The Most Striking Change Since Vatican II
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- čas přidán 21. 03. 2024
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When I first became #Catholic, if I was going to pick up something to read to study the #faith, it was almost exclusively going to be something contemporary. So, examples of that would be encyclicals by John Paul II or Benedict XVI, modern apologetics, and devotional literature originating in the latter 20th century.
And then as I worked my way through those resources, I eventually started to read older Catholic texts, like older encyclicals and councils, #Church fathers, scholastic sources, etc. and I have to admit, I was dumbstruck by how sharp the contrast was between older texts and newer ones.
I had heard people claim that there was a rupture in the Catholic Church that took place in the 20th century, and not having had much experience of that myself, I didn’t pay much sympathy towards those kinds of sentiments. They seemed extreme and hysterical to me.
But through this process of reading a more comprehensive body of literature, my own sensibilities on such claims have grown in sympathy. Now, I don’t agree that there’s a rupture in the fundamental sense, as if to say, the essence of the Church has been lost, but I do think that there is a very striking transformation that took place within the Church over the 20th century.
And it’s what I would describe as the misplacement of ornamentation.
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Podcast Version: brianholdsworth.libsyn.com/ - Zábava
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Dear Brian, you realize you plead for more Orthodoxy into the Catholic Church, or am I mistaken ? If you take a look over the 1054 fence you see that the authenticity of Dogma and Worship it seems to me you are pleading for are preserved in a living way, so it could be a source of inspiration for the modern Catholic Church too. Both in Eastern and (rarest but existing) Western rites
you seem to have lots of support which is weird cos this is just another channel of hot air and empty claims. get god on the show and i'll be impressed but in the meantime, just stop blathering on about things you have no evidence for.
Over the past two years, we've travelled on pilgrimage to France and Poland. The beauty and ornamentation of those old churches is stunning and so inspiring. There wasn't a church we walked into that we didn't immediately feel the desire to kneel in quiet reverence before the Blessed Sacrament and pray to our Lord. I've never gotten that at our old parish back home that was built in a post-modern style. Thank you, Brian. I'm glad to support you.
That’s not good. One shouldn’t look for the beauties of the Parish since the beauty himself is at the Blessed Sacrament despite how the Parish looks.
The Second Vatican Council replaced the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass with one holy mess.
@StJohn6islifeeternal the Beauty of the Church points to and elevates the Blessed Sacrament. It's the same Blessed Sacrament in plain or extravagant settings, that's true, but the surroundings highlight the sacredness. Just like the Blessed Virgin Mary points to and highlights Christ.
If you know how andnyou have the money, God at least deserves better than buildings which have been designed with the idea of failing to evoke sublime feelings as the objective. Which newer church buildings usually do, protestant and catholic alike. No flying buttresses or sweeping gables, no towering Georgian steeples, but only studies in gray and right angles mors appropriate for a storage facility.
@@JWellsUpThat's what the evangelical protestants said in the 16th century, when they stripped the churches to the bare minimum. That's a protestant attitude. Catholics have traditionally sought to give glory to God in all facets of church life, including in church architecture, art, and ornamentation.
Im gonna be bona fide Catholic this Easter Vigil! I am only receiving the Eurharist from a priest, and on the tongue only
I only go to the priest. I will change lines.
@@christinereich6050 based
While I more than agree Eucharist should be given only by the priest we should never presume that it is immoral to receive it from a layman. It is only untraditional. So please don't imply tongue communion is necessary for being a bona fide catholic
@@igorlopes7589 wasn't my aim, bruh. You are the one who read more into my comment than what was necessary.
@@reverendcoffinsotherson5807The problem is that other people might read that into your comment
I'm not anti-novus ordo by a longshot. However, the music frequently makes me cringe--and I'm in the choir! Having studied music history and sung "early music" I have intimate experience with the beauty and transcendent qualities we now set aside.
💯% agree
My only problem with this is that there seems to be a stubborn resistance to encouraging and developing new music that does the same as the old music. This completely removes from the church any charism for music artistry. Please let’s not do that.
There needs to be some sense of the church as a complete whole - old and new, not just old.
Always with a mindset to elevation of heart, mind, soul to heaven.
@@vinciblegaming6817I'm honestly not sure who the new developers (composers) are. It's really not as difficult as you might think. Choose your text, and make the melody fit the words. Use reasonable voice-leading rules so melodies are easy to sing and memorable. If I had a nickel for every Gloria that sounded like a dirge and had notes & rhythms that made no sense...
@@musicmama2864 but isn’t that the classical way? Difficult to follow Melodies are common in Gregorian chant.
I don’t think it’s difficult excepting threading the needle of congregational expectation and the change in knowledge and skill available to the church today, but instead wishing for something that doesn’t currently exist (but could if we encourage and invest in it).
@@vinciblegaming6817 Chant melodies are not hard to follow at all if you've had some training and experience. That's how you would have heard them in the congregation at a Latin Mass. It's my understanding that with Vatican II they wanted the congregation to be more involved--and singing. The new, non-traditional music was supposed to be accessible. I'm no expert but I believe they borrowed from many protestant hymn tunes to fill out Catholic hymnals (from my memory of being a child in the 70s/80s). I witnessed a lot of change in hymns from the 90s to now. Many of the options have melodies and rhythms that aren't intuitive. The tune doesn't go where you think it will--the next note is way out in left field. If I don't have the notes in front of me it takes forever to learn. How is an untrained congregant going to get it and feel comfortable singing? Either make it easy and memorable (like Here I Am, or Hymn of St. Francis), or go back to having professional musicians but with really high-quality pieces that stir the soul with their beauty.
You have a great point here. I knew a man who was Buddhist and followed some very dubious gurus, he became more nervous and agitated. He was critical of Catholicism through the stuff he read in the media. Anyway, he dated a Polish woman and they went to Poland for 2 weeks. I bumped into him at the supermarket and he rushed towards me to tell me about the Churches his girlfriend took him to visit in Poland, he talked about how beautiful and spiritual they were and apologised to me for been so critical of catholicism. I haven't seen him since but i sure hope he was converted and married that Polish lady.
Great story. Thanks for sharing!
Dostoyevsky said: that beauty will save the world and I believe that liturgical beauty will help to save our souls.
Well said.
@@TheGringoSalado thanks 😊
@@stevensonrf I’ve been saying in this day and age in particular, Catholics need to wrestle with Dostoevsky’s Grand Inquisitor. Not Head in sand, but rather a courageous willingness to acknowledge reality and still love and fight for the Church. The time for Gaslighting and naivety is over.
@@TheGringoSalado Amen!
Fyodor Dostoyevsky was an Orthodox Christian. May God remember him in his Kingdom!
Here in Spain there are some awe inspiring churches. Sadly, in the wake of Vatican II the Spanish decided it would be a good idea to build churches that ressembled grain silos or steel works. The contrast in beauty between pre 60's and post 60's architecture is astonishing. In the city where I live they recently renovated the old prison that had been engulfed by the city. The council went to great lengths to restore it to its original state, because it is considered a building of great beauty. How telling that prisons of 150 years ago are more beautiful than Catholic churches built in the last 50 years!
God willing churches like La Sagrada Familia will revive the desire for beauty in younger Catholics.
Totally agree. We need more beauty in the churches, and a whole lot more clarity in the theology.
One of the reasons I think Eastern Catholic parish attendance is growing is because the faithful find everything they are due there-beautiful churches, reverent, unchanged liturgies (which are beautiful and transcendent, but also understandable and participatory) small, tight knit communities, and authentic Catholic theology. In most Roman parishes, you have to negotiate some of these goods, but it’s rare to find them all.
We need to go back to a pre Vatican II attitude. No salvation outside the Church, ad orientum, Eucharist on the tongue, no extra ordinary ministers, kneeling, tabernacle in the center.
Not that there aren’t Vatican II attributes that we can still hold too
Ok there
@@derek4412 That is great, as long we also remember to put emphasis on parts of Scripture that were deemphasized in the last decades, like the imprecatory Psalms that were basically banned from the NO. Or passages that warn us against sin and unworthy communion etc.
so you believe protestants should go to hell... thanks for reminding me why im not catholic
I’m a Byzantine Catholic, so your comment doesn’t really apply to me, but I’d be down for this, if the Old Mass could also be celebrated in the vernacular.
Agreed. There was an overcorrection here. Good news is that younger priests are much more conservative so over time the Church will find its way back. I may not see it but I think my daughter will
Amen, Brother.
I’m gonna say this in a way that’s gonna keep you humbled. You nailed it. God bless you God watch in guide over you always brother.❤
Brian, You are so right! We are living through a new age of iconoclasm. We recently put up some very simple statues, and a couple of icons in our sanctuary, and I was told by the diocesan liturgical committee, that I needed to “declutter” our sanctuary.🤣
@SolidDavid197 😇👍
Sounds more like Quakers than Catholics.
“Declutter” sounds like it’s straight out of Susan's mouth 😂
Thought provoking. Thank you for this.
As a church artist i can say you nailed it to perfection.
There is an old saying, "the bigger they are the harder they fall". The statement is often used in a pejorative way. Dissidents who are trying to bring down a powerful dictator will often say this. But the statement can also be applied to a positive situation that goes bad. When a very religious and holy society decides to turn away from God and embrace sin, the fall is often very devastating. The moral deterioration of the society happens very quickly and the degeneracy that is embraced is very evil. This is what happened in Europe and North America in the 20th century. There was a sudden rejection of Christianity in favor of secularism. The moral and spiritual deterioration happened so rapidly. It continues to this day, and it feels like nothing can stop it.
Love seeing Brian going on this journey.
This, Brian, is when you are at your best. This show and your comments tonight could’ve been heard at a council among Bishops and Cardinals. The subject was rich and vacant of the usual gossip that has caught fire out there and is nothing other than criticism that does the faithful no good at all. But your comments here are quite the opposite. Thank you for your contribution to enlightening us and in a way that is your strength. Welcome back, Good Sir!!!
Once again, an excellent, clear video. Thank you so much for your videos!
I'm attracted to the enthusiasm you show in your talks. I just recently subscribed from an earlier talk you did on universals. I find these talks useful for examining my own thinking on philosophic and religious ideologies. I can't really call myself dogmatically Catholic but I grew up Catholic in Lutheran Finland taught my American Catholic sisters. I like to explore other religious traditions and the shades of philosophic thought mainly for my interest in relating my readings to my own experiential development. It's a creative relation I look for in my writings. And I feel like the making of me comes out of this combination of secular and divine teachings. I would probably be considered heretical from a Christian orthodox perspective, but even Pope John XXII of the 14th Century was accused of heresy.
Beautifully said. As always, 3 Aves for your intentions 🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻✝️
Immerse yourself in the books and videos of Bishop Fulton J Sheen.
That's a really interesting idea. Ornamentation where it shouldn't be, replacing its lack where it used to (reasonably) be.
Very interesting point about "the spirit of" only ever being used in reference to VII. Canary in the coal mine?
They use the same glossing over, marketing/packaging for communism. “Communism has never been implemented correctly = VII has never been implemented correctly”
You are being too nice. The Church went through it's 1789 accir\oding to Ratzinger. There was more than a change. There was a break. Once you see it, you can't un~see it. God Bless and Mary protect you!
It was a rupture.
It’s spiritual abuse, caused by the stonecutters, as predicted by Our Lady of Good Success.
Interested EO here & musician as well as in minor orders. I found this contrast to be interesting, apt, & helpful. Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
Brian, Great video however I think you're mistaken that Vatican II was not dealing with a complex and urgent issue in the church.
Besides the Protestant Revolution modernism and the rise of modern scientism is the greatest fundamental shift in human thinking that has ever occurred.
I get frustrated with this idea that everything was great beforr Vatican II do when the evidence is just not there.
Sometimes I feel like because we're so dissatisfied with the way the world is we create a false ideas of how the world was.
Doesn't mean the solution implemented after it in the seventies was a true answer to the problem
I’m in the middle of reading Vatican II, and this insight about ornamentation appropriateness really made an immediate impression on me, and I think this insight is one of the keys to unlocking the puzzle of the modern crisis. A deep thanks for sharing this.
“Vatican 2 wasn’t responding to some urgent and complex controversy”
Sure it was, the world was becoming increasingly secularized after 2 world wars and the church needed new vigor to meet that challenge in the modern day. There was no big new doctrine to define, the church has already well defined it’s teaching in the prior 20 ecumenical councils, this is why it was a “pastoral” council since its goal was on HOW to present what the church teaches.
So secularization of the church is the right call? NO.
When you read the statements by Pope John XXIII (at the opening) and Pope Paul VI (at the close), neither of those popes had any intention of casting aside settled dogma. Unfortunately, Vatican II was implemented by certain members of the clergy in such a way as to cause a rupture with Sacred Tradition. It got to the point that Pope Paul VI made reference to the "smoke of Satan" now being in the tabernacle towards the end of his papacy.
Thanks a lot Brian for all that you are doing for the Catholic Church. I'm a Franciscan Capuchin Friar from Malta (Europe) and would really love to know your thoughts and reflections on consecrated life. Would you be willing to do a video about this? Thankyou and may God bless you!
Thank you Brian
Having not read the documents of the councils I was not aware. However it would be good to have seemly ornamentation brought back to the churches and liturgy.
What we need to be aware of is that this is mainly a problem of the Catholic Church in the West. Having travelled in southern India, some of the newer churches are so richly decorated that they look as if they were built over a century ago, when in fact they were built 10 to 20 years ago at most. There are more fanciful buildings too, of course, but the difference is striking. Whereas in Europe we're in the process of distancing ourselves from a certain architectural tradition, in India (Tamil Nadu), where the faith is more alive, the buildings claim a classical style. I don't know if we'll ever be able to make such buildings at reasonable cost again.
Well said. Great points!
balanced and well said!
Good and original video. Thanks.
Well said!
Very good. Sending to my theologian son here in Germany.
I love both ornamental old churches and the minimalist ones as well in different times of my life. Depends of what I am going through.
It’s not about you
If by minimalist you mean some bahaus like Church then rethink that please. The Sacred must be set appart from the mundane visually, only this can signify that the Sacred is what is set appart for the highest purpose
I absolutely 100% agree!
Wow, Brian. Well done.
Amen!
During Tenebrae this year I was swept up in the thought that "This is too much". The service went on, and on, and on, and the Latin chant went on, and on, and on... Yet in the midst of it all I also lamented the liturgical dwarfism, minimalist bean-counter aesthetic, and anthropocentricity of this present era. In the end the last chant ended and we went our separate ways, but for a brief couple of hours we were somehow knit together and woven into a much larger, eternal, and glorious tapestry, richly ornamented and beautiful.
I think homiletics is the struggle to instill inspiring beauty into what can otherwise be a dry concise theological lecture, to simultaneously inform and inspire. It is an art few clergy seem to have the gift of it seems.
Do you have a recommended reading list for converts studying Catholicism?
Yes. Read up the history of the early Church ie the first 9 centuries.
Ratzinger‘s Introduction to Christianity; Aidan Nichols OP, The Splendour of Doctrine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church on Christian Believing,
The Service of Glory. The Catechism of the Catholic Church on Worship, Ethics, Spirituality
Come to the Father. An Invitation to Share the Faith of the Catholic Church
The Church Father‘s are a must read but if you are just starting you need some introduction. Both the Pope Benedict ( Ratzinger) and Nichols point to the need to turn to the fathers so will guide you towards that.
@Brianholdsworth, Nichols Apologia is a very interesting reading, I think you would enjoy it
Look up Tan Classics 12 Book Set
Born in 55. Yes, there has been a rupture. Lots of psychology and sociology now. Never hear about staying in a state of grace and reparation to Our Lord. Everything now is 'community'.
I went to a Novus-Ordo Mass this Palm Sunday, and I cringed through the music and the homily. This type of liturgy is a soul killer, but With God’s help I’m hanging in there. Where else would I go?
Precisely put. True.
Brian I could not have stated it better than this! Brilliant video! I am from Europe and i have been trying to support your channel but I can only pay via pay pal or stripe which is not allowed in my country, is there any other way to support?
As Christians and followers of Lord Jesus we must be established only on holly scripture, where Mighty God has revealed Himself. This is important because if worldly ideas and desires of flesh gain more approval than the Word of God this is compromise and it should be called out as Lord Jesus called out RELIGIOUS Pharisees. God bless!
Matthew 23:25-29:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean".
8:00 this, yes yes yes yes yes yes. 💯
I believe you’ve hit the nail on the head. There seems to have been a strong conviction that western Christendom was going to reunify. Using imprecise, ornamental language was, in part, to help Christians like the Lutherans and Anglicans have an easier time retaining some of their beliefs.
But truth leads to unity. Truth must be established first, not softened to create the appearance of unity.
👆 “Truth must be established first.” THEN Unity is possible.
We need to balance Vatican II with a greater appreciation for the first seven ecumenical councils.
And the Council of Trent 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
All you need is the orthodox faith ☦
true, except that the liturgical and ornamentation deconstruction was downstream of philosophy and theology becoming" a source of confusion" (it was not 5:15 "simultaneous"). For the vital stats both sides of the Atlantic started collapsing around 1960, before Vatican II). Indeed, we were well into losing academia and Christendom by then (as had already been charted by the likes of Newman, Dawson, Lewis, Knox, etc).
Yes. Agreed. I think these things were symptoms, within the council, rather than caused by it. I should have been more clear about that.
@@BrianHoldsworth thanks. Of course the deconstruction that you have well outlined was not the harmonious development which the Council asked for.
As I'm listening to you speak of ornamentation, and the placement of sacred art, I was struck by the realization that many of the changes that have taken place, especially the taking away of adorientum, the altar placement and the tabernacle being placed off to the side, stripped away the core meaning of the mass. Which is the worship of the one true God. It suddenly made me feel like a robbery victim.
Also working in the construction industry, I can imagine the training and mentoring to building such churches, along with people who literally have endless amount of junk they can buy at a touch of a button, the financial hurdles must be huge. I’m in a parish that has been struggling to build a church over a decade, and the pastor is asking people if they want to donate more money and get the nice door handles, or will just make due with the builder spec handles.
And TBH, I have to question my own choices of where my money goes…
Mass of ages was eye opening... especially the liturgy edit scene. I feel like I've always had a very surface level understanding of faith, which misled me as a teen. And what's bringing me back now as an adult is the traditional appeal.
Yes! The essence of the faith has been lost! That's why after attending the TLM for 35 years, I am Eastern Orthodox! I couldn't square the circle any longer!
Amen☦
I don't think a course correction, followed by decades of slow change are an option any longer.
I'd recommend 'The Sound of the Liturgy' by Rev Cally Hammond. She's an Anglican chaplain, so the examples are mostly Anglican, but it's really illuminating.
I agree that the decoration creating a prayerful environment is extremely important and needs to reflect the parisioners keeping in mind their sensabilities. I say this coming from a multi cultural parish, you really need a commitee, for what is perceived as reverent and welcoming for one group is cold and garden to another. And this is where I believe some things went a bit sideways post Vat ii. With Vatican II it became very clear that mass is not a bunch of people sitting in pews not paying attention (why we had the bells to tell us when to look up), but that mass is literally the Work of the People. I remember pre Vat II as a little girl.Only the most devout paid attention. I've heard several priest speak since about how lonely the celebration of our Lord could feel, as he knew they weren't listening. Few knew Latin and not everyone had the missile with Latin on one side and your language on the other. But this changed rather suddenly, but unfortunately without a lot if guidance on how to implement change. It was basically left up to the bishops and individual pastors how things rolled out, which could be wonderful or disasterous. We still have people recoverinf. The interesting thing about new buildings is that was even inconsistent within a diocese. My diocese had several new churches go up in the sixties. Some with beautiful altars and stained glass windows, some so ultra modern, I enter and question if they are Catholic. So, seriously, I would suggest ito anyone, if your church environment is not as lovely as it should be, go talk to the pastor. Quite often it is just a matter of no one in the office has thought much about it. With diocesan approval, new windows can be put in, even new altars brought in, entire exteriors rearranged. This is OUR church. This is the Work of the People. We need to bring those feelings of love and adoration of our Lord into our sacred space.
I would like to add that ornamentation in Catholic Architecture closely mirrors the artistic trends of the 18th and 19th Centuries.
For instance, the mission of Music, Art and Architecture of the Baroque and early Classical periods was to transport the viewer to the element of the sublime. This idea came to an apex in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. In music you hear thie florid music of the day (remembef the story of Emperor Franz Joseph remarking, after a Mozart opera performance, "Too many notes, my dear Mozart," to which Mozart responded "Exactly as many as necessary, Your Majesty").
In church art and archetecture, you see intracate carvings, inside and out, colorful Baroque frescos, realism statuary, florid painting resplendent with cherubs and gold leaf, alwways drawing the eye uoward, to heaven, as evidenced by the painted ceilings depicting Biblical characters and scenes. In the late 18th and 19th centuries these artistic trends gave way other movements such as cubism, pointalism and abstract expressionism. Some church architecture we see reflects these movements such as the famous cathedral La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. The type of artistic movement providing today's influence is under debate (are we in neo- Baroque. neo-Classical, or neo-Expressionistic period?). That is why we see both minimalist and ornate modern creations. There is beauty in all, and the simplest, cleanest designs can provide meaningful experiences -- depending on the individual. Attend Mass at the Abbey Church at St. John's Monestary in Minnesota which is transporting in its simplicity. Vive la difference!
The spirit of the schismatic is still at work.
??? So to say the abandonment of ornamentation in Liturgy and Sacred Art was bad is schismatic? To say that magisterial documents should be clear definitions imposing a specific meaning insteaf of looking like devotionals is schismatic?
On the second point I would like to remember you how Fiducia never explicitly said the homosexual couple should make a commitment to separate before receiving the blessing. This is the problem, this new language used in magisterial documents is anything but clear
My hope is that someone in the Vatican is watching this! Well said...
We need a restoration of FERVOR.
The font image for this video is meme worthy.
Absolutely love this video, I just have one criticism, the language of marriage vows are not meant to be poetic, but more canonical, since the validity of that sacrament is the focus. That is why we don't allow couples to write their own vows. They have to be precise to the point.
8:10 Is this the Theatinerkirche in Munich, Bavaria?
I love the ornamentation in the old churches. I was raised in a byzantine church, you can't get more ornamentation than that. But to me, the most beautiful church was a small chapel in the woods, at an RC summer camp, where I fell in love with Jesus. I still prefer the ornamentation, but you can't tell me it's necessary. I know it's not. Without that minimalist chapel, I would not be here today.
That chapel wasn't minimalist. It was simple. It was still designed to show the transcendent, in a different and affordable way. Not to show that we better get rid of beauty, like the modern churches.
Simple and minimalist could be seen as the same. There are some minimalist churches that are beautiful, but they are the exception. But overall, I do agree with you. Growing up Ukrainian Catholic, we were taught that the inside of the church was meant to symbolize heaven. Hence all the gold and vast hue of colors. Beautiful to behold. Plus when you're a bored kid in Mass, the pictures on the wall have their own ministry, silently teaching the observer. May Jesus forever live in your heart.
Brian, I have a strong doubt to share, which I hope you can resolve.
My catholicity is already cynical, but what I have to confess a little is the strong criticism of the statues/statuettes of Jesus/Crucifixes, of the Saints and of the Virgin, all beautifully decorated and colourful.
What I really admire are statues (whether made of wood, marble or stone) that are much poorer, simpler and humbler.
Do you agree too?
(The icons have no problem)
A video of the persecution of the Teutonic Knights and Brigidine Nuns who remained Catholic?
The reason why you can say this without understanding the why, it's a huge problem... Christ is always in kenosis, he is always self emptying himself in order for humanity to be lifted up, so that God can shine brighter, so he ends up with the highest version of kenosis, giving his whole life on a cross, being ripped appart from his garments, and from his beauty, so that God can restore the world, the Church is always sacrificing herself, because she is the mistical body of Christ. An orthodox will say that what is happening now is expected since the "Romans" (as they call us) went away from orthodoxy in respect to images and proper theological language, etc. So they will argue that you haven't gone far enough to see how our church went astray. But their issue is the same, they don't understand the Church as a sacrificial Church, as a mystical living, dying and resurrecting church. And yeah, there was a sacrifice in Vatican 2 and we should mourn and cry for it, but we should know better, that God resurrects his Church mystically over and over again. And there was a sacrifice in the renaissance went medieval iconography was dispensed with, yet our good Lord resurrected his Church again after that sacrifice.
The book by Michael S. Rose, "Ugly as Sin" explains what happened to the ornamentation within modern Catholic churches. There was a group of Catholic clergy enthralled by the ideas of a Protestant architect, Edward Sovik. He wanted multi-purpose spaces with easily moved furniture and little ornamentation; Sovik did not like traditional church architecture. The National Conference of Bishops (predecessor organization to the USCCB) appointed a committee to make recommendations on architecture. In 1978, this committee put out a document in the name of the NCB but the document was never ratified by the entire conference of bishops (essentially the committee usurped their authority).
A big driver and apparently the primary author of the 1978 document, "Environment and Art in Catholic Worship" was a Fr. Robert Hovda. When you read the several obituaries for Fr. Hovda, you piece together some disturbing incidents about Fr. Hovda: he was a member of a Methodist anti-war group agitating during WWII and converted to Catholicism to stay out of prison. He is quoted as calling the Counter-Reformation "hysteria." His document repeatedly refers to the Mass as a meal and never once makes reference to the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This document is where you find a lot of the criticism of art within a church.
The USCCB has actually formally replaced "Environment and Art in Catholic Worship" in 2000 with a new document that reaffirms the necessity of sacred art, and repeatedly state refers to the Eucharist Sacrifice.
I have come to the conclusion that several "poison pills" were seeded within the Vatican II documents that escaped the notice of most of the attendees to that ecumenical council. For example, Vatican II states that sacred art is necessary but should be "in moderation." That statement was used as a justification to strip the churches of art.
If not a Rupture, then at least a Hernia!
In 2007 we went to our niece's wedding in a fairly new modernist Catholic church. I almost wanted to go outside and look at the sign to make sure it was a Catholic Church. It has all the modernist things in it that make me cringe, a round auditorium like arrangement for seating, a bate altar with the tabernacle down the hall in a locked room, stations of the cross all bunches up together in the back and music that sounds like it was composed for Saturday morning children's TV
Laudetur Jesus Christus. Fruits of V2 are obvious. It's important to recognize this fact
I note you're based in Canada, is that correct? Does that limit the ways we can donate for those of us who live elsewhere?
What do you think of icons?
Icons are prayer expressed in paint, depicting events and people important in salvation history.
One of the hardest things about coming back to the Catholic Church 6 years ago was the bad music and the ugly buildings.
Thank God I am able to unite my suffering with Christ's.
Theology,Doctrine,Sacred Scripture,
Philosophy,Divinity,Etc. of the
Catholic Church,I would say
has changed over the years.
Vatican 11 played a great part
over the last sixty years.There
are many Issues and Challenges
in the Church today that need
sorting out.If I was the Pope,I
would call Vatican 111 to sort
everything out.❤️.
I have noticed lately the churches have been renovated to back to more sacred and spiritual beauty.
There is beauty in simplicity, too.
I mean, it can be. But not in a situation of devotion inside a church and looking to its architecture. Beauty is objective. Fr. Ripperger has videos specifically about this
@davighidetti8947 devotional beauty is spiritual. It is possible to have the most aesthetically beautiful church but its people's devotion be dead interiorly.
@angelahull9064 And?? Inner beauty should be manifested in outer beauty, we see this is the history of the Church. The second the Church was able to build ornamented beautiful giant ordered harmonious buildings that was her choice. Also, a greater beauty sets the Sacred appart from the mundane, teaching the faithful to regard the Sacred as sacred (set appart, special)
@igorlopes7589 the Tabernacle, the altar, and the hearts of the congregants will make the simplest of churches seem like heaven on earth.
@@angelahull9064 And? Doesn't change the fact we are obliged to honor God through physical beauty and to visually set the Sacred appart from the mundane. It was like this in the Ark of the Covenant, the Temple and all Church Buildings that managed to afford it. Until the Clergy was infected by modern ideas that reject objective beauty
The of role of icons has been debated for many years in the Eastern and Western Church. Most of the ebb and flow on the subject predates Vatican II by centuries. Why do you think modernism and classicism are in conflict? In my opinion, both are beautiful, reflections of the human experience, and a vision of the Devine. They’re just different, like when Romanesque was replaced by Gothic, etc.
Those that are lost hate beauty the most.
illiteracy played a huge role in the ornamentation of the old church. i mean from the get go. when people began to be educated to be able to read the bible itself, the ornamentation took a smaller and smaller role. witness the down dressing of the protestant churches. when the bibile was put into the vernacular, people did not need fancy glass pictures in the window and statues etc and their liturgy dropped down in ornamentation. the reformation was the paring down of the ornamentation. but people were offended when the roman catholic church went to the vernacular to become more transparent and available to even the illiterate. seeing god in the architecture and art was a work in teaching via non literate societies. appropriate time and place for the decor is essential. to not be a distraction.
is dignity equivalent to ornamentation? don't think so
Brian, you are doing a great job, but still there's perhaps some room to learn more. Perhaps you can't notice the differences, but to someone who has at least 500 years of catholicity in their family it's all clear. That Sensus Fidelium is more than reading, it's intangible, but very real. May you find it with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Our modern age is dominated by an Ayn Rand perspective on the how of aesthetics Bishops hire an architectural firm to design our churches and cathedrals -having that one visionary architect which forms the structure from his own mind and perspective. In contrast, the cathedrals of old were constructed over centuries including the slow methodical contributions of thousands upon thousands of artisans, builders, and designers. The clergy guided these endeavors; However, even in this case, this meant a period of several Bishops. Today, everything is financed and constructed in short order -the result of only a few men with a limited vision of Christ.
the biggest change I noticed is about biblical notes, most modern Bibles have notes and introduction that contraddicts anything the Fathers and the saints have been teaching
Seems to me the catholic church in general needs to do a better job of educating its adherents on its practices. I walk into a beautiful church in awa and none of my catholic family or any catholic friends i know can tell me the purpose and the meaning of any of it. Making it feel so disconnected from the life of Christ. IF you gonna give your life to a belief, it seems like you should know more then "well it's what my parents did".
Good Catholic education is the foundation of a Catholic community, but the schools became secular and the priests/deacons are unqualified and overburdened.
Color me confused.
While I did understand the topic of ornamentation, I didn't get any connection between it and the stated subject of Vatican II. Personally, I have the opinion that the "Mass of the Ages" channel rejects Vatican II and the Novus Ordo mass. So the use of their graphic showing the changes to the Liturgy was confusing to me.
I just didn't get the point you were trying to make here.
I think one has to be careful to simply seek out the ornamentation over the Divine Presence in the Eucharist. Personally minimalism for me in church design has served as a type of “silence for the eyes” as I once heard it put. That simplicity really forces me to go inward and find God within.
If you had read the older stuff first I wonder (knowing what you know now) if you would have converted to Catholicism. I suspect atleast some chance exists that you would not have (but now that you have you are stuck trying to reconcile what you found out after the fact). In short, I suspect some buyers remorse exists deep down in some Converts (since atleast Francis) that many do not want to really admit. On the other hand, I suspect some that had converted have now reconnected back to Protestantism or EO.
I live in city where I couldn’t find any Church that have rich decoration teaching faith…most of them white paint 😔. No Mystery .
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Architectural beauty, ornamentation, though of help, is not as important as the piety of the spirit, or its wholesomeness. It is important whenever one prays to fix our attention of the beauty of God and his creation in our spirits such that we can pray, and be heard while at home, walking, sitting at work, in the company of others, hourly, daily. No church required.
I agree that the “wrecktovations” were a terrible transition. A terrible correlation that you can see were the costs for such “updates” and the closing down of parishes due to lack of funds.
Something that I was happy with in 2010 was a return to a more accurate translation of the liturgical texts. There were multiple bishops who criticized the move, which was a shocking claim since several texts took too many liberties to rephrase things beforehand. I do not support the dumbing down of the mass, much less the faith in general.
Vatican II on paper is beautiful but too many powerful people abused those texts to reduce the Church to a sham of an NGO.
Cool
I think part of the lack of clarity came from the fact that VII was the first council in which academic theologians had the greater weight over that of the curia administrators and canon lawyers. This was because of nature of the council and of what was being sought through it on the one hand, and on the other, the fact that since the 1920s-30s at the height if Ressourcement there was a separate growing trend that disagreed with Newman’s thought in doctrinal continuity that was compatible with development. This originally a purely academic debate spilt into the pastoral world. Added to that is the influence and penchant for mistake in their understanding of the doctrine of grace in Thomas, and therefore Augustine, present in the Jesuit order. This is now particularly present but has been dragging on for decades if not centuries ( think the de auxilis controversy right around Trent). And then of course the overall crisis the world has found itself in since WWI ( some could argue since Luther- wouldn’t be too far off in that with nuances): the human side of the Church is affected by the world around it even when, and parallel to, the Divine and atemporal is not. The Church should remind the world of the Light and Beauty present in its creation because of the Creator, but when the world has lost completely the notion even of earthly beauty, the Church must find a way to communicate the eternal divine Beauty it holds, but how to do that. VII tried to respond to that question, but internal conflict, not least of how to understand the creation narratives, blocked the entire thing ( thank you historical-critical method).
Council of Trent produced (among other things) 151 Anathemas in response to “Heretics”.
🤔💭🧐
Vatican 2 Council officially started
Ecumenical Movement and eventually called Heretics “Separated Brethren”.
As in "we"- agreed however, the deconstruction of beauty is far more long lasting than its construction. WE will never see it, if it ever returns. We can't make roman concrete- we certainly can't make what the Roman's made with it, as an analogy.
My own view is that if we stuck to the old ways we would never have been in this mess in the first place.
I now do things the old way. All I do is go to Mass, do what’s in the catechism and say lots of prayers.
*personally* now, I don’t need to read tons of theology etc etc to try and find God.
He’s there in the old Mass. No explanation needed.
No sophistry needed.
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Who is the author of confusion and who/what is distributing it?
God bless and guide us all.
SERVIMUS NON REGIS SED IESUS CRISTUS
Diabolos originally meaning to scatter, says it all really. Confusion in this magnitude is the work of the devil.
Disagree with the Latin. Servimvs Regis, Iesvs Christvs
@Luke-ms5hn SERVIMUS NON REGIS SED IESUS CRISTUS ( we serve no king but Jesus Christ ) - old (as in hundreds of years) family motto
David Wemhoff "John Courtney Murray"