It's funny to read that, because it is with this work that Olivier Latry began the inaugural concert after the very important restoration of 1990-1992, on December 4, 1992. The grand-organ was thus "revealed" for an amazed audience... "Inoubliable" !
@@rotunda57 But thank God it pretty much survived the fire. Unfortunately, it might be ten years before we hear a sound from this most glorious of instruments.
Il n'est nullement question🤨😶🙄 de "discuter"l'interpretation, il s'agit de savoir si on "apprecie"Olivier MESSIAEN🌹🇻🇦✝️🇨🇵🌹 ou non.....peu importe si les partitions sont "annotées"de sa main ou non😶🙄🤨!!!!!beaucoup n'accroche pas au "monde musical"de l'organiste de la TRINITÉ🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢 !!!!!!!
Wow - enjoying this here on my set of JBL4300 series monitors and subwoofer. Just wow - and I SO love that French organ sound with its splash of mixtures and wonderful reeds. I have played this piece myself but never on a French instrument, but M Latry gives the piece a wonderful unity and I love the pace and the registrations.
I first heard this piece in my 20th century music history class at university this past semester... Easily my favorite piece that I learned from that class! Haha, this is GREAT.
I find it quite amazing that any could question the performance of one of the world's greatest organists, Olivier Latry. OK, so YOU might think it a bit "fast", or whatever. Do you not for one moment believe that the maestro considered what he was playing, where he was playing and for whom he was playing on that day? If you're not considering that, shame on YOU, not on Mr. Latry, whose performance here is utterly flawless.
I pity those so enslaved as to be unable to question; small wonder we're experiencing western civilization's nadir. In terms of accurate interpretation of the work, no one can reasonably consider Latry to be a greater performer than the composer himself, the basis for my comparison, and I'm sure Latry himself would disagree with you, as self-effacing as I've heard him to be.
Your type are ten a penny Russ. Reminds of the RNCM. Those who couldn't play spent their lives bitching about those who could, under the guise of the 'scholarly' authenticity debate. Latry is a genius. End of.
C'est par cette oeuvre qu'Olivier Latry a commencé le concert d'inauguration du grand-orgue de Notre-Dame après deux ans de silence, en décembre 2012. La "progression" jusqu'au Tutti a été un moment totalement exceptionnel, comme la "fermeture" d'ailleurs. J'attends que ça recommence !!!!!!!!!!
je vous suis totalement. Cette progression , lente et profondément majestueuse évoque une foule en marche, celle de l'Eglise éternelle pour Messiaen, qui vient des ténèbres jusqu'à occuper totalement la scène (tutti général) , puis se retire lentement jusqu'à disparaitre comme elle était apparue. Cette pièce est profondément évocatrice, comme bien souvent chez O Messiaen (Les Corps glorieux, la Nativité...) . Croyant ou non en l'Eglise éternelle, l'auditeur est pris aux tripes. Comme dans certain passage similaire, incroyablement lent qui n'en finit pas, de "2001, Odyssée de l'Espace"...La richesse des sons du GO de ND apporte beaucoup : bombarde / contre-bombarde évoque chez moi l'immensité de la foule de cette église éternelle, les anches et chamades signent la magnificence de cette foule des "saints". Et quelle richesse harmonique, amplifiée par la propagation du son dans Notre-Dame, à n'en plus finir. C'est porteur de sens de manière inouïe. Et O Latry sait parfaitement rendre tout cela. J'aurais aimé être présent ce jour là. Pour info, cette "Apparition de l'Eglise éternelle" a été retenue pour illustrer l'assemblée des saints cette année au Mont St Michel, dans le cadre des noctures d'été avec mise en scène audio-visuelle époustouflante, dans différents endroits du Mont. Messiaen, c'était dans le réfectoire des moines, avec des projections sur tous les côtés, montrant partout l'assemblée des saints faisant face au public, présentée assise sur les bancs du réfectoire. D'autres évocations musicales ( Requiem de Mozart, Pie Jesu du Requiem de Fauré, etc...) se situaient ailleurs dans le cloitre du Mont tout illuminé, ou dans la basilique à peine éclairée. Moments magiques, et je crois que c'est l'enregistrement d'O Latry qui a été retenu pour Messiaen. Tout cela va bien au delà du "plaisir" musical.
I totally follow you. This slow and profoundly majestic progression evokes a crowd on the march, that of the eternal Church for Messiaen, which comes from the darkness to occupy the stage totally (tutti general) , then slowly withdraws until it disappears as it had appeared. This piece is deeply evocative, as is often the case with O Messiaen (The Glorious Bodies, the Nativity...). Whether or not a believer in the eternal Church, the listener is caught in the gut. As in some similar, incredibly slow passage that does not end, from "2001, Odyssey of Space"... The richness of the sounds of the GO of ND brings much: bombardment/ counter-bombardment evokes in me the immensity of the crowd of this eternal church, the reeds and chamades sign the magnificence of this crowd of "saints". And what a harmonic richness, amplified by the propagation of sound in Our Lady, never to be finished. It makes sense in an unprecedented way. And O Latry knows how to make it all. I would have liked to be there that day. For the record, this "Apparition of the Eternal Church" was chosen to illustrate the assembly of saints this year at Mount St Michel, as part of the summer nocturnals with stunning audio-visual staging, in different parts of the Mount. Messiaen, it was in the monks' refectory, with projections on all sides, showing everywhere the assembly of the saints facing the public, presented sitting on the benches of the refectory. Other musical evocations (Mozart’s Requiem, Pius Jesu of the Fauré’s Requiem, etc...) were located elsewhere in the cloister of the Mount all illuminated, or in the basilica hardly illuminated. Magic moments, and I believe that it is the recording of O Latry that was retained for Messiaen. All this goes far beyond the musical "pleasure". ...(Sorry for eventual mis-translation...)
The positive ions radiate through my rippling soul as I shield my eyes to the solar wind belching from the pipes during the intergalactic quintupleforte hold...blitheringly laughing my heart out like a little child who's just seen the Lord in all His Glory...SCREAMING IN SHEER JOY OVER MY SUDDEN INDUCED RAPTURE!!!!!
To view this merely as portraying the so-called Wrathful Old Testament God is a disservice to Messiaen's theology. This is the Vision of the Eternal Church, and so I think it's more an invocation of the Apocalyptic vision seen of John, of the Son of Man returning as he left, descending through the clouds in holy majesty. We may call it "Terrible," but we may better call it "Awful," in that the divine vision fills us with Awe. Dissonant and minor chords resolve themselves into powerful fifths and major chords, and I see this as evil and terror being washed away in the Final Judgment, which is not only the final victory of God's justice, but His mercy and love as well. It is the consummation of the marriage of Christ to His Church, the wedding banquet of everlasting love, the Eternal Worship of the Lamb, an occasion not of mere cowering, but of raucous and attendant joy, for it is like "Terra Tremuit": It ends in "Alleluia," the proclamation of joy in the Lord. This was far longer than it needed to be lol.
No it was not too long at all! Wow. SO well said. I just discovered this piece yesterday and your explanation just made me fall in love with it even more!! Thank you for such a thoughtful theological response.
On the nail? Indeed, if you swallow trinitarian theology in all it’s sado-masochist irrationality.Meditation upon 2nd Thessalonians Ch 11: V 2 and a deity who’d nail his son, who is actually himself, to the cross for sins he knowingly made possible in the first place may cast some light on the cosmic horror of this conception, none of which however detracts from Messiaen’s glorious illustration of such horror and moral perversion.
This is the only place in this piece where a full major C chord is played. The rest of the chords are missing the 3rd note, so only sound 1-5-8. Weirdly mysterious, and neither major or minor.
Un morceau lugubre et ténébreux qui rend hommage à l'église splendide et éternelle du Tout puissant construite par ses créatures - Etrange et solennel et qui valut en son temps à son créateur les foudres de ses paroissiens. Quel étrange paradoxe !
C'est littéralement renversant ! On pourrait être foudroyé par une telle puissance... J'espère avoir un jour l'occasion d'entendre cette oeuvre jouée à Notre-Dame.
I think this is the only Messiaen piece I could play. When the sky parts for the Second Coming, this is the music you'll hear, so y'all better start behaving. Meditative, transcendent, powerfi;/ I envision a gothic cathedral rising out of the water.
Read excerpts below from various sources online. If this doesn't sound like the building of a "church eternal" that has gone through hell (see, Dante), I don't know what does. It's if it were written for the rebuilding of Notre Dame. "Programmatically, the piece describes the appearance of the eternal church, which then fades away. This imagery has been compared to Dante's description of the inferno. Messiaen described the piece by quoting from the hymn Cœlestis urbs Jerusalem: "Scissors, hammer, suffering, and tests, tailoring and polishing the elected persons, living stones of the spiritual edifice", stating that the throbbing bass depicts the incessant work of construction. He also wrote the following poem: Made out of living stone, Made out of heavenly stone, It appears in heaven: It is the Lamb's bride! It is the heavenly church Made out of heavenly stone Which is the chosen's souls. They are in God, and God is in them For heavenly eternity!"
Thank you for quoting the poem. Nothing about hell or Dante or inferno, although it is severely serious and prophetic. I love the work and love playing it on huge instruments for an audience that can handle Messiaen's "vision."
@glander100. Sounds to me like he's following the registration as Messiaen wrote it. This is pianissimo for this instrument with the swell reeds pulled. Compare it to the fffff at the climax. BTW, Latry was Messiaen's primary student, so he should know a thing or two about these works.
God, the sound of these screaming pipes is loosening the mortar in the vault stones...lol... beautiful! I just can't imagine being there and hearing this.
Well, two weeks having passed, I tried uploading the enhanced version of the video, but after a rather long wait, processing was abandoned, just with a message saying it couldn't be processed - but no reason given. I can only guess that it may have been flagged as a duplicate post. - So it looks as though I probably can't post this enhanced version after all. -- Pity.
@@EU-xn6kl - Thanks for your encouraging words. At the moment I'm having a pig of a time trying to work out why processing of the video is being consistently abandoned, with no reason given except "CZcams couldn't process this video". I'm wondering if it's some bug on YT rather than anything wrong about the video, but am now going through a series of experimental uploads with different video track and with different audio track. The trouble might be some setting that's got corrupted in my video editor (Shotcut) - might need to uninstall / reinstall it. The enhanced video plays fine in VLC, so I know there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
C’est beau comme la non-rétractabilité des serres des oiseaux rapaces; ou encore, comme l'incertitude des mouvements musculaires dans les plaies des parties molles de la région cervicale postérieure !
if the churches want to get more people in THIS is how to do it !!! religous organ by Messian, dupre, bach and others !!! wine and top class bread afterwards!! the churches would fill !!!
WTF??!!! -- Having struggled through doing various wangles to work round whatever technical glitch was causing my audio-improved version of this video to fail to get processed, through a circuitous sequence of manoeuvres late this morning I finally managed to upload that version at last to my channel, and have it accepted - I then keeping it as a private item until I'd be satisfied that it was okay to make public. -- Whoopee!! EXCEPT, there was this: www.philipgoddard.com/messiaen-apparition-latinautor-claim.png . Yes, there's a surely BOGUS effing copyright claim on it by the notorious Content ID scammer Latinautor! I have no time to go contesting such a claim, when it isn't on one of my own works - and, let's face it, I don't even know who owns the copyright for the basic material in this video, so, sorry to disappoint, but I can't have that on my channel. However, I'm keeping the enhanced video on my local system for the moment as an MP4 file, and the enhanced audio file as a flac file. So, it's open to Erik or anyone else who is going to act responsibly and would like to risk a problem with latinautor, to contact me, and I can upload the video or just the audio to my OneDrive space and send the person a download link for it. ***PLEASE DON'T CONTACT ME JUST FOR A LISTEN!*** - This is only for a public-spirited individual who would be posting it on YT and either run the risk of getting hit by scumbag Latinautor or go through the trials of contesting Latinautor's claim - and the latter option of course would require one's knowing who is/are copyright holder for both video and audio. I really think that's the best I can offer now. It's truly shocking and shameful that YT routinely allows these content ID scams to operate and cripple the work and often livelihoods of decent law-abiding individuals.
indeed, he doesn't play pianissimo, and according to the score he isn't supposed to. He should play forte in the beginning, with a full (closed) swell. This is exactly what Messiaen wrote.
Absolutely stunning - as if Latry's 'official' recording of this work (i.e., the one on CD) isn't stunning enough! However, I've experimentally quite dramatically improved the stereo imaging of the audio of this (soundstage width, and overall clarity and detail, and with all clipped peaks repaired), but legally can't do anything with that without express permission of video and recording owner(s), and I want to keep entirely legitimate. Erik, I wanted to private-message you about that, but couldn't find a means to do so, because I do think this wants posting in addition to the presumably relatively raw version of the recording presented here. Would you like to PM me so I or you or another relevant person can get something moving about this?
If you would be so kind I would absolutely LOVE to hear your cleaned up/improved version of this recording. From one organ enthusiast to another it would be such a treat. This piece, played on This instrument, is pretty much peak pipe organ LOL 😎🙌❤️
Maybe he did, the vengeful, capricious, unpredictable sadistic God of the Old Testament. Certainly not a loving God. In saying this I'm not trying to take anything away from the staggering brilliance of the composition.
Biblical studies have been one of my pursuits for some decades. 2nd Thessalonians Ch 2.V11 comes to mind but I’m sure you’ll manage to place that in a context that won’t undermine your theological pre-conceptions.
Enthralled would be the word I'd use.. This is one powerful composition. I think there might be only a handful organs or organists that could perform this piece of music and do it justice.
I agree with those who say this is "scary" music. I think it's meant to be so. To paraphrase Stefanasha, this music portrays an awesome and omnipotent God, "prodigious, even holy and terrible" and without humanity. The God of the Old Testament before the second Isaiah.
Here's a quote from an interview with Olivier Latry: A FAVORITE OF MINE IN THE ORGAN REPERTOIRE IS MESSIAEN’S “APPARITION DE L’ÉGLISE ETERNELLE,” WHICH BECOMES INCREDIBLY LOUD. SHOULD THE AUDIENCE FEEL EXCITED? OR AFRAID, LIKE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT GOD? Latry: I hope they are afraid.
gjlander100 questions Olivier Latry's interpretation? Incredible. I should very much like to see gjlander100's list of credentials compared to that of Mr. Latry's. To my mind, amazingly insulting.
he might belive in "MP"..but not in "P" and absolutaly not in "PP".. I think he doesn't even know it exits "PPP".. But he he is a great organist and musician! Fantastic!
Okay, with no response yet to my previous comment here, and my having drawn a complete blank in looking elsewhere to find who is the copyright-holder of this video and the contained audio, I've slept on this matter and I think in the circumstances it would be legitimate and make best sense if I allow two weeks from now for Erik to respond, and then, either with his approval or continued lack of response I'd post my version of this video with enhanced audio on my own channel, linking back to this version here for comparison and of course common decency. Actually, if there's any difficulty about contacting me through YT, I can always be contacted via the Contact page on my personal website - www.philipgoddard.com/contact.htm . I hope that helps.
The score does not say pianissimo at the beginning, in fact it begins with forte and builds to a quintuple forte during the climactic C major chord. And regardless of the dynamic markings, have you seen the beginning stoplist for this piece? With that many ranks engaged it's impossible to get the organ truly quiet.
Here's the audio-enhanced version -- czcams.com/video/bbnJGIhxo6c/video.html I've now satisfied myself that having the enanced-audio version of this video posted on my channel would not adversely affect the channel - I'm simply not able to monetize it, but I'm not eligible for monetization anyway. Please note that it needs a playback volume 3dB higher than for this original version, because of the repaired clipped peaks. My apologies for yesterday's doom and gloom through getting confused about the presumably false Content ID claim by Latinautor. As I now understand, for my own purposes with that video it makes no odds who claims to be copyright holder, for any monetization proceeds would simply go to whoever's claiming to be copyright holder, and unless a copyright holder objects to the presence of the video on my channel (which I doubt would happen, and in which case I'd promptly remove it), there should be no problem.
EDIT - the problems I had with compression were listening on a particular system/browser. It’s absolutely fine on my main monitors and on my big B&W speakers. SO IGNORE---> I’ve listened to your version and it’s really horribly compressed. Don’t know what you were thinking! The bass notes at the beginning compress the sustained chords each time they sound. And the dynamic range is overall severely limited in your version. Your version does a disservice to both this recording and Messiaen’s score!
@@MarkHarmer That's odd. I didn't compress it at all - just improved the stereo imaging, and indeed slightly expanded it because I repaired the clipped peaks in the main climax, and so slightly reduced the level to accommodate that. I've just listened to it again, and I dont't at all hear what you report. Don't know what's going on there!
@@philipgoddard-composer I like that the stereo image is expanded (and the fffff passage is clearer than the original, but I will check on my other system re the compression - it sounds like something odd is happening).
I used to play this piece so I know the musical material of it and Messiaen's chord progressions. I find in this performance that the sheer volume of growling sound completely obscures all that. So the result is that I wonder what I have been listening to.
This is a stunning work. Riveting performance. However, Messiaen's score asks for pianissimo at the beginning and end. The whole work is a tremendous crescendo to double fortissimo and then diminuendo, with a pulsing pedal part all through. Does Mr Latry do pianissimo? I suspect he yet has grow into that. He will be here in Auckland next week. We shall see.....
The original version calls for "pianissimo" - which however is NOT the effect that's really intended, especially with the stops ordered to be drawn either for immediate use or "'prepared' for later" (as would be in order for an extant Cavaillé-Coll or equivalent instrument of that period). That's why the revised version specifies "forte", so that even while a quasi-"pianissimo" effect is intended (VERY important with a big Romantic-type Swell division at full or nearly-full strength, with the box CLOSED TIGHT), one still understands that the sonority is nevertheless "forte" in actual fact.
If you enjoyed this you'll also like Resurrection from Livre du Saint Sacrament, a more dazzling and lesser known piece than this, which is a little muddy really
PS I don't know what Messiaen actually meant by "Apparition" but I would guess that "vision," which tends to imply a sight of beauty would probably be a better Enlish rendition than the literal cognate word "apparition," which tends to imply a more ghastly ghostly sight, thus "Vision of the Church Eternal." Also the literal "Church Eternal" vs "Eternal Church" is perhaps better, putting the emphasis on she who belongs to CHRIST, HIS Chosen/Elect Body, vs emphasizing her less important eternal character. Soli Deo Gloria!
+Russ Davis "Apparition" can probably also be rendered "emerging" or "appearing" of the eternal Church, since the piece starts out small, becomes gigantic and ends where it starts, thus suggesting infinity.
I disagree. If he had meant "apparition" to mean "vision," then that's the word he would have used ("vision" being a French word, too). As the music conveys, it is a rather immense and scary apparition, as well.
Many years ago, somebody wrote while analysing this very piece for an article in "The American Organist" about its resemblance to Debussy's Piano Prélude "La Cathédrale Engloutie" (Book I #10). Although the Messiaen piece is simpler in that regard, it still has the same basic build-up from "pianissimo" to "fortissimo" and back down at the end (and is explicitly stated with Debussy as having the same sonority, the same feeling as the beginning of the piece).
As great as the "fire " of this organ sounds id rather hear this piece at St Sulpice or Rouen where the Full organ isn't a total screaming noise. Id like to hear it on an organ that Messian had in mind.
Then go to La Sainte Trinité in Paris: the Beuchet-Debierre expansion of the original Cavaillé-Coll was done exactly as Olivier Messiaen intended, with all the tonal and other work meant to completely respect the Cavaillé-Coll High-Romantic basis of the instrument (built in 1868, if I recall correctly) as the untouchable, unalterable foundation. Any and all new stops added on top thereof were - and are - meant to harmonise with that basis still remaining in its original condition and voicing. Whatever was added had to be voiced to go along with what was already there, NOT the other way around or anything much (if at all) in between. That's why you get, for example, the original Cavaillé-Coll Grand-Orgue Plein-Jeu V continuing to be like that division's "Fourniture" (basic mixture-stop of the division), with the subsequently-added Cymbale II-IV meant to build upon it in addition to both mixtures building upon the foundational stops at 16', 8', 4' and 2' below. Similar observations apply to the Pedal Plein-Jeu IV, the Positif Fourniture IV and the Récit Cymbale III, not to mention the other stops included (even with the partial enclosing of the Positif as a second enclosed division on the organ not available hitherto). All his registrations specified towards the end of Messiaen's life - e.g., in the "Livre du Saint-Sacrement" or in revisions of works like "L'Apparition de l'Église Éternelle" or "Le Banquet Céleste" - explicitly reflect these wishes of his.
So misguided you two, gjlander100 and erikheijkamp. In French organ music, the symbol "pp" only ever means swell box firmly shut. It has nothing to do with what stops to use. In Messiaen's score, it does call for full swell (less the cornet or mutations, curiously) at the beginning.
For it played with the score, see youtube. com/watch?v=sUgm1Pp_l9Y It's Latry there too, but though it's a bit too fast here for some reason there he plays it (wrongly) even faster.. I have a recording of it with the master, Messiaen himself, at his beloved Trinity in 1956, 10:17. The length of performance time should resemble the title, eternal! Both Latry (~9) & Alain (~8!) sadly play it far too fast, infected by our godless age of pell mell hell, hurry scurry; the holy takes time.
Harry Sings But the actual performance time is just a bit over 10:00, about 10:02, vs Messiaen's 10:10. Not a GIGANTIC difference I grant, but the entire piece as a whole has a similar less hurried pace & focus with Messiaen himself vs all the others I've heard play it.
Latry should play this at the day Notre Dame will be reopened. Fluctuat, nec mergitur!
Hear, hear Benedikt, I hope he does. Very fitting.
I agree!!! I think he should play this to!!
Indeed, but this is YEARS away....
Indeed. How true though are the reports the organ was unharmed in the fire? Seems more than impossible, it would be a miracle.
It's funny to read that, because it is with this work that Olivier Latry began the inaugural concert after the very important restoration of 1990-1992, on December 4, 1992. The grand-organ was thus "revealed" for an amazed audience... "Inoubliable" !
If you hear this in a cathedral its like basking in the full intensity of the sun.
Bloody heck, I need to get to Paris and hear this organ live!!!!
Hope you made it there in time, it's kinda out-of-service now for a spell.
@@rotunda57 But thank God it pretty much survived the fire. Unfortunately, it might be ten years before we hear a sound from this most glorious of instruments.
Quelle chance ils ont de pouvoir entendre cette merveille à Notre Dame de Paris. C'est vraiment une expérience inoubliable.
Un chef d'oeuvre très bien jouè.
I've Heard many interpretations of this over the years. This one is, Oh Wow!!! Love it
Messiaen is so magnificent on the right organ and place. This is so beatfully done. Thank you, Olivier !!!
I'm very much looking forward to the glorious day that Latry plays this organ again. I will be there to hear it
Contre bombarde 32'!!!! Latry, the best!!
Pour ceux qui discutent l’interprétation, sachez que les partitions d’Olivier Latry sont annotées de la main même de Messiaen... just listen and learn
Il n'est nullement question🤨😶🙄 de "discuter"l'interpretation, il s'agit de savoir si on "apprecie"Olivier MESSIAEN🌹🇻🇦✝️🇨🇵🌹 ou non.....peu importe si les partitions sont "annotées"de sa main ou non😶🙄🤨!!!!!beaucoup n'accroche pas au "monde musical"de l'organiste de la TRINITÉ🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢 !!!!!!!
Wow - enjoying this here on my set of JBL4300 series monitors and subwoofer. Just wow - and I SO love that French organ sound with its splash of mixtures and wonderful reeds. I have played this piece myself but never on a French instrument, but M Latry gives the piece a wonderful unity and I love the pace and the registrations.
I hear ya!...hello from Austin, Texas
I first heard this piece in my 20th century music history class at university this past semester... Easily my favorite piece that I learned from that class! Haha, this is GREAT.
I find it quite amazing that any could question the performance of one of the world's greatest organists, Olivier Latry. OK, so YOU might think it a bit "fast", or whatever. Do you not for one moment believe that the maestro considered what he was playing, where he was playing and for whom he was playing on that day? If you're not considering that, shame on YOU, not on Mr. Latry, whose performance here is utterly flawless.
I pity those so enslaved as to be unable to question; small wonder we're experiencing western civilization's nadir. In terms of accurate interpretation of the work, no one can reasonably consider Latry to be a greater performer than the composer himself, the basis for my comparison, and I'm sure Latry himself would disagree with you, as self-effacing as I've heard him to be.
Your type are ten a penny Russ. Reminds of the RNCM. Those who couldn't play spent their lives bitching about those who could, under the guise of the 'scholarly' authenticity debate. Latry is a genius. End of.
Typical bigoted hypocrisy.
Messiaen is a greater genius than Latry as Latry would agree; you aren't. End of.
RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
C'est par cette oeuvre qu'Olivier Latry a commencé le concert d'inauguration du grand-orgue de Notre-Dame après deux ans de silence, en décembre 2012. La "progression" jusqu'au Tutti a été un moment totalement exceptionnel, comme la "fermeture" d'ailleurs. J'attends que ça recommence !!!!!!!!!!
je vous suis totalement. Cette progression , lente et profondément majestueuse évoque une foule en marche, celle de l'Eglise éternelle pour Messiaen, qui vient des ténèbres jusqu'à occuper totalement la scène (tutti général) , puis se retire lentement jusqu'à disparaitre comme elle était apparue. Cette pièce est profondément évocatrice, comme bien souvent chez O Messiaen (Les Corps glorieux, la Nativité...) . Croyant ou non en l'Eglise éternelle, l'auditeur est pris aux tripes. Comme dans certain passage similaire, incroyablement lent qui n'en finit pas, de "2001, Odyssée de l'Espace"...La richesse des sons du GO de ND apporte beaucoup : bombarde / contre-bombarde évoque chez moi l'immensité de la foule de cette église éternelle, les anches et chamades signent la magnificence de cette foule des "saints". Et quelle richesse harmonique, amplifiée par la propagation du son dans Notre-Dame, à n'en plus finir. C'est porteur de sens de manière inouïe. Et O Latry sait parfaitement rendre tout cela. J'aurais aimé être présent ce jour là. Pour info, cette "Apparition de l'Eglise éternelle" a été retenue pour illustrer l'assemblée des saints cette année au Mont St Michel, dans le cadre des noctures d'été avec mise en scène audio-visuelle époustouflante, dans différents endroits du Mont. Messiaen, c'était dans le réfectoire des moines, avec des projections sur tous les côtés, montrant partout l'assemblée des saints faisant face au public, présentée assise sur les bancs du réfectoire. D'autres évocations musicales ( Requiem de Mozart, Pie Jesu du Requiem de Fauré, etc...) se situaient ailleurs dans le cloitre du Mont tout illuminé, ou dans la basilique à peine éclairée. Moments magiques, et je crois que c'est l'enregistrement d'O Latry qui a été retenu pour Messiaen. Tout cela va bien au delà du "plaisir" musical.
I totally follow you. This slow and profoundly majestic progression evokes a crowd on the march, that of the eternal Church for Messiaen, which comes from the darkness to occupy the stage totally (tutti general) , then slowly withdraws until it disappears as it had appeared. This piece is deeply evocative, as is often the case with O Messiaen (The Glorious Bodies, the Nativity...). Whether or not a believer in the eternal Church, the listener is caught in the gut. As in some similar, incredibly slow passage that does not end, from "2001, Odyssey of Space"... The richness of the sounds of the GO of ND brings much: bombardment/ counter-bombardment evokes in me the immensity of the crowd of this eternal church, the reeds and chamades sign the magnificence of this crowd of "saints". And what a harmonic richness, amplified by the propagation of sound in Our Lady, never to be finished. It makes sense in an unprecedented way. And O Latry knows how to make it all. I would have liked to be there that day. For the record, this "Apparition of the Eternal Church" was chosen to illustrate the assembly of saints this year at Mount St Michel, as part of the summer nocturnals with stunning audio-visual staging, in different parts of the Mount. Messiaen, it was in the monks' refectory, with projections on all sides, showing everywhere the assembly of the saints facing the public, presented sitting on the benches of the refectory. Other musical evocations (Mozart’s Requiem, Pius Jesu of the Fauré’s Requiem, etc...) were located elsewhere in the cloister of the Mount all illuminated, or in the basilica hardly illuminated. Magic moments, and I believe that it is the recording of O Latry that was retained for Messiaen. All this goes far beyond the musical "pleasure". ...(Sorry for eventual mis-translation...)
The positive ions radiate through my rippling soul as I shield my eyes to the solar wind belching from the pipes during the intergalactic quintupleforte hold...blitheringly laughing my heart out like a little child who's just seen the Lord in all His Glory...SCREAMING IN SHEER JOY OVER MY SUDDEN INDUCED RAPTURE!!!!!
To view this merely as portraying the so-called Wrathful Old Testament God is a disservice to Messiaen's theology. This is the Vision of the Eternal Church, and so I think it's more an invocation of the Apocalyptic vision seen of John, of the Son of Man returning as he left, descending through the clouds in holy majesty. We may call it "Terrible," but we may better call it "Awful," in that the divine vision fills us with Awe. Dissonant and minor chords resolve themselves into powerful fifths and major chords, and I see this as evil and terror being washed away in the Final Judgment, which is not only the final victory of God's justice, but His mercy and love as well. It is the consummation of the marriage of Christ to His Church, the wedding banquet of everlasting love, the Eternal Worship of the Lamb, an occasion not of mere cowering, but of raucous and attendant joy, for it is like "Terra Tremuit": It ends in "Alleluia," the proclamation of joy in the Lord.
This was far longer than it needed to be lol.
On the nail!
No it was not too long at all! Wow. SO well said. I just discovered this piece yesterday and your explanation just made me fall in love with it even more!! Thank you for such a thoughtful theological response.
On the nail? Indeed, if you swallow trinitarian theology in all it’s sado-masochist irrationality.Meditation upon 2nd Thessalonians Ch 11: V 2 and a deity who’d nail his son, who is actually himself, to the cross for sins he knowingly made possible in the first place may cast some light on the cosmic horror of this conception, none of which however detracts from Messiaen’s glorious illustration of such horror and moral perversion.
Sorry, that quote should read 2nd Thessalonians Ch 2: V 11.
@Dissily Mordentroge No one needs your bigotry while trying to enjoy this music.
The chord held on at 5.26 is awesome.
This is the only place in this piece where a full major C chord is played. The rest of the chords are missing the 3rd note, so only sound 1-5-8. Weirdly mysterious, and neither major or minor.
It’s marked fffff in the score!
In a church or cathedral this piece can be stunning.
Un morceau lugubre et ténébreux qui rend hommage à l'église splendide et éternelle du Tout puissant construite par ses créatures - Etrange et solennel et qui valut en son temps à son créateur les foudres de ses paroissiens. Quel étrange paradoxe !
You hardly survive this music! It needs a big organ, a big church, and a marvelous player. Here all this is there.
I love mystical music!!
C'est littéralement renversant !
On pourrait être foudroyé par une telle puissance...
J'espère avoir un jour l'occasion d'entendre cette oeuvre jouée à Notre-Dame.
fffff
Basic study of French Organ performance practice will show Messiour Latry is doing exactly what the score says.
Accès immédiat au Ciel !
The decrescendo totally satisfied me and was even an epiphany of the piece to me. Yay, both Messiaen and Latry
I think this is the only Messiaen piece I could play. When the sky parts for the Second Coming, this is the music you'll hear, so y'all better start behaving. Meditative, transcendent, powerfi;/ I envision a gothic cathedral rising out of the water.
Mistico,potente, straordinaria invenzione musicale, timbricamente perfetto, grazie a Latry e soprattutto a Messiaen.
Perfect music to perceive the mysteriousness of our current times!
goosebumps!
Messiaen never fails to deliver thanks to Latry
Read excerpts below from various sources online. If this doesn't sound like the building of a "church eternal" that has gone through hell (see, Dante), I don't know what does. It's if it were written for the rebuilding of Notre Dame.
"Programmatically, the piece describes the appearance of the eternal church, which then fades away. This imagery has been compared to Dante's description of the inferno.
Messiaen described the piece by quoting from the hymn Cœlestis urbs Jerusalem: "Scissors, hammer, suffering, and tests, tailoring and polishing the elected persons, living stones of the spiritual edifice", stating that the throbbing bass depicts the incessant work of construction. He also wrote the following poem:
Made out of living stone,
Made out of heavenly stone,
It appears in heaven:
It is the Lamb's bride!
It is the heavenly church
Made out of heavenly stone
Which is the chosen's souls.
They are in God, and God is in them
For heavenly eternity!"
Thank you for quoting the poem. Nothing about hell or Dante or inferno, although it is severely serious and prophetic. I love the work and love playing it on huge instruments for an audience that can handle Messiaen's "vision."
I almost expected the candles to be blown out during the 5x "fortissimo" parts à "Schlafes Bruder".
Or the other way around, turning on the lights at the C Major 5x Forte chord, and then blowing out them with the following diminuendo till the end.
Congratulations for the camera too. ;)
@glander100. Sounds to me like he's following the registration as Messiaen wrote it. This is pianissimo for this instrument with the swell reeds pulled. Compare it to the fffff at the climax. BTW, Latry was Messiaen's primary student, so he should know a thing or two about these works.
Poignant...encore d'avantage quand on sait combien Olivier Latry vénérait le grand Messiaen
I want to be there!! Some acoustic waves will never pass via digital tools.
Ottima esecuzione allright! On the level of Pierre Cochereau.
I think this is performed as Messiaen intended. The audio is OK for a mobile phone, there are better quality recordings on YT.
...I agree. particularly with the space the music has to fill.
Transcendental interpretation ... ...
ÉCOUTEZ PLUTÔT LE GRANDISSIME MAÎTRE ORGANISTE PIERRE COCHEREAU💮🌼💐🦁 (1924-1984) interprété Olivier MESSIAEN🥰🌿🪢📚🔎🪅🎶🕊🌺⛑🧭🍒🇻🇦🌹✝️🌹🇨🇵💮🥰💐🕯🇦🇲🍋🇲🇬🌸✒📃🍒📚🎶🌻💒🦁🌍🪢🌼🌸🙋♂️ !!!
You are correct. The beginning here IS pianissimo, compared to what's coming. Stereo language and organ language are not always the same.
God, the sound of these screaming pipes is loosening the mortar in the vault stones...lol... beautiful! I just can't imagine being there and hearing this.
Basses to make techno green with envy
Heaven!
Well, two weeks having passed, I tried uploading the enhanced version of the video, but after a rather long wait, processing was abandoned, just with a message saying it couldn't be processed - but no reason given. I can only guess that it may have been flagged as a duplicate post. - So it looks as though I probably can't post this enhanced version after all. -- Pity.
Retry please we will all thank you !!!
@@EU-xn6kl - Thanks for your encouraging words. At the moment I'm having a pig of a time trying to work out why processing of the video is being consistently abandoned, with no reason given except "CZcams couldn't process this video". I'm wondering if it's some bug on YT rather than anything wrong about the video, but am now going through a series of experimental uploads with different video track and with different audio track. The trouble might be some setting that's got corrupted in my video editor (Shotcut) - might need to uninstall / reinstall it. The enhanced video plays fine in VLC, so I know there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
Perfect tempo
Très bien.
...magnificent.
I think Christ would be again sad hearing that heard sound, of course not sad of the sound but the human world.
C’est beau comme la non-rétractabilité des serres des oiseaux rapaces; ou encore, comme l'incertitude des mouvements musculaires dans les plaies des parties molles de la région cervicale postérieure !
if the churches want to get more people in THIS is how to do it !!! religous organ by Messian, dupre, bach and others !!! wine and top class bread afterwards!! the churches would fill !!!
He doesn't play pianissimo. But however, het started with full organ with swell. It sounds great and misterious. Have a nice concert!
Score asks for full organ, mixtures, and reeds, box closed. That's not going to be ppp on anything that's not electronic.
The ppp is box closed.
WTF??!!! -- Having struggled through doing various wangles to work round whatever technical glitch was causing my audio-improved version of this video to fail to get processed, through a circuitous sequence of manoeuvres late this morning I finally managed to upload that version at last to my channel, and have it accepted - I then keeping it as a private item until I'd be satisfied that it was okay to make public. -- Whoopee!!
EXCEPT, there was this: www.philipgoddard.com/messiaen-apparition-latinautor-claim.png .
Yes, there's a surely BOGUS effing copyright claim on it by the notorious Content ID scammer Latinautor!
I have no time to go contesting such a claim, when it isn't on one of my own works - and, let's face it, I don't even know who owns the copyright for the basic material in this video, so, sorry to disappoint, but I can't have that on my channel.
However, I'm keeping the enhanced video on my local system for the moment as an MP4 file, and the enhanced audio file as a flac file. So, it's open to Erik or anyone else who is going to act responsibly and would like to risk a problem with latinautor, to contact me, and I can upload the video or just the audio to my OneDrive space and send the person a download link for it. ***PLEASE DON'T CONTACT ME JUST FOR A LISTEN!*** - This is only for a public-spirited individual who would be posting it on YT and either run the risk of getting hit by scumbag Latinautor or go through the trials of contesting Latinautor's claim - and the latter option of course would require one's knowing who is/are copyright holder for both video and audio.
I really think that's the best I can offer now. It's truly shocking and shameful that YT routinely allows these content ID scams to operate and cripple the work and often livelihoods of decent law-abiding individuals.
indeed, he doesn't play pianissimo, and according to the score he isn't supposed to. He should play forte in the beginning, with a full (closed) swell. This is exactly what Messiaen wrote.
Absolutely stunning - as if Latry's 'official' recording of this work (i.e., the one on CD) isn't stunning enough!
However, I've experimentally quite dramatically improved the stereo imaging of the audio of this (soundstage width, and overall clarity and detail, and with all clipped peaks repaired), but legally can't do anything with that without express permission of video and recording owner(s), and I want to keep entirely legitimate.
Erik, I wanted to private-message you about that, but couldn't find a means to do so, because I do think this wants posting in addition to the presumably relatively raw version of the recording presented here. Would you like to PM me so I or you or another relevant person can get something moving about this?
If you would be so kind I would absolutely LOVE to hear your cleaned up/improved version of this recording. From one organ enthusiast to another it would be such a treat. This piece, played on This instrument, is pretty much peak pipe organ LOL 😎🙌❤️
@@JD-oq4od,
Just to repeat from an earlier post of mine here, it's at czcams.com/video/bbnJGIhxo6c/video.html . Happy listening!
Messiaen saw God!
Messiaen thought he did.
Maybe he did, the vengeful, capricious, unpredictable sadistic God of the Old Testament. Certainly not a loving God. In saying this I'm not trying to take anything away from the staggering brilliance of the composition.
Dissily Mordentroge try reading the Bible again, this time the whole thing, in context
Biblical studies have been one of my pursuits for some decades. 2nd Thessalonians Ch 2.V11 comes to mind but I’m sure you’ll manage to place that in a context that won’t undermine your theological pre-conceptions.
For my edification and education, where is this fact stated? (I do not have any doubt at all.)
Wonder if anyone's noticed this: The audience seems literally petrified. That's spooky.
Maybe "awe-struck" would be a better term? :-)
I like the lady looking back at the pipes at 5:50 in disbelief.
Although when ive been to French Cathedral recitals ive been really struck by how quiet and attentive the audience have been
Enthralled would be the word I'd use.. This is one powerful composition. I think there might be only a handful organs or organists that could perform this piece of music and do it justice.
How many decibels for a pianissimo?
How many dB here?
I agree with those who say this is "scary" music. I think it's meant to be so. To paraphrase Stefanasha, this music portrays an awesome and omnipotent God, "prodigious, even holy and terrible" and without humanity. The God of the Old Testament before the second Isaiah.
Here's a quote from an interview with Olivier Latry: A FAVORITE OF MINE IN THE ORGAN REPERTOIRE IS MESSIAEN’S “APPARITION DE L’ÉGLISE ETERNELLE,” WHICH BECOMES INCREDIBLY LOUD. SHOULD THE AUDIENCE FEEL EXCITED? OR AFRAID, LIKE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT GOD?
Latry: I hope they are afraid.
this is one scary-ass piece of music
gjlander100 questions Olivier Latry's interpretation? Incredible. I should very much like to see gjlander100's list of credentials compared to that of Mr. Latry's. To my mind, amazingly insulting.
Spooky but Magnificent
There's a whole crowd of people who won't be sleeping easy tonight.
he might belive in "MP"..but not in "P" and absolutaly not in "PP".. I think he doesn't even know it exits "PPP".. But he he is a great organist and musician! Fantastic!
Okay, with no response yet to my previous comment here, and my having drawn a complete blank in looking elsewhere to find who is the copyright-holder of this video and the contained audio, I've slept on this matter and I think in the circumstances it would be legitimate and make best sense if I allow two weeks from now for Erik to respond, and then, either with his approval or continued lack of response I'd post my version of this video with enhanced audio on my own channel, linking back to this version here for comparison and of course common decency. Actually, if there's any difficulty about contacting me through YT, I can always be contacted via the Contact page on my personal website - www.philipgoddard.com/contact.htm . I hope that helps.
talk about "caged Rage"!!
The score does not say pianissimo at the beginning, in fact it begins with forte and builds to a quintuple forte during the climactic C major chord. And regardless of the dynamic markings, have you seen the beginning stoplist for this piece? With that many ranks engaged it's impossible to get the organ truly quiet.
absolutley agree and also on a very large instrument you will not go wrong
EARPHONES PLEASE!!!!!!!
Where can I find this organ sheet music?
Here's the audio-enhanced version -- czcams.com/video/bbnJGIhxo6c/video.html
I've now satisfied myself that having the enanced-audio version of this video posted on my channel would not adversely affect the channel - I'm simply not able to monetize it, but I'm not eligible for monetization anyway.
Please note that it needs a playback volume 3dB higher than for this original version, because of the repaired clipped peaks.
My apologies for yesterday's doom and gloom through getting confused about the presumably false Content ID claim by Latinautor. As I now understand, for my own purposes with that video it makes no odds who claims to be copyright holder, for any monetization proceeds would simply go to whoever's claiming to be copyright holder, and unless a copyright holder objects to the presence of the video on my channel (which I doubt would happen, and in which case I'd promptly remove it), there should be no problem.
EDIT - the problems I had with compression were listening on a particular system/browser. It’s absolutely fine on my main monitors and on my big B&W speakers.
SO IGNORE---> I’ve listened to your version and it’s really horribly compressed. Don’t know what you were thinking! The bass notes at the beginning compress the sustained chords each time they sound. And the dynamic range is overall severely limited in your version. Your version does a disservice to both this recording and Messiaen’s score!
@@MarkHarmer That's odd. I didn't compress it at all - just improved the stereo imaging, and indeed slightly expanded it because I repaired the clipped peaks in the main climax, and so slightly reduced the level to accommodate that. I've just listened to it again, and I dont't at all hear what you report. Don't know what's going on there!
@@philipgoddard-composer I like that the stereo image is expanded (and the fffff passage is clearer than the original, but I will check on my other system re the compression - it sounds like something odd is happening).
I used to play this piece so I know the musical material of it and Messiaen's chord progressions. I find in this performance that the sheer volume of growling sound completely obscures all that. So the result is that I wonder what I have been listening to.
Who are you?
@TrombaMilitare16 EXACTLY!!! AMEN!
This is a kind of music composed by Angels floating over 5th essence celestial sphere.
This is a stunning work. Riveting performance. However, Messiaen's score asks for pianissimo at the beginning and end. The whole work is a tremendous crescendo to double fortissimo and then diminuendo, with a pulsing pedal part all through. Does Mr Latry do pianissimo? I suspect he yet has grow into that. He will be here in Auckland next week. We shall see.....
The original version calls for "pianissimo" - which however is NOT the effect that's really intended, especially with the stops ordered to be drawn either for immediate use or "'prepared' for later" (as would be in order for an extant Cavaillé-Coll or equivalent instrument of that period). That's why the revised version specifies "forte", so that even while a quasi-"pianissimo" effect is intended (VERY important with a big Romantic-type Swell division at full or nearly-full strength, with the box CLOSED TIGHT), one still understands that the sonority is nevertheless "forte" in actual fact.
And the climax is not just double Forte, but quintuple Forte!!
If you enjoyed this you'll also like Resurrection from Livre du Saint Sacrament, a more dazzling and lesser known piece than this, which is a little muddy really
PS I don't know what Messiaen actually meant by "Apparition" but I would guess that "vision," which tends to imply a sight of beauty would probably be a better Enlish rendition than the literal cognate word "apparition," which tends to imply a more ghastly ghostly sight, thus "Vision of the Church Eternal." Also the literal "Church Eternal" vs "Eternal Church" is perhaps better, putting the emphasis on she who belongs to CHRIST, HIS Chosen/Elect Body, vs emphasizing her less important eternal character. Soli Deo Gloria!
+Russ Davis
"Apparition" can probably also be rendered "emerging" or "appearing" of the eternal Church, since the piece starts out small, becomes gigantic and ends where it starts, thus suggesting infinity.
I disagree. If he had meant "apparition" to mean "vision," then that's the word he would have used ("vision" being a French word, too). As the music conveys, it is a rather immense and scary apparition, as well.
That's your interpretation, which is certainly valid. I don't see it that way, but fortunately, music is very open to interpretation.
Many years ago, somebody wrote while analysing this very piece for an article in "The American Organist" about its resemblance to Debussy's Piano Prélude "La Cathédrale Engloutie" (Book I #10). Although the Messiaen piece is simpler in that regard, it still has the same basic build-up from "pianissimo" to "fortissimo" and back down at the end (and is explicitly stated with Debussy as having the same sonority, the same feeling as the beginning of the piece).
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As great as the "fire " of this organ sounds id rather hear this piece at St Sulpice or Rouen where the Full organ isn't a total screaming noise. Id like to hear it on an organ that Messian had in mind.
Then go to La Sainte Trinité in Paris: the Beuchet-Debierre expansion of the original Cavaillé-Coll was done exactly as Olivier Messiaen intended, with all the tonal and other work meant to completely respect the Cavaillé-Coll High-Romantic basis of the instrument (built in 1868, if I recall correctly) as the untouchable, unalterable foundation. Any and all new stops added on top thereof were - and are - meant to harmonise with that basis still remaining in its original condition and voicing. Whatever was added had to be voiced to go along with what was already there, NOT the other way around or anything much (if at all) in between.
That's why you get, for example, the original Cavaillé-Coll Grand-Orgue Plein-Jeu V continuing to be like that division's "Fourniture" (basic mixture-stop of the division), with the subsequently-added Cymbale II-IV meant to build upon it in addition to both mixtures building upon the foundational stops at 16', 8', 4' and 2' below. Similar observations apply to the Pedal Plein-Jeu IV, the Positif Fourniture IV and the Récit Cymbale III, not to mention the other stops included (even with the partial enclosing of the Positif as a second enclosed division on the organ not available hitherto). All his registrations specified towards the end of Messiaen's life - e.g., in the "Livre du Saint-Sacrement" or in revisions of works like "L'Apparition de l'Église Éternelle" or "Le Banquet Céleste" - explicitly reflect these wishes of his.
@@LJBSasha um, you know your 5h1t!!
So misguided you two, gjlander100 and erikheijkamp. In French organ music, the symbol "pp" only ever means swell box firmly shut. It has nothing to do with what stops to use. In Messiaen's score, it does call for full swell (less the cornet or mutations, curiously) at the beginning.
and Almutt Roessler.
C'est qui les 13 qui n'aiment pas
Des cons.
For it played with the score, see youtube. com/watch?v=sUgm1Pp_l9Y It's Latry there too, but though it's a bit too fast here for some reason there he plays it (wrongly) even faster.. I have a recording of it with the master, Messiaen himself, at his beloved Trinity in 1956, 10:17. The length of performance time should resemble the title, eternal! Both Latry (~9) & Alain (~8!) sadly play it far too fast, infected by our godless age of pell mell hell, hurry scurry; the holy takes time.
Awkward cos the length of this video is 10:21...
Harry Sings
But the actual performance time is just a bit over 10:00, about 10:02, vs Messiaen's 10:10. Not a GIGANTIC difference I grant, but the entire piece as a whole has a similar less hurried pace & focus with Messiaen himself vs all the others I've heard play it.