Why We Love Purposely Imperfect Writing
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
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I lost it completely when she felt the need to defend the watch she stole.
I thought he'd compare that scene to Will Smith's boring, generic relationship with his daughter in the first film. Hollywood parenting v London parenting- nice to see Elba being pure Hackney in a big American film!
It's one of my favorite lines from the movie lol
That is what sold the movie to me.
legit always makes me chuckle
It is such a real line, I can totally picture a real person using that to explain themselves. CX
"Here's dialogue's that neither realistic, nor believable"
*ad starts*
Perfect timing 🤣
perfecter
CZcams knows what's up
I feel like having imperfect dialogue makes a film feel more realistic. Nobody says everything perfectly or for a reason. Saying something random or out of character is just a part of life
Part of that is right but it can’t be too obviously out of character. I feel the imperfections need to live in the delivery. What I mean by that is the actors need to slip in a bad pronunciation of a word once in a while to make it feel real
On the side, too much painstaking recreation of the imperfect vagueries of life and you end up with a 3 hour mumblecore movie
I partly agree, mistakes and imperfections are part of everyday life and are being portrayed in movies as well, but it shouldn't feel too forced or serve as an excuse for "sloppy writing". Suicide Squad overall maintained a great balance so it does work within the story.
Not all the time but I get your point. Thriller, mystery, drama and psychological movies are some examples of films that heavily rely on precise dialogues. Nolan, Tarantino and Fincher films are some that I can think of that really needs "perfect" dialogue.
This is Katana. She's got my back. She can cut all of you in half with one sword stroke, just like mowing the lawn. I would advise not getting killed by her.
In Suicide Squad, the Turn to Heroism was Silly and dumb
In THE suicide Squad, the turn to Heroism felt So fucking Real and Genuine
It was more personal - Starro legit said you guys are not leaving til you join my army essentially - they kind of had to fight whereas in the original it felt like only Rick Flag had a real stake in fighting
@@kwekueghana3683 Well... Starro didn't said that. He just leave them alone and went to conquer the city. And Waller even said: "You can go now, or I'll literally blow your brain out". And they still chose to be heros and maybe/probably die in the process.
I still think it's dumb in both. Like, why would they not listen to Waller and fight Starro? She would just blow their heads and they would die for nothing. There was no way for them to know some random person will knock Waller out.
@@blyzer7373 then you clearly missed the point.
The movie painstakingly showed you that all though they were criminals, that doesn't mean they rotten people to the core.
So they CHOSE to try to save the day, knowing that if they died, they died doing the right thing, and sometimes that's enough for people.
It has Nothing to do with the fact they "knew" they wouldn't die, because like you said, they couldn't have known that.
@@zaczane So they were just dumb? Okay gotcha.
The scene between Deadshot and his daughter was pretty much entirely improv. The actors knew where to start and where the director wanted to take it, but the screaming came from the actors. The young actor playing the daughter said she was kind of shocked to find herself screaming "Fuck you!" over and over at her idol, Idris Elba!
That was Bloodsport, not Deadshot.
I really thought you were talking about Will Smith.
Yes. "Deadshot."
Deadshot lmao
Most of the time, theres not a whole lot of "improv" in movies. A scene could take a dozen takes or have breaks between filiming moments of it. Improv would be really hard to do for an extended scene like that
I really, really preferred this suicide squad to the old one, I actually felt something. Especially that one line, "rats are the lowliest creatures my love, if they have a purpose, so do we all"
Like, everyone prefered the second movie over the first one.
@@magallanesagustin4952 as they should
ngl my mans but this scene alone made me sob
@@magallanesagustin4952My mom didn’t.
We don’t have the same taste in movies.
The Suicide Squad looked like it was a lot of fun to film. Far from a cinematic masterpiece, yes but it certainly was entertaining from beginning to end
I mean, I would say it almost is, even if you look at it from a technical standpoint, all the characters were great, the story was sick, there was character progression for the ones that needed it and the scenes were done really well while having a light hearted tone at some points and switching inbetween serious and goofy with ease so I wouldn't say it's a masterpiece but I wouldn't say its far from it either
@@rossg4641 nah, theres definitely subpar writing in there, not enough for it to ruin it tho
@@bigjawline9235 idk I hear this a lot and I even looked for it in my second watch but I couldn't see it. I feel like the movie doesn't have any major flaw in any department to hold it back. If anything the only thing holding it back would be the movie itself (stylistically and in terms of tone but I absolutely love it so in my eyes it's pretty close to perfect)
@@bigjawline9235 What would you even consider subpar writing in that movie? They had a clear plot, characters with story arcs, callbacks to earlier dialogue, and clear roadblocks to their eventual goals that helped them grow as characters. Maybe specify a direct quote of the film that you think is subpar?
How is The Suicide Squad “far from a cinematic masterpiece?”
Everything about it is excellent: the humor, the visual effects, the costumes, the acting, the sound design, the music, the sense of genuine fear for every character in it, the pov opening that perfectly establishes the premise, stakes, and tone of the movie, the character writing, the Peace Maker twist that was brilliantly foreshadowed by a line that felt like a throwaway joke at the time (when Waller first introduces Peace Maker with identical characteristics as Bloodsport, and Bloodsport points out that she said every team member was chosen for their unique abilities.)
That scene in suicide with Milton didn't serve for absolutely nothing like you used here as an example though. It showed that Polkadot man is growing and starting to care for other people.
Also, it set up a joke later with the name, just as the ass joke from Avengers. Which was equally useless to the plot of that movie, by the way. A very weird point when both scenes work the same in structure.
And it also shows that the rest of the Squad are still, despite their growth, all still assholes who don't care about anyone else in their immediate social circle.
@@romxxii everyone in the squad eccept ratcatcher and polka dot man are desensitzed to death, plus they didnt really know milton people dont feel strong emotions towards people dying they dont know
@@malcomchase9777 huh?
@@JoshuaWillis89 Capt America's ass, that really is America's ass
....
Just watch the movie
A lot of youtubers and even critics like to fetishize technical quality of works, but its like you said. Too strict of rules following actually works against making characters and world feel real.
That's actually true, principles and limitations are helpful for creating a structure of your story, but without the right amount of creative freedom the dialogue and characters might feel too generic or even artificial. What you really need to structure being your creative ideas and how to make them appeal more realistic. That's where you draw inspirations from everyday life and humanities imperfections.
I once went to watch a stage play just like that : everything was timed to the second. Probably a swiss watchmaker's wet dream ; but the most boring stage play i've ever witnessed. I only found solace that night by finding out precisely how much time i had to endure. . .
blindly, religiously following a formula of what theoretically makes art good will never end in anything memorable. The (metaphorical, but also nowadays literal) industrialization of art will be the death of it.
The technicals are very important in filmmaking. Nobody would say The Room is better then 12 Angry Men for metaphorical reasons. Dialogue is a part of character, saying something out of character is better describe as revealing their real character under specific circumstances or without the need to filter themselves. There is also saying things that don't make sense for their character. Imagine if after almost successful allowing an invading alien force to destroy earth, a few days later he says 'They are leaving all these people behind' +sad face+. Incongruous with what we know of the character. That is very different to the progression of events being imperfect. Cause and effect can't be tarnished for the sake of your emotional pay off. It could very easily drag people out of the experience if a character falls a great distance, doesn't die and falls through more floors atop a pile of floors only to land in front of someone about to kill someone important. The smaller bullets pay off was great, saving ratcatcher 2, Peacemaker decisions are all great writing but, plot armour of that magnitude is awful.
I think it’s the classic you have to learn the rules and understand them before breaking a few to make it special
"This is why people normally don't cough, unless it serves the narrative."
4:29 *a man is literally dying*
*a child* is literally dying
A psychopath is literally dying.
@@richardsantanna5398 can you really blame him? His uncle was his dad and his mom killed his..uh, other dad
One of the most satisfying scenes period.
I’m sure the Seven Kingdoms cared just as much.
“Here’s dialogue that’s neither realistic nor believable” - ad plays
Well, ads are neither realistic nor believable. 🤣
John Cena's trembles and pauses after some of actions were just perfect. The nonverbal dialogue was on point as well.
I love how you used a clip from "The Eric Andre Show" when discussing how real conversations work, considering how otherwise batshit crazy the show is.
I absolutely love how Harley Quinn is being developed. She has grown from dependence on Joker as seen in the start of Birds of prey (not telling people they broke up to use his protection) to being strong enough to handle her own in pure chaos
Yeah, i only wish that we could have seen her as the Jokers girl/partner/sidekick?. We have never seen her working with the Joker ever in live action. It kinda undervalues her independence if we have never seen her working as the Jokers #2.
I haven't seen anywhere near enough of her being with the Joker to actually appreciate the "development" it was just kinda straight outta the gate.
i just sees this new DC as this .a different universe and this harley quinn has a dfifferent JOKER not jared leto shit .bill skarsgard the guy who played pennywise can be JOKER i think
@@j.fragoso7451 In my head canon, suicide squad (2016) is basically what Harley is with joker: a sexy fidget spinner, fun to fiddle and good to look at. But besides that, almost no substance
Yeah no. There's no development. She's just written horribly in Suicide Squad, and Birds of Prey, and not written horribly in THE Suicide Squad.
"This is Katana she cuts laaawwnns with her soul" is something I haven't been able to stop saying at that dumb line since I saw it
The movie's dialouge did flow really well. Most of the time, I felt they like me and a group of strangers would talk to one another that way. Or how when Viola Davis talks to the suicide squad, her tone sounds tired and annoyed (best part). It all felt good and was hilarious
"Yes, Nanaue, that is your hand."
@@tadpolegaming4510 "Think there's any connection?"
"............ *No* "
It was funny
I really needed this as someone who writes fantasy. I try to go for serious undertones while having my characters be light-hearted expressing that even though the state of the world is horrible they are innocent and shouldn’t be by products of the tragic everyday.
Constantly comparing myself to more established works I felt sad I was still writing this story when I originally wrapped it up last year, but hearing there’s a magic in imperfection really gave me confidence. Thank you!
That sounds great! I think I do something similar to that as well, and it still feels really cohesive. The overall plot and themes are absolutely serious, but my three main characters provide a surprising amount of levity in their downtime. They don't try one-upping each other with constant quips like a Marvel movie, it's more like their differing sensibilities brushing up against each other resulting in organic "punchlines," incredulity and amusement. They all had their upbringings stolen from them early, so they're all desperate for family and care about each other. I don't undermine the intense serious moments with jokes obviously, but I allow the heroes to enjoy each other's company. They like to unwind and tease each other when not fighting, possibly even try to cheer each other up when things are looking grim. It's...natural!
@@RacingSnails64 Loved this feedback this approach is what I enjoy about dialogue it may not be the most conventional but it helps set the tone for my story. While allowing interactions to not feel dated with the rest of my story. I really enjoyed this response.
@@AeroBlastX775 thanks for reminding me not to be too uptight with myself with writing. We are our biggest critics, and sometimes we can't help but compare ourselves to the ones already published. And it's hard on the self esteem sometimes.
@@jans.g6033 Always a difficult task but ultimately we write for the fun and the passion of it! Worry about everything else later in these first initial phases simply put words on a page. Tie together all those emotions, experiences, and luggage we carry daily and set them ablaze. We’re definitely our number one critiques so it’s nice to take a step back and not burn yourself out with the disaster of comparison. Believe in your book and it’ll believe in you!
When done right, imperfections in movies and books are great. A break from the conventional stuff and has the potential to become almost a genre of its own
I'm kind of surprised you didn't mention Iron Man (2008). It was a very loose production, and various cast interviews confirm that most dialogue was made on the set. The consequence of this is the film had very naturalistic dialogue for a Marvel film, which is interesting because that style is (as you mentioned) largely absent from most subsequent films in the franchise.
I wouldn't say largely absent. If anything, Iron Man's success meant that dialogue from Avengers and onwards would tend towards flippancy and irreverence. They didn't adopt the full riff style, but Tony never stopped snarking, and frankly, neither did anyone else. Even Ultimate Straight Man Steve had to drop the "I know, I know" when his past self gave the ol' "I can do this all day" one liner.
If you're thinking about writing a dialogue in a fantasy setting, and don't want to sound like tolkien (not a diss, just a creative choice), run a Dungeons and Dragons session involving similar circumstances. Guarantee you'll have some fantastic naturalistic dialogue, or at least inspiration from it
This is an underrated note! I will expand this to say getting folks to do improvs might be more accessible to folks without tabletop experience or a player group, but if you can do the D&D route, oh goodness do. Players get into their rolls, but are just... not perfect... in a sometimes hilarious, sometimes touching way.
You're just saying that because you want someone to DM for you.
@@matthewparker9276 Jokes on you, I AM THE DM
Thats scene assuming what kinda dog weasel is got me. I couldn't stop laughing, every next line and deli every was better than the last
I will always love how you never tell people what to do with their writing but you share careful guides as examples and I think that’s needed a lot more. Especially when talking about something as subjective as creative writing.
Just like how he you shouldn’t stay constrained by rules and tips, you shouldn’t be constrained by styles. I like how he doesn’t say naturalistic is better. It all depends on what you’re making. The context, character and tone.
Finally, an analysis of The Suicide Squad that feels passionate but still genuine. Great stuff all around.
The Suicide Squad: a redeeming superhero film full of charm and character, disguised as a bad sequel!
The cutting off of your voice right at the end is the perfect end to this video. Imperfection, making it all feel more real.
"N-no, Morty! T-th-the only real monster here, is alcoholism." *belches*
😂🤣😂 Gawd damn that was funny.
Nice choker
@@richardsantanna5398 L
I think The Big Lebowski also embodies a lot of the randomness and chaos of actual people actually speaking just in the first scene where parts of the conversation go nowhere until they find a point with the rug to settle in for a while...
Ya know, The Suicide Squad (2021) is one of the funniest DC movies, but it is also about how US interventionism (especially Contras), Project Paperclip, and attempts of mental control (such as MKULTRA) were all atrocities and "killing as many people as needed to keep the peace" (as Peacemaker wishes to do) is absurdly dangerous.
James Gunn is a liberal. They don't believe in mkultra
@@Frogman1212 MKULTRA was indisputably real. We just don't all believe it was run by aliens or that Charlie Manson was a Manchurian Candidate.
Yeah that.
@@Frogman1212 What? How does that follow?
@@MP-ue7ol Typical alt-right style stupidity.
"Stupid plot, fun experience." That was my opinion upon watching the movie.
Here's an example of dialog that is not believable, at all:
Google: Let's insert a couple ads real quick
Wooboy... That was a good laugh.
It happened to me to and it fit perfectly lol
He chooses where the ad goes, that was the joke
@@exzyyd392 I dunno if that happens all of the time, buy yeah makes sense for chapters. I've definitely had more ads play when watching through my TV compared to my phone though.
You know a film is embodying those naturalistic moments when you see the club scene, with its part-awkward moments and part-funny and genuine moments and relate to similar moments you've had yourself with friends and such. Like the scene when they tease Polka Dot man for getting buzzed. I mean its very different from the cliche scene in 2016 Suicide Squad meant to be a break for the characters to establish their arcs before the big battle.
I’ve watched this film four times now and it hasn’t decreased in quality. I know it’s easy to bash on DC films, however, I feel like when they knock it out of the park it’s next level. I wish studios would let creators create, allow them to do what they were hired for.
One of my favorite lines in the film;
Rick: who the fuck ate the last empanadas?
Bloodsport: I did...had the chicken
Heightened language is peak human communication. It’s the product of people having enough clarity of mind, flexibility, and confidence to immediately respond to a given situation in a calculated way meant to illicit a particular response.
I think James Gunn's writing is where he shines brightest. He really understands interpersonal relationships and how people talk/fight. A good example imo is when Peter and Gamora are fighting in GotG2 and Peter is willfully ignoring/dismissing Gamora's warnings about Ego by trying to deflect to "Cheers" and Gamora turns back just to shout "I DON'T KNOW WHAT CHEERS IS!" I've had that type of fight, the one where I try to walk away but I just HAVE to turn around and say something, even if it's nonsense.
"The Implication" is some of the greatest dialogue every put in a TV show, let alone any media.
Low-key, you're one of my favorite film/writing analysis channels on CZcams, and you deserve way more attention/subscribers that you already have. The way you focus on specific aspects of movies, your sense of humor, the sheer passion you have for writing and editing in general - it's like candy to a creative-writing nerd like me. In short, you're amazing, take care of yourself, and keep doing what you love, my man.
Y'know, this topic makes me think of professional wrestling. The best wrestlers can handle a microphone and sound natural, "dialing up their personality to a 10" while delivering dialogue that would seem silly or unbelievable coming from others.
17:33 *Polka-dot man can imagine a 400 foot tall Kaiju-Karen*
Man, I don't know in which type of dialogue this statement falls
So that's why the DardevilvPunisher rooftop scene is so great. It felt like a real argument. They're both interrupting each other and stutters sometimes.
"Here is dialogue that is neither realistic nor believable"
"Well in many ways the Big Boy never left, sir. He's always offered the same high quality meals at competitive prices."
9:37 “Here is dialogue that is neither realistic or believable” *ad plays*
9:33
"Here is dialogue that is neither realistic nor believable."
*Cuts to an ad*
*I burst out laughing*
I particularly love Weasel's dialogue.
He brings out all our emotions and thoughts without saying a word.
No matter how you speak or in what language, behind the facade we're all like him... (◠‿◕)
The dialog sounds like a group of roleplayers roleplaying which is what im convinced writers rooms are now, just the writers playing DnD and converting their games into scripts
Some of the early dialogue scenes felt like something out of The Office and I was surprised at how well it worked 😂 it was freaking hilarious. Even the camera work seemed similar with the shakier camera/quick zooms.
I can think of two effects that naturalistic dialogue has:
1) It is kind of a fourth wall break. By writing naturalistically you acknowledge that the writing before was not how people talk.
2) It creates extra believability. By writing naturalistically you have the viewer move away from the lense of viewing a movie and instead move him towards the lense of the real life.
9:37 Personally I figured this was Flagg blustering. He knows he's surrounded and outnumbered by vicious supervillains who would happily shank him the first chance they get. So he was trying to convince them why attempting that would be a bad idea. They found him not at all intimidating, but that's appropriate both for their characters and for his.
He's obviously blustering, it's just unnatural and stilted.
"Comedies that have based their entire identities off of dialogue, seemingly snatched from real life"
When I tell you I was already quoting Always Sunny in my head before you showed it...
Afghan Hound is the best punchline of 2021
Is it not "Purposefully" , not "Purposely" or... Oh wait the title is a typo _ON PURPOSE_ !
That's genius, whoa
I love everything about The Suicide Squad, it has so much Heart
hearts getting stabbed, shot out, spat on, and Emotional Heart
"The suicide squad manages to hit a similar tone to (guardians of the galaxy)" I mean... they are both directed and written by the same guy
Great video. I'm glad you brought up Rick and Morty; it's a naturalistic dialogue linchpin, though I'd say it's an interesting case as it pushes the naturalism to the stylistically unrealistic.
This film is one of the best sequels I have ever watched.
Man, I love everything you put out. I can't wait to see the next video!
Wow this was a surprise to see for sure! Thank you for the vid and look forward to using your services in the future!
I've been awaiting a video so eagerly, this sounds like a Perfect topic
My favorite example of Naturalistic Dialogue is a movie called Isle Of Dogs (a stop motion movie by Wes Anderson)
All of the scenes feel slow but it’s so great when characters start interacting, making subtle reactions to what each character is saying, small stutters, etc. It’s so natural and perfect. We get ZERO info for a plot but we get info about the characters, their personalities or how their lives were before the events of the movie.
This was an awesome video. Gonna check out your other stuff for sure!
That was a great video and analysis about dialogue, keep up the amazing work!
Yet another beautiful take on this film. I still can't believe that I've seen it 3 times. Awesome work SB 👏👏👏
Hey just to let you know the Silicon Valley dialogue wasn’t just believable but realistic. I think I’ve had that conversation.
Very informative. Thank you!
Ironically there was a second thing that I just noticed between the three examples used near the beginning: the music design for the scene… the music of the two older DCEU sound hokey/silly to signal the coming punchline… while the suicide squad clip didn’t use the music to signal the humour, just let the dialogue do all the work.
Gunn's proven he can use music and score when and where it counts.
@@romxxii agreed
so glad you did a deeper dive into what made that one scene between idris elba and his daughter so compelling. they only shared like one scene, i think, but it was so good that it believably drove his motivation for the rest of the film! i loved it
What a brilliant analysis of dialogue in film! Just enough to leave me wanting more. Plus the misspelling in the thumbnail makes it literally "imperfect dialouge". Just perfect.
I love that you left the blip at the end of the audio in the video
Truly masterful, endearing touch
God, what a video! Opened my eyes to the existence of my own favorite style of dialogue. It's so frustrating not having the words to describe something, but you managed to do it masterfully.
Fantastic critique and review of what makes fantasy real life for us, the viewers. Great analysis and look forward to many more!
Making the distinction between those three qualities of dialogue is really helpful! Dialogue is something I need to work on and the way you explained the differences really helps! Thanks!
This was a fantastic video! I love how you break a topic (dialogue in this case) down layer by layer. I wanted to make a video on Suicide Squad but couldn't figure out what to say. You nailed it so I'm glad I didn't even try lol
This was such an interesting and amusing video and I love it
I love this video. It so high quality. I’m hoping to get my content on this level. Thanks for inspiring me.
Thanks for this video. It made me realize that I tend to writing naturalistic dialogue and I thought I just couldn't write properly, but now I see it's just different.
Technically there is no incorrect way to write, there is only writing that will be good and writing that will be bad
@@chinsaw2727 I mean that's basically what I wrote but thanks I guess?
Love your channel. Great info.
Man, this was a mindblowing video.
It emphasized things I already understood at a base level of writing, but put them in practical terms.
I feel like this is also why improvised scenes are often the funniest / most memorable
Oh he said it nvm I hadn’t finished the video yet
Great video thanks!
This really helped me with my writing style! I thank you!
9:33 I like the ad placement here
"Peacemaker on his own has more personality than the 2016 cast."
Huh, I guess that's why he's getting his own series.
I've been feeling this way for the longest time but didn't know how to explain it. Well done
Naturalistic dialogue otherwise known as “mumblecore”
I’m glad you put in the Harley & Polka exchange about Milton because David Dastmalchian is the whole reason I even watched the movie
So glad you nodded to Inglorious Basterds here... when I think of uncannily perfect dialgue that film is by far #1. I love that the last line was something like, "...this might be my masterpiece" because it is a true masterpiece in writing. Never gets old
One of the best channels in terms of genuinely propounding knowledge and showing the many nuances of writing.
I loved this movie so so much. It helped me during a hard time and it gives me so much inspiration
Interesting stuff man
Yes savage... Not a min, more like months but still love your videos. 👍
Great and informative video as always Savage! And on the subject of dialogue: I always wondered what's the right way to nail comedic dialogue in written media as I feel that so much of the comedy comes from the actor's delivery. I often write dialogue that feels funny to me but I'm not certain if the reader will find to be as funny because they might imagine a completely different delivery.
Thank you. Truly, truly truly. Thank you.
i just came here to say that i'm not a writer, i've never even tried to write anything, i simply enjoy your videos so much, you have completely change the way i watch movies and tv shows!
Ngl, especially being exposed to it as a kid, I immediately bought into the prequel dialogue and would class it as believable whenever I listen to it.
imperfect dialogue can make a scene perfect
Loved this. The quality of your video essays are crazy high. The analysis is thorough and you have a talent for making difficult concepts more digestible.
Suggestion: Have you considered cutting to yourself talking to the camera whenever clips from the source material aren't needed? Otherwise it inevitably ends up being a lot of the same clips repeated unnecessarily. Showing yourself on camera also helps build more of a connection with the viewers.
Insightful breakdown of the types of dialogues. I'd be interested to see an analysis of Armando Iannucci's dialogue style. Veep, In the Loop and The Thick of It have some of the most natural dialogues I've watched.
The piece of media with the best dialogue, in my opinion, is the tv show Psych, especially the dynamic between Shawn and Gus. Look up "Psych, Legal Consultants" the scene is pure gold.
I love that show, but honestly sometimes Shawn and Gus talking over each other can get a bit much. It still works for me because usually the punchline to their dynamic is Gus getting a bit of breathing room to do/say what he wants, then immediately flubs it after a beat, leaving Shawn to swoop in with a quip.
@@romxxii Just cause you put syrup on something don't make it pancakes.
Great video man, I'm-I'm subscribing right away, y'know
Liked as soon as I saw the Fantastic Mr Fox reference. Seriously though, this was a great video