Great playing! I feel the vintage one has more character to the sound but it seems the newer one is much easier to play and takes less effort. Both sound great!
It's actually incredible to my ears, on headphones, just how different those two sounds are. The 1957 had a lot more low harmonics in the sound, and a lot less hiss from your air in it.
I love King trombones. I currently have a 2B Silversonic, 3B-F Silversonic, a 4B, 6B (bass), and a 1938-39 gold-plated Cleveland. I've probably owned 20 or more Kings in my lifetime.
@@SchmittMusicTromboneShop hard to articulate, but at least through my phone speakers, the modern 3b has a lot more dense, focused sound. The vintage Silver Sonic has the same clarity, but a warmer more "velvety" characteristic. Strongly prefer the older one.
I bought a King 2B Silvertone from 1928 on a guess from Ebay from the H.N. White company and imported it to the Netherlands without ever played on it. I love it!
I definitely prefer the sound of the vintage over the new. I found that I could not detect a difference in the higher register but in the lower register I prefer the tone of the vintage. I may be a little bias because I bought my silver sonic new in 1969 and I am still playing it after 50 years.
It's always interesting to listen to a recording after playing. What we hear as the player with the position of our ear to the instrument is far different from what an audience hears! I thought the vintage horn was actually a bit warmer until the upper range where I heard better clarity on the new horn. Now, that's just through the compression and speakers on my computer so I wouldn't put a lot of weight on that ! I'll be watching all your videos. I have a pretty nice bunch of Kings and really think I'm needed one more......(my wife doesn't)
It is the difference between corn syrup and honey...both sweet, but the vintage is pure, liquid gold! I could tell instantly! I own a 1975 7B Duo Gravis Silver Sonic and a 1975 3B Silver Sonic, and they both give that same, sweet, clear focused sound. Nice playing, thanks!
Totally not biased as someone who plays a late 60’s 3BFSS-I was shocked at how big the difference between two practically identical horns was. First off, the modern 3BS definitely sounded more slotted into place and “sat” on high notes better. BUT the tone quality of the older 3B SS was absolutely to die for. I loved how at softer dynamics it was incredibly buttery and conversely at louder dynamics it was almost crackly whilst still keeping a lid on the “brightness.” On the other hand, the modern 3BS’s tone was more consistent in terms of brightness and harmonic profile throughout dynamics. Probably plenty of people’s cup of tea, but not mine.
The 57 Silver Sonic is slightly more mellow. The new King slots just a bit more firmly in the upper register. Both sound excellent. Either horn would play superbly in a small dance band - and once the player got used to either one, the sound would be indistinguishable between the two. I need to get a new, or newer, horn over my '54 Student Olds, but alas, my skill level does not justify it - part of the peril of taking up the horn again at eighty, 3 months ago. (I have forgotten Everything) OTOH, this horn was $185 in 1954 when my momma bought it for me, which would be $1727 today according to the calculator. Apparently being a student was more expensive back then.
Great sound, on both as a matter of fact. Just a comment on the current state of production for King trombones - which I think is more the concern of craftsmanship in old versus new. I have purchased two new King tenors in the last 6 years, the first 2103PLG had to go back for refinishing under warranty due to oil artifacts under the lacquer, however, it came back beautiful and still sounds great. The second one, a 2BPLG purchased in December of last year I wish I could have kept but there were burs and nicks on the slide, probably from over buffing the brass before lacquering and there was thick excess solder between the bell brace flange and the bell. That being said, King parts are great and some of the best quality in the industry, but the assembly needs work. The quality of Bach horns coming out of the same factory is far superior to the Kings. I would pay a premium over the current pricing structure for a high-quality meticulously constructed new King trombone. I wish I could see it differently, but it's already happened twice to me.
I bought a 3BG Legend two years ago. The slide was awful. King then kindly send 3 more slides to try: all were just awful. Since I had to order the horn before playing it, I know, bad idea, but I had relied upon King's reputation. I finally had to send the slide to a slide specialist who explained that the slide had been mis-assembled. The brace was actually making the slide have crooked geometrics. All that said, at an addition cost of $500, I have a great sounding horn with a less than satisfactory slide. Maybe I should have traveled far to find a better slide, or purchased a Yammie or a Bach. I am kinda stuck with it. Please learn from my mistakes: try it first. Don't the King name until you try it.
Vintage sounds warmer / darker. I currently have a 1961 King 3B SilverSonic, and a 1963 2B SilverSonic. Both slides are super smooth and sound great. I also picked up a valve section for the 3B and it plays beautifully as well.
The vintage horn definitely has more character. I’ve been playing a 1960’s H.N.White 2B Silversonic steadily since I bought it new in my college days... beautiful sound and fabulous slide. Biggest criticism is the inconsistency in slide positions through the upper partials, but any horn has that to one degree or another.
Keith...you provide a wealth of sincere assessments of the horns you share with us. A wealth of info! Love watching you at work. I have personally found that what you have experienced on several horns...including Conn88HO... to be spot on! PS great playin’ God bless.
I play a silver sonic from '78 and obviously i am very used to the sound, but even here in the comparison i like the sound of the vintage more. Thanks for making this video.
Very close but I think I liked the newer horn's sound better. Just a warmer and more consistent tone. Silver Sonic sounds maybe a little more appropriate for "Getting Sentimental" though.
So I’m pretty 50/50 on vintage horns. my own opinion was that the vintage “sound” was going to fit that older jazz of when it was created. some of the examples felt very “fitted” for that sound especially in the high register. And I think honestly the music of that period had an effect of how they crafted their horns, vs. how modern horns are made. It almost feels like the craftsmen had a specific purpose of what coloration people wanted back then and into today.
To me personally I always feel that new is going to be best if we are talking about a company that actually has good QC and uses more modern ways of manufacturing than the old ways. IE handmade vs CNC. That dual bore thing in a 2b for instance. There is no way they manage to get .485/.495 every single time down to the infinitesimal measurements that a CNC can. Not to mention the wear on inner slide tubes of an old horn vs new.
To my ear, there isn't a great deal of difference between the two. I owned a 1970-ish Silversonic w F attachment in high school, and I sure do wish I hadn't sold it. I'm 67 years old now, and I'm playing more trombone than ever before. I have several nice horns (incl a brass bell 3b), but that's still my "spirit" instrument. I enjoy all your videos- thanks!
The Silver Sonic Sounded Way Warmer on this end with good headphones on the lyrical tunes. the last piece you played with the short notes in the upper register they sounded much the same and bright. I play both a 1940's Martin Committee and 1947 Olds Studio for Jazz and a 1980's Bach 42O with thayer for my legit / symphonic, which are pretty extreme in Warm vs Bright tambours.
IOn my speakers, the tone color of the vintage was "softer," perhaps not as articulate and bright as the newer horn, but more to my preference. I have been revisiting Curtis Fuller after his recent passing. He always seemed to me to maintain a perfect balance of tone and I wonder what someone of his approach would say. What do you think? I am in the market for a horn, especially a bass trombone and tend towards the older models. Thanks a lot. It was a humbling pleasure hearing you play!
I like the older ones the best. I have two 1930’s H. N. Whites that I love. The one has a slightly longer slide and shorter bell sections than other trombones. It made it difficult to find a case for it. The other trouble I had was finding a mouthpiece I liked with them until I tried an H. N. White one from the 20’s. My newest is a Conn (1954?) 50h.
I gotta say, both sounded great in your hands for different reasons. The 3BS being so mellow, though, I'd worry about it cutting in a big band when I needed it to, and I wouldn't use it for much else, so I'd have to give the nod to the Silver Sonic for my purposes. I could see someone who spends a lot of time playing to an audience through a mic preferring the 3BS, though!
I liked the old horn a little better but both are great. I came here as I have had one with the f attachment since 1971 so I'm no doubt going to be a little biased.
I have a 2103F 3B silver dual bore, perhaps it’s nearly 20 years old. It’s great small bore for all ranges, perfect for horn section, blending with tenor sax / trumpet or Flugel. Love it’s versatility
I may be biased but I like the sound of the Silversonic better. It sounded better in the more melodic parts you played. As for personal experience, I have not tried any newer horns made today, but I did purchase a 2b made during the UMI years and thought it to be terrible. It had no resonance and just felt flat and uninteresting to play. It was a ebay find and I actually thought the student King Cleveland 605 I grew up playing was a better horn. I put it up for sale on ebay and bought a silver king 3b with the f attachment made in the early 70's and still have it today. It's far superior to the 2b I got rid of.
Keith u make them all sound good , does anyone know where to get a lighter king slide like the one WAyne HEnderson played in the Crusaders it looks thinner walled. Maybe just vintage thanks
I play a lot with Rock bands and need punch and volume. I've played on a King 2B Silvertone (H.N. White) for years and have found it did the job perfect. The 3BS is a beautiful horn but is a bit too mellow and rounded for me. B.T.W. I recently bought a Shires Michael Davis tenor T.B. and now I won't play anything else. It does it all for me.
Thanks for the comment! Sterling silver can be great for adding depth and warmth to ones sound but it can be over the top and some players feel that it can take more work to get it to respond. BTW I really like the nimbleness and versatility of the Davis!
I did not; I am a proponent of fitting the mouthpiece to the instrument but when it comes to initial trials I tend to stick with my standard gear so that I am not putting too many variables into the mix...
In this video I was using my iPhone and I might have been using a basic Zoom mic. We have recently upgraded our system and we are now using an AKG C214 condenser mic with a Lumix HDR camera, recording with OBS and editing in Adobe Premier. I am still learning how to use it all but I have been happy with the upgrade thus far...
S.E. Shires offers sterling silver bells; I have not had a chance to play a sterling small bore tenor but I have played a bass bell and it was magnificant!
Great playing!
I feel the vintage one has more character to the sound but it seems the newer one is much easier to play and takes less effort.
Both sound great!
It's actually incredible to my ears, on headphones, just how different those two sounds are. The 1957 had a lot more low harmonics in the sound, and a lot less hiss from your air in it.
I love King trombones. I currently have a 2B Silversonic, 3B-F Silversonic, a 4B, 6B (bass), and a 1938-39 gold-plated Cleveland. I've probably owned 20 or more Kings in my lifetime.
I played a 1969 Silversonic for 43 years and enjoyed it ver much. Listening to you I like the warmth and clarity of that sound.
I loved the 1957 king sound
I don’t normally comment on videos but I just wanted to say that I liked the vintage horn better.
Thank you for taking the time to comment! What stood out for you with the vintage horn vs. the others?
@@SchmittMusicTromboneShop hard to articulate, but at least through my phone speakers, the modern 3b has a lot more dense, focused sound. The vintage Silver Sonic has the same clarity, but a warmer more "velvety" characteristic. Strongly prefer the older one.
I bought a King 2B Silvertone from 1928 on a guess from Ebay from the H.N. White company and imported it to the Netherlands without ever played on it. I love it!
I definitely prefer the sound of the vintage over the new. I found that I could not detect a difference in the higher register but in the lower register I prefer the tone of the vintage. I may be a little bias because I bought my silver sonic new in 1969 and I am still playing it after 50 years.
It's always interesting to listen to a recording after playing. What we hear as the player with the position of our ear to the instrument is far different from what an audience hears!
I thought the vintage horn was actually a bit warmer until the upper range where I heard better clarity on the new horn. Now, that's just through the compression and speakers on my computer so I wouldn't put a lot of weight on that !
I'll be watching all your videos. I have a pretty nice bunch of Kings and really think I'm needed one more......(my wife doesn't)
It is the difference between corn syrup and honey...both sweet, but the vintage is pure, liquid gold!
I could tell instantly! I own a 1975 7B Duo Gravis Silver Sonic and a 1975 3B Silver Sonic, and they both give that same, sweet, clear focused sound. Nice playing, thanks!
I have a 76’ 3b Silver Sonic on the way this week. This is great to hear! I can’t wait for it :-)
Totally not biased as someone who plays a late 60’s 3BFSS-I was shocked at how big the difference between two practically identical horns was. First off, the modern 3BS definitely sounded more slotted into place and “sat” on high notes better. BUT the tone quality of the older 3B SS was absolutely to die for. I loved how at softer dynamics it was incredibly buttery and conversely at louder dynamics it was almost crackly whilst still keeping a lid on the “brightness.” On the other hand, the modern 3BS’s tone was more consistent in terms of brightness and harmonic profile throughout dynamics. Probably plenty of people’s cup of tea, but not mine.
Yep. The new one has more open sound . And feels like it's easier to blow
The 57 Silver Sonic is slightly more mellow. The new King slots just a bit more firmly in the upper register. Both sound excellent. Either horn would play superbly in a small dance band - and once the player got used to either one, the sound would be indistinguishable between the two.
I need to get a new, or newer, horn over my '54 Student Olds, but alas, my skill level does not justify it - part of the peril of taking up the horn again at eighty, 3 months ago. (I have forgotten Everything) OTOH, this horn was $185 in 1954 when my momma bought it for me, which would be $1727 today according to the calculator. Apparently being a student was more expensive back then.
Great sound, on both as a matter of fact. Just a comment on the current state of production for King trombones - which I think is more the concern of craftsmanship in old versus new. I have purchased two new King tenors in the last 6 years, the first 2103PLG had to go back for refinishing under warranty due to oil artifacts under the lacquer, however, it came back beautiful and still sounds great. The second one, a 2BPLG purchased in December of last year I wish I could have kept but there were burs and nicks on the slide, probably from over buffing the brass before lacquering and there was thick excess solder between the bell brace flange and the bell. That being said, King parts are great and some of the best quality in the industry, but the assembly needs work. The quality of Bach horns coming out of the same factory is far superior to the Kings. I would pay a premium over the current pricing structure for a high-quality meticulously constructed new King trombone. I wish I could see it differently, but it's already happened twice to me.
I bought a 3BG Legend two years ago. The slide was awful. King then kindly send 3 more slides to try: all were just awful. Since I had to order the horn before playing it, I know, bad idea, but I had relied upon King's reputation. I finally had to send the slide to a slide specialist who explained that the slide had been mis-assembled. The brace was actually making the slide have crooked geometrics. All that said, at an addition cost of $500, I have a great sounding horn with a less than satisfactory slide. Maybe I should have traveled far to find a better slide, or purchased a Yammie or a Bach. I am kinda stuck with it. Please learn from my mistakes: try it first. Don't the King name until you try it.
Bit late to the thread but I could tell that the vintage sounded brighter and from what the mic was picking up sounded to project more.
Thanks so much for the feedback!
Without a doubt the warmer, rounder 57 Silversonic. Beautiful horn.
Vintage sounds warmer / darker. I currently have a 1961 King 3B SilverSonic, and a 1963 2B SilverSonic. Both slides are super smooth and sound great. I also picked up a valve section for the 3B and it plays beautifully as well.
The vintage horn definitely has more character. I’ve been playing a 1960’s H.N.White 2B Silversonic steadily since I bought it new in my college days... beautiful sound and fabulous slide. Biggest criticism is the inconsistency in slide positions through the upper partials, but any horn has that to one degree or another.
Thanks for the feedback; I haven't had a chance to play a 2B Silver Sonic but based on the horns I have played from that era I am sure it is great!
Keith...you provide a wealth of sincere assessments of the horns you share with us. A wealth of info!
Love watching you at work.
I have personally found that what you have experienced on several horns...including Conn88HO... to be spot on!
PS great playin’
God bless.
Yes true,I have both SS Aniv and gold bell
Thanks for watching!
I play a silver sonic from '78 and obviously i am very used to the sound, but even here in the comparison i like the sound of the vintage more.
Thanks for making this video.
Glad you enjoy it!
Very close but I think I liked the newer horn's sound better. Just a warmer and more consistent tone. Silver Sonic sounds maybe a little more appropriate for "Getting Sentimental" though.
Both very nice, the new model was as you described a bit warmer the 1957 had more ring to it ...I want both 😬
So I’m pretty 50/50 on vintage horns. my own opinion was that the vintage “sound” was going to fit that older jazz of when it was created. some of the examples felt very “fitted” for that sound especially in the high register. And I think honestly the music of that period had an effect of how they crafted their horns, vs. how modern horns are made. It almost feels like the craftsmen had a specific purpose of what coloration people wanted back then and into today.
Indeed. I was thinking that, too.
To me personally I always feel that new is going to be best if we are talking about a company that actually has good QC and uses more modern ways of manufacturing than the old ways. IE handmade vs CNC. That dual bore thing in a 2b for instance. There is no way they manage to get .485/.495 every single time down to the infinitesimal measurements that a CNC can. Not to mention the wear on inner slide tubes of an old horn vs new.
To my ear, there isn't a great deal of difference between the two. I owned a 1970-ish Silversonic w F attachment in high school, and I sure do wish I hadn't sold it. I'm 67 years old now, and I'm playing more trombone than ever before. I have several nice horns (incl a brass bell 3b), but that's still my "spirit" instrument. I enjoy all your videos- thanks!
The Silver Sonic Sounded Way Warmer on this end with good headphones on the lyrical tunes. the last piece you played with the short notes in the upper register they sounded much the same and bright. I play both a 1940's Martin Committee and 1947 Olds Studio for Jazz and a 1980's Bach 42O with thayer for my legit / symphonic, which are pretty extreme in Warm vs Bright tambours.
IOn my speakers, the tone color of the vintage was "softer," perhaps not as articulate and bright as the newer horn, but more to my preference. I have been revisiting Curtis Fuller after his recent passing. He always seemed to me to maintain a perfect balance of tone and I wonder what someone of his approach would say. What do you think? I am in the market for a horn, especially a bass trombone and tend towards the older models. Thanks a lot. It was a humbling pleasure hearing you play!
The 57 instrument had a warmer quality and more lower and middle resonance in al registers.
Hey Keith, Great demo!
Thank you sir!
After listening to you play, I prefer the sound of the new King 3S to the vintage Supersonic. The newer trombone has a warmer sound to my ear.
I like the older ones the best. I have two 1930’s H. N. Whites that I love. The one has a slightly longer slide and shorter bell sections than other trombones. It made it difficult to find a case for it. The other trouble I had was finding a mouthpiece I liked with them until I tried an H. N. White one from the 20’s. My newest is a Conn (1954?) 50h.
I gotta say, both sounded great in your hands for different reasons. The 3BS being so mellow, though, I'd worry about it cutting in a big band when I needed it to, and I wouldn't use it for much else, so I'd have to give the nod to the Silver Sonic for my purposes. I could see someone who spends a lot of time playing to an audience through a mic preferring the 3BS, though!
I liked the old horn a little better but both are great. I came here as I have had one with the f attachment since 1971 so I'm no doubt going to be a little biased.
Of all of the horns I have gotten to play I have yet to be play a Silver Sonic with F-attachment; I'm sure it is a great combination!
I have a 2103F 3B silver dual bore, perhaps it’s nearly 20 years old. It’s great small bore for all ranges, perfect for horn section, blending with tenor sax / trumpet or Flugel. Love it’s versatility
the model 2166 in C is the most loved and desired by the band musicians in México 🇲🇽🎶
ignoring the style difference. sentimental was CLEARLY more apt on the 50s horn
Keith could make a garden- hose with a tin can for a bell sound good ,, both sound nice thanks
I’m not sure about that but thanks for the compliment!
I BET THE OLDER ONE IS A LITTLE HEAVIER IN WEIGHT .
The Silver Sonic had more warmth and resonance than the new 3BS.
1957 has a gorgeous sound. Vintage horn wins.
Thanks for watching!
57 more core. Better thicker high Db. Maybe, better quality silver, or maybe just more actual silver. BS has a thiner sound. Not to my taste.
Thanks for the comment!
I may be biased but I like the sound of the Silversonic better. It sounded better in the more melodic parts you played. As for personal experience, I have not tried any newer horns made today, but I did purchase a 2b made during the UMI years and thought it to be terrible. It had no resonance and just felt flat and uninteresting to play. It was a ebay find and I actually thought the student King Cleveland 605 I grew up playing was a better horn. I put it up for sale on ebay and bought a silver king 3b with the f attachment made in the early 70's and still have it today. It's far superior to the 2b I got rid of.
1957! Landslide
Keith u make them all sound good , does anyone know where to get a lighter king slide like the one WAyne HEnderson played in the Crusaders it looks thinner walled. Maybe just vintage thanks
Hello, I ask you what is the sale price of the king3B 1957 ... thanks
Unfortunately this particular 3B has sold already; typically Silver Sonics of this era sell in the $1200-$1500 range...
The 1957 Silver Sonic was softer in the tone. The new 3BS sounded more sharper.
The vintage is more centered. Is the throat slightly smaller on the 57.
I vote for the '57 SilverSonic. More complexity, so the player has a wider palette of tone colors.
Full disclosure: I own a 60's 3B SilverSonic
I play a lot with Rock bands and need punch and volume. I've played on a King 2B Silvertone (H.N. White) for years and have found it did the job perfect. The 3BS is a beautiful horn but is a bit too mellow and rounded for me. B.T.W. I recently bought a Shires Michael Davis tenor T.B. and now I won't play anything else. It does it all for me.
Thanks for the comment! Sterling silver can be great for adding depth and warmth to ones sound but it can be over the top and some players feel that it can take more work to get it to respond. BTW I really like the nimbleness and versatility of the Davis!
What was the first song you played
same
57 3B no contest!
The vintage horn by a nose.
Silver Sonic All the Way.
Did you use the original mouthpiece?
I did not; I am a proponent of fitting the mouthpiece to the instrument but when it comes to initial trials I tend to stick with my standard gear so that I am not putting too many variables into the mix...
1957 sounded a bit better over all
The 1957 King is the better instrument.
What is your recording gear and process? (before yootoob corrupts it all. 🤪)
In this video I was using my iPhone and I might have been using a basic Zoom mic. We have recently upgraded our system and we are now using an AKG C214 condenser mic with a Lumix HDR camera, recording with OBS and editing in Adobe Premier. I am still learning how to use it all but I have been happy with the upgrade thus far...
Old one sounds good. New one crap.
Thanks for watching!
The silver sonic wins the crown!
Is anyone making a quality silver trombone these days? (The comment about “King brand” build quality concerns me)
BAC in kansas city does. Christipher Bill does a review.
S.E. Shires offers sterling silver bells; I have not had a chance to play a sterling small bore tenor but I have played a bass bell and it was magnificant!
Tim Scofield ha! I’ve been drooling over the new BAC Christopher Bill trombone since he announced it. 😄
Schmitt Music Trombone Shop I do like those Shires trombones! I think one in silver would be my ideal. I hadn’t realized that they made one. Thanks!