I'm in the middle of IFR training right now. Instrument training has a reputation for being overwhelming. And from my perspective, I can attest that it has been for me. So anything that can be used to reduce the workload is personally important to me. Based on that here's what my priorities would be: 1) An autopilot. Briefing an approach, programming the GPS, setting radios - everything gets easier if you can just set your airplane to fly itself while you do other things. Trying to do all of those things *AND* fly the airplane is a lot. And it gets overwhelming. I've tried to reduce the workload by flying a lot of VFR practice approaches on my own (no hood). Just so that I'm really familiar with everything I have to do. But an autopilot would really help. Now in your airplane, I've seen you fly hands free a lot. So maybe it's not as big of a deal to you. But I can't really fly my airplane hands free, not unless I put about 160 lbs in the passenger seat. 2) Not just a WAAS GPS, but one of the new Garmins. I have a GPS 175 and I can't believe how much I've fallen in love with that unit since taking instrument training. The touch screen makes programming flight plans so much easier than the 430W devices. On top of that I can also connect my ipad to it via bluetooth to submit flight plans. Again this reduces the pilot's workload. 3) Getting rid of the steam attitude indicator and directional gyro, and replacing with G5 or GI275 or AV30c. This reduces the area that I have to scan while flying the airplane. I personally would rank #1 & #2 pretty close, with #1 edging out the GPS by a little bit. But #3 is a pretty distant 3rd place. I recently did my longest VFR cross country from NC to WI and back. And both ways, clouds over the mountains became the most stressful part each flight. On the way back, it was at night. And after that experience I made this commitment: I will never fly any trip that has a night portion greater than 1 hour until I have my instrument rating. The risk of accidental flight into IMC is so much greater when you can't see the clouds. So, for me and my mission remaining just VFR is not an option that I will consider.
Thank you so much for this amazing comment…your thought process is phenomenal. It also leaves me a little dejected, as we’ve mostly committed to NOT putting an autopilot in this Mooney. It just becomes cost prohibitive so quickly. I do agree however that the autopilot is a very big workload reducer. Best of luck as you finish up that IFR! That’s again for the insight!
As a 31 year owner of the same F model, I think you need to first determine whether you really intend on keeping the plane because it fits your flying needs for the foreseeable future. If the answer is “yes”, then make a laundry list of the “must haves” for upgrades and another list for “nice to have” items. The must haves for my instrument flying was an autopilot and reliable radios. I hand flew mine with steam gauges and without a full functioning autopilot from 1991 until 1998. In 1998 after hand flying IFR for 7 years I stuck an STEC 60-2 in. Really lightened the workload and made IFR flying more manageable doing single pilot IFR. When it became apparent VORs we’re headed towards the trash heap, I finally installed an IFR capable GPS. At the same time glass panels were available and I stuck in an Aspen 2000 system. There are a lot of options out there. Just find one that fits your budget and upgrade. As for your magnetized plane. What gets magnetized is the roll cage. Degaussing will work but you need to address the underlying cause for the magnetism. This is usually a power line for something that is wrapped around or too close to the roll cage. What worked for me was installing a Precision PAI-700 compass. You need to buy the balancing ball set with it. The balancing balls allow you to zero out any magnetism field around the compass. And if you upgrade to something that has a magnetometer in it (like an Aspen or Garmin 275), the “wet compass”, though legally required, will be more of a backup. I have a few videos on my channel that show what I did with my panel and one on how to use the Aspen.
Thank you kindly for the detailed comment, it’s my opinion you are spot on. I will check out the balance balls, we had considered them…but didn’t make the move to purchase yet.
I had the same issue in my Aztec which also uses a steel tubular frame, it took me a little bit to resolve the issue, and as I see it based upon my experience , you have a few options, 1) you can try demagnetizing the airframe, there are companies that rent the equipment to do so, but this can get very expensive very fast. 2) relocate the compass slightly to spot less effected by the magnetic fields. 3) identify the magnetic hot spot(s) and wrap Mu metal around that area to reduce the magnetic effect 4) get a different/better compass. The two choices I see for compasses are the PAI-700 vertical card compass *WITH* the balancing balls, or the SIRS compass, both have a much greater range of correction than the standard airpath compass. Just be careful with the vertical card compass I find that they sometimes have issues, I was able to swing one on 3 or the 4 cardinal headings, it just wouldn't swing completely, the SIRS worked nicely and is preferred compass.
From experience. Getting your IFR ticket is very rewarding and will make you a much better VFR pilot too! By a huge margin! My advice is that you must have a functioning autopilot in your plane. Passing your instrument checkride doesn’t mean you’re IMC ready. Flying under the hood is nothing compared to actual IMC. It will take you some actual IMC time to become proficient in IMC hand-flying. Having an autopilot as a safety net for your first 10 (or so) hours in actual IMC could mean the difference between life and tragic death. In fact, studies have shown that even most experienced and highly rated pilots do get disoriented in actual IMC occasionally. Also, the government is phasing out VORs very rapidly. If you’re planning to fly your plane on IFR plans by relying on VORs, I promise you you’re not going anywhere! Vast majority of VOR stations you see on your sectional map are no longer in use. Although NOTAMS may say X or Y VOR is “Temporarily” out of Service, its not Temporary. In my area we have four VOR stations that have been “Temporarily” unserviceable for about three years. You will need a WAAS gps. And I personally would never fly IMC without a capable functional autopilot ready to take over at a click of a button. Never needed it yet, but the boost of confidence you get by knowing its there could be the difference you need to hand-fly safely in actual IMC. I have two kids whom I want to continue to have a father. not time for being macho or playing dice with my luck. Arrogant pilots don’t get to become old pilots. Wish you best of luck.
Basic Aspen, E5, is less than $5000, you can add modules to do more. Thats less than 2 G5's with required stuff, and an easier (cheaper) installation. Add a Garmin GPS175 and you have WAAS capability. If your legacy NAV/COMs work, leave them in place. You're probably 30 hours for install with that combination, all in at our shop around $13,000. Regarding the compass, has your shop put a calibration unit on? You can correct out some of the magnetic field from the roll cage by doing a full swing. Compass is a required instrument for flight, magnetic direction indicator, so really needs to be corrected. Particularly before you do instrument flight with it.
Thanks for the detail Tom, stay tuned to my next video where I’ll talk about my initial quoted avionics costs…it sounds like you’ll be able to tell me if they’re reasonable or not. We did try to swing the compass, but didn’t get where we needed to be.
G5 HSI with remote magnetometer solves the immediate problem, but trust me you’re not going to want to hand fly in actual IMC. Too many other things to do. A single axis autopilot that can track a heading is a must. The WAAS GPS can come later, plenty of good used 430Ws on used market.
Some thoughts: I’ve had my ‘68 C for 28 years and 3000 hours. I got my IFR 30 years ago in a PA 28 with no autopilot, 1 VOR/ILS and 1 ADF, no area navigation. “ Situational awareness” was everything. I’d say that on - board weather has given the greatest safety advantage over everything else. Even now when I do practice approaches under the hood I do not use autopilot. The only time my autopilot went TU was in real IMC doing an ILS with family on board ( a basic rule in flying is that everything breaks, you just don’t know when.) My Aspen has been great. Synthetic Vision is entertaining, but may be TMI? When the remote transducer was mounted on the cabin roof it went crazy, found out the ferrous coat hanger hook inside was the problem. Based in S Ohio I routinely fly to Detroit, Philly and Ft Worth. Without IFR rating couldn’t do it. Looking back I’ve only had to do a handful of low approaches in real IMC. My hanger neighbor and I trade off being safety pilots to maintain proficiency , not just currency. I have a GNX 480 and an S Tec 50 which will do holds all day by itself. It doesn’t fly the glide slope which I think is the easiest part. Fore Flight is amazing. My friend put in a >$110,000 panel using it to back up his I pad! I’ve resisted buying another plane because it takes a couple of years to learn how rapidly everything is falling apart- in planes, if it’s not ready to break, it’s too heavy. Also, owners may not keep up on maintenance if they’re planning to sell, and just because it looks good does not mean it IS good. Even brand new planes from factory have issues. My plane was built when workers were paid ? $7-8/ hour, compared to $100/ hr cost of employment now. I’m happy and much safer than ever. Owning my own plane makes me fly it and proficiency is everything , and more important than bells and whistles. Aviating, especially IFR flying is a perishable skill.
I am a VFR pilot that fly's a very tech advanced experimental (Two Dynon HDX screens and a two axis Dynon AP...no vacuum system nor round gauges). All I would need to add to my plane is a IFR GPS navigator (like a GPS 175). It is quite a capable airplane. If you mission is IFR then you need an updated IFR GPS as that will give you great capabilities. There is one thing to think about...I have a friend who fly's a V-Tail Bonanza with basic IFR instruments and I have asked him why he hasn't upgraded (He is a recently retired Delta Captain and also Retired Air Force Eagle Driver) and his response was I won't fly single engine IFR. If you lose that engine in or above the clouds it does not matter how tech advanced your cockpit is you are going to have to get it down through those clouds with little to no idea what is below...just some food for thought.
Thanks Scott, that certainly does make you think. Regardless, I'd pursue the rating in a single engine, I definitely couldn't afford the training in a twin!
I have a 1961 Mooney and recently restarted my IFR training. The Apollo GPS in my plane was discontinued years ago so I could not get database updates. I decided to install two G5s along with a GNC-355 and remove the vacuum system. It was around $18k - finished a few months ago. I'm amazed how much easier flying with the GNC-355 is over the old Apollo. I've only had around five lessons with the new system but I'm really liking it. I really wish I had an autopilot but I have spent enough for now. I can see I will want an autopilot if I end up doing a lot of IFR flying.
@@MyTimeToFly I too have dual G5s and the GNC 355. Finished my IFR in September 2022. That along with a LHS (Landing Height System) in my 66 M20C and she is now a great platform. AP is later ;o)
I’d invest in your current plane. A few reasons, first you know the aircraft, it’s history, all the servicing etc etc. you sell and buy another aircraft you, you are inheriting an aircraft you don’t know, and you will have problems come up that have nothing to do with the IFR fitout, just by the mere fact you are buying someone else aircraft. Secondly, selling and buying another aircraft is costly, you will spend money throughout the transaction. Thirdly, upgrading a classic Mooney, will pay didvidends when you sell, because you’ve ticked all the boxes for the next owner. And you get to enjoy your aircraft in another way. Maybe this helps, I hope it does
As a fellow Mooney owner (82 J) I'd hate to see you get rid of the Mooney. I'm by no means up to date with all the options currently available with new electronics but I think you could incrementally upgrade you electronics over the next 5 years or so and get where you want to be. You certainly have a solid platform to start with with the Mooney. Think of it this way, are you spending money to upgrade to suit you, or worrying about what someone thinks its worth? Kinda like a house, if you plan to live in it for a long time you spend on things you want, if you're gonna flip it, different story. I've invested probably 2 or 3 times in Avionics for my Mooney than I paid for it, and what it's worth, but I don't regret a single $ of it.
Don’t fly IFR without autopilot. It’s like cycling with no hands. It works most of the time but when it doesn’t ouch! You can always hand fly but it keeps you out of many dangers including busting altitudes. Be safe, get the autopilot.
On my M20B, over on the other side of the state, I'm going the route of two G5s (GMU11 in the right wing and GADD29) and a non-WAAS 430. I have a wing leveler on board and am really curious if it will work when it has something to connect to (for a heading). I too would love a three axis autopilot for doing IFR, alas my hours of hand flying VFR will have to do.
What about adding a third partner to the ownership which will obviously reduce the financial input for all and maybe allow you to do a descent avionics upgrade. Don't know if selling will be a good idea as you may end up with a plane with unforeseen issues. Better the devil you know as they say. That"s my opinion but in the end you will do whats right for you and your partner. Will be interested to know the plan. Thanks for posting
Adding a partner is certainly and option, and likely the easiest overall. I agree, it would be risky to move to a new airplane which we know nothing about. And, it’s not really the right market to “upgrade” with prices so high.
Same issue here with a '74 M20E and a vertical compass and a 530w/430w. Just passed my IFR checkride with it. We decided to upgrade our panel to G3x + 750, definitely not the cheapest optionbut Mooney are such great flying machine, it will instill a new life into the old bird. I would get a 530w or 430w and focus on my IFR training if I was in your shoes. Good luck
@@MyTimeToFly no more than 180deg out on a good day. When we were planning the panel layout options, the company advised against a panel embedded compass and recommended a dash one "that will likely we off too" because of the Mooney structure. So we gave up, between cellphones, iPad and watches, we carry at all times 5 gps and 2 radio nav systems.
Why not take on a partner? The 1/3 share would probably be close to the amount required to modernize your panel. As I recall, you bought the plane cash. 3 partners seems manageable.
I have a '65C, also with the KLN94 and everything else 'steam'. I fly IFR in my Mooney, but I'm also considering an Aspen. My situation when I got my IFR was we had a 172 with all old gauges. It was technically an IFR plane and legal. The best part of training in a basic IFR plane is that your checkride will be based on the plane you are flying. In other words, no autopilot to mess with, a basic model GPS to manipulate and relatively simple approaches to master. For me, learning more advanced systems AFTER I was IFR rated was more simple. It gave me good IFR training using basic equipment. Granted, with basic IFR equipment my personal minimums are above what someone with the full GFC500, G3x etc might have, but frankly when weather gets that low, I'm not sure I want to be in a single engine plane anyway. Although it would be very cool to have all the bells and whistles, and arguably safer. My question becomes "how would that change my personal minimums? And if it does, is that worth the investment?" If I was again in your situation, because of the compass (same issue in mine), I'd add either G5 or Aspen and remote magnatometer. KISS - keep it simple, get the rating, then determine what you need to fly safely in whatever plane meets your mission and set personal minimums. You will really be surprised by how much your skills improve and your confidence increases with the instrument rating. Side note - the autopilot is a game changer when flying IFR. We have a STEC-30 w/alt hold and it reduces workload remarkably. While it doesn't do the 'work' for you like the GFC500, it certainly helps with task saturation. While training and getting rated though, the hand flying without autopilot is a good skill to have in your toolbox. Thanks for the videos - I like watching. I'm retired ATC and your radio skills are great for a VFR pilot. That alone will help you a great deal in your instrument training. I did my first on CZcams this year when I went to OSH czcams.com/video/Hb9oh48qFuU/video.html
Thanks for the detailed comment- you mentioned that you have a similar compass issue. How did you ultimately address the problem? Remote mounted magnetometer?
@@wesnoble510 we did install the two "cue balls" on each side, not sure what they're called. I'm sure somebody can tell you that. It helps to reduce the magnetization. Then an A&P did a compass swing and it got IFR certified. That was the jest of my opinion, if your plane can get IFR certified with the current equipment, I'd train in that.
Just $0.02. I believe you will spend more on upgrading your current situation than to find something that fits the IFR needs. The Return On Investment will not cover this. The Useful Load of the Mooney should also be something to consider at this time. My vote is find another Aircraft that fits your new mission. Again just my $0.02. Easy to spend some else’s $$$.
You need a degausser to demagnetize the steel roll cage.A degausser is a coil that produces a magnetic field that you can use to demagnetize the roll cage frame. They were once very common to anyone who worked on conventional televisions. You should still be able to find one or the instructions to make one on the internet. One word of caution, remove the compass from the airplane before using the degaussing coil or you could damage it.
Thanks Jim. We've attempted degaussing the airframe with 2 different coils at this point. We have Gauss reading as low as 1-3 in some areas and as high as 15 in others. Our avionics guy believes the level is so high, it must have been struck by lightning. Not sure if I buy into that yet or not.
I decided to stay VFR for the foreseeable future although I've had some upset/disorientation training. IFR can be dangerous if you don't use it often, proficiency is key. My hangar neighbor feels the same way, flies 2-400 hours a year VFR, has for 40 years.
I agree it can be practical to stay VFR, there are just a lot of days in Michigan where an IFR ticket could allow you to flu. Maybe I should just move!
@@MyTimeToFly I’m in the Pacific NW, just north of Portland. This last winter/spring was never ending and I think we went 3 months without a flyable day. I’m sure we could have gotten out IFR but a lot times it just isn’t safe.
I haven't heard of an aircraft getting magnetized enough to really affect the compass. That's pretty wild. I hope you get it figured out. I'd take a hard look at whether this is everyone's forever plane. If it's not then it doesn't make sense to do upgrades. I'd upgrade your GPS, get the magnetometer and fix the compass at a minimum if you keep the plane. I have a pretty bare bones 64C and I'm not so sure this is my forever plane so I haven't performed any panel upgrades. Just doesn't make since with how much it costs.
I have something else that you should consider. As you know it's not just our government that is changing, but our money system is changing, and not just ours but the world's. With that said this is not the time to be making any investments, especially in such an older plane. I don't mean to be poo poo, but any money that you put into this plane upgrading electronics you will never get back out. So for now I would recommend leaving it alone and waiting to see how the world finances and our government system changes over the next 6 months to a year. And during that time keep your eye open up for some good used equipment that you can get cheaply, cuz upgrading to some nice g5s and an older plane like that is easy. Plus wouldn't it be awesome if you just won the lottery, and decided to just go with it all brand new panel, new dash ball Garmin, which means you probably have to rewire the entire plane in the process, so we're probably talking about 120,000 added to the current price of the plane, so I recommend just leaving alone for now
My wife and I are in the same boat with our 63c. For us we have decided that we are going to keep the plane long enough to justify the loss of value in upgrading. We have quotes for the options your discussing if you would like to talk through them.
im a new low time "pilot" so take what i say with a grain of salt. that said, i wouldnt sell the plane because this is a reliable plane you know and bringing in others would complicate things having too many hands in the kitchen so to speak,,plus uying another plane, to me at least, could be getting another persons headache. youve gone through making this one reliable etc could cost you three times as much next plane than just upgrading avionics....id say get one g1000 for pic seat to start, learn it get checked out on it and do some trips vfr then go into instrument training..and im sure you can add more things like auto pilot later on... remember its not a race its a journey
@@MyTimeToFly for sure! didnt mean it as a bad thing but im only 4 hours in so took a "common sense type of approach. at least what i would do. theres just those variables that if you got a new plane whos to say it wouldnt need a brand new engine? etc, now of course i know you wouldnt buy a plane without a PBI, but stil you just never know. that said, if the one you have is wearing down and you and your partner could swing something newer or less time with an annual thats just been done etc. id say have a sit down with your partner, lay out realistic expenses,get quotes on an "avionics upgrade installed" deal and compare that to what planes are out there. mooneys are great and is my favorite GA plane. another insight to look at is with upgrades, what could you possibly sell your guys mooney for down the line? so if you upgraded to all glass avionics, AP, maybe garmin smart glide technology etc, could you maybe sell it then for 80k to 100k? and use the to upgrade down the road to something bigger faster than what the mooney is? many ways to skin the cat all depends what will work for the both of you
Something to consider is that remote mount or piano mount magnetometer style instruments are also sensitive to magnetism there are specific mounting locations and guidelines that people like garmin put out put out to isolate those units from magnetism so if you're already having a magnetism problem you will likely have issues with a install of anything along those lines
I will certainly pay attention to that. Our thought is, the steel roll cage doesn’t go out into the wings, so we should be able to locate a magnetometer out there. I’ll have to do some more reading.
@@MyTimeToFly Reach out to the CZcams or build fly go build a fly go he did some testing per the garmin manual for locations on stations on the magnetometer placement on an RV10 that he is building he probably has the probably has a lot of good insight for you for that as while there's a way to test and verify that it work with garmin
I know this is a little late but have you updated your avionics yet? I have a Mooney 62 M20C that is a pretty good IFR platform. Could send some pics if you can give me a address to send them to. I’ve actually been to Sparta and I fly out of KIMT. I cross the the Lake a lot and I am also a CFII . Just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in. Thx
Second the GPS175...and its a pretty economical upgrade. If you are going to sell and buy a plane, probably going to pay top dollar for something else in this market.
No doubt about overpaying in the market today, just like houses...it's a good time to downgrade but not upgrade. I do think the cost of something like a GPS 175 would be worth it...it adds a lot of value.
I am slowly attempting to study for my IFR written. I put a GNC 355 in my Mooney M20G with a GI275. This cost me about $10k installed. I would love to get ready of my steam gauges and out two more GI275’s in with an autopilot but that won’t be for another year or two at the earliest.
I feel where you're at, I'm almost at the same point. I still have all steam gauges, my autopilot is not reliable so I'm looking at putting 2 G5s and a G500 AP. But I'm wondering if it's really worth it. It's a lot of money to fly few IFR hours. For now I'm doing the same as you, I'm doing my IFR rating manually and we'll see after. In your case, did you ask somebody if using a G5 would solve the problem? I don't know much about this, but won't it be affected by the roll cage as well? Just to keep your plane flying, maybe consider the uavionix alternate to the G5, it seems to be cheaper. I had a quote recently for 6k installed (that's with attitude + HI). My advice to you is the same as I'm doing. Fix the problem right now with G5-like instrument (I'm thinking that if you sell the plane it will have a better value than selling with a compass problem), dontour rating in it and once you're IFR rated, figure out if the Mooney is still ideal for your mission.
Thanks for all the great thoughts! The reason a G5 or similar can hypothetically work is because of the remote mounted magnetometer (or so I'm told). We have and will continue to consider the Uavionix version, but as of now I don't believe it has the magnetometer available. Regardless, I do intend to keep the Mooney flying. It has to stay in the air!
@@MyTimeToFly I understand, let's go for it. The G5 creates a good base further down the road if you want to couple it with a 430W or a G500. As to the point that any money you put into upgrade you will lose on the resale value, I would say owning an airplane is not the most sound financial decision to start with. In my case I bought a plane with good bones that I will be able to grow into for many years to come, even if I have to invest in some costly upgrade.
We've attempted degaussing multiple times now, with little success. Do you know anybody that has it down to a science? I'd fly the airplane to them tomorrow if they can fix it.
I'm in the middle of IFR training right now. Instrument training has a reputation for being overwhelming. And from my perspective, I can attest that it has been for me. So anything that can be used to reduce the workload is personally important to me.
Based on that here's what my priorities would be:
1) An autopilot. Briefing an approach, programming the GPS, setting radios - everything gets easier if you can just set your airplane to fly itself while you do other things. Trying to do all of those things *AND* fly the airplane is a lot. And it gets overwhelming. I've tried to reduce the workload by flying a lot of VFR practice approaches on my own (no hood). Just so that I'm really familiar with everything I have to do. But an autopilot would really help. Now in your airplane, I've seen you fly hands free a lot. So maybe it's not as big of a deal to you. But I can't really fly my airplane hands free, not unless I put about 160 lbs in the passenger seat.
2) Not just a WAAS GPS, but one of the new Garmins. I have a GPS 175 and I can't believe how much I've fallen in love with that unit since taking instrument training. The touch screen makes programming flight plans so much easier than the 430W devices. On top of that I can also connect my ipad to it via bluetooth to submit flight plans. Again this reduces the pilot's workload.
3) Getting rid of the steam attitude indicator and directional gyro, and replacing with G5 or GI275 or AV30c. This reduces the area that I have to scan while flying the airplane.
I personally would rank #1 & #2 pretty close, with #1 edging out the GPS by a little bit. But #3 is a pretty distant 3rd place.
I recently did my longest VFR cross country from NC to WI and back. And both ways, clouds over the mountains became the most stressful part each flight. On the way back, it was at night. And after that experience I made this commitment: I will never fly any trip that has a night portion greater than 1 hour until I have my instrument rating. The risk of accidental flight into IMC is so much greater when you can't see the clouds. So, for me and my mission remaining just VFR is not an option that I will consider.
Thank you so much for this amazing comment…your thought process is phenomenal. It also leaves me a little dejected, as we’ve mostly committed to NOT putting an autopilot in this Mooney. It just becomes cost prohibitive so quickly. I do agree however that the autopilot is a very big workload reducer.
Best of luck as you finish up that IFR! That’s again for the insight!
Sorry, man! Didn't mean to make you feel dejected.
No problem at all. I pinned your comment, I hope everybody reads it!
As a 31 year owner of the same F model, I think you need to first determine whether you really intend on keeping the plane because it fits your flying needs for the foreseeable future. If the answer is “yes”, then make a laundry list of the “must haves” for upgrades and another list for “nice to have” items. The must haves for my instrument flying was an autopilot and reliable radios.
I hand flew mine with steam gauges and without a full functioning autopilot from 1991 until 1998. In 1998 after hand flying IFR for 7 years I stuck an STEC 60-2 in. Really lightened the workload and made IFR flying more manageable doing single pilot IFR.
When it became apparent VORs we’re headed towards the trash heap, I finally installed an IFR capable GPS. At the same time glass panels were available and I stuck in an Aspen 2000 system. There are a lot of options out there. Just find one that fits your budget and upgrade.
As for your magnetized plane. What gets magnetized is the roll cage. Degaussing will work but you need to address the underlying cause for the magnetism. This is usually a power line for something that is wrapped around or too close to the roll cage. What worked for me was installing a Precision PAI-700 compass. You need to buy the balancing ball set with it. The balancing balls allow you to zero out any magnetism field around the compass. And if you upgrade to something that has a magnetometer in it (like an Aspen or Garmin 275), the “wet compass”, though legally required, will be more of a backup.
I have a few videos on my channel that show what I did with my panel and one on how to use the Aspen.
Thank you kindly for the detailed comment, it’s my opinion you are spot on. I will check out the balance balls, we had considered them…but didn’t make the move to purchase yet.
I had the same issue in my Aztec which also uses a steel tubular frame, it took me a little bit to resolve the issue, and as I see it based upon my experience , you have a few options, 1) you can try demagnetizing the airframe, there are companies that rent the equipment to do so, but this can get very expensive very fast. 2) relocate the compass slightly to spot less effected by the magnetic fields. 3) identify the magnetic hot spot(s) and wrap Mu metal around that area to reduce the magnetic effect 4) get a different/better compass. The two choices I see for compasses are the PAI-700 vertical card compass *WITH* the balancing balls, or the SIRS compass, both have a much greater range of correction than the standard airpath compass. Just be careful with the vertical card compass I find that they sometimes have issues, I was able to swing one on 3 or the 4 cardinal headings, it just wouldn't swing completely, the SIRS worked nicely and is preferred compass.
Thank you kindly!
From experience. Getting your IFR ticket is very rewarding and will make you a much better VFR pilot too! By a huge margin!
My advice is that you must have a functioning autopilot in your plane. Passing your instrument checkride doesn’t mean you’re IMC ready. Flying under the hood is nothing compared to actual IMC. It will take you some actual IMC time to become proficient in IMC hand-flying. Having an autopilot as a safety net for your first 10 (or so) hours in actual IMC could mean the difference between life and tragic death. In fact, studies have shown that even most experienced and highly rated pilots do get disoriented in actual IMC occasionally.
Also, the government is phasing out VORs very rapidly. If you’re planning to fly your plane on IFR plans by relying on VORs, I promise you you’re not going anywhere! Vast majority of VOR stations you see on your sectional map are no longer in use. Although NOTAMS may say X or Y VOR is “Temporarily” out of Service, its not Temporary. In my area we have four VOR stations that have been “Temporarily” unserviceable for about three years.
You will need a WAAS gps. And I personally would never fly IMC without a capable functional autopilot ready to take over at a click of a button. Never needed it yet, but the boost of confidence you get by knowing its there could be the difference you need to hand-fly safely in actual IMC. I have two kids whom I want to continue to have a father. not time for being macho or playing dice with my luck. Arrogant pilots don’t get to become old pilots.
Wish you best of luck.
Thank you for the excellent thoughts, I agree that an autopilot is necessary if you are planning to fly in IMC. The workload reduction is incredible.
I have a 63c with a non WAAS 300xL and a aspen. The aspen makes it very nice for IFR.
Thanks for the recommendation, we are definitely considering the Aspen.
Basic Aspen, E5, is less than $5000, you can add modules to do more. Thats less than 2 G5's with required stuff, and an easier (cheaper) installation. Add a Garmin GPS175 and you have WAAS capability. If your legacy NAV/COMs work, leave them in place. You're probably 30 hours for install with that combination, all in at our shop around $13,000.
Regarding the compass, has your shop put a calibration unit on? You can correct out some of the magnetic field from the roll cage by doing a full swing. Compass is a required instrument for flight, magnetic direction indicator, so really needs to be corrected. Particularly before you do instrument flight with it.
Thanks for the detail Tom, stay tuned to my next video where I’ll talk about my initial quoted avionics costs…it sounds like you’ll be able to tell me if they’re reasonable or not.
We did try to swing the compass, but didn’t get where we needed to be.
I got my IFR rating with an Aspen in front of me. I recommend it
Roger that, thanks Jim!
G5 HSI with remote magnetometer solves the immediate problem, but trust me you’re not going to want to hand fly in actual IMC. Too many other things to do. A single axis autopilot that can track a heading is a must. The WAAS GPS can come later, plenty of good used 430Ws on used market.
It seems this is wise advise!
Some thoughts: I’ve had my ‘68 C for 28 years and 3000 hours. I got my IFR 30 years ago in a PA 28 with no autopilot, 1 VOR/ILS and 1 ADF, no area navigation. “ Situational awareness” was everything. I’d say that on - board weather has given the greatest safety advantage over everything else. Even now when I do practice approaches under the hood I do not use autopilot. The only time my autopilot went TU was in real IMC doing an ILS with family on board ( a basic rule in flying is that everything breaks, you just don’t know when.) My Aspen has been great. Synthetic Vision is entertaining, but may be TMI? When the remote transducer was mounted on the cabin roof it went crazy, found out the ferrous coat hanger hook inside was the problem. Based in S Ohio I routinely fly to Detroit, Philly and Ft Worth. Without IFR rating couldn’t do it. Looking back I’ve only had to do a handful of low approaches in real IMC. My hanger neighbor and I trade off being safety pilots to maintain proficiency , not just currency. I have a GNX 480 and an S Tec 50 which will do holds all day by itself. It doesn’t fly the glide slope which I think is the easiest part. Fore Flight is amazing. My friend put in a >$110,000 panel using it to back up his I pad! I’ve resisted buying another plane because it takes a couple of years to learn how rapidly everything is falling apart- in planes, if it’s not ready to break, it’s too heavy. Also, owners may not keep up on maintenance if they’re planning to sell, and just because it looks good does not mean it IS good. Even brand new planes from factory have issues. My plane was built when workers were paid ? $7-8/ hour, compared to $100/ hr cost of employment now. I’m happy and much safer than ever. Owning my own plane makes me fly it and proficiency is everything , and more important than bells and whistles. Aviating, especially IFR flying is a perishable skill.
What a great story, and a tremendous relationship with your airplane. Thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge!
I am a VFR pilot that fly's a very tech advanced experimental (Two Dynon HDX screens and a two axis Dynon AP...no vacuum system nor round gauges). All I would need to add to my plane is a IFR GPS navigator (like a GPS 175). It is quite a capable airplane. If you mission is IFR then you need an updated IFR GPS as that will give you great capabilities. There is one thing to think about...I have a friend who fly's a V-Tail Bonanza with basic IFR instruments and I have asked him why he hasn't upgraded (He is a recently retired Delta Captain and also Retired Air Force Eagle Driver) and his response was I won't fly single engine IFR. If you lose that engine in or above the clouds it does not matter how tech advanced your cockpit is you are going to have to get it down through those clouds with little to no idea what is below...just some food for thought.
Thanks Scott, that certainly does make you think. Regardless, I'd pursue the rating in a single engine, I definitely couldn't afford the training in a twin!
Just need to get IFR and up into that IMC and get it hit by lightning again to undo the last strike :D
Hahaha, sounds like a good strategy.
I have a 1961 Mooney and recently restarted my IFR training. The Apollo GPS in my plane was discontinued years ago so I could not get database updates. I decided to install two G5s along with a GNC-355 and remove the vacuum system. It was around $18k - finished a few months ago. I'm amazed how much easier flying with the GNC-355 is over the old Apollo. I've only had around five lessons with the new system but I'm really liking it. I really wish I had an autopilot but I have spent enough for now. I can see I will want an autopilot if I end up doing a lot of IFR flying.
Very cool, thanks for the recommendation!
@@MyTimeToFly I too have dual G5s and the GNC 355. Finished my IFR in September 2022. That along with a LHS (Landing Height System) in my 66 M20C and she is now a great platform. AP is later ;o)
I love it, glad to hear it’s working well for you!
I’ll do just that!
I’d invest in your current plane. A few reasons, first you know the aircraft, it’s history, all the servicing etc etc. you sell and buy another aircraft you, you are inheriting an aircraft you don’t know, and you will have problems come up that have nothing to do with the IFR fitout, just by the mere fact you are buying someone else aircraft. Secondly, selling and buying another aircraft is costly, you will spend money throughout the transaction. Thirdly, upgrading a classic Mooney, will pay didvidends when you sell, because you’ve ticked all the boxes for the next owner. And you get to enjoy your aircraft in another way. Maybe this helps, I hope it does
It sure does help Tim, thank you for the detailed thoughts!
As a fellow Mooney owner (82 J) I'd hate to see you get rid of the Mooney. I'm by no means up to date with all the options currently available with new electronics but I think you could incrementally upgrade you electronics over the next 5 years or so and get where you want to be. You certainly have a solid platform to start with with the Mooney. Think of it this way, are you spending money to upgrade to suit you, or worrying about what someone thinks its worth? Kinda like a house, if you plan to live in it for a long time you spend on things you want, if you're gonna flip it, different story. I've invested probably 2 or 3 times in Avionics for my Mooney than I paid for it, and what it's worth, but I don't regret a single $ of it.
Thanks man, sound advice. I do love the Mooney, and don’t plan for it to go anywhere, anytime soon!
Don’t fly IFR without autopilot. It’s like cycling with no hands. It works most of the time but when it doesn’t ouch! You can always hand fly but it keeps you out of many dangers including busting altitudes. Be safe, get the autopilot.
Roger that, I like the analogy.
On my M20B, over on the other side of the state, I'm going the route of two G5s (GMU11 in the right wing and GADD29) and a non-WAAS 430. I have a wing leveler on board and am really curious if it will work when it has something to connect to (for a heading).
I too would love a three axis autopilot for doing IFR, alas my hours of hand flying VFR will have to do.
Thanks for the details Joe, I’m sure you’ll be very happy with the setup.
What about adding a third partner to the ownership which will obviously reduce the financial input for all and maybe allow you to do a descent avionics upgrade. Don't know if selling will be a good idea as you may end up with a plane with unforeseen issues. Better the devil you know as they say. That"s my opinion but in the end you will do whats right for you and your partner. Will be interested to know the plan. Thanks for posting
Adding a partner is certainly and option, and likely the easiest overall. I agree, it would be risky to move to a new airplane which we know nothing about. And, it’s not really the right market to “upgrade” with prices so high.
Same issue here with a '74 M20E and a vertical compass and a 530w/430w. Just passed my IFR checkride with it. We decided to upgrade our panel to G3x + 750, definitely not the cheapest optionbut Mooney are such great flying machine, it will instill a new life into the old bird. I would get a 530w or 430w and focus on my IFR training if I was in your shoes. Good luck
Thanks Pierre! How far off is your mag compass?
@@MyTimeToFly no more than 180deg out on a good day. When we were planning the panel layout options, the company advised against a panel embedded compass and recommended a dash one "that will likely we off too" because of the Mooney structure. So we gave up, between cellphones, iPad and watches, we carry at all times 5 gps and 2 radio nav systems.
I love the common sense approach!
Why not take on a partner? The 1/3 share would probably be close to the amount required to modernize your panel. As I recall, you bought the plane cash. 3 partners seems manageable.
I definitely agree a 3rd partner is a good option!
I have a '65C, also with the KLN94 and everything else 'steam'. I fly IFR in my Mooney, but I'm also considering an Aspen. My situation when I got my IFR was we had a 172 with all old gauges. It was technically an IFR plane and legal. The best part of training in a basic IFR plane is that your checkride will be based on the plane you are flying. In other words, no autopilot to mess with, a basic model GPS to manipulate and relatively simple approaches to master. For me, learning more advanced systems AFTER I was IFR rated was more simple. It gave me good IFR training using basic equipment. Granted, with basic IFR equipment my personal minimums are above what someone with the full GFC500, G3x etc might have, but frankly when weather gets that low, I'm not sure I want to be in a single engine plane anyway. Although it would be very cool to have all the bells and whistles, and arguably safer. My question becomes "how would that change my personal minimums? And if it does, is that worth the investment?" If I was again in your situation, because of the compass (same issue in mine), I'd add either G5 or Aspen and remote magnatometer. KISS - keep it simple, get the rating, then determine what you need to fly safely in whatever plane meets your mission and set personal minimums. You will really be surprised by how much your skills improve and your confidence increases with the instrument rating.
Side note - the autopilot is a game changer when flying IFR. We have a STEC-30 w/alt hold and it reduces workload remarkably. While it doesn't do the 'work' for you like the GFC500, it certainly helps with task saturation. While training and getting rated though, the hand flying without autopilot is a good skill to have in your toolbox.
Thanks for the videos - I like watching. I'm retired ATC and your radio skills are great for a VFR pilot. That alone will help you a great deal in your instrument training. I did my first on CZcams this year when I went to OSH czcams.com/video/Hb9oh48qFuU/video.html
Thanks for the detailed comment- you mentioned that you have a similar compass issue. How did you ultimately address the problem? Remote mounted magnetometer?
@@wesnoble510 lol. We adapt and overcome! It's close on the ground (almost always). I keep the DG set to the GPS track in flight.
@@flyingATC I have been doing the same but was hoping for a real solution haha
@@wesnoble510 we did install the two "cue balls" on each side, not sure what they're called. I'm sure somebody can tell you that. It helps to reduce the magnetization. Then an A&P did a compass swing and it got IFR certified. That was the jest of my opinion, if your plane can get IFR certified with the current equipment, I'd train in that.
@@flyingATC Roger- “balance balls” on order
Just $0.02.
I believe you will spend more on upgrading your current situation than to find something that fits the IFR needs.
The Return On Investment will not cover this.
The Useful Load of the Mooney should also be something to consider at this time.
My vote is find another Aircraft that fits your new mission.
Again just my $0.02. Easy to spend some else’s $$$.
Thanks Joe, I totally understand your perspective.
You need a degausser to demagnetize the steel roll cage.A degausser is a coil that produces a magnetic field that you can use to demagnetize the roll cage frame. They were once very common to anyone who worked on conventional televisions. You should still be able to find one or the instructions to make one on the internet. One word of caution, remove the compass from the airplane before using the degaussing coil or you could damage it.
Thanks Jim. We've attempted degaussing the airframe with 2 different coils at this point. We have Gauss reading as low as 1-3 in some areas and as high as 15 in others. Our avionics guy believes the level is so high, it must have been struck by lightning. Not sure if I buy into that yet or not.
I decided to stay VFR for the foreseeable future although I've had some upset/disorientation training. IFR can be dangerous if you don't use it often, proficiency is key. My hangar neighbor feels the same way, flies 2-400 hours a year VFR, has for 40 years.
I agree it can be practical to stay VFR, there are just a lot of days in Michigan where an IFR ticket could allow you to flu. Maybe I should just move!
@@MyTimeToFly I’m in the Pacific NW, just north of Portland. This last winter/spring was never ending and I think we went 3 months without a flyable day. I’m sure we could have gotten out IFR but a lot times it just isn’t safe.
I haven't heard of an aircraft getting magnetized enough to really affect the compass. That's pretty wild. I hope you get it figured out. I'd take a hard look at whether this is everyone's forever plane. If it's not then it doesn't make sense to do upgrades. I'd upgrade your GPS, get the magnetometer and fix the compass at a minimum if you keep the plane. I have a pretty bare bones 64C and I'm not so sure this is my forever plane so I haven't performed any panel upgrades. Just doesn't make since with how much it costs.
I agree it’s hard to know if this plane is forever, but it’s clear it will be here for the next few years.
I have something else that you should consider. As you know it's not just our government that is changing, but our money system is changing, and not just ours but the world's. With that said this is not the time to be making any investments, especially in such an older plane. I don't mean to be poo poo, but any money that you put into this plane upgrading electronics you will never get back out. So for now I would recommend leaving it alone and waiting to see how the world finances and our government system changes over the next 6 months to a year. And during that time keep your eye open up for some good used equipment that you can get cheaply, cuz upgrading to some nice g5s and an older plane like that is easy. Plus wouldn't it be awesome if you just won the lottery, and decided to just go with it all brand new panel, new dash ball Garmin, which means you probably have to rewire the entire plane in the process, so we're probably talking about 120,000 added to the current price of the plane, so I recommend just leaving alone for now
🤣middle class advice right here.
Thanks for the perspective. I guess it boils down to the question, am I trying to invest in the airplane for added value, or only added capability.
Nice!
My wife and I are in the same boat with our 63c. For us we have decided that we are going to keep the plane long enough to justify the loss of value in upgrading. We have quotes for the options your discussing if you would like to talk through them.
I would love to learn more about your experience and quotes. What's the best way to connect?
im a new low time "pilot" so take what i say with a grain of salt. that said, i wouldnt sell the plane because this is a reliable plane you know and bringing in others would complicate things having too many hands in the kitchen so to speak,,plus uying another plane, to me at least, could be getting another persons headache. youve gone through making this one reliable etc could cost you three times as much next plane than just upgrading avionics....id say get one g1000 for pic seat to start, learn it get checked out on it and do some trips vfr then go into instrument training..and im sure you can add more things like auto pilot later on... remember its not a race its a journey
I appreciate your thoughts, and I tend to agree. Also, “low time” doesn’t mean bad ideas…I definitely appreciate your input!
@@MyTimeToFly for sure! didnt mean it as a bad thing but im only 4 hours in so took a "common sense type of approach. at least what i would do. theres just those variables that if you got a new plane whos to say it wouldnt need a brand new engine? etc, now of course i know you wouldnt buy a plane without a PBI, but stil you just never know. that said, if the one you have is wearing down and you and your partner could swing something newer or less time with an annual thats just been done etc. id say have a sit down with your partner, lay out realistic expenses,get quotes on an "avionics upgrade installed" deal and compare that to what planes are out there. mooneys are great and is my favorite GA plane. another insight to look at is with upgrades, what could you possibly sell your guys mooney for down the line? so if you upgraded to all glass avionics, AP, maybe garmin smart glide technology etc, could you maybe sell it then for 80k to 100k? and use the to upgrade down the road to something bigger faster than what the mooney is? many ways to skin the cat all depends what will work for the both of you
All good man, thanks for all of the thoughts!
If you love the plane, keep it and spend the money to upgrade and get what you need. I know it's expensive but you can always make more.
Very true...make more to spend more! Story of my life!
Something to consider is that remote mount or piano mount magnetometer style instruments are also sensitive to magnetism there are specific mounting locations and guidelines that people like garmin put out put out to isolate those units from magnetism so if you're already having a magnetism problem you will likely have issues with a install of anything along those lines
I will certainly pay attention to that. Our thought is, the steel roll cage doesn’t go out into the wings, so we should be able to locate a magnetometer out there. I’ll have to do some more reading.
@@MyTimeToFly Reach out to the CZcams or build fly go build a fly go he did some testing per the garmin manual for locations on stations on the magnetometer placement on an RV10 that he is building he probably has the probably has a lot of good insight for you for that as while there's a way to test and verify that it work with garmin
Build fly go
Thanks again
I know this is a little late but have you updated your avionics yet? I have a Mooney 62 M20C that is a pretty good IFR platform. Could send some pics if you can give me a address to send them to. I’ve actually been to Sparta and I fly out of KIMT. I cross the the Lake a lot and I am also a CFII . Just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in. Thx
I'm very late here, but no, we haven't done any updates yet. Too cost prohibitive.
Degauss the whole plane fuselage. Large coil of wire will do it.
I would certainly give it a try, if I knew somebody with the capability.
No idea on the magnetization issue, but I would probably be thinking along the lines of your third option going forward if it was my decision.
Thanks so much CK! I've developed a strong dislike for magnetization right about now!
Second the GPS175...and its a pretty economical upgrade. If you are going to sell and buy a plane, probably going to pay top dollar for something else in this market.
No doubt about overpaying in the market today, just like houses...it's a good time to downgrade but not upgrade. I do think the cost of something like a GPS 175 would be worth it...it adds a lot of value.
I am slowly attempting to study for my IFR written. I put a GNC 355 in my Mooney M20G with a GI275. This cost me about $10k installed. I would love to get ready of my steam gauges and out two more GI275’s in with an autopilot but that won’t be for another year or two at the earliest.
Sounds like a great upgrade so far…and a good plan for the future!
By Comanche 250
They are awesome planes!
I feel where you're at, I'm almost at the same point. I still have all steam gauges, my autopilot is not reliable so I'm looking at putting 2 G5s and a G500 AP. But I'm wondering if it's really worth it. It's a lot of money to fly few IFR hours. For now I'm doing the same as you, I'm doing my IFR rating manually and we'll see after.
In your case, did you ask somebody if using a G5 would solve the problem? I don't know much about this, but won't it be affected by the roll cage as well?
Just to keep your plane flying, maybe consider the uavionix alternate to the G5, it seems to be cheaper. I had a quote recently for 6k installed (that's with attitude + HI).
My advice to you is the same as I'm doing. Fix the problem right now with G5-like instrument (I'm thinking that if you sell the plane it will have a better value than selling with a compass problem), dontour rating in it and once you're IFR rated, figure out if the Mooney is still ideal for your mission.
Thanks for all the great thoughts! The reason a G5 or similar can hypothetically work is because of the remote mounted magnetometer (or so I'm told). We have and will continue to consider the Uavionix version, but as of now I don't believe it has the magnetometer available.
Regardless, I do intend to keep the Mooney flying. It has to stay in the air!
@@MyTimeToFly I understand, let's go for it. The G5 creates a good base further down the road if you want to couple it with a 430W or a G500.
As to the point that any money you put into upgrade you will lose on the resale value, I would say owning an airplane is not the most sound financial decision to start with. In my case I bought a plane with good bones that I will be able to grow into for many years to come, even if I have to invest in some costly upgrade.
I appreciate the perspective, and do agree that costs like this should not be unexpected when owning an airplane.
You could just pay like $5,000 to degas it, degaussing should remove all fields from it.
If you know the right guy, send me his info please.
Mag compasses are still required equipment…
Still used in IFR training…
Get degaussed, move on…
- a -
We've attempted degaussing multiple times now, with little success. Do you know anybody that has it down to a science? I'd fly the airplane to them tomorrow if they can fix it.
Advice Don't have a partner.
It's been a good experience for me, but it sounds like that isn't the case for you?