the wood as opposed to slicing it. I would expect it to be more likely to impart more force into the piece as you cut.
That's what I was thinking a dull blade or a warped blade could send pieces flying even if you don't let off cuts build up.
A dull blade will definitely do it worked for a cheap a$$ would use same blade for everything and only replace if it keeps popping breaker.
Type of blade too, you wouldn't want to use a deep gullet high aggressive cutting blade with a lot of positive rake i belive blades ment to be used on a miter saw are labeled for miter saw use, you shouldn't expect a table saw ripping blade
Not to cause problems.
I didnt see him test different types of blades. I have seen a serious ripping blade on a radial arm saw and that blade on that saw has a lot of lifting power something you do not want on a radial arm saw. Miter saws and radial arm saws use the same type of blade.
A dirty blade that's not actually dull is just as bad IMO. . .
Thank you for showing and addressing product “issues”. People often don’t realize how much time and effort go into product development and testing, so your transparency and honesty is staggeringly refreshing. Keep it up!!
Great video, thanks Travis!
I was one that had a chute explode and I promise I wasn’t cutting like a lunatic 😂.
My scenario was just a single cut (so no build up of offcuts), and the only time it got violently sucked up was when I did an angel cuts (22.5 degrees) on edge. Otherwise had no issues at all. Will definitely try the “zero clearance” fence trick tho.
Worth mentioning too was the great customer service I received when I reached out. 👍
was watching this video and was saying to myself that he test it while cutting bevels that results in small offcuts. That's the only time I get projectiles from my miter saw.
DeWalt had a recall on their saws for the same exact issue. The factory plastic piece was blowing up/shattering. The new recall repair kit is a stamped steel version .
...and they probably don't charge you for it. Recall/fixes are usually no cost to the customer.
@@OU81TWO Correct, it was sent for free, I still need to install mine
@@OU81TWO Uh, little bit of difference between publicly owned Stanley Black & Decker Corporation (parent company of DeWalt) with $15 Billion in revenue last year vs Travis' private start-up company. I can't even begin to imagine the size of the legal department for a public company that designs, manufactures and sells power tools. We bought an aftermarket gizmo that is not endorsed by the OEM's. I think he's doing everyone right by selling them a replacement unit at cost. Especially when most guys admitted right away, they did something they knew wasn't best practice.
@@josephlarson7725There was the potential of people getting hurt with the DeWalt issue. There is liability which can be quite high. If people start complaining to the Consumer Products Safety Commission, even for small quantity 3d printed parts, there is likely to be a recall, and the requirement to refund anyone who had to pay for a replacement part.
By the way, the old part was all polycarbonate (both pieces), the new one was polycarbonate for one piece and steel for the other. The other design change was to change the spring design. The spring change seems to be the major difference, as it appears the spring could have been installed incorrectly at the factory. Prerecall and presale units were only inspected, presumably for the spring position, and the part was not replaced if in the right position.
The main part of the 779 dust collector on the DeWalt which was causing problems on the Bosch is rubber on the DeWalt, not plastic. I think the recall is for a totally different problem, although both triggered by an offcut. With the spring not in position, the part could get pushed into the blade, which is what causes the shattering on the DeWalt. It's also part of the blade guard, not part of the dust collector, and is there to keep offcuts from getting into the top of the blade guard.
I got one of the pre-recall/pre-sale version which was inspected, but I didn't notice the little blue dot showing it was inspected until after I ordered the replacement part.
As a carpenter and long-time miter saw user, I have some thoughts to consider. The type of kickback you are seeing happens when the off-cut gets punched between the blade and something else. The pinching is usually necessary for the saw tooth to get enough traction on the part to transfer enough energy to cause that much acceleration. It can get punched against something rigid, like the fence. Or it can get punched against something soft like the rubber dust boot. Without the pinching, the off-cut just usually just moves out of the way a little when the saw tooth makes contact. Leaving many small pieces in a confined area certainly increases the likelihood of pinching. However, a single piece can definitely pinch against something and become a projectile. I have done it many times. For me, that is usually because my off-cut is slightly smaller than the gap between my blade and fence. That is one of the ways the zero clearance fence helps. The kickbacks that I experience, as well as the ones that you duplicated, can be reduced by operator awareness. First, keep the cutting area clean, as you suggested. Second, be aware of the off-cut size and potential spaces that it can get pinched and bind against the blade. I would question the idea of making a dust collector strong enough to not break. The rotational energy of the blade is very high at that RPM. Your kickback examples blasted through that plastic with almost no effect on the blade speed. Imagine if that off-cut had no place to exit and was forced to stay bound against the blade until all of that energy was absorbed. I think something more catastrophic would happen. Possibly blade damage or even damage to the spindle, bearings or aluminum housing. Maybe giving the off-cut a way to exit sooner or easier would be a consideration. I hope this helps.
Your theory is clrearly demonstrated by the video and I am surprised Shop Nation did not catch on earlier. This is exactly what happens during a table saw kickback event when the cutoff wedges itself between the spinning blade and the fence and transfers the rotational momentum of the blade into the cutoff with sometimes explosive force!
@@Peter-House-Jr good point about the similarity to the table saw fence kickback. Also, he asked how the first piece could cause this issue. It is conceivable that a single piece could bind and kick if it were the right size to bind between the blade and something else like the dust collector. That would be dependent on the width of the workpiece and that it slides back behind the blade. I would think that is a plausible scenario.
Ever have to trim off a small 45* cut. Don't hold on for your life. Quick release hand.
one way to get a high chance of kickback on mitre saws is to use a stop block on the off cut side, then raise the blade while its still spinning post cut. that basically blocks the off cut between the blade and the stop block and shoots it out.... just in case you ever need to test stuff like that again.
This is what I was hoping to see in the video.
Exactly, I get kickback pretty predictably when cutting smaller pieces with a stopblock. Very rare otherwise
My elderly dad often uses my saw. He’s not a woodworker. So I constantly remind him to let the blade stop spinning before raising it when using a stop block. Anyone with a miter saw should be taught this
I was assuming the kickbacks were from stop blocks.
No, you are obviously incorrect. Only people using their saws like maniacs and who pile up offcuts on the cutline will have any issues. /s
Disappointed with Travis' attitude in this vid. To berate part of his customer base as entitled male karens (no matter how much of a PITA they might have been) isn't something any successful company does. Come on Travis, you're better than that.
I was really surprised how much cutting power (and torque) this saw had out of the box. I've used other (10" saws) previously and was pretty surprised with the speed and cutting ability of this Dewalt saw.I have bolted mine to a table to minimize movement which I highly recommend.This is a Great saw czcams.com/users/postUgkxPeGkHOMe05FySypTOvYumxMn-xi39oRe with a light to see your cutting line (not a laser line).I'd recommend this saw fro anyone looking to upgrade from a 10" miter saw.
What about making your “cattle grid” solution a replaceable part that clips onto the front, sell them in packs of 5 or something then these can be sacrificed rather than a main blow out.
As an added bonus you could sell them if different colours so people can personalise their version 😊
or I was thinking if it could be machined out of a light weight aluminum or something that would be stronger than printed plastics.
@TheJesseMoody at that point it would likely break the plastic it is mounted to. The next weakest link.
@@tannerkennedy4941 Most likely as that will def be the weakest link in the chain.
@@TheJesseMoody plus he would probably have to outsource this to a machine shop as he makes all his products on his own with 3D printers.
@@DogTownRiverRat yeah that would be the downside. unless he invested in some new equipment to produce them but that isn't cheap.
I have done some stuff that is pretty great with flexing and impacts but the speed these wood chunks hit the plastic and their hardness is what will destroy the plastic every time.
There is a story about Henry Ford when designing the engine for the Model T. He had an issue with the engine block cracking. His engineers told him to make the metal harder. But he decided to go the other way and make it softer. This gave the block a little flex and solved the problem.
when i was much younger, we discovered the ford flat heads had thick cylinder walls, causing uneven cooling and cracking. we started boring out at least 15 thousandths and cracking stopped.
My first one exploded with one quick cut ( I should have taken more time) off a 3/4" piece of plywood. I had been using it for a few weeks with no issue. I never let anything pile up on the saw so I think it is just something that can happen when you cut small pieces. I ordered a second one because the product does a great job ( I paid full price, no complaints) but I had already decided to add the fence before I use it again.
I’m wondering if your small cut happened to use a stop block?
Same thing happened to Dewalt Miter Saws.. they switched back to metal from plastic. They did offer free replacements/fixes though.. as the liability from the "explosions" is something you should be aware of.
Your dust collection adapter has been a game changer. It has greatly diminished the amount of dust that comes off of each cut. Thanks for sharing this update.
I bought a delta cruzer yesterday based on your video. Immediately ordered a chute for it. I've got full confidence in your stuff because of your approach on these videos. If you make a new version that's better, I'll buy that one too. Thanks man.
Crazy, literally just happened to me yesterday with one of these collectors. Luckily I ordered the file and printed myself. Got another one going now and will be more careful going forward.
Suggestion based on how manufacturers I used to represent handled breakage issues (in an entirely different industry):
If the customer sends you the damaged item - with note on circumstances if possible - send the replacement free.
Along with written warning not to misuse in ways you've already discovered (include that with all future orders anyway).
Otherwise they pay for replacement at cost. Once.
Essentially you're buying information doing it as suggested above.
I had this happen to mine after having it on the saw only a couple of days. It wasn’t the scenario you described of letting off cuts buildup. Possibly it was related to my dust collection which I didn’t see fully explored in this video. An assumption was made that it was part buildup only but never investigated.
The issue happened on mine with a piece of pvc pipe and a small offcut. It is possible the lighter weight and my 2” hose to my Makita dust extractor is what was happening.
I definitely think that the dust collection aspect is possibly a factor.
Great feedback, I’ll look more into that
@@ShopNation I replied in another comment but there are a number of things that should be considered prior to pointing to the user. It happens with completely normal use and without buildup of offcuts. While I do clear my off cuts, I wouldn't even consider that an offcut is misuse. The dust control is one variable that wasn't explored but there are a number of factors not considered but a conclusion was reached indicating it is the user.
@ShopNation Hi Travis, just installed my brand new v11 on my Bosch glider. First cut to test the dust collection was on a length of a 1x1.5” piece of pine; about 1” wide. It blew out the back on the first cut without even lifting the blade back up again. 😢. Entire right side of the chute was blown to bits.
I’ll drop photos to the support mailer but wanted to make mention that I wasn’t cutting like a madman; the piece was lying flat not standing up; blade is basically brand new 80 tooth crosscut and dust collector is a 5hp shop vac.
As someone who has been 3D printing for over a decade, I have a materials recommendation.
Rather than using PETG, which is fairly brittle, you might try ABS or ASA.
You will need to enclose your printing cabinets to increase the ambient air temperature (and maybe add a heater).
ABS is an engineering grade material, with a little more elasticity than PETG.
As an engineer, I appreciate the process you followed to duplicate the failure. Something you've discovered is that some users will push the limits of the tool. Others just don't follow proper technique. You can break almost any tool if you aren't careful. FWIW, I've had my dust collection chute installed since September and I've had no issues thus far.
Failure analysis: Chunk of hard substance, imparted velocity from saw blade, impacts hard, brittle plastic dust chute, causing dust chute to fail.
Just nowing the shear number of times my miter saw has launched 1x1x1inch square projectiles into the metal guard at the back of my saw blade, I would suggest that he missed a requirement.
Dust chute shall withstand impact from projectiles launched by rotating saw blade that impact the dust chute.
Calculate impact force: napkin calculation yields 3.5 lbf
Possible trade studies: 1) Strengthen the dust chute to withstand the impact of small, high velocity, hard substances. 2) Provide impact absorbent substances within the impact zone of the dust chute to mitigate the impact of the small, high velocity, hard substances into nondamaging impacts.
Think of more possible trade studies, then add to this list. One of them will provide a low cost, reliable solution to his problem. Otherwise, someone is going to be injured by shrapnelized, printed plastic and this guy will be sued into oblivion.
Thank you, Travis, for being so open and honest. I purchased your digital plans for my Ridgid miter saw and it has made a HUGE difference in the amount of dust in my shop. As a novice woodworker, I sincerely appreciate the heads-up and safety warning. I've also learned a lot just reading through some of the comments, here, so thanks to you experienced woodworkers, too! (I just built my miter saw station and added a fence just so I could use stop blocks for repeated cuts...but now I know not to use a stop block when cutting small pieces.) Thanks again!
Customer service that "surprises and delights" can be an incredible but often overlooked marketing tool.
I think you were really onto something with using TPU. Was hoping to see what impact it would have. I think it's worth a try.
It may not be economical given the challenges of printing with flexibles but it's worth an experiment
The only time I've seen this even happen is when I didn't clear out the area behind the blade, or when a small piece fell into the path of the blade. I really appreciate the engineering work you're putting into the product to make it better - I'm looking forward to your DeWalt version when it's available because the "dust collection" is a complete joke. I use a trash bag duct taped over the saw instead.
I resin printed mine and have been using it for a few weeks. It works wonderfully!
I have not had any shooting pieces, and definitely no blowouts.
Keep up the great work!
Received mine Friday afternoon for my Bosch saw. Used all day yesterday no issues. Love the dust collection. I will be mindful of clearing out any offcuts. Thanks for the video.
That was incredibly interesting. Thanks to Travis for being forthright and sharing. We need to be fair as we’ve all had to occasionally break out the epoxy to fix things on our tools….even the big name expensive brand stuff. Reminding to use caution is always a good idea, even if you didn’t purchase the dust collection
I'd also like to see how these do in TPU as you had mentioned. In the drone space it has proven to be pretty resilient to impacts and is still lightweight.
I think the issue is this: then what happens? It would travel around the blade guard and back towards you, right?
@@kblock1738 Yeah, if all that force doesn't break through the back, it's just going to get thrown back into the blade again... "best case" it just juggles around a bit until it flops out harmlessly to the side...
@@kblock1738 It would probably just get sucked up by the dust collection.
I just bought the new Bosch Dust collector. I was so excited to have a great dust collector for my miter saw. I did not think this would happen to me but it did. I found plactic across the shop Bummer!
Ordered mine already. Can’t wait to use it. Thanks for an insightful vid. Love the transparency as well. Wish more businesses would do that.
You should create a template for the opening of the zero clearance which follows the curve of the dust chute, while allowing the chute to pass through so that it is as close as practical. You can make it downloadable.
It looked like it was the little rubber piece at the bottom of the chute that was holding the small pieces of wood offcut in place, causing them to catch on the blade and get shot out like a rocket. I know that is a pretty important part of the dust collection system. But you might want to consider redesigning that part.
Super stoked you released this. Full transparency is worth miles of denials!
Love the R&D you're going through for your viewers and product customers. Keep it up sir.
Great video. I think you could make this happen more often by using a stop block to make a short cutoff piece.
Great video, and great that you took the time to test the scenarios. I don’t own one of the chutes, but it seems clear from the testing that just keeping the offcuts, i.e. projectiles, out of the way solves the issue. Common sense…still important. 🙂
I have found that 'Common sense' is not that common. :(
I’m not sure I agree that it is clear that off-cut buildup is the issue. This happened with mine and there were no offcuts except the one that broke the chute. All possibilities were not explored and it isn’t that difficult to replicate.
Kudos to you for leaning and trying to make your product better!
had your product for about 1 year works great never had any issues with it love it keeps my shop clean thanks
I’ve been a viewer since day one, like someone else said the transparency you provide of your own products is awesome. I think a lot of people would be intimidated to make a video like this of their own product. Just goes to show you have great confidence in your products. The issue here seems to be user error. Great job!
Awesome update video. I had a thought while watching, would a thin rubber pad with adhesive lining the intake be enough to absorb the kinetic force and prevent it from shattering? I don't think the rubber would impede the air flow, and if it solves the problem it might be worth a try. I definitely think the main issue is user error. Thanks for the update vid!
I learned this at a woodworking school that will make your problem almost non existent. When you start the blade and make your cut, don't ever lift the saw up out of the table until the blade stops spinning. This way the blade can't shoot anything that can cause harm to you or anyone else and you do t break or destroy anything
I don't lift the saw up until after the blade stops & it will also help with the cut quality.
I had a similar experience as B Greg T did. Although the piece I was cutting was a longer piece of oak, I collected the pieces of plastic, used epoxy to put the pieces back together, spred some more expoxy to re enforce it, and back in business. Your honesty is refreshing.
I’m highly impressed you’d make this video on CZcams. Most people don’t expose themselves honestly like this. Bravo.
Also it’s Chads
I thought they were Kevin’s?
I admire the tenacity to solve an issue that I feel is really not a design flaw. This increased the, already high, respect for your channel that is, in my opinion, one of the best. Thank you.
When mine failed, it was only a single cut of a 1x1 piece of red oak about 3/4 of a inch long. I chalked it up to a slightly less than sharp but not dull blade and lifting the blade too soon without letting the blade come to a stop. With my reprinted one, I just cut slower and let the blade stop before lifting or lift slower.
It is a good product.
i just got my kit for my Bosch 12" and I'm very glad you sent the card with the link to this video. While I don't generally let little bits collect around and behind the blade, it doesn't hurt to have more incentive.
Time to market a high quality miter saw solution with zero clearance inserts and rear support ;) Love your channel man, been here since video-1 and loved watching your business grow
It's a piece of cake with a non-sliding miter saw at 90º ... but when you add the sliding capability, miter and bevel cuts, it's fairly impossible to retain zero clearance. The best you can do is configure zero clearance for each situation but even that won't address the sliding aspect.
Great video and love the transparency. Knocking your unhappy customers and calling them “Karen’s” wasn’t a value-add to your message. May have made you feel better, but kind of petty too. Refund at cost versus just cost of postage seems like you aren’t willing to stand behind your product, even if they were stupidly using the mitre saw. A bit penny-wise, pound foolish as word of mouth is free advertising and fixing a poor review, even one, is much more expensive than just replacing a piece of plastic. Your business and not knocking what you do. You have always produced high-quality videos, merely some observations from the cheap seats.
In my opinion my reaction is 100% dependent on the attitude of the customer. I’ve replaced several for free because the customer was a reasonable human being. On the other hand, if you come at me like an entitled 4 year old, I’m far less likely to be generous
Fair enough. This wasn’t talked about in the video. Look, some people suck….but treating some differently than others because of their attitude will give you mixed results. Have one policy and apply it consistently, so it takes the emotion out of it. Regardless, I very much enjoy the videos you produce and not being critical. Merely providing a point of view to consider or dismiss. Good luck with the business and as soon as you have something for the Festool miter saw I will be buying one. Dust free my ass….😅
I love my duct collector that i bought from you.
Thank you for the update and honest appraisal of your product.
Thanks for sharing Travis I appreciate how you shared everything about your products good and bad and how you go above and beyond to come up with a solution for the problem. Would buy one for my miter saw if you ever develop one for it 🤞🏻
Great to see that you're able to keep your mind focused on the customer experience and continue to strive for a better product and overall the safety of your customers!!! As always buddy 💯% 👍 🇬🇧.
I like how you were able to duplicate the "failure". Was it a "failure" or did it actully prevent a missle-block from hitting someone or something behind the saw?
My thoughts exactly!! I was wondering out the result without the shroud. Would it have ricocheted back into the users face?
Thanks for this follow up video. A few data points to add to your collection: I bought the stl and printed it in ABS, TPU flex and PLA. The PLA failed quickly, the ABS held up better and the TPU flex was too flimsy and ended up bending and catching on the blade. For info, the failure in my case is not the catastrophic damage you show but rather the connection between the 2 3D printed parts meet with the 2 hand screws. I'm trying to CNC machine the part staying on the saw with 6061 to prevent that. Thanks for sharing
I'm glad you addressed this. I bought the STL for the delta saw from you, printed it, and during my first test, it picked up the little drop off and exploded. Scarred the shit out of me. I had a shop vac with the 2 1/4 hose down to 1 1/4". I just printed another one and now make sure that my drops are either big enough to not get sucked up, or small enough to not matter.
I'd be really interested in seeing the results of a flexible material like TPU!
Depending on how hard that piece is launched and how sharp the piece is, it might tear (or even cut right through), but at least it won't shatter. Of the 'normal' filaments used (PLA/ABS/PLA/PETG) It's already the least stiff (it has more flex to it).
After every cut, you should clear the area. I'm not sure these people were taught how to use their tools.
Well that's not how it happens! What happens is the vacuum volume increase picks up small offcuts and pulls it into the back of the blade. First cut!
Also, I've been a wood worker for almost 40 years so instantly thinking they are incompetent using their tools isn't always an accurate assumption!
@@quadsquadracingable If your off cut is hitting the back of your spinning blade then it's still user error. You should let the blade come to a complete stop before releasing it out of the slot.
@@umchoyka really? I have let off the trigger just before the blade finishes the cut to see why it was doing it. And unless the blade instantly stops the nano second the cut is done the blade being inside the throat plate waiting for the blade to stop you can't prevent a small 45 degree offcut to be not sucked toward the dust chute where guess where the blade is? Inside the dust chute! Again your assuming what's happening. Instead of assuming the user error is the culprit, use questions or science in figure out what is going on will save anyone else from taking a simple comment personally. Which I didn't, I just want to be understood how I had an occurrence of more than once with different parameters.
I agree. I usually clear the off cuts so they don’t become bouncing bullets in the shop.
Thank you for the update. I have found your shoot to be super effective at dust collection. It’s amazing
I purchased one for my Bosch a few months ago and it was working great until about two weeks ago... I was carelessly making a free hand miter cut on some white oak with the majority of the work piece in hand and resting against the fence. The small offcut obliterated the dust collection and sent that beautiful Bosch plastic into low Earth orbit. No injuries but I will be finding that shrapnel for months to come. I already purchased another SN dust collection shroud and will now be creating a zero clearance fence.
As an engineer selling product you have to anticipate almost anything. It doesn’t look like the material is up to the job. You don’t want anyone to get injured.
Why would anybody pay even cost for a replacement? You need to warranty your product and send a replacement free and shipping on your dime.
Hey Carlin 👋🏼
Not necessarily, was it becuse of improper safe us on the saw or just a fluke thing? Yes if it was a safe cut meaning no short cuts over the gap area of the fence if the end of a cut or cut off is in the fence gap, the saw has to come to a complete stop befor lifting the blade,
Lifting a running blade often sends parts flying also taking short cuts under 4" long
So a board has to be used to bridge the gap the sawblade has to come to a stop befor lifting it. It always has been that in the owners manul or you risk sending the offcut flying.
Last point, if you drive a 6 speed corvette 100 miles an hour and drop it from 5th gear to 3dr gear for more motor rpm
And the motor timming chain jumps a tooth a piston knocks a hole on the side of the block should GM send you a new motor free of charge?
No becuse its beyond the usable capabilities of almost every engine and its product abuse.
Now he's taken the time to test his product under extream condition and came up with a solution and cause
He could decide not to warrent claims on that principle. However he needs to send a product use statement how and why safe use for it, now if somone still has problems he can look into that if proper procedures are used.
I think he's being very fair.
I just got my dust chute yesterday. Put it on today and it is awesome! I can see most of the dust being sucked away! Love it! My second cut on a 2x2 slammed back into the chute and back behind the saw. Nothing broke. It was a big piece about 1" or more. I will be making a zero clearance fence for small cuts.
This is a great demonstration on the effort and thought it takes to make something that works and yet idiot proof. Makes the price of great stuff like festool completely relevant.
You should probably include a warning sticker on each unit, and paper stating that the user should clear the off cuts - sort of like McD's puts the hot coffee warning sticker on the cups now. There is always some nimrod out there who doesn't understand or take the time to both learn how to use a tool, but also use common sense. CYA
😂😂
100% this ^^^
people complaining of a defective product are karens?
Product doesn’t randomly fail, takes an input. Are cars faulty if you drive them into a wall?
@@ShopNation Mr Shop Nation, with all due respect to you -- you make great videos, and now products, all very cool. I've watched so many videos where you say essentially -- "I DONT FULLY KNOW WHAT IM DOING, IM JUST TRYING STUFF. IM JUST A GUY" which is great... and then here when you have actual regular guy woodworkers (maybe newbies) have your product explode in front of them, you cope by calling them lunatics just because they left an offcut in there.
Ironic because on one hand you've titled the video to grab our attention by saying your product explodes and on the other hand calling these guys lunatics and karens because they were shocked the product exploded.
I love this. Guaranteed that a product will be stressed in every inconceivable way when people get their hands on it.
Travis, I also had the 1 cut poop my pants experience! I too will do the zero clearance fence. I do appreciate you taking this on and being honest and open with us! I also really appreciate you standing behind your product even though it really isn't the product or production of the chute. I gladly accepted you offering a discount on another one. I have told many a wood workers about the chutes and sent them the info. Nice job keep up the good works you're doing! Clete/ Conk Woodworking😁.
I would add a link to this video when you send your product to customers... mayby edit out the Karen/Carlin part.
Nah
In the world of customer service, if 1% of your sales have an issue, and a very small percentage of those customers have an issue where a replacement is the best/only option, why not eat the cost of a few dust collection shutes, and skip the drama? People will likely be more outspoken of your product if you took care of them in these admittedly rare scenarios, than if you call them Karen's on CZcams. Not to say that some people aren't truly ridiculous sometimes, but chalk it up to R&D, and be known as the guy/company that handles the issue.
Agree, and that is usually what happens, there really haven’t been a ton of “Carlins” to deal with, but as a very small business I’m choosing not to let them win, even if they give a bad review - who cares
I have a chute for my bosch and love it!
An old shop teacher told me once that you get more "zingers" from the upstroke after the cut. Just wait a second for the blade to stop after cut.
Excellent video, I appreciate your transparency with your ongoing engineering progress.
It may be worth further exploring the contribution of the vacuum setup, and possibly advising that people don’t over do it.
I never leave small offcuts near the blade… but I did over engineer my vacuum setup to maximize airflow, and I have had multiple small off cuts catch the blade and impact my shoot. Luckily the damage to my shoot was repairable with some CA glue.
If you’d like more data about my setup to support your ongoing engineering process, let me know, I’d be happy to share.
When mine shattered, I did not have any off cuts in the way, it was a single cut on a 2x2. The flap was touching the board then the piece shot back and and obliterated the chute. I wasn’t being irresponsible like Travis was in this video, andI wasn’t going fast on my cut. Please wear safety gear, and perhaps look at other dust collection options if there isn’t an engineered solution to this problem.
If your product broke, you should replace it at no cost.
I would think possibly a dull blade may be an issue as well so something to consider. It may also be helpful to run a control with the stock dust collection in place to see what would happen out of the box. Love the videos and keep up the good work!
Hi Travis - I was another one who had a little "explosion" with the first gen version on my 12" Bosch saw which did a great job reducing the dust issue. In my case, I was making an end cut on a piece of Fypon brick mold which had been mitered. That little triangle was light enough to be picked up by the suction and then wedged between the blade and the "horse collar" piece, shattering that and a bit of the larger piece. I should have reached out back then when it happened but forgot about it until I saw this excellent video. As another (retired) engineer, I appreciate your pursuit of an improved product and how forthcoming you've been about this relatively rare issue.
Just ordered version 2 and will be sure to be a little more careful when cutting light plastic bits in the future!
Pro tip, maybe don’t insult your customers by calling them Karen’s on CZcams. As a potential customer, I was quite put off by this. It won’t stop me from buying something in the future, but it will make me think twice before doing so or recommending you store. I don’t believe the adage that the customer is always right, but when they’re wrong, it doesn’t do anyone any good to publicize it. Rise above that.
I hear you, but my "Karen" comment was pointed at an extremely small percentage of customers. I'm just not of the belief that a customer gets to do/say whatever they want with impunity
@@ShopNation Fair enough. I agree that you had no obligation to send them a free replacement. I would have just let it lie and not call them out publicly. Nothing to be gained by doing so, and you might have rubbed a few people the wrong way.
Your comment about the Karens (Carlins) was in bad taste I feel, sounds like they were well within their rights to ask for a replacement. I'm not familiar with consumer affairs in the outside of Australia, but here in Australia those Karens would be entitled to a repair, replacement or refund under consumer law. Understandably you're a small business but that would not excuse you from your obligations to a customer when selling a product. Your product unfortunately had a major fault, it happens, but don't vilify your customers because of that.
Regardless, I enjoy your videos and your designs, I have the Bosch mitre saw and one day look forward to purchasing the .stl file to one day print for myself. All the best.
That would be like asking your car manufacturer to replace the bumper after you hit a pole - in this case
@@ShopNation if you hit a pothole with new tires would you expect a new tire if it busted ? You made it so stand behind it.
@@ShopNation I don't think that is a fair analogy. You created a product that has been shown to explode in specific (yet predictably) circumstances to the point where you have made a video to understand the issue better. Sounds like your product so far hasn't been designed to stand up to reasonable and expected use of a mitre saw. I say reasonable and expected because the circumstances surrounding the incidences sound like they happened during fair and reasonable use of the product.
I assume you have the ability to sell to customers in Australia, so i will quote Australian consumer law. Below is an abstract from the ACCC website highlighting the definition of a major fault. I believe your product is currently unsafe, has a serious problem, and can't be used for its normal purpose in these specific incidents. Highlighting the consumer rights for a replacement, refund or return.
Abstract below;
What makes a product problem major
A major problem means the product:
- is unsafe
- is very different from the description or sample
- has either one serious problem or several smaller problems that would stop someone buying the product if they knew about them beforehand
- can’t be used for its normal purpose, or another purpose the consumer told the seller about before they bought it, and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time.
Furthermore, I can understand your frustration, as this has only happened to a small percentage of your customers and as someone who has designed for a hobby I understand the hours of design, creativity and testing that went into this product. But ultimately it did fail, and that is on you to build and learn (you probably already know this as an engineer, most learnings come from failures), but it was still in bad taste to get annoyed at the customer for your products failure.
Looking forward to trying the GCM12GDL version soon. I promise I'll clear away my off cuts, like a good boy!
Good work, love watching you troubleshoot things, whether it is creating a new design (would love to see a video of the efforts to create the Dewalt dust collection shute) or troubleshooting a failure. As always, great job!
Just because asked for a full and free replacement that doesn’t make them a Karen, I’m waiting on the makita collector but if it breaks I expect a full free replacement
Male Karen is a Chad
I think it’s actually Joe 😂
Nope, it's actually ken
TPU may be a good idea to try. That stuff can be amazingly tough and resistant to damage. Although, I think a TPU part would transfer all that energy to the mounting bolts that could be used as the sacrificial structure. The flexible duct would survive the impact and the mounting hardware could easily be replaced.
I got mine broken by a tiny off cut of 8020 aluminum profile that shot into it and broke it off. I suspected I was making the cut too fast and the aluminum was pretty hard. Never had problem cutting wood before tho, so I was going to order another one when I’m done cutting all the 8020s. I’m glad that you made a video to address this problem, and I really appreciate the honesty and effort you put into your videos & business!
Send me an email so I can send you the discount!
@@ShopNation To duplicate the error, place a stop block in order to make repeat cut lengths approximately 1 inch from the blade. Push the stock lumber against the stop block and cut the 1 inch square block off using the blade. The severed block will become trapped between the stop block and the spinning blade, launching it into the dust chute.
Yeah mounting random shit next to a spinning blade is dangerous.
You absolutely should’ve given those people a free replacement, not at cost. Your product exploded dangerously and you’re calling them Karen’s for not wanting to pay for a replacement… lol
That is implying it randomly exploded without any input. And I would completely agree with you if a high % of people experienced this…but it’s just not the case
There is a reason that the principal manufacturers don't use plastic in that part of the saw guard. Try making them out of something like aluminum, they will not shatter.
I've had kickbacks on my Bosch glide when being lazy. (one broke the little tab that holds the small stock collection tube in place). Miter saws are the one power tool that invites laziness as they're relatively "safe" ...but this is a good demonstration that you always need to pay attention. Haven't purchased one of your adaptors ... but thinking about it. Good on you about the follow up.
Why would you not replace it for free?
Postage and materials aren't free, neither is loss of income when Travis could have been manufacturing one for a paying customer. Further, if you are going to get a free replacement every time you negligently break something... why stop misusing them?
@@givemeanaccountdamit It's not necessarily negligent, and you can't just make that assumption. Anyone, who has ever used any kind of saw, has had kickback... experienced, responsible or whatnot. I never let material buildup, and I've had it from how a small end piece settles after a cut. It's not 100% avoidable, and I haven't had a stock dust chute break from it. If your dust collection system is shattering (creating an even more potentially dangerous situation), then it needs to be addressed. What happens the next time a collection chute shatters, and the entire thing drops into the spinning blade -- pushed forward by the hose -- you can be sure that Travis would be facing a lawsuit, and that's something I bet he'd love to avoid.
So if any product is misused, the manufacturer should replace it for free?
@@chrisvanderwielen1530 In an overly litigious country like the States, maybe you're right and Travis ends up in court... Discouraging others from trying to make your life better. Given you led by saying all saws create kickback and that it's completely unavoidable to create hazardous high velocity projectiles, I'll ask if you have ever taken a saw manufacturer to court for trying to kill you? Back to chutes, given stock chutes: are too far away to collect dust, reliably do next to nothing, are likely injection moulded from PC, and even if they did crack have next to no plastic to them to send flying, I am sure they are a far superior product for you, enjoy returning to them and stay safe out there.
@@givemeanaccountdamit A power saw, by its very nature, creates kickback. That's why we use things like feather boards, push sticks, spacer blocks etc. If the product was installed correctly, then there shouldn't be any issue with replacement. Unless Travis specifically mentioned that kickback breakage is not covered, or outlined required usage to maintain operational parameters. Given that Travis had to specifically create a chaotic work atmosphere, and that a small % of his customers are experiencing the issue, it doesn't appear all that common.
But you watch a video of Travis going out of his way to recreate the problem, and then just assume that's what people who experienced the issue were doing. Unless you can tell me, with 100% truthfulness, that you have *never* experienced kickback, of any kind (first off, I won't believe you, if you've been woodworking for longer than a week), then you should just stop being obtuse, for no other reason than to be obtuse.
Also, you do understand what recalls are intended for, right? When a manufacturer has identified a potentially hazardous defect, then they replace those products free of charge, to avoid litigation. I'm sorry, but the product exploding right next to the spinning blade -- and it 100% could happen under normal usage conditions, however unlikely -- for him to just ignore it would leave him open to litigation, if anyone were to be harmed by it. This video alone would serve as proof that he was aware of a situation.
I love your channel but was really taken back at the way you blamed your customers for what is clearly a QA fail on your part. Maybe the reason that Bosch and other manufacturers have less robust dust solutions is that they have seen this sort of issue and don’t want to chance hurting a customer and assuming that liability. In my mind you should do an immediate recall and refund 100% of purchase to anyone who requests that. Honestly your failure to do that is shameful. God forbid someone gets hurt from your product. Your blaming the victim probably won’t go over well in a personal injury suit.
That is the most ridiculous take on the video 😂. So all products should be recalled if a very select few experience it breaking under abnormal circumstances? Also the entire point of the video was to identify a potential change I could make OR offer solutions to reduce the risk of it happening
I'm glad I watched this video. I bought one of your shoots for my Bosch miter saw and I absolutely love it! I'm new to woodworking so my experience level is pretty low. Thanks for making this video.
I don’t have a powered mitre saw & am unlikely ever to have one as I have other tools to do this type of of cut. But - and here is the point of this post - I was intrigued by your problem solving approach. Simply very good.
Um, Karen’s or Carlins, they are your customers … interesting attitude / approach when you have a product that is potentially dangerous.
If the emails were as extreme as suggested, I doubt there was anything he could do to appease them in any case. As for the product being dangerous... I think you'll find the dangerous bit is the spinny bladey thingy that it's strapped to. No high energy event without the rotational moment. Is the manufacturer of an aftermarket table saw fence to blame if the user does unsupported cross cuts against it and gets kickback?
So you want lies about customer attitudes, rather than the truth? You must be a Karen/Carlin. He had to make a whole video to prove that when stupid stuff is done, stupid prizes are won.
if anything, his product SAVED those Karens' or Carlins' mitre saw motors from getting hit by projectiles.
The product isn't the dangerous part, the projectile is.
Exposed another Carlin😂.
Great follow up. Bought the file so i can replace if i do something stupid. Looks like most of the failures were user caused. I like the zero clearance fence and will be building one. Thanks Travis.
Purhased one of these and waited for its arrival with great anticipation. Installed it easily following the directions. Then immediately got very sick and haven't been able to use it once. :( I'm almost fully recovered and looking forward to putting it throiugh its paces. It feels good to see your thorough and public response to this feedback.
Get better soon!
Thank you for addressing the complaints, it is great to see in this day and age to have dignity in business practices
Very great product! The only one that I had shatter the back side of the dust collection chute was when I cut through a knot, and a small piece (.5") of the knot flew through the back side of the elbow. Since then I've cover the hole with blue painters tape, and it still works well.
Great video as always, Travis. Love the way you approach everything from a logical and experimental viewpoint and come to practical conclusions.
At first I loved the idea of this concept and ordered one. Delivery was as promised and product out of the box seems very quality, instructions are clear and easy. Overall out of the box super professional and as advertised. The main issue I'm running into currently with it on my bosch is cutting anything about over 2" in height. Currently making a lumber cart and with the 2x4 on its side, the flap sticks out so far it makes a lot of contact with the 2x4. So much so that the flap hits the saw blade. Normally wouldn't cut a 2x4 on its side but was making miter cuts and its significantly easier to do those with the 2x4 on its side. Would be fine with the 2x4 flat but this won't help you if you're cutting say a 4x4 or larger etc etc. I'll say I'm not a perfect or super meticulous wood worker. I don't let my stuff pile up like in this video by any means. I have however had material fall into the cutting slot in the base plate area. Normally I clear that out but with my old dewalt slider I had a piece fall in there that I just didn't see and that kicked back and had this attachment been on, COULD have a similar result? I don't expect a refund or replacement or anything and not knocking the product or business. I'm going to attempt doing some of my own modifications to the flap to see if I can make it work for my uses. But as of right now, if you're a bosch axial glide owner and wanting the most versatility out of the saw as possible... I'd say just keep the stock dust collection. Again I think the business itself is great and the concept is great. If you're only cutting thin and small material like what's in the videos then I think you're good to go with how this baby is set up out of the box. But a little annoying having to make modifications to it so early on in its life and possibly having to throw it out if my modifications don't work.
This is a great demonstration of the challenges of product design. I do agree the rubber flap does add to the issue, however technique and best practice is really the cause here. Unfortunately, as in many cases, over use of safety devices/design elements greatly reduces the effectiveness of the tool. Then people complain about the functionality limitations. Oftentimes it’s a no win.
For reference, here is an excerpt from page 5 from the Glide user’s manual…you know, the one that no one ever reads:
“Do not use the saw until the table is clear of all tools, wood scraps, etc., except for the workpiece. Small debris or loose pieces of wood or other objects that contact the revolving blade can be thrown with high speed.”