Plastic Pattresses and Boxes for UK Electrical Accessories
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- Plastic boxes for sockets, switches and other UK electrical items, surface and flush styles.
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John I just wanted to say how much I like your videos. They are clear and straight to the point without unecessary waffle, and you explain things in an extremely easy to understand way. I'm working my way through your videos, and I've learned a huge amount in a very short amount of time. Keep up the good work.
Great idea for a video! So much we take for granted but interesting to explain for laymen and people from other countries.
I would have to agree with that, especially as somebody from another country who is used to very different products in the same applications.
John thanks for posting. I have Asperger's Syndrome and struggle to understand but with your videos what I love is you go into all the details and it answers so my questions. Many Thanks Ian
As someone new to electrical installations, this has been a very useful resource for answering the questions I had to help understand the pros and cons between plastic and metal boxes.
Thank you John. Ive just started DIY and your video is certainly excellent bringing so much together to get a good understanding of electric sockets and back boxes. Great stuff thank you.
Through time and experience, I have had a fair share of doing repairs with these boxes. They are fine for light switches, switch fuses, D.P. Switches and other accessories. The problem is with sockets. If they get a strong pull, they can pull the tabs through the plasterboard which can be a difficult repair. Expensive better quality boxes have bigger and stronger side tabs. I recommend hollow partition walls have a wooden “noggin” fitted and the back box screwed to the timber back brace. I have been on jobs where virtually every socket back box has been pulled and when you have a row of houses renovated at the same time, the problem is throughout. These boxes are cost saving but I have found they are expensive in the long run for socket outlets. Great video again John. Thanks for your time!
Never seen that but I don't doubt it happens, particuarly if the hole is cut oversize.
Thanks again John, really useful video. Appreciate the detailed clear delivery.
Another informative video John :)
1. Always worth remembering, along with the points you have made, is that placing 'dry line' boxes too close to each other leaves a thin, weak section of plasterboard between boxes. Think carefully before cutting out plasterboard! For those in doubt....try it....your box might pull plasterboard out!! 50mm (min) spacing OK for durability in my experience.
2. Also great point on horrible 'crunchy plastic' on surface Pattress knock outs.....how many boxes get broken? Use PVC where possible!
3. Last point is the impact on the fire protection given by plasterboard. Always consider the impact on any fire barrier that you might compromise by cutting a hole in it!.
Regarding fire barrier integrity you can get drop-in intumescent inserts and I see MK do dry lining boxes with them ready fitted.
@@Graham_Langley I have seen products (bespoke and retrofit) like this but never used them before myself. It does sound like the perfect solution ;)
John,You can fit metal boxes to avoid the problem of the plastic surround on plasterboard boxes with fixing lugs. Use a piece of timber with a long screw fitted on one side so you can fenangle the box and piece of timber in to the hole and then fit a second retaining screw through one of the screw holes at the rear of the metal box screwed in to the timber strap.. This is a bit fiddly but does work and makes a neater job for certain types of switch fronts.
*Word of note.* If you're in a situation where you've got an apartment one side and one the other then the area needs to be one hour fire rated. This can be done with 2 layers of plasterboard with mastic fire sealant around the joints and metal backboxes. Otherwise these are fine. That detail is in the British gypsum white book should anyone want to see the method I described or other methods too.
Hi, two things: You can drill in a brittle backbox, but use cone bit on high speed, the extra terminal in plastic box is for connecting earth wires in a ring.
Very similar in concept to what are known as "old work" boxes here in the US. Most interior residential walls here in homes built since the 1950s are drywall, so this is a fairly common thing here. When installing boxes on a wall that hasn't had the drywall put up, you'd attach your boxes to the studs. These boxes are known as "new work"boxes. But for retrofitting something, you'd cut the hole and slide in an "old work" box. These typically have plastic wings at the corners with a screw through them. The wings are folded in when you insert the box, then, when you tighten the screws, the wings fold out and get pulled against the back of the drywall as you tighten the screw. The "dual purpose" screw holes your boxes use wouldn't work here, since our electrical devices don't have the face plate integrated. For example, with an outlet, you'd screw the outlet to the box, then a face plate goes over it to cover it. I kind of like the British way better- it would make installing or replacing things much faster. Here, you have to unscrew the cover, then the device, disconnect the wires, connect the wires to the new device, screw in the device, adjust the fit to make sure it's level, tighten the mounting screws, then reinstall the face plate. Might only save a minute or so per device, but if you're doing a lot of them, it adds up.
Your vids are excellent could
watch them all day !! Keep sharing Thanks
Other application for the surface mount is where you have a sound desk so only the thickness of the wood to attach to but I would prefer the trunking as it looks way better. The sound desk we have has an elevated floor the cables run under and pop out at the front think the cleaners as scared to go near it in case they damage anything so the surface mounted ones work ok but as you said any decent knock will break them. Our house has surface mount sockets till we moved in and we sunk everything into the walls but being solid walls it took a bit of time getting them in but well worth the effort
My experience is these are fine for say a lamp or tv where the plug will rarely be removed but for something like a vacuum cleaner where the plug is in and out regularly the plasterboard eventually breaks away leaving the socket loose. Better with metal back box in these situations.
The 2+1gang is also useful if you need a triple-socket outlet arrangement. The MK fused triple (K2737WHI) is £20+, and you have to use a corresponding metal box, which can be tricky to find. If you use the 2+1 plastic back box, you can install a standard double socket and spur off to the single right next to it. It doesn't look exactly the same, but it works and it's far cheaper.
Why would you spur off it. Just split it and put a link in the keep the ring complete without any spurs.
@@nathanhedgeley8016 Of course you can. Either way just needs a bit of cable. My point was how to Not pay £20+ for a threesome. They don't make a triple dry-lining box that I've found.
£20 is pretty outrageous, in North America the devices are modular, therefore interchangeable, and most outlets are duplex outlets, there are singles but they are hard to find, probably intended for use with air conditioners, or other items that need a dedicated outlet. It seems weird to see outlets and cover plates in one package, I'm surprised that nobody has come out with some system where you can interchange outlets and cover plates. But then again ring circuits seem weird to me also, even though I understand the principle on paper.
@@terencejay8845 I get your point mate, good idea. We've never installed triples on my firm, we'd just install 2 doubles next to each other for the ease of installation and it then gives them and extra socket if needed.
The triple K2737 is narrower than the 2+1 arrangement which can make all the difference. Pity they don't make a dry lining box for it.
But it's not the only standard-style triple socket. If you don't want a match then CPC sell a "One to Three Socket Converter" under PL09974 that's a triple switched socket on a standard-style UF surface pattress with a metal mounting frame to fit over a single gang backbox. Remove the frame and you've got a surface-mount triple socket, albeit with a hole in the back. I've used one in the network cupboard here to give a vital extra socket where space was too tight for another single.
It's currently on offer for £4.98+VAT on page 22 of their Bulk Bargains flyer under PL0997487, valid to 31/5/19.
Thanks John
Nice video, didn't know about the metal add ons for boxes. Also the bendy surface plastic with knockouts. Handy to know. I despise the crumbly plastic boxes. Keep up the great presentations.
SHALLOW PLASTERBOARD BOXES
25mm deep boxes are manufactured for use in Mobile Homes because the outer wall thicknes of these vans can be only 30mm between the inner wall surface and the outer metal wall. I have tried to source these for work on my Mobile Home but I have not found a retail supplier who has come across them. Maybe they are only available to Caravan manufacturers.
You can drill those plastic patress boxes for a 20mm female coupler if your careful, just use a wood block to support it inside and set the drill for maximum speed and never back off the power while the saw teeth are biting. Be prepared for dust, lots of dust.
plastic tab sides? no metal exposed and adjustable, good snap. Nice representation of work preparation setup
who else wakes up at night, and even leaves work on unauthorised breaks, calls in a sicky or otherwise neglects obligatory duties in order to. . .
watch JWs videos
if so. . . welcome to the club
I have seen metal clips (sold by a specialist retailer/electrical contractor) that clip on the sides of the metal backboxes. Need to have space on either side to maneuver the box into the final position. Does not solve the falling away problem however. A back strap has been introduced but cannot find at Screwfix (haven't tried their trade Electfix section though).
Retrofit the flat you inspected for the kitchen.
Perfect video and answers all my questions. Fantastic
Thank you
Great demonstration.
Great video, thanks John!
I find the Click 47 mm dry lining box will fit double thickness plasterboard.
The round dry lining boxes are good for recessing 6A ceiling pull switches too
codenamenel
Pretty good things them boxes. .
Unless there's a joist in the way...
Graham Langley
Pain in the ass moment
Graham Langley
Pain in the ass moment
@@Graham_Langley that's what stud finders are for 😉
I love everything you make ❤
The only place I've got surface mounted sockets is in the loft and the garage/workshop, and I make sure they are metal clad. I'm not fond of surface mounted plastic, and they also look tacky, even in a garage/workshop and are more prone to damage.
Pretty much all the white pattresses I use are PVC, tend to be for repairs in rental properties/sockets plonked in kitchen cupboards or for lofts/garages/sheds/cellars
@@dg2908 I can imagine it in rental properties. Whatever is most cost effective. I just hate the things.
@@TheEulerID tend to get less care taken too
John: Scolmore's 'Click' range of dry lining boxes can be joined together using a connector. CPC carry them.
See page four of Scolmore's 'Essentials' catalogue: www.scolmore.com/_pdfs/essentials.pdf
At 11:10 the box on the left looks to be one of those that you can mount onto a recessed single gang metal box when you want to change to a double socket. The problem with that idea is the cables are never long enough!
Always very interesting information thank you
Fantastic video!
Another great video thanks John 👍
Really useful, helped me a lot!
Thanks, Great video.
An outfit I do a lot of subby work for insist on surface work and insist on supplying materials. Breaks my heart a little bit every time installing round edge MK sockets on to square edge cheap nasty boxes.
Congrats on the CZcams award JW. . . . I misread the video title and wired my bed and box springs into the house supply. . . I thought it was meant to be mattress. . . My bad. . Is this a problem?? Please advise.
Not sure it is a problem. It is a well known way of curing bed wetting!
@@johnsimpson8263 you legend. . . ypuve made my bank holiday complete. . . ive been wondering what to about this problem for about 3.7 decades
Have you a video on using junction boxes to join wires in the attic. I mean the best practices to ensure wires are unlikely to come out of a box if accidently pulled etc.
Only reason people using pattress boxes rather than PVC it’s because they are cheap but PVC it save times and don’t break and you can drill holes anywhere
Hiya John. Can we have a video on how to run a surface mounted cable via mini trunking for an additional socket/fcu into a surface mounted box from an existing flushed double socket. I know there isn’t a “one way to fit all” with this but can we just go over some methods of how this can be achieved¿ Thanks
Great video , thanks. Do you have any wiring video of these pattresses boxes? If not, can you please share your knowledge on it
Excellent video! For the steel 1G back box with the timber behind it, would you normally only use a single screw in the middle rather than 2 on the sides (like with a 2G box)?
Any ideas what the hole in the corner of the back of the dry lining box was intended to be used for? Has boggled my brain for years..
Brass earth terminal, which can be obtained as a separate item: www.electrium.co.uk/products/appleby/catalog?main=AAG&man=0060&sub=AAB&pro=AAA&level=4
Great video.
What would you suggest if installing on a wall which is 12.5mm plasterboard on top of 50mm Kingspan insulation?
Not keen on surface mounting, but can imagine setting the box into the insulation will be difficult
what about the fireproof liners for the pvc cavity wall boxes?
Plastic used for electrical fittings is self extinguishing.
If you're in a situation where you've got an apartment one side and one the other then the area need to be one hour fire rated. This can be done with 2 layers of plasterboard with mastic fire sealant at the joints. Otherwise these are fine.
in Appleby dry lining plastic box there is a hole in bottom right corner, assuming this is for optional earthing. is there a special accessory for it, like a clamping bolt etc? i probably need earth terminal but my thermostat doesn't have earth terminal so i assume it could be done connecting those to a box, but plastic box doesn't have one, there is only a hint of possible terminal in the corner
Can I remove plastic box easily, need look at back, then put clip back? I'm talking about ones at start with yellow clip inserts. Trying to connect new cooker hood but existin fcu has flex with no earth, and flex not moving so want see where goes. Why I ask how to remove existing plastic insert.
Push the clip to the back of the box, then pry inwards with a flat screwdriver. Basically the reverse of installing it. They may break as they are only plastic and can be brittle if installed a long time ago.
Is their a box suitable for thick (92mm) insulated plasterboard? Thanks
Do you have any boxes from North America/US 120v? I'd love to send you some - seems very wild west over here compared to you guys.
Alright John, just wondering what I’d do if someone wanted me to add a spur that’s not flush onto the wall from one that is? How would I get the cable from the socket that is flush into the wall to the spur without having to chase and go through the wall? I know I’d use capping and that obviously but how would I get the cable from the socket that is flush onto the wall? Thank you
You missed the architrave boxes
Hi JW, Is it ok to have a socket out fitted into pipe boxing in a kitchen, the pipe boxing contains a soil pipe from the bathroom above. If it’s ok or not what is the regulation for this
Квадратные коробки это наверно очень удобно во время монтажа розеток и выключателей... Много места...
Hi what is the length and width of the PVC flushed box, the one gang and 2 gang?
Is there any standard that identifies surface mounted Backbox and flush mounted Backbox?
Sir 47 mm is the best. It is able for wire 4mm
What do the manufacturers actually recommend to open those brittle boxes ?I've tried everything I can think of but had lots of breakages and scraped lots of cable through jagged holes
My experience also. I have managed to drill them but it needs very small pilot holes and passes with multiple drills. As JW says, really not practical.
Never use them, buy the pvc boxes which you can drill with no issue
Jesus, I know it’s possible but why bother when you can buy nice flexible pvc ones
@@supersparks9466 Different touch & feel, and also, PVC-type plastics may suffer from yellowing and discolouration over time, and they may also become more brittle over time. Now I know what you're going to say: Urea-formaldehyde (UF) pattresses are more brittle, but that's factored into their design to start with, so turning a brittle nicotine yellow is not something that happens to them over the years. You may want to choose UF when building to last.
@@lordmuntague I use a small pilot drill then a hole saw. Generally works well with a bit of care.
Can you buy (anywhere ) a triple plasterboard Boxes .
None that I am aware of. The triple sockets are rarely used, and in most cases it's easier and cheaper to just fit 2 doubles instead.
@@jwflame I was sure I'd seen one somewhere but can't find any trace of it.
Great video thanks. Just a quick question if the drywall is double 12mm plasterboard in some places so around 27mm thick including the skim. The side flaps cant get behind the plasterboard is there something else you could do or use??
Many thanks.
It's possible to cut away some of the second layer of plasterboard to make space, however if the wall is double thickness, that may be because of fire resistance or sound resistance, and a plastic box would not be appropriate in that situation.
@@jwflame Great thanks for your reply John much appreciated 👍
Can someone tell me why the round dry lining backboxes you can get (e.g. Appleby from Screwfix) have screw holes with 50mm separation instead of the 64ish mm of a normal backbox? I have fire alarms with the more standard 64mm ish spacing and can't find the right back boxes for them!
50mm spacing is intended for ceiling roses and other ceiling lights, it's the same spacing as round conduit boxes.
@@jwflame That exactly answers my question, now I just need to find a bigger ceiling back box that is round. Thanks Mr Ward!
6:50 . . Or don't wire it up. . And just cover it with a socket and you have a secret little stash for money
👏🏻💯💯💯
the plastic box is as good as the hole in the wall. In my case, cowboy builders made the hole too big.
Slab boxes "fairly straight forward to use" except for muppets that cut their screws with a pliers and cause you a trip to the wholesalers because the lugs are free spinning in the tabs.
Hi john just a wanted to ask you can you tigh data cat 5 lead with a mains lead in panel wiring
Are you allowed to use a plastic back box with a metal face plate on a light switch?
Yes, the protective conductor just connects to the earth terminal on the switch plate.
If yoy are putting a metal light switch on a plastic back box do you need to earth the switch to the box?
Plastic boxes do not need earthing.
And for those people who are out there.. . Near JWs beautiful music organ; that ball shaped thing that is illuminated; that is called a globe. . It is the planet we live on. . Please pass this shocking revelation onto those flat earthers . . Luv the video JW
Did you miss the comments on the video where he restored the lighting in that globe? It was a video about retrofitting LED lighting in place of the original incandescent light in there. Just like adding a light to any piece of furniture, only this happened to be a globe. The video had nothing to do with the purpose or design of a globe. It was about installing lighting in something. The flat earth idiots still came out of the woodwork in the comments.
@@puckcat22679
i can believe it too. . . those flat earthers are a real nuisance and they are promoting a dangerous ideology. . .
i havent seen that episode of JWs video, but i will check it out. . .
Anyone know how you can remove this plastic boxes once they are clipped in without damaging them?
Reverse of installation - push the plastic tabs to the back of the box, and pry inwards with a screwdriver.
Although I always find your videos interesting, it would be nice to see if there is a CZcamsr than does things from a North American perspective. I've seen CZcamsrs that cover these topics. I haven't seen a video from Sparky in a while. I can't tell if it's just CZcams steering what I see or something else.
"See Jane Drill" sometimes does electrical stuff. Very rarely, though. Mostly it's joinery.
12:00 C'mon john! Theres better ways to do it than that! I use a multitool to cut out the size i need and then cleanly snap it out with bullnose pliers. I used to use a hacksaw but a multitool is quicker and cleaner.
couple of lines with a junior hacksaw then ordinary combination pliers to snap it off across the width works best for me. If you absolutely have to use a brittle white box that is
@@dg2908 exactly what I do to. Works every time.
Can these be fitted into mdf
Yes.
How do you remove them?
Push the side tabs to the back of the box, and snap them inwards using a screwdriver.
Given that the Appleby drywall boxes are perfectly usable in solid walls metal back boxes should be consigned to the dustbin of history!
Metal back boxes in a hollow wall are an absolute bloody nightmare to remove neatly in order to retrofit a larger box, such as fitting a single gang net port plate next to a single or double output 13A plate.
Why sparkies STILL mount metal back boxes in drywall with all the concomitant extra expense, lack of easy alteration, future upgradability and pre-planning, not to mention it makes the whole job of boarding also much more time consuming to do in order to get precise hole cutting in the board to match properly with the preferred metal box.
Tell me about it. Cutting the timber out through the hole is a right pain even with a reciprocating saw. There's just one left here.
@@Graham_Langley I've just resorted to finding the studs and cutting out a rectangular piece of plasterboard using a multitool then reinstating using either 5mm plywood backing to refix the removed piece across the horizontal or no more nails and some bits of gyproc stuck to the back of the original wall for support and smooth the edges of the cut and fill with powder filler then sand back.
All the ones done so far have been invisible repair and it does save a LOT of frustration but it's been so unnecessary for decades. AFAIC they could ban metal back boxes today and it would make bugger all difference in reality.
@@boblewis5558 I use 12mm PB stuck in place behind using woodworking PVA instead of timber for stuff like this. It's easily cut, more than stong enough and means you're only dealing with PB should you need to do more work in the area later.
What are the deepest metal pattresses/boxes available in the UK?
47mm
@@jwflameIf you install insulated plasterboards does the wiring have to be changed due to the potential build up of heat? i.e. would 2.5mm socket cable have to be changed to 4mm, 6mm, etc or would a lower rated fuse at the consumer unit have to installed on the existing wiring, e.g 26A down to 20A? If so, where can I find out more information about this?
@@BODGE71 Can be either method. All covered in BS7671, an introduction of the basics can be found here: www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.1.htm - that is based on older regulations but the principles are still valid.
I am the first one to comment on this video
Not!
@@bask2140 he was
Until you are blocked
(12:08) - Horrible crunchy plastic?
No, John.
No, no, no.
Melamine Formaldehyde or
Phenol formaldehyde resin.
A form of Bakelite that is fire resistant and also melt resistant.
"Horrible crunchy plastic?"
Come on John. Can you not do even a little bit of research here?
EDIT: If it wasn't "Horrible crunchy plastic", it would be something else and that something else would likely be not so brittle but soft enough to snip without cracking through the whole box. But the of course, it is not going to be fireproof anymore...
Oh you win some, you lose some...
.