I had a buddy who worked at a large machine shop. They machined aviation specific bolts. Although they were the same as other bolts that they made, they cost considerably more due to all of the documentation that needed to follow them. It was crazy as both bolts were made at the same time.
I’m loving it man! I’d guess that $40 plug breaks down like… $10 for the FAA hoops they had to jump through for certification. $15 for the legal fund to defend themselves when one fails. $5 to produce part. $10 profit. Just a guess….
Doesn't always help but check out the rules regarding "owner produced parts" and AC 23-27 regarding substitute parts you might be surprised at what you are allowed to use. Oh and I'm sure you are familiar with the 30 some odd maintenance items the FAA allows an owner to perform? Forget that list, do a search for the FAA's letter to "Coleal-Bombardier" dated February 26, 2009.
The cost for FAA TSO is crazy and they pass that cost along to the consumer. Also, many of these companies don’t have the scaled business that automotive companies do which increases their unit cost. However, I do think they take advantage of GA. But, the market supports the price.
The Market doesn't have a Choice. Want to have your eyes opened, take a look sometime at instruments from the same company, same Model, and the price difference between "Experimental" and "Certified". ZERO Difference, they came off of the same lines, are built to the same standards, but that little TSO stamp means you pay around 3X the price. Sadly one of the things that TSO does is hamper Innovation. it's the same reason that we haven't had any REAL new advancements when it comes to powerplants. Overall, if you look at things, aside from Rotax, there really hasn't been much movement...oh, a lot of people have TRIED, there are some really interesting looking Diesels out there...Problem is, without Musk or Bezos money, who can afford to take the hit for the Millions of dollars for Certification. Hell, look at the nightmare it's been getting Unleaded Avgas certified, even as you have areas in Californiia that banned 100LL. One really impressive Diesel option was rolled out at Airventure in 2019. They were actively seeking builders to buy their engines, and start getting hours in the air...at a cost of Over $100K Firewall-Forward. Needless to say, they got few if any takers..most people getting into Experimental are trying to SAVE money, not equal the cost of a brand New Certified Aircraft., or be the literal Guinea Pigs for new Engines.
You’ve so perfectly described our sad reality. Another problem is, changing the system is u likely to be a priority for any lawmaker. The aviation community simply doesn’t contain enough votes!
Bonanza people have been offering a reward of over half a million to any company that will sertify replacement tail skins and nobys tried. Goes to show how expensive the faa is.
Up to this moment, probably out of sheer negligence, I was completely unaware of the fact that you made hand tools. I'd be thrilled to know, where I might take a look at your products. Not promising that I will buy a truckload, but I am always on the lookout for nice tools. 😉
I try not to mention it too much, but it is a major passion of mine. I run the manufacturing department at Tekton. Check out our website tekton.com, I think you'll like what you see! Don't hesitate with any questions!!!
@@MyTimeToFly you are right! I like what I saw. It seems to be a very nicely assorted production of quality hand tools, both metric and imperial! Doesn't seem like something one would have to "hide". 😉
I wonder how much of this is markup to cover the risk of getting sued. I know Mike Busch has a paper on how these risks impact mechanics. I suspect it's the same story for parts suppliers. I've noticed that a part in the experimental world is a lot cheaper than the exact same part in the certified world. My guess is that's entirely due to the lawsuit risks that come from the certified world.
You should see what the Air Force pays for parts! GA costs have gone crazy and some have said general aviation is dead. While it obviously isn’t dead, it is dying.
I hear you on the Air Force costs, I worked with a gentleman who spent many years machining defense aerospace parts. The costs of the raw material alone (Inconel, titanium, etc.) is outrageous. It’s also crazy difficult to machine. Finally, that’s truly a world of low volume production!
I really love the idea of the Viking (I drive / rebuild Honda cars). However, it’s not available to put in the Mooney. I would strongly consider it for an experimental airplane.
Between insurance and lower overall market size, it’s really not surprising aviation is more expensive. And I’m in the market for 24 fine wire plugs….sheesh!
Between that golden certification and people being sue happy, a new 172 comes with an additional $250k in insurance policies for when someone tries to take them to court. That’s half the cost of the airplane!!!
Its not about what it actually cost to manufacter a part. Its about getting it certified to some FAA standard. And of course the liability the manufacter has to assume when they put those parts on the market. But still I think prices are still way too high for certified aircraft. I would like to have an experimental plane at some point. But right now I got what I got.
I’m with you on the experimental thing. Here’s my problem…the cost we pay for part certification must come off the price of the part eventually. These parts aren’t changing and being re-certified constantly. I’m sure there’s some insurance risk, but I’m also sure there is some “they’ll pay it” mentality as well.
Wow man, great topic to discuss. Certification is both a positive and a negative. Positive that it provides you with "assurance" the product is up to the job. Negative that it holds back product evolution and development. This is one of the reasons I decided to go with an auto conversion engine for my Velocity build. I don't consider it cheaping out, but going with modern technology, mass produced, mass tested by millions of customers performing billions of test hours under all conditions from 70 Yo grandmas to 18 Yo teens drag racing and drifting on saturday nights. Also hundreds of millions (or billions) are spent on research and development so each iteration of the product is better and cheaper than the last. Billions of dollars and big reputations are wagered on automotive products being reliable and robust. And also platinum/iridium spark plugs and coils for cars will do thousands of hours before needing replacing or even checked. Whether a car engine can, or should turn a propeller for an aircraft is another argument all together and not for this comment section.
@@MyTimeToFly Yes, the Turbo 195HP. Knowing what I know about engines, there is no way I'd feel comfortable converting an engine myself. Happy to maintain it though.
@@MyTimeToFly Yeah its easy to drink the viking coolaid. But before I found viking I did a lot of research on aircraft engines, watched/listened to pretty much all of Mike Busch's lectures on aircraft engines, most of them twice. I concluded I didn't have the resources if there was a major issue like a bad cylinder. That would ground me for several months, even if I supplied the labour for repairs. A full engine overhaul would financially wreck me and my family for several months. Besides I get a simple to operate single power lever, variable pitch prop that will be more akin to a car CVT than a CSU (once I program it) and turbo charging for high altitude cruising speeds and full power takeoffs on hot days without the negatives to engine life/weight and expense. Nothing against traditional aircraft engines, I think their story arc was shaped when it was asked to be aircooled and deal with 100LL but that's a deep rabbit hole to get started on.
I would like to know those costs as well, but it doesn’t seem they could be too crazy. This is “proven” technology with tremendous redundancy built in.
I agree with you. I’m also in the mindset that it costs $140 an hour to fly , I’m not worried about a $100 plug. I recently watched videos on avionics upgrades. It was insane. And learned of the hurdles and cost to achieve a medical for disabled veterans, especially those with ptsd. It’s a continuous expense
The prices are crazy. That’s why I’m really thinking about going to an experimental aircraft. When we all get shifted to unleaded gas our plugs will be cleaner and we can use synthetic oil. Dunno if that’ll be cheaper or worth the price of fuel increase.
I’m with you. I actually said the other day that “experimental will be the only path for the future of General Aviation”. Certified airplanes will price themselves extinct with the exception of flight schools and corporations. Just my opinion!
I have a 68 and you can buy switch/breakers on aircraft spruce for about 30 dollars. I may know someone who did that. Some people would interpret an electrical switch as a standardized part and therefore doesn't need a TSO blah blah blah.
Litigation is really where the high costs began. In the 70's or 80's just about every crash/death resulted in the surviving family suing every manufacturer who contributed a component to the aircraft in question. 7 years ago Vans RV was sued for 35 million when a pilot/builder incorrectly used rtv in the fuel system, resulting crash killed his step-granddaughter. Same issues drive up the cost of healthcare. FAA rules create monopolies which doesn't help us either, I think they got their POH from the FDA.
I agree with you, but 35 million is pennies compared to the automotive world. Just some recent examples: 2016 VW Emissions - 14.7 Billion 2014 Toyota Acceleration Issue - 1.2 Billion 2011 GM Ignition Switch - 900 Million Ford Explorer Rollovers - 1 Billion These are just the big ones!
@@MyTimeToFly I had one of the TDI Passats affected by that, was still a great car until it sucked parts of the turbo into the engine. Automotive industry is in a vastly different economy of scale though…
Had a valve stick recently. Resulting in a cylinder change….3k latter I have a new cylinder. Oh, had to change the oil and filter, too. Old joke is a boat is a hole in the water where you pour your money….if only I bought a boat.
Its definitely extortion. They know you need it and you will buy it regardless. Then they say its for the "certification " I have a GTX345 certified in my plane. Look up the cost difference between experimental and certified. That will make you sick and its the same unit.
here's an interesting item in the vain of what you're speaking about. Back when aerospatiale were developing the AS350 Ecureil helicopter , better referred to as Squirrel, aka Astar , they were having issues with the company manufactured oil cooler and , I don't know what lead to them going down this path but they fitted a modified radiator off a Citroen motor vehicle as the oil cooler and it worked significantly better than the purpose built unit and was a crap ton cheaper too although I don't know if this is still the case with this particular aircraft
Too funny, who would have thought a car part could save the day. It seems like Honda could start an entire division of piston aircraft engines, and rule the market!
@@MyTimeToFly I believe there are several automotive engines like VW , Subaru, the LS1 V8 as used by some Holden and Chevy even BMW that have been converted for aviation use but I don't know if they can be used on certified aircraft, definitely on experimental category and I guess despite the conversion and engineering approval costs they would still be an economical option for those aircraft. On a side note I work as an avionics tech and I just recently executed a full avionics upgrade on a piper Aztec and the Alt Inop lights basically turned into powder through age and we simply replaced them with new units from a local bulk electronics supplier, they were easier to fit, globes are easier to change and my boss who has multiple licences said these were fine for the intended use and some of the parts like switches , terminals and consumables that we purchase through aviation supply channels are identical in construction and specifications to commmercial retail items....with the exception of the number on the packaging that seems to cost a fortune funnily enough
There are certainly some “converted” engines available, but they’ve never really taken hold. It’s taking 3rd party colonies like Viking or Jabiru to take on the work, rather than the OEM.
I think you just helped me realize I honestly can never hope to own a plane unless someone comes along and bridges the gap between Automotive and Aviation worlds. I get it, a lot of these things probably have to go through some sort of approval process for the Aviation use but still does that make it worth more than double or triple the price at best. I hear a lot of people on the Aviation channels here saying how welcoming and all inclusive the GA Av community is and try to make it seem like it's not a rich person's hobby but the more I look in the window the less that seems true. Engine overhauls cost as much as "cheap luxury cars" which seems more like an average price for family car at this point. General maintenance items are nearly 1000% higher for everything as you outlined here. I guess if I continue down this road and go for my certificate I'll just have to rent and hope to be able to rent often enough to stay proficient. Also maybe you can plug your tool company so some of us that use tools can maybe support you in purchasing your products.
Remember there are great options that maintain the best of both worlds (ownership / renting). Options like flying clubs, or partnerships can really help to cut down costs of ownership, but tend to have pilots with pride in ownership still!
Don’t forget about the experimental market. It’s much cheaper to operate and maintain them. Either way it’s not cheap but you can absolutely find a way to afford it if you want to.
@@zachschaneberger I doubt my family or at least my wife would get in a plane that said experimental anywhere on it. Are their many options that are good for cross country flight? I have a few destinations that would be between 2 to 4 hours in a 172 and carry a decent amount of weight since I'm husky myself. So probably something around the capabilities of a Cessna 172 or Piper PA 28 (Archer, Cherokee) as these where the kind of planes I was initially thinking may be a good family cross country plane.
Perhaps the name should be updated someday. Many “experimental” airplanes are very far from experimental. They are tried and tested with thousands of examples flying around the world.
Well, this is why because it is a limited field of purchase there are those that fly in those that don’t it’s like the have and the have Nots they can charge you that much because they can because they know you’re going to pay for it know some of these things Like oil filters and air filters. I don’t see that there’s any reason you can’t use something similar to a car the only thing I can think of is that they make sure that the threading for say like an oil filter is not correct it’s specific to Lycoming or continental same thing with the air filter. Maybe it’s just shade too short or too wide or something And they do it specifically and it’s not right they’re doing it on purpose and they want to make you bleed for it. There’s just got to be things that you can substitute like for instance hydraulic hoses. There are hydraulic hoses that they put on caterpillars and track holes in front end loaders these things use massive amounts of pressure for hydraulics but yet you can’t use an industrial Hydraulic hose on an airplane because it doesn’t say FAA it’s a load of garbage personally, I would use some of the things I can get a hold of regularly and when it comes time for inspection just swap the stuff out I don’t know if that would actually work, but it’s just ridiculous and it’s not right, so how do we fix it?
Is the mark up pretty large? Yes, yes it is. Is it a reward for jumping through all the bureaucracy of paper work and regulations? yes, yes it is. This isn't a political statement, but you let the .gov get involved or oversee anything and it will take much longer and cost much more, especially if their goal is streamlining and cost cutting. Look at experimental rated electronics compared to certified. You pay a ton of money for that behind the scenes paperwork for essentially the same product. The thing that should really miff you is the fact that all of this regulation has deterred advancement in the GA industry. We're flying planes with engines that have little advancement over a 1940's motorcycle. If it wasn't so expensive to advance technology, we'd have more reliable and efficient engines, electronics, safer airplane construction. Not to mention it's a huge roadblock to competition. The very thing established to make us safer is actually doing the opposite. It's no wonder the experimental market has gone crazy. I won't even get into the fact that the number of A&Ps is dwindling faster than blue check marks at tweetster.
I would love to see an analysis of what it would cost to make a perfect copy of a Toyota Corolla without any tooling. Not counting the millions of dollars it would take to recreate the electronics & programming, I bet just a non-functional perfect copy (to the same accuracy as a production Toyota) would cost somewhere around ten million dollars. The engine alone has several hundred parts. The problem with general aviation is that it's just too small to scale into what is the miracle of mass production... We take for granted that something that would take $10MM to make one of, can be made for $15k each if you make 100,000/year. That said, I'm sure the paperwork and so on adds a ridiculous amount... I'm not disagreeing with any of that. :)
I certainly agree there are extreme costs to small production runs of parts and that we do take for granted the scale of automotive manufacturing. But, I also know that making 1 is much different than making 1,000 if the right methods are used. With CNC technology and additive manufacturing, the costs of things could reduce. I’ll take an oil filter as an example. If you go to the auto parts store there are a hundred or more filters, different sizes, brands, “quality levels” etc. What makes our oil filter not just another style on the shelf for the same price? In the US along there are over 200,000 GA aircraft. If each one changed their filter twice a year that’s 400,000 filters. There is no “scale” difference between 400,000 and any number really.
Prices are due to FAA/PMA certification and product liability. The lawsuits before congress mitigated some of the liability really impacted manufacturing. It costs too much to do new products with all the FAA regs. Ask any FAA/PMA manufacturer.
I don't doubt what your saying, it just seems there could be some common sense injected into aviation. It's not like parts on our airplanes fail less often than car parts, even with FAA/PMA certification.
Same reason why parts for a Mercedes Benz cost 4x’s as much as comparable parts for a Japanese or American built car. The end user is willing to pay that price.
There must be a way to exchange an aviation engine with an automobile engine that would work, even if you had to decertify your plane and make it experimental.
I plan on buying my first moony what are the most important things I need to look for. I don’t want to spend 100K and found nice once I can fix up for around 20-30K. What’s your thoughts please
Look into experimental. I love it. There’s no way I’d be able to afford a 150kt, aerobatic, soon to be ifr airplane under 30 years old otherwise. Just the panel in my plane would send me to the poor house if it were for a certified plane, if it’s even available for the airframe.
I couldn't agree more! Sounds like you're an RV guy? I will certainly be going the way of the experimental in the future, but for now this Mooney is my cheapest way to fly (even though I'll still complain about the prices).
@@MyTimeToFly yes sir, started certified in a Cessna then sold for an rv6. Experimental is no excuse to cut corners, but it’s nice when you want a few more options on Maintenance and upgrades
i can sand blast any spark plug and make it as good as new This is the biggest waste of money i see most people throw away replacing hardly worn or used spark plugs
I think the only way Aviation get cheaper is by much higher demand. Meaning we need a lot more people to have an airplane. Or why do you think you can by spark plugs only 3$ for your car?
@@MyTimeToFly 2003 Cummins 2002 Grady White 330 Express Also old but well taken care of 🤙 Not to mention.....paid for. Edit: I wish I could own a plane, I can't afford what I would want, but I'm not scared of getting my PPL
@@MyTimeToFly I'd love a Husky, every time I see one I stop and appreciate it. Mooney is a good bird....sorry yours has to move on, but life demands on nobody's schedule. Fly, Sail and travel safe!
Capitalism... they charge it because people buy it. I'm sure some of the inflation does go towards certifications and legal donations but I have a hard time believing that it's not mostly corporate greed.
just as in motorcycle industry they sell you specially blended motor oils that they claim is better for your wet clutches.False i have been testing this for over 35 years and notice no difference at all. so buy a quart of automotive oil for 5 bucks a quart? or 10 dollars a quart from the Dealership? Gold Course Industry Same Thing Major Price Gauging cause its a Rich Mans World
lol, your percentage rates are way off. And you are comparing a Honda accord motor to an airplane motor. Not even close. Diesel truck parts are not cheap either. Glad it’s not as expensive as I thought. It’s comparable to buying parts for Ford or Chevy Diesels. Not sure about plane motors. But diesel engines have glow plugs not spark plugs which are much more expensive to replace. I think around $1200
I had a buddy who worked at a large machine shop. They machined aviation specific bolts. Although they were the same as other bolts that they made, they cost considerably more due to all of the documentation that needed to follow them. It was crazy as both bolts were made at the same time.
Haha, I’ve seen the very same thing in an FDA setting. It’s crazy how much “politics” can dictate cost! Not to get political.
I’m loving it man! I’d guess that $40 plug breaks down like… $10 for the FAA hoops they had to jump through for certification. $15 for the legal fund to defend themselves when one fails. $5 to produce part. $10 profit. Just a guess….
That's probably fairly accurate, and unfortunate. Thanks for being here Jonathan!
Doesn't always help but check out the rules regarding "owner produced parts" and AC 23-27 regarding substitute parts you might be surprised at what you are allowed to use. Oh and I'm sure you are familiar with the 30 some odd maintenance items the FAA allows an owner to perform? Forget that list, do a search for the FAA's letter to "Coleal-Bombardier" dated February 26, 2009.
Thank you for those resources, I will most certainly go check them out!
The cost for FAA TSO is crazy and they pass that cost along to the consumer. Also, many of these companies don’t have the scaled business that automotive companies do which increases their unit cost. However, I do think they take advantage of GA. But, the market supports the price.
Well you’ve said something very true there, we just keep paying!
The Market doesn't have a Choice. Want to have your eyes opened, take a look sometime at instruments from the same company, same Model, and the price difference between "Experimental" and "Certified". ZERO Difference, they came off of the same lines, are built to the same standards, but that little TSO stamp means you pay around 3X the price. Sadly one of the things that TSO does is hamper Innovation. it's the same reason that we haven't had any REAL new advancements when it comes to powerplants. Overall, if you look at things, aside from Rotax, there really hasn't been much movement...oh, a lot of people have TRIED, there are some really interesting looking Diesels out there...Problem is, without Musk or Bezos money, who can afford to take the hit for the Millions of dollars for Certification. Hell, look at the nightmare it's been getting Unleaded Avgas certified, even as you have areas in Californiia that banned 100LL. One really impressive Diesel option was rolled out at Airventure in 2019. They were actively seeking builders to buy their engines, and start getting hours in the air...at a cost of Over $100K Firewall-Forward. Needless to say, they got few if any takers..most people getting into Experimental are trying to SAVE money, not equal the cost of a brand New Certified Aircraft., or be the literal Guinea Pigs for new Engines.
You’ve so perfectly described our sad reality. Another problem is, changing the system is u likely to be a priority for any lawmaker. The aviation community simply doesn’t contain enough votes!
Bonanza people have been offering a reward of over half a million to any company that will sertify replacement tail skins and nobys tried. Goes to show how expensive the faa is.
Truth! I did hear somebody is making the again, perhaps it's Beechcraft themselves.
Up to this moment, probably out of sheer negligence, I was completely unaware of the fact that you made hand tools.
I'd be thrilled to know, where I might take a look at your products. Not promising that I will buy a truckload, but I am always on the lookout for nice tools. 😉
I try not to mention it too much, but it is a major passion of mine. I run the manufacturing department at Tekton. Check out our website tekton.com, I think you'll like what you see! Don't hesitate with any questions!!!
@@MyTimeToFly you are right! I like what I saw. It seems to be a very nicely assorted production of quality hand tools,
both metric and imperial!
Doesn't seem like something one would have to "hide". 😉
Thanks so much, I’m very proud of what we do.
I wonder how much of this is markup to cover the risk of getting sued. I know Mike Busch has a paper on how these risks impact mechanics. I suspect it's the same story for parts suppliers. I've noticed that a part in the experimental world is a lot cheaper than the exact same part in the certified world. My guess is that's entirely due to the lawsuit risks that come from the certified world.
I believe this to be unfortunately true.
Just another reason I like my Experimental Zenith...I use NGK Iridium Auto plugs, K&N Filter and a washable automotive air filter...
Thats so awesome Scott! You've probably told me before, but what engine do you have in it?
@@MyTimeToFly I have a UL Power 350is (130 HP) full FADEC engine.
Roger that! I’ve been watching the DarkAero guys and their UL powered prototype, pretty sweet blend of a classic engine and newer tech!
@@MyTimeToFly If you are interested here is a short video I made on my engine. czcams.com/video/RAO39xap0hY/video.html
That is a CRAZY amount of space behind the engine. It's the complete opposite of my Mooney.
You should see what the Air Force pays for parts! GA costs have gone crazy and some have said general aviation is dead. While it obviously isn’t dead, it is dying.
I hear you on the Air Force costs, I worked with a gentleman who spent many years machining defense aerospace parts. The costs of the raw material alone (Inconel, titanium, etc.) is outrageous. It’s also crazy difficult to machine. Finally, that’s truly a world of low volume production!
Try putting a "Viking" engine in your airplane, it is a Honda motor, I think the biggest is 195 horsepower
I really love the idea of the Viking (I drive / rebuild Honda cars). However, it’s not available to put in the Mooney. I would strongly consider it for an experimental airplane.
@@MyTimeToFly there's got to be a way to turn your airplane into an experimental airplane, and then figure out how to install this thing
Between insurance and lower overall market size, it’s really not surprising aviation is more expensive. And I’m in the market for 24 fine wire plugs….sheesh!
Yikes, I'd have to take a loan for those plugs. I agree it's not surprising, but I do believe there are ways to change the curve a bit!
Between that golden certification and people being sue happy, a new 172 comes with an additional $250k in insurance policies for when someone tries to take them to court. That’s half the cost of the airplane!!!
Just freaking crazy. I love hearing your perspective as an A&P!
@@MyTimeToFly I love pretending like I know what I’m talking about😂😂😂
Hahaha, too funny man!
I am gonna have to put a Lycoming IO-390-EXP in and RV-14A and the engine cost $60,000.00 and that's with the Van's builder discount! Insane!!!
Unreal! Someone else mentioned the Viking engine, has anyone out one in an RV?
It's a racket and extortion!!
It certainly feels that way sometimes.
Its not about what it actually cost to manufacter a part. Its about getting it certified to some FAA standard. And of course the liability the manufacter has to assume when they put those parts on the market. But still I think prices are still way too high for certified aircraft. I would like to have an experimental plane at some point. But right now I got what I got.
I’m with you on the experimental thing. Here’s my problem…the cost we pay for part certification must come off the price of the part eventually. These parts aren’t changing and being re-certified constantly. I’m sure there’s some insurance risk, but I’m also sure there is some “they’ll pay it” mentality as well.
The oil is 61% more expensive; not 161% more.
I knew I’d say it wrong, I appreciate the correction!
Wow man, great topic to discuss. Certification is both a positive and a negative. Positive that it provides you with "assurance" the product is up to the job. Negative that it holds back product evolution and development.
This is one of the reasons I decided to go with an auto conversion engine for my Velocity build.
I don't consider it cheaping out, but going with modern technology, mass produced, mass tested by millions of customers performing billions of test hours under all conditions from 70 Yo grandmas to 18 Yo teens drag racing and drifting on saturday nights.
Also hundreds of millions (or billions) are spent on research and development so each iteration of the product is better and cheaper than the last. Billions of dollars and big reputations are wagered on automotive products being reliable and robust.
And also platinum/iridium spark plugs and coils for cars will do thousands of hours before needing replacing or even checked.
Whether a car engine can, or should turn a propeller for an aircraft is another argument all together and not for this comment section.
Very well said Clint. Did you go Honda by Viking?
@@MyTimeToFly Yes, the Turbo 195HP. Knowing what I know about engines, there is no way I'd feel comfortable converting an engine myself. Happy to maintain it though.
Very awesome! I’ve done some research on the Viking engines, and although there are always some doubters, I really like them.
@@MyTimeToFly Yeah its easy to drink the viking coolaid. But before I found viking I did a lot of research on aircraft engines, watched/listened to pretty much all of Mike Busch's lectures on aircraft engines, most of them twice. I concluded I didn't have the resources if there was a major issue like a bad cylinder. That would ground me for several months, even if I supplied the labour for repairs. A full engine overhaul would financially wreck me and my family for several months.
Besides I get a simple to operate single power lever, variable pitch prop that will be more akin to a car CVT than a CSU (once I program it) and turbo charging for high altitude cruising speeds and full power takeoffs on hot days without the negatives to engine life/weight and expense.
Nothing against traditional aircraft engines, I think their story arc was shaped when it was asked to be aircooled and deal with 100LL but that's a deep rabbit hole to get started on.
do you think the cost is due to legal and or insurance protections for the manufacturer? I wonder what their liability premiums are like
I would like to know those costs as well, but it doesn’t seem they could be too crazy. This is “proven” technology with tremendous redundancy built in.
I agree with you. I’m also in the mindset that it costs $140 an hour to fly , I’m not worried about a $100 plug. I recently watched videos on avionics upgrades. It was insane. And learned of the hurdles and cost to achieve a medical for disabled veterans, especially those with ptsd. It’s a continuous expense
It all adds up so quickly, it’s really a miracle we keep any of our vintage planes flying!
The prices are crazy. That’s why I’m really thinking about going to an experimental aircraft. When we all get shifted to unleaded gas our plugs will be cleaner and we can use synthetic oil. Dunno if that’ll be cheaper or worth the price of fuel increase.
I’m with you. I actually said the other day that “experimental will be the only path for the future of General Aviation”. Certified airplanes will price themselves extinct with the exception of flight schools and corporations. Just my opinion!
@@MyTimeToFly Price for certification is definitely too high. For less than a new 172 you can get some good experimentals that are already built.
No doubt! Sling / Vans will take over the GA space.
I was just quoted $730 today for a replacement switch for my landing light (1967 M20F). Absurd.
That’s insane! Probably a $3.00 switch at the car parts store!
I have a 68 and you can buy switch/breakers on aircraft spruce for about 30 dollars. I may know someone who did that. Some people would interpret an electrical switch as a standardized part and therefore doesn't need a TSO blah blah blah.
I like that interpretation!
The cost to entry, a PPL, is pretty crazy expensive
Yes it is. I’m glad I got mine back in the day (2003). I did it in a 150/152 for around $5,000.
Litigation is really where the high costs began. In the 70's or 80's just about every crash/death resulted in the surviving family suing every manufacturer who contributed a component to the aircraft in question. 7 years ago Vans RV was sued for 35 million when a pilot/builder incorrectly used rtv in the fuel system, resulting crash killed his step-granddaughter. Same issues drive up the cost of healthcare. FAA rules create monopolies which doesn't help us either, I think they got their POH from the FDA.
I agree with you, but 35 million is pennies compared to the automotive world. Just some recent examples:
2016 VW Emissions - 14.7 Billion
2014 Toyota Acceleration Issue - 1.2 Billion
2011 GM Ignition Switch - 900 Million
Ford Explorer Rollovers - 1 Billion
These are just the big ones!
@@MyTimeToFly I had one of the TDI Passats affected by that, was still a great car until it sucked parts of the turbo into the engine. Automotive industry is in a vastly different economy of scale though…
Agreed on the economy of scale, I had an affected Jetta…sold it back!
@@MyTimeToFly Mine was leased and I tripled the allowable mileage... it was a shit show.
Sounds like it. I ended up driving my Jetta for something like 2.5 years and only paid $2,000 total after they bought it back.
Had a valve stick recently. Resulting in a cylinder change….3k latter I have a new cylinder. Oh, had to change the oil and filter, too. Old joke is a boat is a hole in the water where you pour your money….if only I bought a boat.
Sorry to hear about the cylinder! You're spot on, boats might seem like a cheap hobby for a pilot.
@@MyTimeToFly just part of owning a 60 year old airplane
Amen to that!
Exorbitant costs are 99% of the reasons why I haven’t started flying. Time is the other 1%.
I’m sorry to hear this, I wish the cost was different too!
Its definitely extortion. They know you need it and you will buy it regardless.
Then they say its for the "certification " I have a GTX345 certified in my plane.
Look up the cost difference between experimental and certified.
That will make you sick and its the same unit.
I completely agree wit you Tommy!
here's an interesting item in the vain of what you're speaking about. Back when aerospatiale were developing the AS350 Ecureil helicopter , better referred to as Squirrel, aka Astar , they were having issues with the company manufactured oil cooler and , I don't know what lead to them going down this path but they fitted a modified radiator off a Citroen motor vehicle as the oil cooler and it worked significantly better than the purpose built unit and was a crap ton cheaper too although I don't know if this is still the case with this particular aircraft
Too funny, who would have thought a car part could save the day. It seems like Honda could start an entire division of piston aircraft engines, and rule the market!
@@MyTimeToFly I believe there are several automotive engines like VW , Subaru, the LS1 V8 as used by some Holden and Chevy even BMW that have been converted for aviation use but I don't know if they can be used on certified aircraft, definitely on experimental category and I guess despite the conversion and engineering approval costs they would still be an economical option for those aircraft. On a side note I work as an avionics tech and I just recently executed a full avionics upgrade on a piper Aztec and the Alt Inop lights basically turned into powder through age and we simply replaced them with new units from a local bulk electronics supplier, they were easier to fit, globes are easier to change and my boss who has multiple licences said these were fine for the intended use and some of the parts like switches , terminals and consumables that we purchase through aviation supply channels are identical in construction and specifications to commmercial retail items....with the exception of the number on the packaging that seems to cost a fortune funnily enough
There are certainly some “converted” engines available, but they’ve never really taken hold. It’s taking 3rd party colonies like Viking or Jabiru to take on the work, rather than the OEM.
I think you just helped me realize I honestly can never hope to own a plane unless someone comes along and bridges the gap between Automotive and Aviation worlds. I get it, a lot of these things probably have to go through some sort of approval process for the Aviation use but still does that make it worth more than double or triple the price at best. I hear a lot of people on the Aviation channels here saying how welcoming and all inclusive the GA Av community is and try to make it seem like it's not a rich person's hobby but the more I look in the window the less that seems true. Engine overhauls cost as much as "cheap luxury cars" which seems more like an average price for family car at this point. General maintenance items are nearly 1000% higher for everything as you outlined here. I guess if I continue down this road and go for my certificate I'll just have to rent and hope to be able to rent often enough to stay proficient. Also maybe you can plug your tool company so some of us that use tools can maybe support you in purchasing your products.
Remember there are great options that maintain the best of both worlds (ownership / renting). Options like flying clubs, or partnerships can really help to cut down costs of ownership, but tend to have pilots with pride in ownership still!
Don’t forget about the experimental market. It’s much cheaper to operate and maintain them. Either way it’s not cheap but you can absolutely find a way to afford it if you want to.
@@zachschaneberger I doubt my family or at least my wife would get in a plane that said experimental anywhere on it. Are their many options that are good for cross country flight? I have a few destinations that would be between 2 to 4 hours in a 172 and carry a decent amount of weight since I'm husky myself. So probably something around the capabilities of a Cessna 172 or Piper PA 28 (Archer, Cherokee) as these where the kind of planes I was initially thinking may be a good family cross country plane.
Perhaps the name should be updated someday. Many “experimental” airplanes are very far from experimental. They are tried and tested with thousands of examples flying around the world.
I think experimental IS the future of general aviation!
Thank You 😌.
My pleasure!
Well, this is why because it is a limited field of purchase there are those that fly in those that don’t it’s like the have and the have Nots they can charge you that much because they can because they know you’re going to pay for it know some of these things Like oil filters and air filters. I don’t see that there’s any reason you can’t use something similar to a car the only thing I can think of is that they make sure that the threading for say like an oil filter is not correct it’s specific to Lycoming or continental same thing with the air filter. Maybe it’s just shade too short or too wide or something And they do it specifically and it’s not right they’re doing it on purpose and they want to make you bleed for it. There’s just got to be things that you can substitute like for instance hydraulic hoses. There are hydraulic hoses that they put on caterpillars and track holes in front end loaders these things use massive amounts of pressure for hydraulics but yet you can’t use an industrial Hydraulic hose on an airplane because it doesn’t say FAA it’s a load of garbage personally, I would use some of the things I can get a hold of regularly and when it comes time for inspection just swap the stuff out I don’t know if that would actually work, but it’s just ridiculous and it’s not right, so how do we fix it?
I'm not sure how we fix it, perhaps speed up the movement to experimental aircraft!
Is the mark up pretty large? Yes, yes it is. Is it a reward for jumping through all the bureaucracy of paper work and regulations? yes, yes it is. This isn't a political statement, but you let the .gov get involved or oversee anything and it will take much longer and cost much more, especially if their goal is streamlining and cost cutting. Look at experimental rated electronics compared to certified. You pay a ton of money for that behind the scenes paperwork for essentially the same product. The thing that should really miff you is the fact that all of this regulation has deterred advancement in the GA industry. We're flying planes with engines that have little advancement over a 1940's motorcycle. If it wasn't so expensive to advance technology, we'd have more reliable and efficient engines, electronics, safer airplane construction. Not to mention it's a huge roadblock to competition. The very thing established to make us safer is actually doing the opposite. It's no wonder the experimental market has gone crazy. I won't even get into the fact that the number of A&Ps is dwindling faster than blue check marks at tweetster.
So many good points! Thanks for the comment, you speak a ton of truth.
I would love to see an analysis of what it would cost to make a perfect copy of a Toyota Corolla without any tooling. Not counting the millions of dollars it would take to recreate the electronics & programming, I bet just a non-functional perfect copy (to the same accuracy as a production Toyota) would cost somewhere around ten million dollars. The engine alone has several hundred parts.
The problem with general aviation is that it's just too small to scale into what is the miracle of mass production... We take for granted that something that would take $10MM to make one of, can be made for $15k each if you make 100,000/year.
That said, I'm sure the paperwork and so on adds a ridiculous amount... I'm not disagreeing with any of that. :)
I certainly agree there are extreme costs to small production runs of parts and that we do take for granted the scale of automotive manufacturing. But, I also know that making 1 is much different than making 1,000 if the right methods are used. With CNC technology and additive manufacturing, the costs of things could reduce.
I’ll take an oil filter as an example. If you go to the auto parts store there are a hundred or more filters, different sizes, brands, “quality levels” etc. What makes our oil filter not just another style on the shelf for the same price?
In the US along there are over 200,000 GA aircraft. If each one changed their filter twice a year that’s 400,000 filters. There is no “scale” difference between 400,000 and any number really.
Prices are due to FAA/PMA certification and product liability. The lawsuits before congress mitigated some of the liability really impacted manufacturing. It costs too much to do new products with all the FAA regs. Ask any FAA/PMA manufacturer.
I don't doubt what your saying, it just seems there could be some common sense injected into aviation. It's not like parts on our airplanes fail less often than car parts, even with FAA/PMA certification.
Same reason why parts for a Mercedes Benz cost 4x’s as much as comparable parts for a Japanese or American built car. The end user is willing to pay that price.
There must be a way to exchange an aviation engine with an automobile engine that would work, even if you had to decertify your plane and make it experimental.
I think someday it might be a necessity!
I plan on buying my first moony what are the most important things I need to look for. I don’t want to spend 100K and found nice once I can fix up for around 20-30K. What’s your thoughts please
Amen
It's crazy, isn't it!!!
Register Experimental to get the best for least for all these parts, and speed mods.
No doubt about that. I wish there was an easy way to make the switch to experimental!
Look into experimental. I love it. There’s no way I’d be able to afford a 150kt, aerobatic, soon to be ifr airplane under 30 years old otherwise. Just the panel in my plane would send me to the poor house if it were for a certified plane, if it’s even available for the airframe.
I couldn't agree more! Sounds like you're an RV guy? I will certainly be going the way of the experimental in the future, but for now this Mooney is my cheapest way to fly (even though I'll still complain about the prices).
@@MyTimeToFly yes sir, started certified in a Cessna then sold for an rv6. Experimental is no excuse to cut corners, but it’s nice when you want a few more options on Maintenance and upgrades
Great way of saying it. It’s not an excuse, just gives you options! I love it.
i can sand blast any spark plug and make it as good as new This is the biggest waste of money i see most people throw away replacing hardly worn or used spark plugs
I think the only way Aviation get cheaper is by much higher demand. Meaning we need a lot more people to have an airplane. Or why do you think you can by spark plugs only 3$ for your car?
It sounds almost like owning a Diesel pickup, and a boat.
Hahaha I must be the craziest man alive, I've got a diesel and a boat too. They all have something in common (old but well taken care of).
@@MyTimeToFly
2003 Cummins
2002 Grady White 330 Express
Also old but well taken care of 🤙
Not to mention.....paid for.
Edit: I wish I could own a plane, I can't afford what I would want, but I'm not scared of getting my PPL
Nice!
2006 LBZ Duramax (310,000)
1993 Four Winns Sundowner 235
1963 Mooney (but it’s on the way out, gotta have some cash)
@@MyTimeToFly
I'd love a Husky, every time I see one I stop and appreciate it.
Mooney is a good bird....sorry yours has to move on, but life demands on nobody's schedule.
Fly, Sail and travel safe!
Capitalism... they charge it because people buy it. I'm sure some of the inflation does go towards certifications and legal donations but I have a hard time believing that it's not mostly corporate greed.
I'm with you on this one.
We need a way to "de-certify" our aircraft and assume liability as owners.
I would sign that piece of paper TOMORROW!
just as in motorcycle industry they sell you specially blended motor oils that they claim is better for your wet clutches.False i have been testing this for over 35 years and notice no difference at all. so buy a quart of automotive oil for 5 bucks a quart? or 10 dollars a quart from the Dealership? Gold Course Industry Same Thing Major Price Gauging cause its a Rich Mans World
lol, your percentage rates are way off. And you are comparing a Honda accord motor to an airplane motor. Not even close. Diesel truck parts are not cheap either. Glad it’s not as expensive as I thought. It’s comparable to buying parts for Ford or Chevy Diesels. Not sure about plane motors. But diesel engines have glow plugs not spark plugs which are much more expensive to replace. I think around $1200
Thank the government for regulating aviation to within an inch of it's life. FAA stands for Federal Antiaviation Administration.
It does feel like that sometimes, although I do know a few good feds!