NKP 765 Close Pace - Baker Valve Gear
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- čas přidán 24. 12. 2015
- One for all you valve gear geeks.
This is Baker valve gear, designed by the same A. D. Baker responsible for the efficient Baker Uniflow steam traction engines, manufactured in Swanton, Ohio.
One of the advantages of the Baker gear is that there are no sliding elements, as found on Walschaerts and Stephenson gear, and the Woolf gear found on most steam traction engines. The downside was that many railroads didn't want to pay royalties on the Baker - Pilliod patents, despite the better efficiency and maintainability.
Cruising forward, the reverse lever is nearly in the company notch, for minimum steam consumption. A small wisp of steam is admitted to the cylinders, and allowed to expand for most of the piston stroke. Preparing to stop, at 2:10, the reverse lever is advanced to full forward gear, and power maintained to keep the train stretched out while stopping with the train brakes.
After stopping, control of the air brakes is shifted to the pullback diesel, the reverse lever is moved to full reverse gear, and a small amount of throttle applied, to provide cylinder lubrication, and to prevent vacuum drag in the cylinders.
At 5:47, the feedwater heater cold water supply turbopump below the front of the firebox is started, with its characteristic whistle and plume of steam.
Mary shot 2/3 of this video, and Dave shot 1/3.
Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
October 4, 2015
#533
Panasonic FZ1000
151004h 765 CVSR Pace - Věda a technologie
One of the best, I was to young to realize how petty them old iron beasts were. Now I’m 83 they all gone, I remember them but I didn’t appreciate them, boy I watch pictures of them as much as I can. Thank you 😊
New to appreciating steam locomotives. Really appreciate the long views of the wheels, rods, and pistons in action. Thank you.
Imagine, I grew up with these engines!
I could watch this all night
Thanks!
I wish I had more of it!
I just can't stop watching those side rods!
Me neither! Baker gear looks strange when running in reverse.
Sweet! There's just something about these old steam locos. Nice valve gear footage!
Thanks I enjoyed the video you actually showed us the hardware rather than the scenic pictures that usually come with this former video I hope you make one on the regulator I'm really curious about that and I haven't seen one yet
The throttle linkage is visible starting at 6:42. It is a horizontal rod just above midline of the boiler side, with a small lever going into the smokebox, and a bellcrank midway back, to compensate for boiler expansion. Inside the smokebox, the throttle is a row of poppet valves, opened one at a time by a camshaft, rather than a single large valve. This is to avoid a thermodynamic problem called throttling, where a large amount of steam's energy can be lost by passing through a small opening, as happens with a conventional single opening throttle valve. The thermodynamic principle is called "throttling", and it robs power. Lima had a genius engineer named Will Woodard, who performed extensive experiments on steam flow, achieving such large improvements in efficiency that Lima sold their engines as "Super Power", with many comparison tests on the road to prove the difference.
The efficiency of these engines was such that Nickel Plate road tested EMD diesels, then bought another order of berkshires instead. These engines were trusted to run as single units to pull refrigerated meat trains worth over a million 1950 era dollars. They normally hauled fast freight at 60 mph across entire 100 mile divisions. The Mars light was effective at a time when there were many unprotected crossings. I watched them back then, it looked like a big light saber slashing ahead of the train.
7.36 - 7.51 is the best sequence for seeing Baker Valve Gear at work in this video.
Here in New Zealand we had 93 locos with Baker Valve Gear.
Good video, nice and clear, and good quality.
Did you count the last two ka class with bvg.
Oh yes:
Class J = 40
Class Ja = 35+16=51
Class Ka = 2
Total = 93 locos.
Well done.
0:57 to 2:40 is the best for Forward with baker valve gear
Extra-super film. Thanks - regards
Why am i just now finding this? Beautiful locomotive in great condition.
Just alive isn't he
Several other sister engines are on display across the country, this just happens to be the running one. Pretty much all of the surviving NKP Berkshires are in great shape.
Steam locomotive view is always new and Whistle is Tremendous.
Great video. Very cool shots of the valve gear and wheels!!
Thanks!
I'll tell my wife, I was driving.
Think I'll keep her!
Such a magnificent machine!
AT THE START OF VIDEO THEY MUST HAVE ADDED SOME COAL!
AS THE SMALL STUFF LEFT THE FIREBOX , THE SMOKE CLEARED NICELY! GOOD FIRING!!
caps
A living breathing beast.
I'm building a freelance loco in 7.25 guage and after watching this video, i removed the valvegear and fitted baker gear. Pity i did not see this great video months earlier, great video thanks
Be glad you got the pacing footage when you did. The local and park police and the CVSR have made it virtually impossible to photograph or pace the train when 765 is in town. All of Riverview Rd. that parallels the tracks is posted "no parking" during Steam in the Valley, and the local cops hang around at train time and run off anyone who tries to do what you did. They have made it virtually impossible to railfan in the park when steam in in town. The CVSR hates the fans, and considers them nuisances that never buy a ticket.
What a bunch a jackasses
CVSR hates fans? Total nonsense. If they hated the fans, the 765 wouldn’t be there.
@@RichMelvin They bring the steam locomotive in in September to boost interest and ridership when there is a lull in ridership between the Summer vacation season and the October Fall colors. I have been a volunteer there a couple of times since they started in the mid-1970's. It's absolutely true about their attitude towards railfans. I've heard it verbalized by people in charge over different decades. It's part of the culture of the organization. And really, there are a lot of fans who want everything for free and never buy a ticket, but that gets amplified in the minds of the officials.
@@paulw.woodring7304 They fail to understand that we would like to buy a ticket but cannot afford it.
Is the train is over the paved road speed limit, understandable the police do not allow speeders.
If not, they have no right to prevent pacing the locomotive.
Stopping on the shoulder is not parking.
@@robertgift Speed limit on Riverview Rd. is now 35 mph in the park, the train has a limit of 29 mph, so not a factor, unless you're trying to get ahead to your next photo spot (they also have used temporary fencing and barriers to block off parking at most crossing). They just make it as miserable as possible to get decent photos of the steam train.
What a beauty. I'd say I am piston crazy! Happy New to everyone. 😀👍
Great footage shot well .Very nice .Thank you
Thank my wife, I was driving!
I’m glad they maintained cylinder lubrication...this time.
Mighty expensive lesson.
Expensive lesson? For who? 765 never suffered any failures due to lack of cylinder lubrication. I was one of her engineers for 34 years, from 1982 through 2016. I would know...
For maintenance.
The 765 never suffered any cylinder issues. The folks who own her take really good care of her.
A D Baker Company made agricultural steam traction engines. They always had a distinctive sounding exhaust. My favorite traction engines because of that booming exhaust note
I have a big Baker video coming up soon...
Those are some beautiful shots of #765!!
@MusicMadMaurice If you knew anything about cameras, you would know that the small sensor size of phone cameras means almost everything is in focus all the time due to the constant deep depth of field. I don't even see anything out of focus here, I think you need to get either your eyes or your internet connection checked.
Not only that, most larger sensor video-capable digital cameras were relatively awful at autofocus until the DSLR and mirrorless revolution in the late 2000s, enabled by the same CMOS sensor technology that was developed for phone cameras.
@MusicMadMaurice Panasonic FZ 1000, not a cell phone. I'm not seeing the out of focus you are reporting, maybe some of youtube's compression. Are you viewing in 1080P on a fast cable connection? Click on the gear icon below the image to see what resolution you are getting.
@MusicMadMaurice Thanks for the reply!
We do what we can. As someone commented below, photography on those CVSR trips is very difficult.
I have an old Lionel just like this one on my bookcase. Has been there for years.
What a beautiful machine, I noticed several things, the main drive wheels all have balance weight on each one different dependent on connecting rod arrangement, dont think I ever noticed that on an engine before. And what seems like a power assisted valve adjuster with a big piston and some sort of control valve to regulate it. Somthing like the way power steering work's on a car except here its steam or compressed air not oil as the power fluid, You have to hand it to the people who created these marvelous engines for the ingenious design and implementation. And thank you to all the people who are working so hard to maintain them. Plus what a great close look at the mechanics in operation,, Cheers to all of you
Chuck Itall THE MAIN DRIVER AXLE
HAS THE BIGGEST COUNTERWEIGHTS TO COMPENSATE FOR THE BIGGER PART OF THE MAIN ROD PLUS THE WEIGHT OF THE PISTON ASSEMBLIES!
THE END WHEELS HAVE THE LEAST WEIGHT SWINGING OFF THEM!
@@rossbryan6102 yeah I got that...just never noticed before...little things like that just make me see the brilliance of the designers building these back when people are ridding around in horse and carages, it's astounding.
just guys with slide rules pencils and paper.
@@chuckthebull Different size counterweights were standard on all engines, but on the NKP engines the main counterweights were bigger than many, as they had to counterbalance the heavy siderods needed to transmit both high tractive effort and high speed. Their speed limit in service was 60 mph, but 765 ran 70+ on some trips out of Chicago a couple years ago.
The power reverse was needed on any decent size loco, as the valve gear transmitted quite a bit of force on each stroke. The alternative, which some of the NKP Berkshires had, was screw reverse. It worked, but was a pain if you were doing much switching along the road. As a result, NKP concentrated engines with the 2 types of reverser based on how much en-route switching was performed on a division.
addendum, interesting note on the firebox vents, gotta look that one up for the. details
i am amazed every time i look at it .steam power engineering is one of my favorite subject when i was student. sadly steam today is pollution and yet still use in power-plant. we need a whole new source of energy to power the engine and the world.
Still not as bad as diesel.
If fusion power is ever fulfilled, it will, just like nuclear energy, still use steam to drive the turbines. Its not the steam, its the means of generating the heat.
Modern coal fired power plants put out near zero emissions just like diesel trucks due to tier 4 particulate filtration/SCR systems. do a little homework.
Nice Video.
Vary nice video!
Thank you for introducing me to another type of valve gear.! Walschaerts were all I ever saw in Newark Oh. I dont recall ever seeing Bakerr before (maybe never slowed a video down enuf lol)
Added. BEAUTIFUL VIDEO!! An old B&O machinist thanks you.
Baker was generally considered a better valve gear, as it didn't have that link block that was sliding up + down slightly on every stroke, creating wear. However, the patented Baker gear required paying a royalty on every unit installed, many railroads didn't want to pay for it.
Note, Baker was just down the road from you, in Swanton Ohio. They also made high tech (for the time) steam traction engines, which used an inverted version of Baker valve gear. The buildings are still there, now a machine shop.
@@SteamCrane Wasn’t Baker considered worse for high speeds than Walschaerts?
@@blackbirdgaming8147 I wasn't aware of a speed issue, do you have any more information? The advantage of Baker was that there were only rotating bearings, which could either be friction or ball/roller bearings. Walschaerts has a sliding block that slides up and down a very small distance on each revolution. Since the block is positioned by discrete notches, it would tend to wear ridges in the link, especially in full gear or company notch. This is also why steam traction engines with slide valves are always run in full gear.
Beauty, grace, grandeur.
...and 4000+ hp, has run 70+ mph recently.
One of the finest engine designs ever built, utilized to the max by Nickel Plate Road.
Never noticed this before: maybe it's just the angle of the view, but that piston rod looks really small (compared to the massive connecting and side rods). I wonder how it can handle the tremendous force of transmitting each piston stroke to the rest of the drive train. Maybe Lima designed it that way to reduce the reciprocating mass?
You're right! Part of the design would be to make the piston rod as small diameter as possible, to make the packing small, thus less circumference to seal.
Thanx bush for blocking the first notch change. Thanx youtube for dropping video out on the next notch change.
That line is really tough to shoot. Worse now with cops going crazy. Glad for what we got.
DAMN! That made me want to hear NKP 587's whistle blowing coming down the tracks near FT Benjamin Harrison!
Never got to see 587, wish I had!
@@SteamCrane Dude, I'm about to date myself here OK? I remember playing on 587, when she sat in Brookside Park in Indianapolis back in the day!
Maravilhoso.
Well done
Thanks, I'll tell my wife you liked it!
I prefer medium rare. ;o)
only comment I can think of. is, the caption stated an action on the valve gear movement,I was looking for a closeup, preferably. on the engineers side
That's a Lima 284 steam locomotive.
the train that was used for the polar Express.
Partially right, but it was actually the pere Marquette 1225. Her and this engine are both the same model
I feel like the Walschaerts valve gear has a bit more stride in it’s motion. I wonder what that would look like on a Berkshire locomotive?
So if I was to build a 7.5 gauge live steam model of this particular locomotive, would it also be possible to experiment with building a streamlined casing on it?
Why not !!? You could make it look like a rolling log cabin if you wanted, or an Oscar Meyer hot dog and bun with mustard.
You could, but it would make more sense to base on one of the engines that was built to be streamlined, like the NYC Hudson 4-6-4's, or the N+W J 4-8-4's like N+W 611. I'd love to see either of those in 7.5".
What’s stopping you? Everybody knows 7.5” gauge is stupid expensive. It’s your money to do with as you damn well please
YOU MAKE IN THE MOVIE LIKE THE POLAR EXPRESS
Pere Marquette 1225 was used for the movie, a near twin 2-8-4 to 765.
Way good camera work!
I'll tell my wife, she did most of it!
The problem with Baker on models is the multiple pivot points and pins that are prone to ware. All the eyes need to be case hardened with the pins made from unhardened silver steel (high carbon precision ground steel). The pins will ware but are easily replaced.
The Baker valve gear "looks" a bit simpler than Walchaerts. Am I seeing that right? Thanks for the video!
It's more complicated than it looks. There is a pair of outer vertical links, that is tilted forward or back to select forward or reverse. Hanging inside it is another pair of links that swing forward and back as the drivers rotate. Inside that is a bell crank that converts the up and down motion from the 2 nested links into fore and aft motion to move the valve. Then it also has the same type of combination lever close to the cylinder as Walschaerts does, to derive a ratio of the movement from the valve gear, and movement of the crosshead.
Nice no one leaning out of cab with orange safety vest to spoil photos as happens hear in New Zealand
Yeah. I've always detested the new era look, like they're no diff than guys redoing your street tarring or ditch digging...So plastic and gaudy...and the hard hats ! Ugh. I wonder if it has prevented any less injuries than in say, 1952..
Certainly, she's a beauty which tugs us back to an earlier era. But....all that exposed valve gear, which needs regular lube, is now bathed and sealed in oil in a diesel loco. You can see why it had to modernize.
How fast was she going when she was going forward?
That fast !
29 mph max on the CVSR.
R M Okay Thanks!!!!
@@RichMelvin Really good to hear from you, hope you are doing well!
Baker engines are known for thier loud bark.
Why did the locomotive get yeeted backwards?
No turning or runaround facilities on the line. However, in real life, steam locomotives ran in reverse quite a bit. Unfortunately, photographers of the time almost never shot pictures of that operation, only burning film on perfect front 3/4 shots with the rods down and excessive smoke.
One of the oddest operations I remember from a bit later was a single NYC F7A lightning stripe, running in reverse, pulling an interyard transfer on the Cleveland Belt Line thru University Circle.
So...... where was the shifting of the valve?
Very brief grab between 3:05 and 3:08. They sat there a while before shifting it, then I had to start the camera asap!
Still got a crosshead slipper...and that's a sliding element ;-)
"Crosshead slipper"? Pleaseplain.
Yes, it does, but there's a difference. The crosshead always moves the same distance, wearing a constant length. The Walschaert's link block moves a varying amount, depending on reverse lever position. Thus it could end up with ridges at commonly used cutoff positions, that the link block would hit when the reverse lever is moved further. Judge by results, progressive railroads like NKP, C+O, and NYC used Baker, deciding it was worth paying the royalty.
Something I learned about recently, owners of steam traction engines normally run them in full gear, rather than cutoff, to avoid wearing ridges in the slide valve faces.
Still like the look of Walschaert’s motion better... but a magnificent loco nevertheless....
Is anyone else hearing some slop in the engine? I’m hearing lots of play and knock in the valve gear and connecting/ side rods.
That noise is perfectly fine. If you did not hear it, the bearings would be running hot. She's operating as designed.
I'm no expert, but I've heard multiple times that some play is normal and needed
Especially if lateral motion devices are being employed, play is necessary to allow for the lateral motion.
Hey, this engine was here in Owosso, Michigan during the Train Festival of 2009. The Steam Railroading Institute had all the trains here they good get. The Pere Marguette is our Big Steamer. It runs the Polar Express for kids to see Santa each year. It was used in the Movie that was done. Come to Owosso to see the big steamer and other smokers we have and take a ride. Visit the site,,,,www.michigansteamtrain.com/
That's 765's near-twin, Pere Marquette 1225. Differs only in minor details. PM was a subsidiary of C+O in Michigan.
765 + 1225 have done trips together, double heading or running parallel.
What are they trying to do?
Go for a ride. This was an extra short run for the volunteers.
I can never get an answer as to what the clanging noise is with all steam engines. When running at cruising speed, it sounds like someone it hitting a piece of pipe. All steam engines have this noise.
I believe it is the side rods pushing on the wheel crank bearings, then pulling on the cranks each revolution of the wheels. I assume the more wear, the more play and therefore more "clang".
THE NOISE IS MOSTLY THE SLAPPING BETWEEN THE DRIVER JOURNAL BOXES AND THE PEDESTAL JAWS ON THE MAINFRAME! A LITTLE OPERATING CLEARANCE IS NECESSARY TO PREVENT
THE JOURNAL BOXES FROM BINDING!
ADJUSTING THIS CLEARANCE IS DONE BY MOVABLE WEDGE ASSEMBLIES!
@@robertgift It seems if the bearings wear that much, they must have to replace them often. Almost every engine has this sound.
It's pretty much a universal steam engine thing. Unless they're absolutely brand new and tight then they clank. Even my 7 1/4" gauge model clanks when it's just coasting.
As the train needs to navigate curves and also some unevenness in the rails, the wheels and rods cannot be linked perfectly rigid. They need some play, to allow for a bit of movement in various axis.
The drive wheels on steam locomotives are linked together with a drive rod which connects to each wheel. It seems to me that each wheel would have to be accurately aligned with the rod to a few thousands of an inch in order to run correctly. Does anyone know how this is done?
The drivers are linked together by the main or side rods..Measurements/calculations in the foundries and RR shops are quite sophisticated about tolerances. It's not string and chewing gum..All machinery has minute play in their moving parts. That's why they must be broken-in. And don't forget expansion and contraction of these components due to changing temperatures. That's taken into consideration as well when designing a machine....
Not sure what you're referring to by alignment. Alignment in reference to the rod being parallel to the wheels? If so, that rod can float from side to side on those drive wheel pins or journals without any real detrimental effect. (Obviously I'm not talking huge amounts here.) The critical measurement would be length, to keep the wheels in time with each other. That would be done by locating the journals on the rod at exactly the same distance apart as the axle centers.
is that the polar express or the union Pacific big boy
My dreem is to drive the steam train in a full steam ahead
Why did she stop and why is she going backwards
It's a short tourist line. Out and back ...
Mark Harris oh ok
This was an extra short trip they added at the end of the day. Most trips were much longer.
Love steam engines. But boy! Do they ever pollute the sir.
The trains are going backwards and forwards
There is no place to turn the engine at either end of the line. Reverse running also happened in regular service, but you don't see many photos of it, as photographers of the time were hung up on getting a perfect 3/4 front view, and didn't want to waste expensive film shooting an engine running in reverse. The trailing truck is designed to guide the engine in reverse, the same as the lead truck was designed for forward operation.
Samantha brown
It’s the polar express!
Polar Express is Pere Marquette 1225, a near twin of NKP 765.
The tender capacity has been extended? it's really spoiled the look of a magnificence engine. :-(
I don't think its that bad plus they saw it as profitable so I wouldn't complain. Afterall she's still in service isn't she?
Fair comment. :-)
The coal boards allowed 3 or 4 more tons of coal, thus making longer trips possible without diesels. They are removable. They were only used one season.
What I object to are the extended side boards on the tender. They ruined the aesthetics!
They were there to allow her to carry more coal for several long-distance excursions for Norfolk Southern’s 21st Century Steam Program. They’ve since been removed...
BITCHING ABOUT EXTENDED SIDE BOARDS? RUINED AESTHETICS??
ARE YOU A PROFESSIONAL WHINER???
YOU SHOULD BE GLAD THAT THIS ENGINE WASNT SCRAPPED, OR IS RUSTING AWAY AS A STATIC DISPLAY IN A PARK!!!
Why is the train running so far and so fast in REVERSE? Definitely untypical and not really recommended for safe operation.
Vietnam Vet definitely not untypical.
These were pull-pull excursions. Steam power going south, then a diesel on the rear hauls the train back north. There is no place to run around the train at the ends of the CVSR.
Nothing at all unsafe about this.
@@RichMelvin I agree that with power on both ends these push-pull operations can be quite safe. But it definitely unsafe and quite rare for a train with power/control at only one end to operate in reverse at anything other than a crawl.
NOT THAT UNUSUAL FOR SPECIAL EXCURSIONS SUCH AS THESE!
THERE IS OPPORTUNITY TO STOP THE TRAIN, LET ALL WHO WISH GET OFF THE TRAIN ALONG THE TRACKS!
THEN THE ENTIRE TRAIN IS BACKED UP A GOOD DISTANCE AND THEN ROLL BY THE AREA
AT A GOOD SPEED!
AFTER PASSING THE TRAIN IS STOPPED, AND BACKED AGAIN TO PICK UP THOSE WHO GOT OFF, THEN CONTINUE THE TRIP!
THIS IS KNOWN AS A PHOTO RUN BY!
SUCH MOVEMENTS ARE PART OF MANY EXCURSIONS AND ARE PREPLANNED AND EXPECTED
BY OPERATING CREWS IN THE AREA!
THESE ARE TYPICAL AND SAFE
AND WELL MONITORED BY ALL QUALIFIED OPERATING PERSONNEL!!
@@rossbryan6102 I've been on many special excursions, and NEVER did the train travel in reverse at such a speed as at 5:38 into the video. In the case of this excursion, that speed is safe since there is a locomotive on the formerly tail end now heading the train.