The Truth About the Smash GOAT Debate
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- čas přidán 12. 05. 2023
- Who is the greatest of all time or the GOAT in Smash Bros Melee? Is it Hungrybox? Armada? Mang0? Let me know in the comments who you think it is!
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#smashbros #smash #melee - Hry
Who do you think the GOAT is?
Hgod
@@LucasSyrup him seeking out for sponsor money he’s getting into the scene makes him the goat 😂
Ppmd just for having that tag
S2J is the scorned god
@@pilotmagus3303 nice 😂
Damn 82 of 119 is actually wild
I said the same looking over his tournaments. What the hell man
@@JeramiJoseph I had to pause the video to think about it for a second lol
Mango is more comparable to LeBron, where the longevity and over all body of work is what keeps him in the conversation. Armada is more like Jordan, where he had a comparably shorter career, but had a more consistent reign of dominance while he was there.
That’s a really great comparison
I like this comparison
this comparison doesn’t work because Jordan is the best player to ever play Basketball, which is why he’s the GOAT. Prime Armada would get bodied by any top tier player currently competing, so how can he be the GOAT? He’s not the best to ever play.
@RetroEternal There is no evidence to support that, he quit before we could find out.
@@jonwind3383 Armada is Ken 2.0 - just like Ken before him, he dominated his era but eventually became outclassed by the eras that followed. Armada retired nearly HALF A DECADE AGO. The game, meta, & skill level has evolved so much with slippi - everyone is so much more cracked than they used to be. You can’t deny that, that’s facts. That is evidence to support that. Anyone in the top 25 would BODY prime Armada. Mango is the GOAT & Hbox is 2nd. Zain may finish the GOAT or 2nd depending on how his career unfolds and if his dominance remains.
It’s definitely still armada, any excuses is just coping from mango Stans. He’s close but you don’t have to make any excuses for armada like you do Mango, and Statistically he is still on top.
Armada also lost to Amsah (the Dutch Sheik player) at Pound 4 in Losers Semis. He was technically the last non-top 6 player to beat Armada until Swedish Delight.
Why don't people talk about that loss when they mention Armada's consistent record stats? They always say "From Silent Spectre to Swedish Delight" for some reason.
Oh man I didn’t know this! What year was this do you know?
@@JeramiJoseph It was Pound 4 in 2010, the same tournament SilentSpectre got his set win on Armada in winners. Amsah would beat Armada later on in top 4.
@@RainWasTaken damnnnn I had no idea! This is really cool to know! Great point that no one talks about it wtf
@@JeramiJoseph Right? SilentSpectre’s win always got a lot more publicity because he was just such an unexpected player to beat Armada. But I want people to remember Amsah too; that guy is a beast
this man says ronaldo is the goat. Somebody check him pc, this not normally.
I know nothing about soccer 😂
@@JeramiJoseph It shows!
@@JeramiJosephMessi > Ronaldo easily lol
Going purely by the numbers, you have to give it to Armada. It's only when you start including less clear factors that it becomes more of a debate. I do think it's nice that we get to have a debate for Melee though. Ultimate doesn't get to have fun with that kind of discussion thanks to MKLeo lol
Yeah it’s always a fun but somehow cut throat debate lol. Some people love getting real into it when it comes to the goat debate.
If going by the number Hbox has around twelve more major wins then both mango and armada, AND more years ranked as 1st.
Armada has higher dominance, Hbox has higher success.
@@AL-lh2ht Hbox has 2017-19 plus arguably 2010 as #1 for four years in total, while Armada has 2011-12 and 2015-16 for four years total #1 as well. With that as a tie, you could look at years as top 2, in which case Armada would come on top. You're right about total # of majors though, though there would still be a difference when looking in more detail at the size/stacked level of some of those majors, as well as overall win %. Even looking only at numbers is not that straightforward.
What's Armada and Mang0's record in terms of head to heads?
@@oldschoolhistory3246 28-21 in favor of Armada
Just found your channel and bingeing through it. Great videos on the amazing history of Melee
That’s awesome! Thank you so much 😄 lots more coming real soon
Cool video
Your channel popped in my feed recently, and I can't get enough. Huge respect to your dedication to reading+replying to comments that I've seen on many. many of your videos.
I don't pay attention to smash much since 2016, but the lore/continuing stories and legacies are always interesting to hear about. Thanks, Jerami.
Thank you so much! So glad you’re around watching and supporting ❤️
Messi is definitely more widely considered the goat than Ronaldo, and it isn't close
I thought it was the other way around! I know there’s debate there, but tbh I know nothing about soccer lol
@@JeramiJoseph lmao
The truth is the Goat is just the top 10 player with the most charisma/public approval
@Gladius it's definitely true, people won't say Armada because you root for home, im Snglish so obviously I root for Armada.
Even then my favourite player is HBox but there was a long period where people detested this man an unreasonable amount. Even now he isnt considered hype or anything so people won't say him.
Hence why Mang0 wins, most popular with people, champion of the USA and plays hype.
Def has a factor 👀
Armada has by far the highest dominance that is impressive even compared to greats in other sports
Hungrybox has like twelve more major wins then both mango and Hungrybox and has more years ranked 1st. And has the highest average yearly ranked period.
Armada is the most dominate and Hungrybox is the most successful player.
Mango is behind both and has not been ranked number one since 2014. It takes a lot of cope for anyone to say mango is the goat.
@Gladius what detestable things has Hbox done?
@@Ecstasy404 only thing that comes to mind is looking at players controllers for seeing their di other than that people always talk about t
"These things" hbox has done but never mentioning them I genuely really curious for I'm a part of this community for like a decade and have never heard a proper explanation
This is not complicated.
Armada = by far highest dominance
Hbox = most major wins and most years ranked 1st.
Mango = best propaganda (he has not been ranked 1st since 2014)
mango was ranked and regarded as the best player in 2021. he was also considered the best player in the world in 2008 and 2010, and the person who made retroSSBMrank now thinks that it is wrong. so mango has like 6 years as number 1
I dont think you've been playing too long nor watched the video. Mango's strongest argument for dominance is longevity. He was also ranked #1 from 2008-mid 2010. And 2021 he was considered the best. He's also just straight up been better than Hbox as of this decade.
@@yeah2646 Online results don't count. Furthermore, his years of dominance before 2014 have nothing to do with the fact that he hasn't been ranked first in 9 years.
@Zion even going by offline results in 2021, mango was pretty firmly the best player even if there were no formal rankings. Also are you the real zion lol
@@yeah2646 Even if we ignore the fact that 2021 was an incomplete year in which most of the few offline tournaments that were held were invitationals based on online results and consider whoever had the most wins from August to December the best player of that year, Mango's offline results still don't favor him because Cody Schwab was the best player of 2021 in that regard. He won Riptide and Smash Summit 12, and placed second in the Smash World Tour NA East Regional Finals whereas Mango won once and only placed in the top 2 one other time, which was when he was beaten by none other than Cody Schwab at Smash Summit 12.
And no, I'm not the real Zion lol, just coincidence
For me Armada is the GOAT, there is only a debate because he retired and Mang0 is still competing, but just look at the numbers, he was unbeatable, his constitency was crazy
Thing is, he did retire. Mango is still adding to his legacy
@@jakefromstatefarm6969His legacy of losing to Fizzwiggle and smurfing and supermajors lol. Armada's legacy is impeccable, whereas Mang0's is anything but.
@@diek_yt i mean the goat argument really comes down to what you personally value, and there's no objective method of assigning the value of each characteristic.
How much do you value longevity?
Is it better to be consistent or have high peaks and low valleys? Should poor performances be negatively valued or neutrally valued.
How much does it matter what era you played in?
In my mind armadas consistency is much more valuable than mangos up and down performances.
Armada loses ground due to not playing in the most difficult era, but part of the increase in game quality is due to the controller changes and can't be considered a knock on him.
Armada loses ground due to not playing for as long as mango.
Depending on how someone personally weighs each quality, you could have differing results.
I think mango definitely had the best argument by the end of 2014.
I think by armadas retirement at the end of 2018 he definitely had the best argument.
In the 5 years since then, Mango and Hbox have both been adding value, through being successful in the most difficult era, through playing for longer, and for adding some more top level years to their resume, especially mangos 2021 and hboxes 2019.
I've thought about goat arguments a lot, especially in the context of baseball, and in many sports there are multiple players with logical valid arguments.
Personally I value consistency a lot so armada would be the goat in my view, but the era adjustment as well as longevity has made the argument close. If someone felt longevity was more important than I do, it would make sense for them to pick mango.
My view could be changed depending on the actions of hbox and mango in the future, as well as the new legends like zain, but as it is, it's armada but it's closer than it's been since 2017.
Armada was one of the few, if not the only one in his time, to have a winning record against Mang0
I've heard an argument for Armada that he was this dominant with a character that was considered mid at the time, or that needed more skills to fully utilize, while Mang0 or Zain are using top tier characters
a lotta people didn't watch Melee before the doc which is a shame (been following the game since 07-08), because i feel like they lack proper context for how dominant mang0 was for several years before his reign as #1 from 2013-2014. yes he's had longevity (he's still winning supermajors), but he's also had extended periods of dominance to go with that that i don't think most newer players/fans understand.
Pre-Gods area is meaningless. I can't even watch videos from then because the meta sucked so much. They are seriously boring to watch.
I just can't see mango as the goat when you compare his stats with Armada and Hbox
They def have some insane stats. Especially armada 😂 mango has the longevity with being on top and that’s what Carry’s him in the convo
So Armanda was more consistent and was #1 for longer
And hbox is more consistent and has been #1 for longer
But mango is the goat……
You say mango is Tom Brady or mj? No mango is Peyton manning or magic Johnson. Definitely in the conversation, but doesn’t have the consistency to compete with armada Or honestly hbox
Dude mango abused hbox til 2015. You’re talking out of your ass
@@sareem8844Hungrybox is VERY close to having a winning set record against Mango.
looking at stats it's still armada... every other option is borderline delusional! no, i don't care about mango's longevity until he takes number 1 for a full year again :) ! at least you guys have to admit that if armada came back and did well for a few tourneys there should be zero debate after that
I think mango’s longevity has a huge role on his. He had 2 big reigns and still plays on top to this day. Plus his extra half year reign at the 2nd half of 2022. Def can see another mango year which is wild
Sure let's look at Armada's stats. What's his head to head vs Leffen and Hbox? His h2h vs Mango doesn't show dominance either except for maybe 2 years. Sure Armada was incredibly consistent but is that really important when he literally spammed Peach D-Smash to the top his entire career? So you value consistency and I value dominance and longevity. What's his record vs Zain? Oh we will never know because he retired to protect his legacy... That's your GOAT right there, quitting when competition gets tough.
@@chuifongtam4703 i hope your life is okay, brainlet
Great video. Inb4 your channel blows up like it deserves to!
Thank you so much! Means a lot hearing stuff like this
armada the boat, mango the goat, hbox the float
There was a 22 month period where Mang0 basically never lost a set. The idea that Armada's dominance is dramatically distinct compared to the other Gods is not an accurate depiction of reality.
Armada's head 2 head set counts from liquipedia:
Armada vs Mango: 29-21
Armada vs Hbox: 33-19
Armada vs Ken: 2-0
Armada vs M2K: 26-7
Armada vs Leffen: 40-25
Armada vs PPMD: 13-8
Armada vs Zain: 3-0
Armada vs Plup: 9-2
Armada vs aMSa: 4-0
Armada vs Axe: 12-0
Armada vs Wizzrobe: 7-0
Armada vs Chu Dat: 6-0
It’s Armada and it’s not even close. He’s even two years younger than mango, he streamed played iBDW a couple years ago during Covid and it’s obvious he could still dominate today
after this vid ive never been more convinced its Armada
For real haha. I kept telling people that he won more than 50% of the tournaments that he entered over his whole career, but I had no idea how much more than 50% that it was lol.
Yeah, more convinced it's Armada when he literally just dominated for 2 years and was extremely consistent then quit when the competition got tough. What's his record vs Leffen in the last 2 years of his career? Your GOAT is a coward. My GOAT (Mango) is still out here competition for his fans for 20 years, that's real GOAT sh-t.
@@kode-man23 Ok so you value consistency, but I and many other fans don't care about that.
OH Jerami, you should ask chatgpt who the goat is. Its hilarious. It will try and be unbiased but it will heavily favor mango. Last time I messed with it. It said Mango won 5 evo titles. It said he won 13,14,15,16,17... It legit was just making up wins for mango but not armada. Which was interesting.
Anyways a video idea I thought of recently was the history of mango's puff. I was trying to figure out when mango last used puff as his main in a tournament. I was looking for either all puff or mostly puff tournaments and I couldn't find a clear answer.
This is hilarious lol. I could have asked it at the very end 😂😂
@Gladius well, chat gpt is more or less the culmination of the internet's views and opinions on things, no? Everyone in the smash community knows mango, but I wouldn't be surprised if some newer players don't know about armada. And even those that do seem to downplay armada, saying he was playing in ancient times and acting like he would've fell off if he continued playing as if he would exclusively be affected by meta changes (despite many top players who continued playing after his time staying relevant). Conversely, mango gets talked about with constant adoration, every major win seemingly contributing to the GOAT argument even with many mid and terrible performances inbetween.
What Armada could never win over was the zeitgeist. He was always too low key, too humble, too boring, frankly, to be remembered for anything more than his outstanding record. It's like that old csgo meme goes:
is it me or is olofmeister a bit of a boring player
like u see it at the end of the game "oh wow olof has 32 kills" but u can never remember them.
can u remember a single olof kill ?
but try guardian...u can see the flick i remember a guardian flick.
You could probably figure out who would slot in for who in the context of melee.
@@scouthatesrainbows That is not remotely how chatgp work lol.
@@AL-lh2ht then explain how it works. I presumed it was a mixture of aggregated data and pattern recognition, hence why it spouts out opinions and ideas that can sound reasonable at a surface level
Armada is the most consistent of all time, I think Mang0's longevity and staying at the top in the current era overall puts him on top but you could say in both their prime Armada was the more consistent player for sure. Hbox also deserves to be in the conversation. It's insane how much better these three players have been than almost everyone else for such a long time. An underrated topic here is how Zain is currently putting himself into this conversation, as he's been top 2-3 since late 2019 and has probably won the most tournaments since then.
Yeah I totally see both arguments! Oooo zain in the goat talk would be super sick. But he has yet to win a tournament from losers. Can’t wait to see that happen
@@JeramiJoseph I think it’ll happen eventually, but yeah he seems to be a player that has to win from winners usually
I can't respect a p-ssy (Armada) that retires just when the competition is getting stronger just to protect his "legacy" of dominating for like what? 2 - 3 years? That's just some coward sh-t, Retiring because he knows he can't keep up with Hbox, Mango, Zain, Leffen, ect.
Meanwhile, Mango out here winning majors for 20 years and reversed 3-0 Zain, probably the strongest melee player of all time. Armada doesn't deserve to be talked about in GOAT discussion IMO.
7:10 summer of 15 was crazy I remember when leffen for like a month looked unbeatable
He won back to back to back majors. I couldn’t believe it either!
And part of the reason why Armada isn't the GOAT, consistently losing to Leffen throughout his entire career. Getting figured out and rather than adapting, just complained about match ups, that's not my GOAT
@@chuifongtam4703man armadas got a penthouse suite in your brain lol
Armadas feats are so much more impressive than mangos its not even close, both in terms of consistency and dominance. Mango is still great, but so is hbox, axe, amsa, and plenty of other old school players. The reality is he isnt dominating and hasnt done so in almost ten years. Though due to his popularity and influence on the social aspects of the scene he will always be seen as the "goat" in some peoples minds
Uh it's not a debate, Mango is the Goat as he was dominating for a longer period of time (20 YEARS) AND IS STILL DOMINATING EVEN AFTER ARMADA RETIRED. Armada was dominant for what? 2 years? when people just ran into his lame ass Peach spamming D-smash. Armada is lame af and had almost no social media and influence on the game either. Mango's playstyle also attracts more viewers. What happened at Full House and Genesis 1,3,5? Armada got slapped. Mango obviously have lower lows but he wasn't trying during that time. This kid lives and breathes melee. He's the GOAT
Not to mention Armada got bodied by Zain like 80-20 last time they played. Armada would not stand a chance in today's meta while Mango is still competing
Wasn't Armada like 4-8 vs Leffen, 3-9 vs hbox in his last 2 years of retirement? That means people are better than him and figured out his lame playstyle that's why he retired because he's scared of losing his lame ass "title". Meanwhile Mango is still playing like the GOAT he is
@@chuifongtam4703”People just ran into his lame ass Peach spamming D-smash”
People like who…Mang0? If Armada wasn’t that good, why did Mang0 lose to him so often?
Armada has a winning record over Mang0 and essentially everyone else he’s ever played. He also has a better record against most top players than Mang0 does.
@@jordanstanford6241 Mango lost to him more often because he wasn't trying. Mango still won a major in EVERY ERA for 20 YEARS and is STILL competing.
Where is Armada now? Near the end of his career he had losing record vs Hbox and Leffen. And was dominated in friendlies by Zain. That's called being scared to compete cuz he (armada) knows he can't compete anymore and retiring to 'protect' his legacy, that's some p-ssy sh-t. Real goat sh-t like Mango still playing and winning majors.
I don't buy into the longevity point. That kind of logic would relegate Ken, the King of Smash, to outside the Top 10 of all time due to his four year stretch of dominance compared to players like Hugs, Chu, and M2K who put up great numbers for well over triple that period. I'd naturally disagree, because a four year stranglehold like that is only reserved for people like Mango, Armada, and Hbox
Mango and Hbox can keep going another 5 years and while their tournament results are largely maintained, their H2H is a mess. Hbox and Mango have lost to unranked players on numerous occasions since Armada's retirement and it eats away at claiming that GOAT status. You could theorize that Armada would struggle with the new generation of Zain, Cody, Jmook, Moky, and others, but it's only in theory, because Armada knew when to call it a career before he began to slump
Imagine if Jordan didn't return to play for the Wizards and only had his dominant years as a Bull. Imagine if Jimmie Johnson had called it a career after winning his 7th championship in NASCAR. Imagine if FOX let the Simpsons come to an end after Season 8 versus remaining on air even today. I doubt any of these instances of longevity add to these and if anything greatly detract from their legendary runs
Longevity is literally in the name -- GO-AT.
Being #1 for a period doesn't make you the GOAT. If he was absurdly dominant, sure -- he was top 3 for a long period but really only destroyed indisputably for 2(?) years and even in those years the other GOAT picks are in the same league, not far behind.
A player retiring just as the competition gets tough is the exact opposite of GOAT definition IMO. Ken was arguably more dominant than Mango and Armada but is he the GOAT? No because he played in an easier Meta.
@@attention_shopping Exactly, being dominant for 2 years (Armada) doesn't mean you claim GOAT status. I feel like real GOAT sh-t is just playing and continue to dominate as Mango has.
@@chuifongtam4703 you "feel" like--you betray your own capacity for intelligence to commit to the idiocy you were born into. it's okay, you can join us, and raise your iq by using basic logic to determine that Armada, by definition of greatest meaning the greatest at the game, is overall the greatest player of all time. Sure, you can call Mango the GOAT and say his mentality and impact mean more to you, but when people are talking about the dry, normative definition of GOAT, it is 1000% Armada.
I think you can really only have a GOAT in a situation like with Wayne Gretzky in hockey, where it's so clear as to be inarguable. In a scene like melee, trying to label one single "greatest of all time" can honestly just feel like ego stroking when there's no clear answer.
Yeah I totally see that. Just makes for good discussion when talking about melee since it’s a bit more gray area
Also, Messi for Soccer and Shohei Ohtani is on pace to be the GOAT for Baseball - I know, I know, baseball isn’t the best sport, I hardly follow it, but this dude is different. He’s by far the best 2 way player (hitting and pitching) since Babe Ruth who played in the 20s, so he’s almost universally projected to be the GOAT after a few more years of dominance.
Melee has the same problem as the NBA with the goat debate. It's hard to compare how Armada or Jordan would do with modern competition in a different metagame. Some want it to be a popularity contest in which Mango and Hbox are on opposite spectrums of that. And the rest either want it to be 100% titles/majors or 100% longevity based. Theres not going to be a consensus on it.
Wayne Gretzky is the most clear GOAT I agree. Hockey its Gretzky. Football its Brady. Basketball its Jordan. Baseball its Ruth. Soccer its Messi. Tennis its Djokovic. Melee its Mango.
Ohtani is a damn beast! @@RetroEternal
If I play darts and just accumulate Bullseye(center hits) for an infinite time, mind you I have many misses. I will be the goat? Yet, say I have an opponent that plays darts and constantly hits Bullseye at perfect accuracy. But he only plays for only one year. I would still be the goat because of longevity and not consistency?
That depends how large the difference in timeframe is between the long-time runner and the one year wonder, and how much you weight peak performance vs lifetime.
In a debate like this there will be many factors to be taken in, and people value them in various ways.
Personally if you were comparing a player that was hanging near the top for 10 years against someone having miracle run that only lasts one year, I'd go with the former. 5 years vs 1, I'd still give it to the longrunner. Gets tricky closer you put 'em
You are the GOAT for uploading great melee content! ❤
I love you. Appreciate it 😍
jerami, love watching ur vids, much love from the ph melee scene 🫶
Thank you so much! Glad to have you watching ❤️ I can’t think of ph, what region is that?
idk about 2007 M2K being that dominant, he only got first at half of the biggest tournies of the year, got 9th at the biggest tourney of the year, only won 1 of the 4 most stacked tournies of the year, and KDJ was the better player in 2007 but had a worse resume because he attended less
It’s Armada
that joke ab hbox ult performance got me
Glad you enjoyed it 😄
Armada is the Goat. Mango is obviously great and played for a long long time through all the different eras of melee, but he's never really been dominant. Hbox has had stretches of dominance, Zain has also. Armada has a positive record by some margin on every great player of the day. People question whether Armada be dominant today and it's like... of course he was. I'd say the level of competition now is where Armada was at 8 years ago - but Armada constantly improves in anything he does. Just look at his speed running.
That's not how you pronounce Messi 0:24
😂 I just went with the more popular guy lol I know nothing about soccer haha
Armada had a 69% chance of winning a tournament, but that includes a bunch of locals and smaller European tournaments. If you only include majors it's a more 40%
Played some games with you on Unranked. Nice YT channel!
Yo thats awesome! Ggs and appreciate the support ❤️
The goat is Armada. If Michael Jordan was considered the GOAT despite not compeeting many years, why wouldn't Armada be considered the GOAT? The answer is simple... "Americans" they refuse other region players to be better than them. Mango is inconsistent as of late.
"A panelist came together to decide, then chose Mang0 without any notes or explanation."
Oh, so its a popularity contest 😂
AR-MA-DA!
Were all the soccer comparisons inside jokes ? I honestly can’t tell . if they are then you got me lol
I don’t know shit about soccer. I tried my best lol
The longer Armada is retired and Mango and Hungrybox are still playing at the top Armada’s GOAT status goes down.Time should close the gap that Armada had prior to retiring. It’s been 5 years.
I feel like mango is the GOAT arguments often tell on themselves cuz they usually just write off Mango’s slumps which I think is really annoying. He has a solid case even considering his slumps and droughts, but I am just so annoyed when people act like mangos inconsistency is irrelevant. It’s not, armada and Hbox have consistency that mango never has not shown. So thanks for at least talking about his inconsistency in this video. Too many people write that off
Messi/Pele are considered the goat but other than that video is great!
One can tell that you know nothing about Football but whatever. 😂 Armada is the goat. Period. Mango is my favourite melee player but facts are facts. It doesnt matter how long he will cotninue to play when he wasnt able to produce the same numbers when they were competing at the same time with the same conditions. Thats my take.
Man's hit the Jxmyhighroller type beat
No idea what this is 😂
@@JeramiJoseph I've been inspired by the same. Big time. Cool to see someone else take a similar approach to talking about Esports
@@qmanchu super stoked you enjoyed! Appreciate the comment homie! Got some cool stuff in the works for the future 😄
ronaldo is not considered the greatest of all time, at least not widely lmao
So basically it comes down to:
Mang0 has the most longevity
Hbox has the longest consecutive stretch of dominance and it was during the most competitive time
Armada was the most dominant of the 3 during his relatively shortest time in competition
Armada is the GOAT, Hbox second, MangO 3rd
I think Armada's record being one of the sole reasons why he is the GOAT makes complete sense, however for me; Mang0 still being in contention as still being one of the best after almost 2 decades, of competing through every major era HAS to be considered whenever this debate comes up. Sure he slumps more than Armada ever did, but to me you have to factor in the years of dominance, even in the new online era, in which we are seeing more technical play than ever before.
Yeah I agree with this hardcore. Armadas record is untouchable but mang0’s longevity at the top speaks volumes
But past success should hold way less weight than current dominance. The meta and skill level has evolved so much, any player in the Top 10 would body prime Armada. Armada is Ken 2.0
@@RetroEternal Correct. Zain bodied Armada near the end of his career and Armada never brings that up lol. Past success should always hold less weight than current dominance, well said.
@@chuifongtam4703 Zain never beat Armada. Pathetic bastardization attempt.
@SleepingChimes cause armada quit just as zain wad getting good lol. You idolize a quitter just like yourself
Great video but comparisons to athletes gets messy because it excludes the role of teammates and the physical toll on the body
Everyone knows Isai wouldve been the goat if he didnt sandbag
stats don't lie, armada is the real GOAT
Doesn't stats say Armada was getting bodied by Leffen and Hbox most of his career? Yeah Armada was dominant for like 2 years and consistent for 10, but Mango is STILL competing for 20+ years and is STILL COMPETING. That's some real GOAT sh-t. You are obsessed with stats and think a quitter is the GOAT.
I was dominant in high school basketball too 10 years ago lol. Does that make me the GOAT of basketball?
@@chuifongtam4703 I like how your entire argument for every comment you leave is "yeah, all logic would tell you armada is the greatest player of all time, but the way he wins compared to others makes my tummy hurt"
@SleepingChimes armada is the most consistent player of all time you clown. He was only dominant for 2 years max. He has pretty even records vs mango, leffen and hbox overall. And didn't he quit early because he knew he was getting bodied? That's not goat mentality. He knows he would get bodied by cody, zain and leffen today, meanwhile mango still out here. Armadas lame personality doesnt help either
@SleepingChimes how did armada do vs leffen in his most recent years? 8-2 in sets in favor of leffen. How would armada fare against zain today？oh we wont know cause he QUIT. you really think someone who quits when they're losing is a goat? Someone who complains on twitter and brags about beating cody when he sucked lol
Armada needs to come back and I want to see a showdown between him, Mang0, Xbox and Zain. Also ibdw.
1. Armada
2. Mango
3. Hbox
4. PPMD
5. M2K
6. Ken
7. Zain
8. Leffen
If you're gonna put Armada over Mango, you might as well put Hbox over Mango.
It’s really just Armada’s sheer dominance and consistency vs Mango’s longevity and how he’s the representation of the community at its core
HBox is a definite 3rd and has the aspects of both of them, but just to a lesser extent imo
Yeah I agree with this take a ton.
hbox is second bro. his reign lasted longer than armadas and only got stopped because of covid.
hbox has major wins spanning a longer period than armada.
going by the numbers doesnt always determine the goat. look at tennis with djokovic. By the end of Djokovic's career he will have achieved greater records than any player before him. But youre unlikely to find tennis fans and players placing him over Nadal and Federer.
Imagine being the GOAT and having to argue and defend your case EVERY time. Imagine retiring just as the competition was getting good because you want to protect your legacy of 2 years of dominance. That's Armada, some coward sh-t.
Mango on the other hand still competition and have been a threat to win majors for nearly 20 years. That's some real GOAT sh-t IMO.
@@InfiniteEditsHD "But youre unlikely to find tennis fans and players placing him over Nadal and Federer."
Tell me you don't know anything about tennis without telling me you don't know anything about tennis.
Djokovic has winning records over Nadal and Federer, more Grand Slams, more top tournaments, more year-end number ones, more weeks at number one, EVERYTHING.
The most one can say is that Nadal is better than Djokovic on clay and Federer was almost as good as Djokovic on grass.
>Mang0 gets consistent results
wat? If he did, no one would call Armada the GOAT. Like, if Mang0 was never under third, he'd be GOAT for sure. Like from 2015 to 2019 (5 years), Hbox was 2nd then 1st. And from 2013-2018 (6 years) Armada was 2nd, then 1st, then 2nd. Both of them were DOMINANT.
It's not hard to play for a long time at a mediocre level. I believe the same year Brett Favre broke the record for most passing yards he also broke the record for most interceptions. Longevity means *NOTHING.*
And we're all so willing to dismiss Ken's dominance because the meta was pathetic back then, yet we still count Mang0's? Melee was still a new game with an unrefined meta during Mang0's dominant years. His years on top are nearly meaningless. Pre 5-Gods era melee doesn't count for shit.
Offcourse it is Armada!
WELCOME TO TUCSON
Each of the Top 3’s Pros and Cons:
Mango:
Pros:
Greatest Longevity (Top 5 since 2008)
Most Supermajor Wins
#1 in 2009, 2013-2014, 2021
Been #1 with Fox, Falco and Jigglypuff
Cons:
Most inconsistent H2H wise, missing multiple Top 8s over the years and occasionally sandbagging
Armada:
Pros
Most Dominant Player in the History of Melee
Most Consistent Player, only losing three sets to non Gods or Godslayers (SilentSpectre, Amsah and Swedish Delight)
#1 in 2011-2012, 2015-2016
Did all of this coming from EUROPE
Cons:
Shortest reign of the GOAT contenders, only being a Top Player from 2009-2018
Least Major Wins out of the three GOATS (though this could be chalked up to him being from Europe)
Hungrybox:
Most Major Wins
Longest Reign in the Modern Era
Ranked #1 in 2010, 2017-2019
Cons:
Outside of 2019 and 2015-2019, has usually been considered the worst of the three GOATS on a year to year basis
Has the lowest dip on an end of year rank of any of the three goats (Ranked #8 on the 2021 BlurRank)
Least Supermajor Wins out of the GOAT contenders
Overall I’d say it’s Mango > Armada > Hungrybox BUT Armada’s records are so strong that him being #1 is an acceptable conclusion
Actually nevermind Ken’s easily the GOAT
Yeah let’s just make it Ken. But seriously this is a nuts breakdown. Def a solid showing
@@JeramiJoseph Thanks, appreciate it! And your video was great at explaining each of their arguments as well. I just saw a lot of misinformation spreading in the comments so I thought I’d put up some more information lol
great analysis
There were no rankings in 2021.
Hbox has higher yearly ranking then Mango. Like you are straight up lying here.
In addition counting super is super sketchy and is mostly a informal term. One problem for it in examplke is for whatever reason like half of major pre 2013 counted as super majors.
I think we can comfortably call each one of them the GOTTs; Greatest of Their Times. Mango and M2K were basically children when Ken was already traveling.
For me, this is a toss up because they’re all great players
Turns out the greatest melee player of all time was the friends we made along the way
Actual based take
Wait doesn't Hbox have the record for most consecutive top 8s
That Leo comment didn't amazingly, according to power rankings at least
That ranking is just the first half of 2023 where clearly leo hasn’t been his former self. He’s even said on Twitter that he still loves playing, but competitive smash is far from his first priority anymore. Dude is cemented as the goat of that game for a long time.
Armada technically hasn't retired in competitive gaming just from esports
In 2018 the debate between armada and mango made sense but now it's just mango. Hbox has an argument to be considered for goat potential. Hell I'd probably put hbox above armada now. Which kinda pains me to say but time is a factor unfortunately and armada retired.
Hbox def over armada. I just would give it to Hbox and Mango at this point
They both have super solid arguments and I can see all sides, but mango has the longevity yeah
@Gladius I am lost. Why do you say that? Before anyone beats what? Armadas european streak?
@@JeramiJoseph mangos “longevity” is only one year ahead of being a two years being a “ranked” player and one year being a top player before Hbox become a top player.
This is not even mentioning Hbox has more years ranked 1st and higher average rankings.
Sorry dude, but Hbox is an *nattractive Jigglypuff player who is rightfully seen as the villain of the Meta. Armada is better just for playing Peach!🎉🎉
I don’t even know if that debate can ever be settled tbh… outside of stats, the majority of fans just lose it for Mang0, he’s just the kid everyone cheers for everytime and people want as the GOAT.
Can you even debate against that lol
You cant. Hbox can become the #1 player for another 3 straight years and Armada can come back and JV5 everyone in tournament but Mang0 will still somehow be the GOAT.
Mango has not been ranked 1st since 2014.
If anything, the GOAT status should either belong to Armada VS Hungrybox.
I want to say mang0 just bc you cant count him out and hes the most interesting playstyle. Armada had a lot of consistency but even when armada was 1st you could never count out a losers run from mang0. That being said he is a buster and sometimes rage quits or doesnt bother trying which can be frustrating
Reminder that mango has never been the single top player at any time and his friends call him the goat. Even 2011-2012 he was losing major sets to people. M2K has more claim to GOAT than he does.
It's okay to think Mango isn't the goat. It's not okay to lie and say he wasn't ranked #1 in 2013 and 2014.
mango was #1 in the world in 2012 as well
Jerami with another banger
Nothing but bangers these days ❤️
Messed up everything except Tom Brady being the goat for American Football, nice informative vid tho
thanks. of course hes the goat lol. who else would it be?
i could feel my blood boiling when he said L-Jordan was the goat instead of Boo Boo Bear Glorious King LeGoat James
You’re welcome
HBox -> armada -> mango
That’s my same list too!
M2K.
2007 M2K: 👀
Ngl don't love the comparison to sports just because how longevity can work. HBox and Mang0 could theoretically play for like 10 more years, which in sports just can't really be done
Another thing is, who has the most Major wins as of 2024? Like how do I just plainly look up that number? MJ is considered the GOAT because he has the most MVPs and FMVPs in the modern era. Only Kareem has more MVPs with one more, but 4 fewer FMVPs. It wasn't just that Michael did all that in a pretty relatively short time, it's that he plainly has the most accolades in the modern era. If LeBron had 8 rings with 8 FMVPs in 25 years playing, a lot of ppl may consider him the GOAT... Also this needs to be said, MJ/Brady played on teams. Melee is more like Tennis than anything.
This whole debate needs to be split up. This isn't Sports where everyone has a 15-20 year window. GOAT run of dominance can be one thing, but tbh, to me the GOAT overall is whoever has most Majors. If you retire early, I'm not gonna give benefit of the doubt. Idk how you'd fare in today's competition.
Bruh...it's a video game. Not comparable at all to high level athletes.
What is undebatable at least is that Armada is by a world the goat non-american melee player
Armada is amazing
@@gladius8825 "b-b-but mang0 is the most influential player in melee!"
-Bobby Scar, probably
The Michael Jordan comparison isn't good imo for mango. Lebron is a better comparison who also has GOAT claims, but unlike MJ who had a shorter career Bron and Mango both played and still found ways to dominate and be near the top in a more skilled era and for longer.
Armada works better for an MJ comparison due to their dominance but also shorter career.
That said Mango is my goat.
Right on! A cool way to look at the comparisons
Where is Dr Peepee?
Amazing player but in comparison to armada mang and hbox I don’t think so. He had a fantastic run, but it was also cut so short in comparison to others
That’s what the smash community has been saying for eight years lol
Mew2king is the Smash Bros goat. Armada the Melee goat.
I say mango because he used many different characters, but I respect the argument for armada too. Hbox seems gimmicky to me so definitely not him haha
I think it’s a very personal thing. For me Hbox is the goat because his channel and streams got me into ultimate and i feel he’s just a big figurehead in the smash community while mang0 kinda does his own thing for fun which is characteristic of him and to some
people may prove his goat status.
Yeah I love that perspective you have! Many are saying it could be hbox now since he’s putting so much into the smash scene right now etc. not only a competitor
If you want to talk about value to the community, commentators and TOs should be in the argument for the goat.
Armada has by far the highest dominance that is impressive even compared to greats in other sports
Hungrybox has like twelve more major wins then both mango and Hungrybox and has more years ranked 1st. And has the highest average yearly ranked period.
Armada is the most dominate and Hungrybox is the most successful player.
Mango is behind both and has not been ranked number one since 2013. It takes a lot of cope for anyone to say mango is the goat.
Mang0🐐
Goat tier list
1. Mango 2. Armada
3. Hbox
4. Ken 5. Zain 6. M2k
7. Leffen
Other contenders (unordered)
PPMD, aMSa, iBDW, Plup, Wizzy, Chu, Azen, Axe, PC
The way sounds like a good list to me! Mines probably very similar
the truth is mang0 is the goat obv lol
I think he is based on his longevity and highest peaks etc
Yeah Mango is the goat, it's not like he placed outside of the Top 8 100 times while Hbox and Armada placed outside of it once and NOTHING.
Especially Hungrybox ❤❤❤😆😆😆
He’s def up there as a contender
@@JeramiJoseph Hbox has the most major wins and most years ranked 1st.
Objectively Hbox is the most successful melee player in the world.
I don’t know if Melee Supermajors can be compared to Super Bowls, World Cups and Nba Champions to Melee Supermajors
I‘d find the much more appealing argument for Mang0 to be the fact that he is a top 2 player still at this point in time.
He got ranked 3rd for 2022 but he very well could have been second. He will be lower ranked for 2023 but Mang0 was inarguably top 2 during the online era aswell. Given that he has now been competing for 16 years and having 5 more years than Armada his longevity is starting to come up as an argument for me.
Armada might very well just be as good if he was still playing but Mang0 is actually playing and proving it.
Also his summit win is another major accolade he finally collected. I know that opinions on Summit are divided but imo it is the hardest major to win and the fact that 14 years into his career Mang0 still manages to win a tournament of this caliber is mindblowing to see in a sports context.
Considering I‘m a European obviously I have a soft spot for Armada and I wouldn’t fault anyone for picking him as the GOAT. Honestly I even think that Hbox is a legit pick at this point.
However for me personally it is Mang0. I‘ve never even really been a big Mang0 fan for the majority of my time I‘ve been watching Melee. I started watching at Big House 3 and I‘ve come around to love Mang0 in recent years. The fact that he is still playing after all this time gives me a nice nostalgic feeling and he is still laying the hurt on the new kids like Cody, Zain and Moky.
Mang0 embodies the spirit of the game aswell as the community. The man is undoubtedly intertwined with Melee and it will be a very sad day when he retires.
Comment for the algorithm
You’re a homie. I actually talked to some people in marketing and they say for it to help and got the the algorithm a comment has to have at least 5 words and no more than 3 emojis. If it doesn’t, it’s seen as spam.
I appreciate you ❤️
@@JeramiJoseph Here's five words for you
@@alyj8606 I love you
the truth no one wants to admit is that Hbox is the Goat
Especially with him adding in so much money and time into the scene lately. That alone can make you the goat 😂
People somehow completely ignore Hbox around twelve more major wins then mango and more years ranked 1st.
“But mango is so sick”
@@AL-lh2ht Or "Hbox only knows how to play puff and doesn't have any tech skillz" lmao.
@@qwposwpo9249 how hard doess someone need to cope to think playing a lower tiered character means it means they are the lesser player.
If Juan isn't the GOAT already, I think two more years of his usual consistency would more than cement his place as the best to ever do it.
I think Mang0 sums it up well. "It's funny how I can be considered the greatest of all time but equally at the same time be the biggest buster. Like how does that makes sense?" And he's right, it doesn't make sense. That's why Armada's the GOAT.
Well mang0 was considered #1 in 2021
The goat is undoubtedly Armada. Hbox is second. Mango is definitely the fan favourite though, he's got some crazy dedicated fans.
Armada was dominating amongst all these other players that we're considering. That was peak melee. I think that's enough to settle it.
I think you shouldn’t give someone a goat title in old games that will always have a successful competitive scene, like melee, NES Tetris or few speed running games. Because there is no economic (at least if you stream) or physical reason to quit the game. If you quit such a game as a Number 1 player, you’ll do it for emotional/personal reasons. in comparison to sports, at the latest you’re career will end in around 15 years because of age and physical reasons. In games that gets similar sequels like the other smash sequels, Street Fighter, CoD, Overwatch, etc., you can just retire after the lifespan of the current game and get the goat title of that specific entry. Right now armada looses his goat title, because he retired After a 12 year long career… Isn’t this unfair? That you have to compete at least as long as Hbox and Mang0, to be considered the goat? How long will that be? I’ll say, just forget the goat debate, because you can’t expect from someone, to do the same tedious job for 12 years. Just imagine you would be a carpenter for example, would you do it for 12 years? most of us would mix it up a little and work in other progression for certain amount of times.
All in all, let’s appreciate Ken, M2K, and Zain too, they all were the best for at least 2 Years. That’s longer then the life of many many competitive video game scenes. Let’s focus more on specific eras then on the entire lifetime, if the game is old and alive.
There is an economic reason to quit... melee will only support like 3 people to get through retirement: mango, hbox, and plup. In any other competition, Armada would be considered the GOAT no question, and melee can have a GOAT because it's a competitive endeavor. If tennis, basketball, soccer had a player that won as much as Armada, he would immediately take the title. Michael Jordan had a game winning percentage about equal to Armada's Major Tournament winning percentage... it's not a question.
Of course you can give the GOAT title, I just said that we shouldn’t do it. Yes you’re right economically it’s too hard to get by. And the people that you listed focus more on streaming and have the skills to be entertaining. That’s actually another reason that we shouldn’t focus so much on the GOAT debate, if you’re entertaining, it’s easier to only go to the big tournaments, because you’re not depending on prize money. So in terms of longevity Hbox and Mang0 have it easier then Armada, because he is a worse entertainer. But you could argue that streaming itself and being a good content creator for your sponsor is part of the competition.
It’s not that I take anything away of Hbox or Mang0, the immense undertaking to compete as long and as good as the both of the them have, is one of the hardest things to do in competition in general. I mean they dedicated nearly 20 years into this game, how incredibly nuts and impressive is this? We should just celebrate people like Zain, M2K and Ken in a similar degree as we do Mkleo for example and see goats in long running video games scenes, like Armada, Hbox, Mang0, Jonas Neubauer (Tetris) and cheese (Mario 64) less as goats and more as the best of one or several eras and as the greatest ambassadors for their game.
@@Rockleefan3 Smash's money limitation is not unique to smash. Golf costs thousands of dollars to play but no one has a problem deeming Tiger Woods the GOAT. I do think it should change how we view what a full career is. Regardless, Armada is the GOAT despite all the disadvantages. It took Mango like 3/4 more years to reach Armadas Major wins even though he went to more tournaments and started before him. It's fine to celebrate people but no one NEEDS to be celebrated as the greatest of all time if they don't deserve it.
My boy jerami putting in the CZcams work salute 🫡
Yessir! We getting there ❤️
Bobby Scar obviously
Lol true.