2g-ACM - Rimless Enfields - 1911 Spinner Target Hate
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- čas přidán 25. 10. 2017
- We're taking a break from modern guns for this match series and decided to pit two very interesting and historic Enfield rifles against one another:
M1917 "Eddystone" in 30-06
vs
Ishapore 2A1 in 308 NATO
This stage is a pistol only stage, however, so we we stayed inline with our theme and brought out the Cimarron 1911 that's setup appropriately for the WW1 era.
Stage 4: 1911 Spinner Target Hate
The spinner target became an object of our wrath when trying to neutralize it with essentially obsolescent WW1 1911 tech. Enjoy!
InRangeTV is entirely viewer supported, please consider it:
/ inrangetv
Karl "mag eater" Karsarda and Ian "Gun Jesus" Mcollum ULTIMATE FACE OFF
Ian gets a 10+ bonus to all skills when using obsolete or obsolescent firearms
+Maxim Gun Then why didn’t he spin the spinner?
InRangeTV Too many people think the 1911 is still a competitive design, so it nullified his usual bonus.
He gets the 10+ bonus on rifles, but only 5+ on pistols. Unfortunately he rolled snake eyes for his modifier on this stage.
"Don't eat them, they're not ripe" 10/10
Karl’s run was fun to watch. Eat that mag.
But they're not ripe
I loled hard when I saw that.
Was I the only one that saw that and thought of the end gun fight from Way of the Gun? Lol.
Bet they taste like salt
Running modern competitions with historical weapons is a major part of why I watch this channel (InRange).
I'd be perfectly content to see you try that spinner with a percussion cap revolver (and obviously expecting you to fail miserably)!
So you're saying that people just want, and like, to watch failure? :)
@@InrangeTv Yes :)
I mean, the real problem is that Karl had the wrong stance. For a WW1 pattern gun, you need the WW1 shooting stance.
Something, something ingrained kinesthetics, something, something design philosophy.
It would be interesting to see how long it would take to finish while point shooting one handed.
Ian actually did try it sometime, the whole valiant stand with one hand, gave up after like one mag with no hits and went back to shooting normal, Karl actually lost his shit a little then :D
Talking through the course while running through it on camera at the start is a great way to understand the stage as a viewer.
+pleaseinserturl Yep we just started that style with this match. More to come.
I love Karl's attitude at the end... it's really cool to see him being so supportive of Ian's growing skill level. I already knew the camaraderie was there, but seeing that kind of "you'll do it, I know you will" attitude between friends is just really heartening and great to see.
I was waiting for both of you to throw the pistol at the spinner LOL. Thanks again for the series, it was very enjoyable.
Karl, that run was great. Frustrated Karl is funniest Karl.
“OH YEAH IT HOLDS NO AMMO!!!” Lololol
You did great, Ian! You can do no better than your best, which is what you're always giving. Cheers for still uploading, you're a class act and a gentleman!
This is actually why I started watching the channel. Love all the other input but this got me here.
Jason Church I was watching forgotten weapons when this channel spun off.
You guys are, without a doubt, my favorite firearms presenters. I'm glad I can support y'all!
it is really fun & very interesting to watch & listen to you guys! I am proud to be one of your patrons! I am looking forward to see Ian win a match soon ;-)
+Philipp Hintermüller Thank you! Proud to have you as a supporter!
I really enjoy these! The commentary cracks me up too :) Great job guys!
I really laughed hard on this one. Keep it going!
Thanks for frustrating yourselves at the match so that we can enjoy the old guns. I do enjoy these videos and the old West vignettes for the reasons you stated
On the topic of Mosins, I think Ian would win a match if Karl uses a Mosin Nagant and a TT-30 while Ian competes with a Mle 1907/15-M34 Berthier or Mas-36 and a Model 1935 or Unique Model 17
At least be fair and give Karl a Finnish Mosin.
Spinner target = Ian's nemesis, he did very well with the rifle though.
Thanks for sharing this on CZcams anyway :) I appreciate it!
WOW! I was tensing up a bit watching you both.
These videos are very interesting. I think most of us watching these videos look on historical weapons with rose tinted glasses and convince ourselves they aren't that bad, but you really do show here how they just suck compared to modern weapons.
Interesting seeing the ricochet on the high backstop at about the 1:45 mark! That fragment went flying.
Great comparison! And i like the side by side comparison. Spinner looks rough
When you look on paper, the upgrade from the 1911 to the 1911 A1 is only some small changes. If you shot them side by side though, you realize those small changes make a BIG difference.
Oh nooooo! Ian you were sooo close. Great shooting with the eddystone btw, you cycle that action like a left handed beast. Keep it up! Karl will slip up eventually.
Love Karl's commentary!
Yessssss the Colt M1911 Way To Go Carl & Ian Lol Loved the Magazine Removal Technique Carl when in Doubt Cheeeeew it Out 💨🔫😊😀😎👍🏼
I'd really like to see one of you run a match with the antique guns, then again with a modern rifle and pistol just to illustrate the differences between the two. I know that I can watch people run similar stages with modern gear, but I think it would be an interesting comparison to show just how much difference the equipment makes when everything else is held equal.
More historical 2 gun please!!
Damn Ian, stage fright? You gotta do this some day man!
The mag spit killed me. 🤣🤣🤣
So much salt today! lol
Love you guys
And yet, in the Spanish civil war and in WW2 there were many episodes of CQB carried out with bolt action rifles ... therefore one can well see how doing a 2-gun match in this way would be suggestive of what went on still well into the 1940s. When they presented this episode I was just imagining how it must be felt like to fight fallschirmjägers in Cortona by the Canadians with the enfields, stens - not that many - brens against the mg42, the K98, the mp40s and quite a few FG42s.
I do enjoy the historical gun usage! Thanks guys, your frustration is appreciated :)
I usually do a quick wrist-flip-and-fling-the-empty-magazine reload with my GI 1911 at Wild Bunch events, but I think I'm going to try the 'bite and spit' reload next time, major style points, plus the taste of blued steel.... mmmmmmmm.
I think my takeaway here is that even the best pistol available sucks when compared to any rifle.
Where did all this 1911 hate come from? Not just on this channel but others as well. I drink the Glock kool-aid too but I still love my 1911.
I loved Karl's in-run commentary. Someday, i hope the technology is there to twitch-stream a Match.
Even if the technology is there it wouldn't be reasonable to do so while actually running the event, honestly. ~K
Can we have more frustrated Karl? Eating the mag was some of the funniest stuff yet. That image belongs on a t-shirt.
Speaking of old weapons, I totally liked Ian's Carcano short rifle M-llo 1938. 😎
Salt spewing detected. ;) It's ok, Karl. We still love you guys and your awesome channel. Keep up the fantastic work!
Have you thought of squaring off an AK and a Makorov against a FAL and a Browning GP.
But... but.... that "knock down power" should have spun that spinner in 1 hit?!?!
+Jay Jacobs Imagine that.
Add ball bearings and lube for more spin. :)
Guys..... i was being sarcastic....
see this demonstrates the need for "knock down power" over "capacity".
Karl perform his unique mouth reloading
When I excitedly told Ian I had spun the spinner, there was a long pause, then Ian forced a half smile and said, "good job." He remained gracious, but was clearly frustrated with how his stage had gone. It has got to be hard with those tiny sights and low capacity.
1:49 Just so goood. Laughed my ass off. Now my lungs hurt.
Inrange Certified, 1911 and Luger worst guns of WWI except for all of the others. Ha ha ha. Love you guys! If I ever get rich I will patreonate the heck out of y’all.
Now that whole match is one that I could get behind. Simple, straightforward. Many of the other matches you shoot are just too damn complicated. Forward, backward, dragging dummies, and so forth. One reason I've sort of quit shooting USPSA.
It would be interesting to do these contests with the Lee Enfield, Springfield '17, the Moisin Nagant, the K98! And for the handguns, the 1911, Luger, Nagant , and the Webley Revolver!
I think if Iam would have stayed with the bottom or top target on the spinner, so you don't have to re-aim every shot and/or took his time , I think he could have breezed through the spinner and won this. That's what works for me, this is after I tried different things spending about 6 hours figuring out what worked best for me and at the end of that day and now I can 95% of the time spin it with 3 or 4 rounds consistently. I think if he had the time to practice with the spinner he would have figured what worked best for himself and won this match against Karl.
Think karl is funny in a video? join patreon 5 dollars a month and chat with him in discord.
If I could get Discord to work...
download the program
I have the program, I just can't get on the inrange channel.
Don't mind me, just rewatching after 2 years
@2:47, ricochet?
Here's a really lulzy idea I had for really hitting home about how obsolete the bolt-actions (And revolvers) are/were.... cosplay scenario, Vietnam style. One going as an American draftee with Colt SP-1 and a GI grade 1911A1, the other going as a Viet Cong infiltrator who couldn't afford an AK so had to make do with a MAS-36 bolt-action and Modele` 1896 revolver they stole from a French loyalist.
Ooooh, even better, Mujaheddin. One as a Russian special forces soldier with AK-74 (like the one Karl used last Red October) and a Makarov, the other as a freedom-fighter with rifle and revolver salvaged from the last British 'adventure' in Afghanistan.
I love the "story" matches they do. I hope they go back to mostly historical stuff when they're done with WWSD, the historical shooting is #1 on here for good reason. It's fun and unique.
6:25 that was my question in the q&a xD
Sadly, I concur the 1911 and the Luger are as obsolete for this as an 1873 SAA. I love them all, but they sit in safes because better toys are now available. That said, those named toys were the best of the day.
How far away was that spinner Target?
Can i get a COD expansion pack with Karl's commentary? Cheers.
I would love to see a showdown of the straight pull rifles. m95/34 mannlicher vs. Swiss K-31. I valso wonder how they would do in a mud test compared to the turn bolt rifles.
Since you've been using Enfields here, have you two ever tried your hands at the Mad Minute? It might be another interesting way to compare the different models - especially if you only count shots that hit.
"Don't eat them, they're not ripe!"
Every time Ian got the spinner moving, he had to reload.
OK with the spinner, the goal is just to make it flip a whole revolution, right? It was hit with 45s and barely even got nudged. Looks pretty rage inducing to me, I don't dig that target. Heck I imagine it'd take even longer for a guy with a 9mm.
lon242 it can be rotated in 7-8 hits with 9mm
lon242 it's world war one right? Stick a Webley to it 😂
It's more an issue of magazine capacity than anything else. You're trying to build up enough momentum to flip it over, and reloading just _kills_ the momentum you've managed to dump into the spinner.
I have owned one. A Colt or S&W 1917 runs rings around the Webley's and both the Luger and the 1911s can run rings around the 1917s.
As others have said, magazine capacity is key with the spinner. With a 9mm with 15-17 rounds it’s easier to hit the spinner enough times to spin it without having to reload.
Dang it... Ian ya blew it lol jk I'll still play the lotto and if I win both InRange and Forgotten Weapons will still get 10% each ^_^
12:12 Heheh. Gives a decent idea of when this was recorded (Without just looking up the match date or something, obviously).
No, it really doesn't. ~K
Argh. My mistake then.
That was really odd with the spinner and the 45acp it looked liked you were firing 9mm. Usually when I shoot the bottom plate once the whole thing spins like 45 times, it is actually quite dangerous to try and stop it, you can really get it hurt trying to stop the spin. 45 stronk bruh. Low velocity high drag = powarh!
So much power that during military testing they couldn't even penetrate a WWII era helmet @ 20yd and a 9mm will do it out to 100yd-ish.
45 is good for its current purpose of running a can. For a carry gun, I prefer 9, but I wouldn't have my USP Tactical any other way than 45
+Kenneth Anderson Well velocity is more condusive to penetration than momentum.
Question mostly for Karl: My area doesn't appear to have any sort of events like this but I think there would be a lot of interest since Vermont has a strong gun culture. Any advice for someone who might be looking to set up match events like this? I'm not even entirely sure where to start other than finding a good location.
Since many european police agencies used .32 ACP/7.65 Browning for so long have you considered a match of so called "Mouse Gun" calibers?
There are many things to like about the classic 1911. The sights are not one of them.
On paper a Isapore should be a good rifle 10 Rounds of 7.62x51 Karl if You were Improve it what mods would You make ? Are the stripper clips unique to just the Isapore's
Which makes the American insistence of adopting the 7.62 NATO cartridge completely ridiculous. Oh the poor EM-2
Oh my god, 2-gun with freaking Mosin....
That spinner target screws everyone every time.
Next do a match with HiPoints. Pistols and Carbines :)
All 1911 and no Glock makes Karl something something....
Didn't Ian win that FG-42 vs BAR match?
Would be interesting to shoot a match with a Garand/ Remington Rand 1911, or to compare more directly with AR15 a M1 carbine
+Morehead edil8 czcams.com/video/fshr5KLTaZc/video.html
You seem a little flustered Karl
I know you are on WWI guns, but do you think the P38 of WWII was actually an advancement over the 1911? I know pistols really don't get much respect in military circles generally speaking. And by that reasoning are double/single actions like the Beretta M9 becoming obsolescent as well? Most of the 1911/2011 and double/single actions I see in use these days are relegated to competitive venues. Many of which, like the custom CZs, etc run quite well. BTW really enjoyed the rifle runs.
As you can see the 1911 is a far more difficult gun to handle, even with an experienced shooter. Anything that closes that training gap will have a significant advantage. Forget the mechanical differences.
Seeing them struggle makes me feel better about my own shittyness with the gun.
at pistol ranges, 9mm para is just as deadly as .45ACP, and much easier to handle.
In my humble opinion the 1911 isn't really hard to shoot well, it's just that old models have rather cruddy sights. Modern 1911's seem to have fixed that problem. I've had several novice shooters on my Springfield full size 9mm 1911 and my glock 19, and every single one prefers the 1911 so far, both for low recoil and ergonomic reasons.
As for the the lack of popularity of the DA/SA, part of me wonders if a major part of the push is the fact that a DAO style pistol requires less training and often does not require training the shooter to decock the pistol after each string of fire. This cuts down significantly on training time, but I often wonder if that truly makes a better shooter.
Ian shoots his Ballester a lot better than that Cimarron
What is harder the spinner or the Texas Star?
Spinner, by far. ~K
So what is that shirt Ian is wearing?
Old guns suck on the clock, that’s why they have revolver and cdp divisions.
Karl pulling that mag out like Ryan Phillipe. I'm surprised by how badly both of you did with the 1911, especially since I've seen both of you shoot 'worse' guns better.
Sights suck.
It's subtle but I think, not 100% sure, I think K dislikes the 1911
It sounds like karl wasn´t happy when he presented the stage.
+Exploatores I was in mandatory fun mode.
So we've established the obvious - historical guns don't work well compared to the modern equivalents. What about the browning Hi Power/P. 35? It seems to me that it's close enough to modern to compete with things like Glocks. Obviously you don't get a sighting system like a red dot, but the capacity is sure better than 7 (modern mags hold 15) and it's in 9mm. Is it still far behind the modern equivalents like the 1911 or is it actually still a functional/practical gun in a modern context while still being somewhat historically significant?
surprised Ian didnt shred Karl in this round
+RebSike Why is that?
InRangeTV Ians forte is more handgun shooting, correct? I thought I've heard that mentioned a couple times. I may have exaggerated with "shred" but I thought he had the edge this stage.
Karl's mini meltdown on CZcams for the world to see. .
eh.....there are still people out there, who claim a heavy 7 round handgun from year 1911 is ''good''?? Seriously, I rather take a Luger than this
craby man 9-round with excellent accuracy, good enough for me. I don't like polymer pistols. I suppose I could be talked into a CZ75, though.
Some think a .45 apc has almost magical propertys and the 1911 is a iconic pistol in that calibre. so it must be the pistol version of the katana. a hit in the pinky finger will kill the bad guy.
What good is making the target go ding if nothing falls down or spins?
As a combat/ competition pistol, the 1911 sucks compared to modern double-stack 9mms. But as a carry gun I think a 1911 is still good, it's big and heavy yes but it's relatively thin, it does have more power, and does leave a bigger hole, also because it's big and slow it's less likely to over penetrate. Besides, if you need more then 8 rounds of 45 acp you're having a really bad day.
@craby man what the fuck😂
Interesting you don't carry the ballester molina anymore. I would add though, as much as you maybe right for matches, ccw and matches are different. Imagine the large static target at only 7 feet away and the job is to draw and hit them. Sure, the stress is a 100 times more than, and the perceived improved characteristics of modern sidearms may help, but as long as the ccw piece is reliable and you can draw and fire efficiently/accurately, then why not a surplus or an older weapon? I'd say matches are great to prep you for ccw in line with mindset and competency with a weapon, but situational wise is more in line with deciding a duty piece i.e going into battle or gonna carry as a LEO vs a civilian whose chances are slim that'd they'd ever pull a gun and even slimmer that they'd shoot and even slimmer that they'd have to shoot more than a handful or rounds. If you have a 100% reliable 1911 that you are accurate with, weight whether you'd need more capacity and what fits you best. I've got a hi power (israeli Mk III, so semi modern) that is 100%, tho hell most the times I carry revolvers. If I feel undergunned, I'll just carry both lo. Enjoy the channel.
You want the best possible weapon you can have on you in the worst case scenario and a surplus sidearm is very rarely the best possible weapon that you can have on you. Why hamper yourself when you can have something better? You could still carry a 1860 cap and ball Colt revolver, but that'd be ill advised, and a WW1 style 1911 is also ill advised, etc... ~K
'Something better' is a good mix of some subjectivity, some objectivity, and characteristics of the situation as well. The qualifications for CCW in my mind is 1)Reliability and 2)Shooter's ability/comfortability with the gun. As long as it meets those, why not. And I'm talking within reason here (capable of repetitive fire like a semi auto pistol or a DA revolver, within the classical set of caliber range of .38 to .45, etc) . I shoot a 5 shot .38 well, it carries nicely,is reliable and I just like it. Objectively, capacity/reload speed is not as fast/much as a semi auto. Objectively it's smaller. Objectively it's more reliable (I know, most semi autos are on par with reliability, but the chances of a glock having a magazine failure or a failure due to the nature of being a semi auto are higher than a revolver failing to work). Subjectively it feels better in my hand than a small 9mm and I'm very comfortable. Bottom line, if I have to draw and shoot I have 5 guaranteed shots every time I pull the trigger. And for the situation I'm in, it will statistically be more than enough. It could be an outlier case where I need more than 5, but for comfort and the chances alone I make the trade-off. CCW itself inherently has trade-offs. The better weapon to use against another human is a rifle, but it's too impractical. And that trade-off can be equated with comfortability and shoot-ability of a handgun. Even further, if I say shoot a .380 PPK the same as cz-75, I must weight the actual chances of an encounter and the actual chances of what that encounter will be like with what is more comfortable for me to carry. These are civilian situations. Of course, heavy modern day combat I'd take a glock/beretta/cz/hi-power. Heavy training with those basically equates them, as long as they are all 100% reliable. I don't knock carrying a glock, but carrying an older gun as long as it's 100% is no less of a trade off as not carrying an AR everywhere. Technically a trade-off, sure, but realistically wise way less so than you'd think.
IDK Karl, are you a fan of the 1911? I'm unclear after this video.
+Erik Johnson Big fan.
The M1917 Enfield isn't the best bolt action rifle. It's just the _least shit._
This is a perfect example of a defeated man mindset inducing poor performance. Because we’ve all seen Karl smoke drills before with a 1911 on the clock, but this was terrible
Quick, someone give Karl a German gun!
We should keep in mind that small arms account for a relatively small amount of casualties in modern wars. That 1911 wasn't responsible for you missing the target, I am sure it is very capable of hitting those targets, most of the time it's the shooter not the equipment.
Yeah I'm not have sure he would have finished the stage with his red dot equipped G19 either, he was missing a lot.
Was the 1911 responsible? Of course not, but it certainly makes the task harder. The sights on this era of 1911 are tiny and difficult to acquire, and the low capacity forces reloads that can negate a large part of the momentum you have managed.
I don't think that is an original 1911, pretty sure it has ok sights, at least better than original. Ian starts out shooting very well but at about the middle of the plate rack he speeds up starts missing and never gets back under control. It happens to all of us, the timer effect, things go poorly so you speed up and miss faster. When you have less than perfect sights or less than perfect triggers you have to more patient and precise, both those are much much more difficult when that timer is running. Not knocking Ian at all, but blaming the pistol just isn't right.
Nope, it is a Cimarron replica of a pre-A1 1911, complete with the crapy WWI style sights.
Nope it has 1911 A1 sights and Karl even replaced the rear sight. czcams.com/video/FEyz0XfhMYQ/video.html
The sights aren't great but many of us used them in competition for years until better sights came along. Better sights on a handgun will allow you to shoot faster and more accurately, especially faster but don't compensate for shooting errors.
I will admit to being a bit biased, I do love the 1911 even thou it's fashionable these days to bash it. It won't produce hits by itself just like any other pistol.
You guys can't afford Walmart hula hoops?
+Donald Weber Yeah, we can afford them.
Walmart hula hoops and some U shaped landscape stakes makes cheap, but pretty, start boxes, along with entertainment while setting up.