The Way We Use Torches in D&D Is All Wrong
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- čas přidán 4. 02. 2022
- The way we use torches in D&D is dumb. SEEDS OF DECAY - Back this level 1 to 8 adventure module on Kickstarter today ▶▶ www.kickstarter.com/projects/...
Has it ever struck you as curious the way D&D adventure modules depict the use of torches? Such as having torches spread throughout an entire castle or dungeon and lit at all times of day and night. Ever wonder if perhaps the way we use torches in Dungeons & Dragons perhaps doesn't make a whole lot of sense? In this video, I discuss why the way we use torches to light dungeons is ridiculous and ahistorical, AND share a better way to illuminate the dark places of our D&D games.
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It's so comforting knowing the people I watch actually know what their talking about.
When you mentioned enclosed candles and oil lamps, I got chills.
But, when you brought up brigandine...NSFW... Jk, lol.
Love your videos, keep up the good work.
What about Continual Flame? a rich person could cast that on a stick, and make a permanently burning torch that doesn't use any fuel, create smoke, or consume oxygen
Your point about flashlights in a power outage reminded me of how I was raised to make sure to turn the lights off in any room that was not being actively used. A knuckle to the crown of the head is a good reminder!
I still keep unused lights and appliances off when not in use, decades later.
Why are you peeking in my house as i light it a back pack of flashlights?
As a history enthusiast who grew up in an area with many, many ruined castles - this was a very satisfying rant. (Funnily enough, in all those castles I can’t recall seeing a single torch sconce…)
Candles instead?
Candles, oil lamps, fireplaces, windows...
@@awmperry That said the idea of a castle filling up with smoke from constantly burning torches could be a fun touch if the inhabitants don't need to breathe, and find the reduced viability and breathing difficulties suffered by living things advantages when it comes to defending said lair...
@@bevthorne6030 Oooh, I could do something with that...
What your saying is players should suffer smoke dmg from carring tourches inside lmao dm: "and how are you lighting up the room so you can see?" Player "im using a tourch we all are" dm "oh really......?"
"You get to the end of the torchlit dungeon and find the villains coffers empty because he spent all his money on torches and labor to maintain them"
Continual Flame: "A flame, equivalent in brightness to a torch, springs forth from an object that you touch. The effect looks like a regular flame, but it creates no heat and doesn't use oxygen. A continual flame can be covered or hidden but not smothered or quenched."
Came here to say this
A 2nd level spell that requires 50gp (same cost as a horse, equivalent to $3k-5k) worth of ruby dust, which the spell consumes each time it’s cast, is a very expensive solution to a problem that only requires a simple oil lamp.
@@tomgartin yeah, but if I'm rich enough to afford a castle, I'm sure I can afford the cost of this spell to illuminate the common areas
Yeah, was gonna say, this is an 11-minute video about how he forgot Continual Flame exists. And it helps that it's permanent until dispelled.
Still dumb that they'd have so MANY, but the fuel/smoke point was silly.
@@SamWeltzin he didn't bring it up in his rant, but it's not something he necessarily forgot about. Icewind Dale never mentioned it, either, and that's more concerning to me
My players befriended a tribe of sewer kobolds. As a side thing, the Spore druid got them a job maintaining the lamps he installed in the lower wards of the city. A luminous fungus from the sewers. He got them a lamplighters guild charter and everything, bringing them out of the shadows and incorporating them into city governance. So now version of lower Sharn is lit by magical fungus. Mostly dim light except for right next to the posts, but ubiquitous. And unlike the eternal flame spells that have been installed hundreds of years before, no one steals these.
Aside from the mentioned issues with torches, we have to consider that D&D is a high fantasy setting with magic being omnipresent. There are so many cheap spells, cantrips, effects and magical items that can produce light without the consumption of fuel or the emission of smoke, you might expect a castle owner to have access to some of these ways. Not to mention a lot of races have darkvision anyways.
I agree, but they will still have disdvantage if total darkness and can't see in colors
HIGH FANTASY??? DND is supposed to be LOW FANTASY, VERY LOW GRITTY FANTASY
they have high magic settings available but still.
i really think it would be much more interesting and realistic in the world if still inhabited places used magical lighting sources for the more used rooms than torches.
@@itsmebeter3538 ive made some method of this with heaters, to copper wiring, to the streetlights people will see on the surface.
In thief 1 and 2, there's these machines that are never explained that seem to gather energy from the aether itself and then put to a generator of sorts which is used for the machine lighting.
no it doesnt need to be explained, but if asked, give soemthing more than "magic" for them.
@@elgatochurro by level 4 ur supposed to have a magic item and probably fought not only humans. wouldnt call that low fantasy.
A couple of strategically placed Continual Flame spells with the rest of the castle being dark is realistic.
Yeah you can just use these around because they light everything till the end of time. (And if you really want to since you are the DM you can just make this spell a 1st level spell and does not require a ruby that it consumes so you can make the excuse as to how every dungeon can have these everywhere.)
@@steelcooley5190 3rd and 4th ed had these. They where called Everburning torch. 3e it was 110gp and 4e it was 50gp. I know rules for 5e magic item creation are vague but it's not unthinkable to make these in 5e
@@steelcooley5190 Conversely, light is a nice tactical tool to use by both the DM and the players. The cheap nature of light completely undermines the DMs agency when creating exciting or perilous encounters.
@@mcfaning it was a common torch with continual flame cast on it... 5e that spell is 50 gp (ruby) +30 (phb says 10-50 so an average).. it is a silly "magic item" as it is one with a permanent spell cast on it.
I rather not have the place lit. I would rather have patrols and servants with their own light source that the party can use to spot them coming so they can be tactical about how they move around the place during the night. During the day it would be dim lit, with lot of hiding spots because of the shadows.
The castle has to have torches throughout to prevent random encounters spawning within
Everyone knows that cold darkness invites the undead. And everyone knows it because it's true! Things leak out of random portals to the Shadowfell all the time! Especially in sites of death, pain, stress & misery, IE: what goes on at castles with a gaol.
A noble who can count on family ties & the labor of hundreds of peasants & the taxes of dozens of merchants can afford to keep Shades away from his stronghold. Because if he can't, he's going to die horribly.
Minecraft ref
Shadiversity made a solid video on how medieval structures would handle their lighting. Long-term lighting would be handled with candles or lamps/lanterns, while torches would be used as a temporary light source (such as when you're walking outside to investigate a strange noise).
In fantasy? They'd be using magic lights if there wasn't some kind of restriction that prevents them.
That would be a funny scene. The players are sitting in a dungeon, licking their wounds after a hard fought battle, and this guy strolls by with a wheel barrow and starts switching out the torches.
A like the clock winder in West Wing, she does not answer any questions about the dungeon.
Or even during the battle the guy with the wheelbarrow rolls in & switches the torches, whistling to himself.
And here I thought you were going to talk of the wonder of mostly ignoring party torch-management to increase the convenience and fun-factor. The one D&D campaign I played seemed overly obsessed with party lighting and treasure-carrying capacity. Fun stuff, especially since at level 1 we were spending session time renting horses and crafting candles.
One thing to keep in mind for a game like that is the existence of Rushlights as the primary medieval light source.
Yeah ngl that sounds boring af. I don't make my players keep track of stuff like arrows or torches. Once in a while I just say they bought some while in town or made some and have them mark the gold cost off. Now if it's a survival type game then yeah resource management is a big part of that, but regular dnd doesn't need all that.
@@themeanlesbeann Adding struggle and a touch of mundanity to humanize these super powered characters is awesome in "regular d&d" though! Of course it isn't _needed_ for the types of games most people play, but that can be said for tons of other individual aspects of play. So I'm not quite sure what your point was exactly. Unless it was just different strokes for different folks?
@@PhyreI3ird I've never had a player at my table want to micro manage their non-magic consumables. That's just not something the majority of players find fun. They don't care for the mundane, their real lives are full of it, they want to have fun playing a game where they're powerful and cool. But hey if your players like that then to each their own.
@@themeanlesbeann I realize now that I misunderstood the OP. I see now they were probably being sarcastic about the "fun stuff" part, so I was confused at first why you were saying all that lol
I guess I saw what I wanted, cuz I as a player just get a huge kick out of stuff like that. It's a way to ground the fantasy experience and help connect with your character on a more human level by having a bit of shared mundanity that's made inherently cooler since it's always to the ends of having adventures in a cool/intriguing world that feels more real from that grounded experience.
Real castel were lit by candles inside and sometimes torches outside. Torches special giant torches were used on parties outside but thats it. Then again this is not our world so the burning time of a torch can be whatever we want it to be.
Yep and candles last hours and have little ill effects... And it would be silly to have every guest carry a torche with them in the middle of the day when the internal rooms are always blocked from day light.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough There are even historical uses of candles as clocks because the candle is made to last a whole day and the amount of wax melted away is marked with the hour. not really that accurate for telling time but you only need to change the candle once a day.
@@thedullohanvids And it could be a hint for players when they see some candles with wax melted in abandoned dungeon that mean is not to abandoned at all
Sure you can have the burn time of a torche be whatever you want it to be but without it being a spell or something it just feels wierd, like what if your dm told you "You only have to eat once a year, you can get stabbed in the heart and not die, and no one can hear you say something unless you want them to hear", its like, yeah sure you can say that but in dnd you suspend disbelief and get immersed because although its not real its still a plausible world, where the weave allows people to manipulate the world and such and there are monsters that all have magical or nonmagical explanations for why they exist, but when you start saying "just cause" it takes a lot of people out of the game because it just seems nosnsensical rather than magical at that point
@@zacharycasey150 You mean like this guy takes half damage from a stab just cause his really angry?
its dnd though not medieval times but fantasy medieval times.
In a castle it woudnt be weird for the rich folk to just fill the entire castle with torches that have continual flame cast on it. lots of dungeons could have the same thing going on depending on their previous owner (Magic users).
Can definitely see a mage having every room lit. because only plebs carry light with them. its easier to move about without having to think about carrying light. It also elimenates the chance of suprise attacks since there is no shadow to hide. If your continual flame torch suddenly is turned of that raises some questions aswell.
Do agree that as dm its your job to not always having everything lit. so players have to think about those situations.
d&d was never medieval that's a misconception. Its much closer to the 1600's tech wise. We know they have all the major technology of our 1600's and magic. For example they have full printing presses making books and newspapers.
Having used torches (cloth wrapped sticks dipped in used motor oil) for light before, I can tell you they last roughly 1 to 1.5 hours. They are super unsafe for indoors though.
There's cleaner fuels for torches than using motor oil which produces lots of smoke
@@Tinmann_77 Oh certainly. I however was out in the country and much younger at the time, so that was not even remotely on my mind.
The most advance tourch I use was stick with crown shape container on top and small fuel canister with knot dipped in it.
Medevil torches burned up to 4 hours... Pitch burns very slowly... Though castles were lit with candles, sconces and Braziers
I did an ancient pyramid dark inside except for a couple important rooms with Eternal Flame braziers. Sconces for oil lamps in the other rooms but the oil was gone and the wicks had long since rotted
Just stole your idea and description! Using it in my game on Friday!
At this point you're brushing up against
"and your shoes wear off after 10 days travel and your weight limit must be carefully watched at all times and you can't parry with your sword properly if you carry X weight of items".
at some point you have to allow these abtractions to let the players have fun without turning the game into a fantasy spreadsheet simulator for monitoring the wear and tear of items and light sources.
Sounds like it’s a job for animated skeletons, constantly refilling torches, so when the party shows up and see the Skelton with 1,000,000 torches in a wheel barrow, slowly climbing a ladder to change out the torches, too busy to fight the party of adventures because it’s master wants the whole place lit up for a Galla. Lmao
Reminds me of a world-building idea I read about where necromancy isn't seen as evil but as a way to get free labor.
Like, there's a whole economic structure around it. For example, a person signs a loan from a wizard and there's a clause that if they die before they pay it back, the wizard has permission to animate their body and have them work off the debt after death.
@@davidvines3883 thats actually done with geb in pathfinder 2e, the country of geb uses low-level undead monsters for labour because they don't have a mind of their own.
@@theinformantky9332 Cool! Never played Pathfinder. I may have to research that. Time steal, uh, I mean... "artistically borrow" some world-building ideas!
Sure but the spell to animate skeletons is expensive. You could just get Permanent Light spells for less!
Seems easier to just have the skeletons be on fire.
Players: Lets just open torch manufactory. We ll be rich in no time!
The homebrew Lumberjack character's eyes turn into lil wooden dollar signs
Torches were actually very rarely used in castles. They had a very short life actually. I’m like what Hollywood pics which they took from actually role-playing games which made lots of assumptions.
I forget which you tuber did a very nice video on it. Castles were usually lit by candles. Or lanterns with candles in them. This prolonged life and was a slow burn. The illumination was not unlike a nightlight in luminosity. Only of course the wick of the candle was flickering causing dancing lights on the wall or rather dancing shadows.
Kudos for doing this video
Metatron, Shadivercity, Skalgrim have all done videos on the matter, am sure. Likely more too
Probably thinking about Lindybeige. He did some before anyone else that I know of. I like how he points out how people in movies bring up a torch *in front* of their faces to get a better look at something. lol
@@Pyrela Ah how could I forget Lindy.
I generally dont have everything lit by torches. If I do, it is specifically to make a point to the players cause the torches are actually just sticks made up to look like torches with Continual Flame cast on them, to tell the PC's that the person is mega rich.
It would be pretty funny to have a campaign that integrated this concept. The party has to stealth their way into a castle or keep that is surrounded by open fields of felled trees to fuel this torch consumption. The party has to sneak past the servants that are constantly replacing torches, etc.
Re: making sure that the flue is open... when I was in high school, our Choraliers group did a week-long tour every year. One of our overnight stops was at a cabin with a fireplace, so we wanted to make sure that the flue was open.
Long story short, I borrowed a compact from one of the young ladies and used the mirror like half of a periscope to ascertain that yes, the flue was open.
Wow. This was my favorite video here in a while. Loved it! Thanks for shedding some light 😅 on this issue, Luke. Hopefully people can use this to improve the quality of their dungeons. This also gives clear reason as to why the continual flame spell is so useful. A well lit dungeon is indicative of a moderately powerful spellcaster within. Or at least one who has been there for a long long time.
Also, it's Icewind Dale. It's perpetually dark or dim light ALL THE TIME and it's always cold. Using flames over magical means makes sense in that setting. Though the flames could also be a minor spell.
The house that I grew up in had a fireplace. My dad loved chopping wood and my mom loved building fires for it. Though for me that was one of the biggest pain-in-the-asses I had to deal with growing up, and I'll be more than content never to see where those pieces of s*** called the fireplace in any house that I ever live in ever again!
An open fire is a great way to heat a room, but cleaning the bastards was a bloody nightmare.
The triviality of the "everburning torch" in D&D-as-written makes this kind of a non-issue, I'd think. If it's a magical torch that always burns, one can assume it also doesn't produce tons of ash and smoke. (Whether or not you want everburning torches in your game is another issue...)
Of course, magic changes the whole game ;)
If you assume that magic everlasting torches exist, what would be the method of creating them? Is there a spell that could do this?
Is it available to the PCs?
@@hermes7587 Continual flame, second level spell, consumes a 50gp ruby on casting.
@@hermes7587 I'd say it'd probably fall under the more open rules of creating a magical item not from a particular spell. More up to DM discretion
@@hermes7587 There were rules for it in 3E, I haven't looked into it for 5E. In 3E they were 100 gp magic items, so I'd call them "common" in 5E parlance.
Having enough torches to light up a castle would make sense, if all the torches were in the same room, with like 2-4 braziers, so a guard (or group of guards) coming through can grab a torch, light it and continue on their patrol, if they end up running into an enemy, they should slap that torch into the nearest sconce or other object capable of holding one so they can fight with both hands free.
Though in Dragon's Dogma, I think most guards carry lanterns that can be hooked onto their belts and can be fairly quickly snuffed/ignited as needed, which if we assume each guard carries enough oil on them to make the lantern last ~8 hours then there is no need for torches at all since each guard would have on them enough oil for multiple shifts, as braziers or other sources with more longevity can be used during the night in areas where non-guards frequent.
07:45 ff "Carry a torch WITH you."
It just occurred to me, you could carry a torch with you, and when you get to a room where you find a torch that is not lit, you could leave your lit torch and take one of the unlit torches in a wall sconce.
But any Magic User would have Continual Light with Permanence cast upon a copper, silver, gold or platinum piece, and have that placed on a wall or affixed to a lantern or even an unlit torch, and any dragon or king would be able to BUY such items for all his lighting needs.
Shadiversity had a similar rant. This was brought home after a several day power outage. I've spent time imaging how major fantasy cities run in the winter keeping warm and lit. Definitely make the Continual Light spell actually valuable.
My 4 part plan when i played a non darkvision dragonborn barbarian:
1: describe and establish that I wear a sturdy belt right on session 1
2: purchase a hooded lantern, no oil needed here
3: bribe someone to learn continual flame and let them cast it into the lantern, u need some ruby dust though, ur chance to be a bro and pay for it
4: attach the lantern to my belt, when no light is needed throw it in my backpack, usually dm's even let you use the hood as normal and the spell creates no heat either
This way you still have both hands free and the flame lasts until dispelled.
"Studded armor never existed"
I see someone's been watching Shad
In a current campaign I'm running, one of the paths they may take (depending on which faction they side with) leads them to the castle of a vampire lord. I had initially thought of the torches magically lighting as they enter and extinguishing as they leave each area, but decided it would be more fun if I have a random encounter table. One of those encounters is just a servant traveling down the halls with a wheelbarrow full of torches, replacing and relighting all the torches. That's that servant's one job. All day and night, they just make their rounds replacing all the torches. By the time they've finished, they have to replace the first again.
Just use candles to light the castle just enough, not everybody in the castle has a hand free to carry it with them. If you want to put some light in the dungeon you can put candles on tables or in the middle of a hallway.
In 5th edition the standard "Torch" lasts 1 hour, the cantrip "Light" lasts 1 hour and is no brighter then a "Torch" so unless your using the spell "Continual Flame" which lasts forever and is no brighter then a "Torch" with the drawback of the cost to cast the spell of 50 gold per casting in ruby dust which is consumed in casting so no casting it over and over folks.
Also torches suck at lighting. They are awesome for starting fires, such as if you want to burn down the tavern, but they're bad for finding your way through the darkness.
Not to mention that in pitch darkness you only need a tiny amount of light to get the "lay of the land" for the size of rooms most castles had. Plus most castles were people's homes, and they would have known the layouts well enough to probably be able to navigate around hallways without lights if they needed to.
For anyone that doesn't live in a country with castles, the majority were relatively small, with very very thick walls so the rooms were also small, you didn't often get the huge halls that you see in most fantasy, with a few exceptions like Warwick or Caernarvon in the UK. Plus a lot of castles have been basically rebuilt by later generations to make them bigger and more impressive.
Thank you! Rush lights were common, cheap lamps. Castles, of course, did have servants who went around lighting, changing, & (at bedtime) extinguishing candles in chandeliers (they could be lowered to do this, and cutting the rope securing a heavy chandelier should be a handy sort of attack). For walking around, people carried lanterns and oil lamps. Big, sputtering torches were an outdoor thing. Of course, in a fantasy castle, continual light & continual flame lamps would be a thing.
I can easely imagine a smoke based vilain do the torches thing and having tons of smoke to use against the pcs.
Whenever electricity goes out, I just place a few candles around the house while having a flashlight on myself, and I've never had an issue with smoke, but I agree that torches might pose a problem.
Medieval torches usually lasted several hours, but they were specially made, being large with a slow burning wick dipped in fuel, like a tiki torch. They were often used outdoors for ventilation. Most indoor lighting would be either candles, or slow burning candlewicks, fed in long strips through a small desktop sconce. Burnt wicks would be clipped off the end of the holder as they were used up, and then more wick-strip fed through the holder.
Or they could pay 50 GP per torch once and never worry about it with continual flame spells from your court wizard, avoiding the fire and smoke hazards. It would be expensive but probably less expensive than paying for an army of servants to perpetually change the torches, and it would be a huge flex on foreign visitors.
Its not even expensive torches cost 1 cp and last 1 hour a single continual flame torch costs 50gp the same as what you'd spend for in 2 months if you only used a torch 8 hours a day to light the night. Torches quickly become incredibly expensive and time consuming.
@@Dragonspassage Also having to pay the employees to change them every hour.
Also you might want to mention that when you go to get your flashlight, you can get there without tripping falling and bumping into walls because you live there and know the layout by hand. There will certainly be areas of the castle where others inhabit that would probably have there own hearth/ fireplace. Guards would be huddled in dimly lit areas around a brazier of coals with a torch nearby to light up and area should a noise be heard. Hell if they lived/worked there long enough they might not even need light to hit the toilet areas... or if they did it would be with a lit piece of twine.
wrt the power outage scenario - and being an 18th C re-enactor -- having stayed in MANY historical barracks (Fort Niagara, Fort Ticonderoga, Fort Makinaw &c.) -- candles or lamps -- so you're correct about torches.. but every room would have at least one candle or tallow lamp or a fire place or a brazier .. and when we have a power outage -- one candle for the bathroom, two for the dining room, two for the kitchen and one for the stair way -- and a wooden lamp to take with us... someone owning or occupying a castle has the resourses ($$$) to pay servants to light the place and also buy candles from candle makers -- tallow candles -- the cheap mans candle are readily available as it was a means for the poor to make money.. or if you could afford it go to an apiary/monestary and buy beeswax.. cheers -- love your vids -- from an OLD DM (since 1984) LOL
I have thought about this. I think things like hooded lamps and candles (which can burn for a fairly long time compared to a torch) would be a bit more prevalent. I like hooded lamps because different light sources can be placed in them, such as candles or objects/ crystals with a light spell cast on them. In my world i have several low level wizards and apprentices/ servants who have been trained to cast light, and most nobles would have the equivalent of a flashlight in their room or maybe on them for emergencies ( perhaps a gem of brightness encased in a small scroll tube that is capped). I like the idea of light being a valuable resource in the world like it is in Shadowdark.
I enjoy making color based traps, also I like the Skyrim approach of braziers filled with coals
"do you fill your house with lit flashlights" no but I have a special lightbulb that charges up in a lamp and then you can screw it into a special hook with a button on it that'll keep it on without being plugged in, then we hang it in the kitchen and grab it if we need to take it elsewhere
The Fighters helmet in the skits…the studded leather discussion…suspicions of a SCAdian are getting stronger
Confirmed. I was in SCA while studying at the University of Michigan.
Great, enjoyable rant which brings us neatly to how expensive glass would be in pseudo medieval societies.
There's always horn and parchment, though.
Just read a module that had burning torches lining the wall of a secret basement tunnel. A secret basement tunnel of witch NOBODY knew the entrance!
I wanna add one thing:
If one wanted to permanently light up there place, there are options.
The spell continual flame exists, which makes a permanent, magical light source.
And yes, it costs something on cast, but depending on for how long you plan to have your castle, the fuel will add up fast.
Another thing: the light cantrip exists.
Having one person just running through the castle, casting light on a "torch" at every corner is STILL MORE EFFICIENT than torches.
Also, it should not be to hard to affix the light cantrip in an magical item or a rune, that you can activate by clapping.
After all, dnd is not just a medival setting. It's a setting with magic. And the people in it are gonna use it.
Had an NPC wizard back in 3rd edition, pre 3.5. He dropped out of school during his 3rd year of 5 as a third level wizard and he made a living... Making torches with ... continual flame. Traveling salesman. It was the corniest thing but, he existed because I too had issue with castles and dungeons filled with lit, burning torches for no reason except bad writing and unintelligent creators. Thank you for the trip down memory lane.
For my session tonight I’m putting a torch in it that is a sentient old man named “Ol’ Smokey”. They can light it once a day and it will stay lit all day as long as it’s not put out and the wielder can continue to keep conversation with it (disadvantage on stealth checks). recharges once a day at dawn (:
Fun fact:Torches deal 1 point of fire damage RAW, so you can use it to shut down a troll's regeneration in a pinch
Clerics used to cast a continual light spell on the top of their helmet.
And the helmet had a cap that could be put over the light. So they were walking work lights.
Then there was the "D&D flashlight.
Glue a cap on one end of a scroll tube.
Continual light on a copper.
Drop that in the scroll tube with a bit of glue.
Cap on, and no light.
Cap off and you have a narrow beam directional light source.
The replacement of continual light wit the flame that burns nothing... is problematic for these tricks.
Completely off topic, but... where did you get your shirt? I love it.
Played one adventure that made us rethink torches' as it was a series of long tunnels that had enemies at the other end of the tunnels in the dark. Along the tunnel was lit torches just like you would imagine in any other setting. the problem was they set them up to light us up and to keep them hidden. We couldn't target them with range weapons and couldn't get in close range to fight. We thought we had it down pat, but chose to flee and attack another day. With that said we chose to enter once again and snuff out the torches so they can't pull such shenanigans on us. Turned out all the crates beside the torches had a Kobalt with some TNT strapped to itself and if he sees the torch go out he lights his explosives under the crate. I never played a session that made me fear torches in my life such as this one and I will never look at them as simple wall decoration again.
funny thing, I never took the amount of fuel needed into an account while I was lighting up my entire castle and a few of my outposts in Valheim, and Resin being a common resource in that game, I didn't think much of how much I'd actually need. At one point I had a full chest of resin where I'd have to relight my base a few times but later in the game as I spent less time outside of the starting areas where resin is easy to come by, I diminished my entire stock relighting my entire base every time the lights would start going out. Now I have zero resin and would actually have to start grinding for it separately just to keep my base lit. And the problem with this too is that the resin burns faster than I can grind for it. I started realizing this when I'd go out, come back with a whole stack and all my lights would be burning out. It would then take me 5 minutes to go around each time relighting everything and I STILL don't have enough torches to light my whole castle. Luckily there's a mod where I can switch on and off the fuel consumption mechanic but yeah...the only logical reason I can think of entire castles being lit with torches all the time is magic...and these torches would have to be smokeless too.
The only real gripe that I have is that it actually makes sense in (Icewind Dale Rime of the Frostmaiden) to keep a large number of lights active, *because it is always night* due to Auril's everlasting rhyme. I will say that I agree that inside lighting is stupid to consistently be torches, like candles and brazier's, and oil lamps would all work much better. Love the content, and I run Icewind dale on wednesday's and it is very fun!
Mate, Shadviersty did a whole video on this. I highly recommend watching it if you more info on it.
So "studded leather" *did* exist; it was brigandine with the plates removed, stripped down to just the leather which still had the embedded studs to which plates could be reattached. It'd be like having a Kevlar vest that has a pocket to insert a ceramic armor plate, but you don't have the plate so you just wear the empty vest because it's still better than nothing.
This is a common problem in video games too. Like the MineCraft torches that burn for ever. I think for a fantasy game like D&D, one line in the module to fix all of this would be something like "These torches are slightly magical. Their flames will burn indefinitely unless the torch is removed from the wall." Maybe the flame comes back if the torch is returned, maybe it doesn't, depends on the module and what the DM decides.
The only place I would expect to be completely lit would be something like a wizard's tower if they spent the money for a lot of continual flame spells. Perhaps an academy where they made learning/casting the spell part of the student's coursework in enchanting or something like that.
But even still, I would assume that one would prefer to cast it inside of a basic lantern so that you can avoid buying oil for it. You could even specially make the lantern to be much smaller and clip onto a belt/sash/hat/ect for easy wearing. Toss on a small lid/latch to close it if you don't want the light and sell them for less than a year's worth of oil while still making a profit.
In a high fantasy setting, the utility of magic would solve the lighting problem. Of course, the cost would prevent a modern application of magic lights in every room or hallway. But a continual light spell could be used in a few locations.
I'd posit that if the castle is expecting to be invaded, they may light the entire castle to the best of their ability to aid their guard in catching the expected intruders. Other than that, lighting an entire castle, cave, hideout or lair is ridiculous. Another great video Luke!
I been watching videos on how to make torches and thinking of re doing them. Thank you
There's a 2nd lvl spell named "Continual flame" that makes it posible, however it costs 50 gp for each torch.
5k gold probably isn't too much for a person who owns a castle.
i'm in love with the righteous anger here. Honestly though - terrific take. Huge fan of your work, dude!!
Thank you! :D
5e has the Continual Flame spell
@@CooperAATE
5e consumes 50gp of ruby per instance.
This isn't immediately the solution you might be led to believe it is.
@@SCh1m3ra thats 2 months worth of torches if you only use them at night... so for 2 months of your torch budget light problems are solved forever...yes it is the solution.
@@Dragonspassage
4 assumptions:
1, rubies are plentiful (you in a mining town or off in the plains literal months from most civilization?)
2, continual flame is a known/legal spell in the campaign (depends on the table)
3, Darkness (as in spell) and antimagic don't exist to douse the flame (which, if the darkness is at the level of light, does)
4, thieves wouldn't appreciate your gear (more campaign dependence)
Also, depending on your party, 50gp/'torch' might be an ask, considering that it could be used for arms and armor as well, a moon-touched sword can both provide light and bypass a nonmagical weapon resistance for only 101-150-ish more gp. How much gp is on you?
Again, all of these depend on your table. If you're standardized and simplified, assumptions 3 and 4 are the only ones to display concern for. And that's if your dm spends too much time bothered by it.
Sometimes, however, these things can come up, logistics is something that affects every game, and sometimes they're weighted differently from one to the next.
Do bats exist in your campaign to make bat guano (a material component for fireball)? Is it a restricted substance because of aforementioned spell? What about diamond dust? Is 300gp of diamond dust still 300gp, or is it 1500gp because a syndicate is inflating its' value? What're the differences and why?
I repeat, continual flame is not the immediate shutdown one might think it is.
It's so comforting knowing the people I watch actually know what their talking about.
When you mentioned enclosed candles and oil lamps, I got chills.
But, when you brought up brigandine...NSFW... Jk, lol.
Love your videos, keep up the good work.
I was a "smart" with my chimney as well a few years ago. 🤣
Before i watch the video I want to mention continual flame when a destroyed dungeon has torches I assume they are continual flames. In game lighting is a huge thing for me I've sat down and done the math and in no world does anything but continual flame light sources make any sense at all. It only takes 2 month for a torches only used at night to cost more than a permanent one. If the torch is used 24/7 to light a room it takes about 3 weeks for continual flame to be the cheaper option. This doesn't even factor in dealing with the smoke from torches.
Basically all light sources would be continual flames very quickly.
Luke is a Shadiversity fan confirmed
In a setting I've devised, there is a breed of fluorescent algae that lives in water. Miners cultivate pools of these in their mines and fill jars with the glowing water as a safe light source that doesn't give off fumes, burn off oxygen, or ignite any gas pockets.
Well RAW - A torch burns for 1 hour, providing bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet. If you make a melee attack with a burning torch and hit, it deals 1 fire damage.
My personal solution to lighting buildings or dungeons in my settings are magical light sources; the light cantrip exists for mage towers, magical lanterns which burn magical oil for far longer than torches, etc.
Many of the underground locations in the pre-written adventures have bio-luminescent moss or some other "natural" source of lighting.
In most other locations, I replace actual burning torches with basically a torch that has the Continual Flame spell cast on them, if it makes thematic sense. Otherwise I will strip away the lighting aside from the occasional oil lamp in frequently used halls and either fireplaces, lamps, candles or braziers in occupied rooms.
Torches are mostly limited to more of an emergency/disposable lighting option - when you've run out of oil for your lamp or you want to throw an illuminated object down a hole to see how deep it is. Only other use for them is when you need fire for some reason other than just to provide light, such as exploring a dark place in the frozen lands of Icewind Dale (torch provides some warmth).
Love the rant, though speaking of fuels, it really would depend upon what was being used to burn said torches.
Now the other question not asked, lights on is usually welcoming, who wants a group of adventurers to ever feel welcomed in a dungeon?
Thank you! This has been a rant of mine as well for years! The studded leather as well.
My question is why does 5e not have the Sunrods? I know of them from 4e and have always found it odd that they weren't made for 5e
But if the you don't keep it lit when your not there, monsters will spawn in your base.
A good rant about torches of which i totally agree ,i can only think the reason this is in D&D and other fantasy adventures is to make a Dm's life easier when a party has a mix of dark vision and normal vision characters
that last bit about studded leather, yea LOL. I don't have studded leather in my games, I have "reinforced" leather armor consisting of extra straps or bands of leather or thin chain attached
If all my lights and electricity go out, I get my walking candle holder. It's called a "blaker" in Dutch, Google thinks the English translation is sconce, but those are much bigger and mostly a wall fixture.
The "blaker" is specifically for walking around, like a medieval torch light. It's not a lantern either, only a small candle holder with a ring or handhold.
The DM's guide states that a torch burns for 1 hour. During a dungeon crawl, a single character would burn through 10 torches in less than a day. If characters conserved torches, they may be huddled closely with limited visibility. Obviously this pertains to characters without darkvision. Lanterns are a better option, for sure. Light spell rocks!
I designed a one-shot for 1st level characters starting in a dungeon. I didn't want to drop a Continual Flame item in the dungeon, because I try to limit magic items. So I described flames crawling across the entire ceiling, giving off no heart or smoke (continual flames). It was effective and a cool visual for the setting.
Fully agree, Studded leather is a lost in historical translation. It was Brigadier armor, what they should do is just swap them out as actual brigadier armor provided what they think studded provides
Dude! You're so close to 100k!
Great points and the torch thing has annoyed me in many video games. On the other hand, I try to avoid using real world history to define the fantasy world I am running. Meeting somewhere in the middle seems like the best approach.
Yeah. Real history is a great starting point, but then you figure out what changes makes the most sense for your expected level or realism, magic, fun and convenience and see where that takes you.
It’s especially weird that anywhere in Icewind Dale (granted I don’t know the exact context in the campaign book) would be expending fuel like that even if they had the capability. Resources are precious all around up there, and especially anything that can sustain a fire.
That said, I’d allow a location having a resident mage to be a sufficient explanation - as long as part of their daily duties is sustaining fire/illumination spells.
Historic castles were mostly dimly lit in the day by windows or arrow slits, and at night by fireplaces - particularly large fireplaces in great halls and such.
There is point when one needs to decide between simulation and game design. When creating the game, do you want to focus on making an accurate simulation of medieval fantasy? Or create a functional game system which is simple enough not to distract from the main focus of the game?
This is one of those things. Yes you could make every castle require you bring a torch unless there are windows and you’ve considered what direction the sun is coming from, etc. Then you could consider torch light length, where is considered low light, whether or not the torch would leave certain areas in shadow, whether there’s a fire hazard…
Or you could just let the whole thing be lit up and focus more on the actual dungeon.
Brigandine appreciation squad!
I always run Studded Leather as such, splint armor as brigandine with heavy limb protection.
Our current adventurers only use torches offensively. If we need to see, we use light spells.
We carry torches and oil to set places and foes on fire.
We also have a fighter with Dueling fighting style who likes hitting things with a torch and our DM has rulings for how many hits can apply extra fire damage before a torch is broken and put out.
Also, some targets have a chance to be set on fire to a minor degree, causing ongoing damage until extinguished.
There is "bezainted" armour which is small (coin-sized) pieces of metal attached to a cloth or leather backing. Not quite "studded leather" but sort of similar though maybe considered closer to a "light scale" armour.
AGREED! The other option you didn't bring up: If there's a VERY good reason (enough to justify the insane cost) to have the whole area lit, magic's a thing! It would be cheaper over time to just get enchanted lights rather than pay for a crew and fuel (but insanely expensive up front).
I've always said the same thing. Also, when a party brings their own torch and expect it to be still lit 5hrs later in the dungeon. Too many people (players and DMs) tend to ignore light mechanics a little too much.
Barstow historic hit points in medieval times. When somebody could get hit with a sword multiple times Direct Hit and never die
while I have never used or made a real torch I have always assumed they operated similar to candles. With pitch and oils as well as packed materials they burned much longer than just wood or wrapped in a pitch cloth. A candle burns so long because it burns the wax as a fuel. Oil lamps work in a similar way. Also this is a fantasy game and one of the most common magic items are everburning torch. Its so common its even listed in regular gear.
This vid just inspired a brainstorm: depending on the nature of the dungeon, if it is inhabited by a wizard or cleric (even, say, a goblin or orc shaman?), or someone able to secure the services of one.... Continual Flame, baby! Over a period of time, a castle or underground lair could be tricked out with magical torches or braziers with no fuel consumption, fire or smoke hazards.
I never assumed there'd be torches everywhere,
To me what you said made sense and that's how I always ran my castles and dungeons.
In caves there might've been torches at key locations,
But in general they weren't used much.
I mean it really depends, I wouldn't say the issue is that the whole place is filled with smoke per say, as you do require warmth any way you get in cold places... I think having a place filled with torches is absurd for the reason you listed above, which is fuel consumption, but for cold environment buildings for example like a cottage in Finland, I've heard (am Finnish) that a hundred years ago and before that, when electricity wasn't common at all, it was quite common that old houses might have the insides of the roofs all covered in soot as you need warmth some way regardless if the building had or did not have a chimney. It is for that reason that the first building they always built was a sauna, and the very same building had a lot of utility purposes besides "where people bathe" like drying foodstuffs and sleeping. Some parts of the buildings weren't warmed at all and all light sources were usually small candles. IIRC some very old rudimentary buildings were basically made that they had a source of heat in the middle of the floor and I can't quite recall if they had chimney (nothing fancy if they did, it was just a couple of air holes), but I do recall hearing that usually these buildings ceiling would just straight up covered in soot.
This became a rant, anyway it's an intriguing topic and I think WoTC and fantasy in general should think and discuss it in further detail overall.
Candles are better. Lanterns on sconces that are more oil/fuel conservative. Magic; continual flame for common areas. Or lanterns/candles for people entering less used areas.. lantern hooks on walls where people place their lanterns in rooms. Torches are not practice I agree. Other magic items like light spell permananatly cast on crystals in special chandeliers. Super bright bioluminescent fish in aquariums or mushrooms in crystal orbs.
A long metal curved bar attached to their backpack holding a lantern to keep the patrolling servant or guards hands free.
A bioluminescent pet that travels about with servants/guards like a glowing squirrel or cat.
Magical light runes that activate with a voice command and light up the ceilings (turn off /on) turned off when no one is in the room.
Get more creative and versilimitudious than ‘torches’ I agree. Still a great benchmark for brightness and area of illumination however.
In my world the "Lamplighter's Guild" has been replaced by the Continual Lighter's Group. Over time, the whole town is lit by continual light spells. This has gone on for years in spite of 5th Edition's removal of this awesome spell. Runs 24/7/365, gives a great radius of light, never goes out, once cast, it doesn't go away unless someone dispels the light or steals the light pole.
*The Custodians*
You venture into a large and imposing castle where no one is ever seen to leave or enter, but something (insert DM choice of plothook here, perhaps the flicker of torchlights always seen through the windows at night, or voices heard within) has brought you and your party to investigate this place. Fresh torches seem to decorate every room and hall of the maze-like structure. Despite being believed abandoned, every floor, window and wall shines clean, not a speck of dust nor dirt to be seen. Suddenly, your party hears calm footsteps and the squeaking of wheels approaching down a long hallway. It is (DM's choice of Warforged/construct, zombie, skeleton, etc.) Slowly making their way into the hall. The individual pushes a small cart, noticeably carrying a couple long poles and a large bucket. The individual pushes the cart behind it and brandishes one of the sticks which turns out to be a broom, and begins sweeping the floor in a very orderly, almost robotic matter with its back to the party.
What do you do?
An interesting story hook could be that the "big bad" of this place is actually long gone, their peaceful custodians cursed to continue their cleaning rounds for eternity, never to show aggression, unless attacked first....