Thank you for explaining the difference in the motors. I was going to try and save some money with the cheaper servo motor, but I’m getting a workhorse!
I have a brush type servo motor and don't have any of the issues that you show. I can control my needle on my Pfaff 545 as good as you can on your brushless. I personally don't think the sky is falling with brush types motors as you indicate.
Thank you for this video, I was just curious on the difference since I'm interested in a "home" sewing machine that has been introduced with a brushless motor. Now through your great explanation I can make my decision. Thanks again.
Thank you very much for making this decision much easier for me. I have a Consew 226 that has performed like a champ despite a harsh life before getting my hands on it. I am after complete control of the stitch and your video has been instrumental in making my decision on upgrading to a servo and finally replacing the old clutch motor. I have gotten pretty good at slowing it down but never to the point where I can count the stitches. Placing my order tonight and going with the Sailrite Workhorse! Thanks again for the in depth video comparison sir.
Excellent video. I just bought my first industrial machine, a clone of a Singer 211, and it came with a brushed servo motor. Initially I was surprised with how little control it gave me because I didn't understand the difference between the two servo motor types. Now I'm going to order a brushless motor with needle positioning and I hope it will be a big improvement. Thanks again.
Thanks for the fine work on this. I've used a Juki SC510 servo on my 1510n-7 for 14 yrs and love it. Recently picked up a Brother B837 for backup. It came with that brushed servo you have. Brand is Eagle but their seems to be many of the same but branded different. Found it hard to sew slow. Now that I want to upgrade to Needle positioner and brushless I wondered if the brushless would be better. thanks for showing that.
I haven't researched it but I don't believe a needle positioner would work on a brushed servo because a brushed servo nothing more than an electric motor
@@gmcxm211 Probably not cause they don't seem to offer them with brushed. Oh my Juki SC510 servo is 750 watts so this 3000 should be similar in performance.
Thank you for this comparison of the two these two types of servo motors. I agree with you, that the issue of slow speed control is important, and a well designed servo motor can help many sewing operators in this regard. I do know about Electric motors. I think, that the older type of servo motors for sewing machines typically was DC-motors internally with bruches, and they most likely have no internal sensor, that measures the shaft speed. The newer brushless motors with more Electronics have a sensor, that measures speed. This sensor will tell the Electronics about speed, and if it is too low, current to the motor is increased so torque is increased so the motor can regain correct speed. This can be done to a motor with bruches too, but it may be that it was not done for the motors sold for sewing. In my oppinion, I think it should be possible for the Workhorse to go even slower at lowest speed, and I am a Little suppriced that it is not made so it can go even slower. However I think it is better than many others on the market. I like to link to a thread from 2012 on leatherworker about control, where some people improved their servo motors. leatherworker.net/forum/topic/41483-servo-motor-mod-diy-easier-speed-control/?tab=comments#comment-258131 - and the control I got on my home modified domestic machine: czcams.com/video/fnH3TVF6J0w/video.html
Thanks for more of a detailed explanation, but for everyone else reading this, even though these motors have excellent slow speed torque, these motors are still only 3/4 hp and are limited on the size of sewing machine these should be used on. In my opinion the Yamata 5318, or the Consew 204 and 205 are the largest machines any 3/4 hp servo motor should be used for. The machines that are designed especially for leather work, there is a 1 hp servo motor that is rated for 750 watts. I haven't used one but I have two coming. One is for the Thor GC 1341 I have and a NMD 4420. The 3/4 hp is just a little too small for these bigger machines. When I get them I'll do a quick review.
In general, the hp value is a value for shaft power. 1 hp = 735.5 Watt. The funny think is, that many specifications on these motors give the same input electrical power specified for the servo motor - like 3/4 hp = 550 W. But the input electrical power will always be significantly higher than the output shaft power. For this kind of motor I should think, that a normal efficiency would be around 70 % at max power. 30% is then converted to heat loss. For many servo motors I do not know if the specified input power is wrong or the specified output shaft power is wrong. Shaft power in W can be be calculated by: Po [W] = Torque [Nm] x Speed[RPM] x 0.1047. So it depends of the speed rating at max power, how much torque the motor should have. Some motors can also provide a higher torque than rated for a short time, when the mean loading of the motor is not too high. This extra torque can be important to have on a sewing machine.
correct me if I'm wrong but brushless does not mean more torque or something familiar; it's just the transmission of power that does not use brushes so it lasts longer. I think either one motor has a better motor or there is a reducer already build in.
Kindly let me know, given a speed setting, would you be able to vary the speed with the pedal? Or, is it 0 or 100% speed only? for example, if I set it to 3000 rpm but I have to reduce substantially when sewing a curve after a straight line, would I be able to do with the pedal?
just like an automobile, the further you push down on the pedal, the faster the car goes.. The speed setting sets the maximum speed when the pedal is pushed all the way down.
Short answer: in sewing machines and most tools yes. Long answer: For brushless motors in general no. There are two types BLDC (DC brushless) motors, sensored and sensorless. Sensored motor replace the brushes with hall effect sensors that contactlessly detect the rotation angle of the rotor magnetically (a hall sensor detects the strength of a magnetic field) and a computer then switches the coils like the brushes would in a brushed motor, but electronically. So they still have commutation but it's computer controlled and done electronically with a set of FETs (field effect transistors). The other type is sensorless brushless motors in which the controller passively detects the rotation angle of the motor by means of EMF feedback from the motor coils instead of with a set of hall effect sensors. Because the motor doesn't generate as much EMF at low RPM they have have torque and smoothness issues at very low speeds but they are only meant to be run at medium to high speeds anyway and you wouldn't use them in an application where the motor is expected to be run at low speed. An example would be an R/C airplane or quadrotor drone, almost all brushless motors used in R/C aircraft are sensorless. Sensorless motors have an advantage in those applications because the motor is simpler, it has no hall sensor board or sensor wires just the three phase wires to the the motor coils. (in a sensored motor there have to be at least 5 sensor wires ground, low voltage power for the sensors and three wires for at least three hall sensors) Also they really aren't "DC" the motor is technically a three phase AC motor with switching voltage (PWM voltage chopping) and a computer controlled phase but that's a mouthfull and the controllers that power and run the motor use DC power so they call them BLDC motors.
I don't know if its AC or DC, the information that came with the motor did not specify. to be sure contact sailrite and those guys would know. The purpose of this video was to demonstrate the performance between the brushless and brushed type motors. I have three different types of brushless motors and these perform the same. Now are these AC or DC, I don't know. Now on the other hand, all the brushed motors, used a rheostat to control the max speed. (Controlling the voltage input to the motor) thereby limiting the torque, the lower the max speed is set the less torque is available. Whereas the brushless type you have to program in the max speed thereby maintaining max torque regardless of how low the max speed is set to.
all servo motors sound the same, very quiet, the machine itself is louder then the motor. the machines with the built in motors are loud. clutch motors are very loud.
no, completely different types of brackets, each manufacture of servo motors use a different type of bracket. when you buy the servo motor the mounting bracket comes with it. the mounting holes are the same for all industrial sewing machine motors being clutch or servo.
When you try to stop the Workhorse motor at low speed by hand, I hear a "vibrating" sound from the motor. I get the feeling, that you got some vibration i torque, while the pulley spins in your hand. Can you feel this vibration too at this low speed? I have noticed that more owners of brushless servo motors have noticed a vibration or "rough" behavior at low speed: leatherworker.net/forum/topic/87367-servo-motor-running-rough-at-low-speed/
No, there's no vibration what so ever, just the sound. Also what I forgot to mention in the video "brush-less" servo motors have some sort of a low "growling" sound whereas a brushed servo motor has the typical high pitched whine that you find in most motors. All motors will have a certain sound to them because of the 60hz cycle in our electrical source., and that is what you are hearing with any electrical device. Since brush-less servo motors aren't as common as the brushed electrical motors, the growling sound seems abnormal compared to the standard electrical motor. The workhorse servo motor in the video was exceptionally noisy, worked fine but too noisy.
Thanks for explaining. In the video you inform us, that this Workhorse motor have a fabrication error, that Sailrite recognized. Was it the noisy sound only?
Thanks for your answer. In the video you inform us, that this specific Workhorse motor got an error that SailRite recognized. Was this exceptionally noise the only reason? I am not asking you for the other reasons.
@@sewingmachinesindetail Yes it was only the noise. Sailrite also had me to open up the motor to see if there were any mechanical issues, which there weren't any. Also I took a few electrical measurements and found nothing wrong. They told me they would still honor my warranty if I opened up the motor. So no doubt its a bad circuit board. There are three circuit boards, one in the motor case and two in the case housing. I never did remove the two boards in the case housing to inspect those. The reason if i did find some defect on the boards, I don't have the wiring schematics or the components to do any fixes.
What you’re hearing In a brushless motor is the armature that is rotating inside the stator/permanent magnet. The rotation is basically clicking between the magnets in the motor. It makes a different sound. But it’s because it isn’t using carbon brushes that ride along the armature
The brushed motor can be just as powerful, but it's inefficient due to its triac circuitry. You really need a PWM controller in a closed loop configuration to maximize its power.
I guess that's why brushless impact drivers are all the rage right now. Btw, what model Yamaha is that? Looks really nice and it looks like you have the Sailrite wheel on it.
yep, I do have a Sailrite power thingy, sorry I forgot what they called it but had it for a few years now and love it. It's a Yamata 5318. The presser foot only raises about 7/16" of an inch but what I really like about this style of walking foot verses a needle feed machine is when needle is in the up position, the fabric is locked in-between the presser foot and feed dogs. You can pull as hard as you like but it will not let go of the fabric. Whereas with a needle feed when the needle is in the up position, the fabric can be easily pulled out.
Great video! Thank you! I have a question though, How did you get your "Monster Balance Wheel" (I think they call it that?) fitted to your Yamata?@@gmcxm211
Thank you for explaining the difference in the motors. I was going to try and save some money with the cheaper servo motor, but I’m getting a workhorse!
I have a brush type servo motor and don't have any of the issues that you show. I can control my needle on my Pfaff 545 as good as you can on your brushless. I personally don't think the sky is falling with brush types motors as you indicate.
This is great! So happy I found this before I got my motor
Me too!
Thank you for this video, I was just curious on the difference since I'm interested in a "home" sewing machine that has been introduced with a brushless motor. Now through your great explanation I can make my decision. Thanks again.
Thank you very much for making this decision much easier for me. I have a Consew 226 that has performed like a champ despite a harsh life before getting my hands on it. I am after complete control of the stitch and your video has been instrumental in making my decision on upgrading to a servo and finally replacing the old clutch motor. I have gotten pretty good at slowing it down but never to the point where I can count the stitches. Placing my order tonight and going with the Sailrite Workhorse! Thanks again for the in depth video comparison sir.
Excellent video. I just bought my first industrial machine, a clone of a Singer 211, and it came with a brushed servo motor. Initially I was surprised with how little control it gave me because I didn't understand the difference between the two servo motor types. Now I'm going to order a brushless motor with needle positioning and I hope it will be a big improvement. Thanks again.
Thank you, I've learned a lot from you!
Thanks your video answered several questions
thank you just what i needed to know changing out my clutch motor , and want to sew slow
Thanks so much. I finally understand the difference.
I found this video very useful...thank you
mui buena demostracion me quedo claricimo grasias
Thank you great information, thanks!
Thanks for the fine work on this. I've used a Juki SC510 servo on my 1510n-7 for 14 yrs and love it. Recently picked up a Brother B837 for backup. It came with that brushed servo you have. Brand is Eagle but their seems to be many of the same but branded different. Found it hard to sew slow. Now that I want to upgrade to Needle positioner and brushless I wondered if the brushless would be better. thanks for showing that.
I haven't researched it but I don't believe a needle positioner would work on a brushed servo because a brushed servo nothing more than an electric motor
@@gmcxm211 Probably not cause they don't seem to offer them with brushed. Oh my Juki SC510 servo is 750 watts so this 3000 should be similar in performance.
@@jimbobxcityguy5338 It should, because in electrical energy, 750 watts = 1hp mechanical energy
The second video got good details. Thanks
sorry for the cough at the beginning, I forgot to cut that out. I will do it now
stephen feldmeier don't sweat it friend. We value the videos
Thank you for this comparison of the two these two types of servo motors. I agree with you, that the issue of slow speed control is important, and a well designed servo motor can help many sewing operators in this regard. I do know about Electric motors. I think, that the older type of servo motors for sewing machines typically was DC-motors internally with bruches, and they most likely have no internal sensor, that measures the shaft speed. The newer brushless motors with more Electronics have a sensor, that measures speed. This sensor will tell the Electronics about speed, and if it is too low, current to the motor is increased so torque is increased so the motor can regain correct speed. This can be done to a motor with bruches too, but it may be that it was not done for the motors sold for sewing. In my oppinion, I think it should be possible for the Workhorse to go even slower at lowest speed, and I am a Little suppriced that it is not made so it can go even slower. However I think it is better than many others on the market. I like to link to a thread from 2012 on leatherworker about control, where some people improved their servo motors. leatherworker.net/forum/topic/41483-servo-motor-mod-diy-easier-speed-control/?tab=comments#comment-258131 - and the control I got on my home modified domestic machine: czcams.com/video/fnH3TVF6J0w/video.html
Thanks for more of a detailed explanation, but for everyone else reading this, even though these motors have excellent slow speed torque, these motors are still only 3/4 hp and are limited on the size of sewing machine these should be used on. In my opinion the Yamata 5318, or the Consew 204 and 205 are the largest machines any 3/4 hp servo motor should be used for. The machines that are designed especially for leather work, there is a 1 hp servo motor that is rated for 750 watts. I haven't used one but I have two coming. One is for the Thor GC 1341 I have and a NMD 4420. The 3/4 hp is just a little too small for these bigger machines. When I get them I'll do a quick review.
Thank you for the answer. I look forward to see your other reviews.
In general, the hp value is a value for shaft power. 1 hp = 735.5 Watt. The funny think is, that many specifications on these motors give the same input electrical power specified for the servo motor - like 3/4 hp = 550 W. But the input electrical power will always be significantly higher than the output shaft power. For this kind of motor I should think, that a normal efficiency would be around 70 % at max power. 30% is then converted to heat loss. For many servo motors I do not know if the specified input power is wrong or the specified output shaft power is wrong. Shaft power in W can be be calculated by: Po [W] = Torque [Nm] x Speed[RPM] x 0.1047. So it depends of the speed rating at max power, how much torque the motor should have. Some motors can also provide a higher torque than rated for a short time, when the mean loading of the motor is not too high. This extra torque can be important to have on a sewing machine.
Can the speed control tweak be used on Brushless servo motors?
Hi. You mentioned the Workhorse motor has issues. What symptoms is it showing?
correct me if I'm wrong but brushless does not mean more torque or something familiar; it's just the transmission of power that does not use brushes so it lasts longer.
I think either one motor has a better motor or there is a reducer already build in.
Both motors are servo? Or one is traditional and the other is servo?
Kindly let me know, given a speed setting, would you be able to vary the speed with the pedal? Or, is it 0 or 100% speed only? for example, if I set it to 3000 rpm but I have to reduce substantially when sewing a curve after a straight line, would I be able to do with the pedal?
just like an automobile, the further you push down on the pedal, the faster the car goes.. The speed setting sets the maximum speed when the pedal is pushed all the way down.
Thank you!!!
Good info. So is it safe to assume ALL brush less motors will have this kind of torque at slow speed? Thx
Short answer: in sewing machines and most tools yes.
Long answer: For brushless motors in general no. There are two types BLDC (DC brushless) motors, sensored and sensorless. Sensored motor replace the brushes with hall effect sensors that contactlessly detect the rotation angle of the rotor magnetically (a hall sensor detects the strength of a magnetic field) and a computer then switches the coils like the brushes would in a brushed motor, but electronically. So they still have commutation but it's computer controlled and done electronically with a set of FETs (field effect transistors). The other type is sensorless brushless motors in which the controller passively detects the rotation angle of the motor by means of EMF feedback from the motor coils instead of with a set of hall effect sensors. Because the motor doesn't generate as much EMF at low RPM they have have torque and smoothness issues at very low speeds but they are only meant to be run at medium to high speeds anyway and you wouldn't use them in an application where the motor is expected to be run at low speed. An example would be an R/C airplane or quadrotor drone, almost all brushless motors used in R/C aircraft are sensorless. Sensorless motors have an advantage in those applications because the motor is simpler, it has no hall sensor board or sensor wires just the three phase wires to the the motor coils. (in a sensored motor there have to be at least 5 sensor wires ground, low voltage power for the sensors and three wires for at least three hall sensors)
Also they really aren't "DC" the motor is technically a three phase AC motor with switching voltage (PWM voltage chopping) and a computer controlled phase but that's a mouthfull and the controllers that power and run the motor use DC power so they call them BLDC motors.
How much is it? And how do I get it, I'm in Uganda
Does it stich shoes and has a motor for brushing at the same time?
yes and no, it will stitch shoes on a machine designed to sew shoes. but to use a wire wheel you need the brush type motor.
Hello is that black motor DC brushless motor? I want to use it on DIY project
I don't know if its AC or DC, the information that came with the motor did not specify. to be sure contact sailrite and those guys would know. The purpose of this video was to demonstrate the performance between the brushless and brushed type motors. I have three different types of brushless motors and these perform the same. Now are these AC or DC, I don't know. Now on the other hand, all the brushed motors, used a rheostat to control the max speed. (Controlling the voltage input to the motor) thereby limiting the torque, the lower the max speed is set the less torque is available. Whereas the brushless type you have to program in the max speed thereby maintaining max torque regardless of how low the max speed is set to.
Hello there, can you tell me which is the quietest?
all servo motors sound the same, very quiet, the machine itself is louder then the motor. the machines with the built in motors are loud. clutch motors are very loud.
the mount for the brushless is not compatible with the mount on the other?
no, completely different types of brackets, each manufacture of servo motors use a different type of bracket. when you buy the servo motor the mounting bracket comes with it. the mounting holes are the same for all industrial sewing machine motors being clutch or servo.
When you try to stop the Workhorse motor at low speed by hand, I hear a "vibrating" sound from the motor. I get the feeling, that you got some vibration i torque, while the pulley spins in your hand. Can you feel this vibration too at this low speed? I have noticed that more owners of brushless servo motors have noticed a vibration or "rough" behavior at low speed: leatherworker.net/forum/topic/87367-servo-motor-running-rough-at-low-speed/
No, there's no vibration what so ever, just the sound. Also what I forgot to mention in the video "brush-less" servo motors have some sort of a low "growling" sound whereas a brushed servo motor has the typical high pitched whine that you find in most motors. All motors will have a certain sound to them because of the 60hz cycle in our electrical source., and that is what you are hearing with any electrical device. Since brush-less servo motors aren't as common as the brushed electrical motors, the growling sound seems abnormal compared to the standard electrical motor.
The workhorse servo motor in the video was exceptionally noisy, worked fine but too noisy.
Thanks for explaining. In the video you inform us, that this Workhorse motor have a fabrication error, that Sailrite recognized. Was it the noisy sound only?
Thanks for your answer. In the video you inform us, that this specific Workhorse motor got an error that SailRite recognized. Was this exceptionally noise the only reason? I am not asking you for the other reasons.
@@sewingmachinesindetail Yes it was only the noise. Sailrite also had me to open up the motor to see if there were any mechanical issues, which there weren't any. Also I took a few electrical measurements and found nothing wrong. They told me they would still honor my warranty if I opened up the motor. So no doubt its a bad circuit board. There are three circuit boards, one in the motor case and two in the case housing. I never did remove the two boards in the case housing to inspect those. The reason if i did find some defect on the boards, I don't have the wiring schematics or the components to do any fixes.
What you’re hearing In a brushless motor is the armature that is rotating inside the stator/permanent magnet. The rotation is basically clicking between the magnets in the motor. It makes a different sound. But it’s because it isn’t using carbon brushes that ride along the armature
I'm choosing the brushless type it's quite like the brush type
The brushed motor can be just as powerful, but it's inefficient due to its triac circuitry. You really need a PWM controller in a closed loop configuration to maximize its power.
what's the model number on that sailrite motor ?
I don't know, they only sell one type of motor. If go to their website you can read the description.
Off to Amazon for a brushless!
I guess that's why brushless impact drivers are all the rage right now. Btw, what model Yamaha is that? Looks really nice and it looks like you have the Sailrite wheel on it.
yep, I do have a Sailrite power thingy, sorry I forgot what they called it but had it for a few years now and love it. It's a Yamata 5318. The presser foot only raises about 7/16" of an inch but what I really like about this style of walking foot verses a needle feed machine is when needle is in the up position, the fabric is locked in-between the presser foot and feed dogs. You can pull as hard as you like but it will not let go of the fabric. Whereas with a needle feed when the needle is in the up position, the fabric can be easily pulled out.
@@gmcxm211 Interesting. Thanks for the reply.
Great video! Thank you! I have a question though, How did you get your "Monster Balance Wheel" (I think they call it that?) fitted to your Yamata?@@gmcxm211
I'm a craft shoes maker, u like this machine
what is the thing at 6:10 that you fold out of the way of the foot?
www.sailrite.com/Binder-1-Swing-Bracket there are videos on how they work
@@gmcxm211 thanks