TRIEBFLUGEL: The Craziest VTOL Design They Never Made... BUT I DID!
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- Welcome to another episode of Trailmakers! Today I am attempting to recreate the Focke-Wulf Triebflugel, a conceptual wingless VTOL aircraft designed in 1944 Germany during WW2, but never built. The concept is probably one of the crazier designs I've seen for a VTOL. It has no wings and essentially uses thruster-tipped helicopter blades to take off and land. But the blades rotate around the center of the craft, behind the cockpit. This creates a ton of potential issues that, fortunately, never had to be dealt with since it was never built. But, now I have to deal with them.
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About Trailmakers:
In the toughest motoring expedition in the universe, you and your friends will build your own vehicles to cross a dangerous wasteland. Explore, crash horribly, use your wits to build a better rig, and get as far as you can with whatever spare parts you find on your way.
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Trailmakers is about building very awesome vehicles and machines, but you don’t need an engineering degree to get started. The intuitive builder will get you going in no time. Everything you build is made from physical building blocks. Each block has unique features like shape, weight and functionality. They can be broken off, refitted and used to build something new. Individually the blocks are fairly simple, but combined the possibilities are endless.
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Sandbox Mode is where you want to head for an unrestricted, sandbox, vehicle-building experience. Here you can build anything you can dream of, and play around with it in the world of Trailmakers. It is a great place to test out crazy machines, and experiment with the physics engine. With tons of different blocks, hinges, thrusters and interactive vehicle parts - the skybox is the limit.
Trailmakers is even more fun if you play it with other people. Build cool vehicles and compete in mini-game modes with your friends or other Trailmakers online. Build a helicopter, send it to your friend, and shoot them out of the sky. Put two seats on a tank, and let your friend control the turret. As we get further in Early Access development Expedition Mode will also be adapted to multiplayer.
Learn more about the game on www.playtrailma... #scrapman #trailmakers
![This Hydrofoil is also a VTOL, and More! [BEST CREATIONS] - Trailmakers Gameplay](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JBRewASJTx4/mqdefault.jpg)
”Imagine a helicopter but with jets on the tip of the blades”. Ah yes, scrap mechanic helicopter
kAN has a chopper like that.
Probably everyone thought that
There's actually a real helicopter that attempted this by the USAF.
@@foxracerdrew I remember that helicopter it was supposed to be light and easy to assemble on the battlefield so a normal engine would be to heavy that's why they used jets.
I want what this guy was smoking....
4:05, to answer that question, I think that the air moves through the rudder rather than the other way around. For helicopters to get lift, they shove air downwards, so when this is hovering, you get a large force pushing down at the ground, also hitting your rudder which lets you have control. Maybe not in Trailmakers, but for real life it would probably work.
Probably*😂
are you sure? i thought helicopter literaly just moved the wings of a plane through the air insteade of moving theplane and wings through the air. they dont push air like a fan, they seperate the air creating pressure to fly, and yeah downward force is created too, but not insane amounts, just enogh to make grass sway. you wouldnt feel a sudden burst of wind from above if a heli flew over you unless it was real close. so it might work a little bit.
@@foxidafluffy8294 You definitely do get a large amount of wind beneath a helicopter. The Coast Guard even practices using it to move boats
@@frederickthesquirrel but its not a propeller. Its function isnt to shove down air fast, its a wing.
@@mrnorthz9373 czcams.com/video/XQcNwDuoxBk/video.html Proof
The gyroscopic effect appear only when there is a certain pitch/yaw rate. In other words only when you change the direction of the angular velocity vector of the "wings". This is why when you take off you fly straight, because the direction of the angular velocity is constant along the vertical direction.
Just a little explanation for the curios ones, have a good day all!
If the physics are calculated correctly, gravity itself should also cause gyroscopic precession, even with no control inputs (assuming the craft isn't perfectly vertical).
yeah science
no but realy how did you get that smart i would like to know because i'm a avionics and space freak like i love those things and i would love to know how they work like yeah i can't describe it but yeah pls let me know or maybe teach me a 13 year old adhd person
@@bartelhehe3049 I tend to picture a gyroscope as an orbit, which is what helps me visualize the forces better. I'm pretty familiar with orbital mechanics, so choosing that brings the math into a familiar setting. (the core math for orbits and gyroscopes is pretty similar)
@@circuitgamer7759 ok Thx aaaand about the math i don't know It because here where i am you learn that kind of math in you 8th schoolyear
@@circuitgamer7759 gyroscopes are entities that apply force to the object making it either stay looking at the gyroscope direction or the chosen direction, that force can be countered by a greater one but once that greater forcr is gone, the gyroscope does its job
As a german i enjoy you saying „triebflügel“ almost as much as english people saying „Sauerkraut“
And by the way „triebflügel“ means something like „thrust wing“
Kann es verstehen
Es is wie in diesen Videos bei denen Engländer versuchen Deutsch zu sprechen
Ja@@GoodMic69
"Last Talons of the Eagle", a book about Luftwaffe experimental aircraft, has a section on this. Another disadvantage you didn't suffer was the problem of getting fuel from the stationary fuselage to the spinning blades. Apparently it used to leak out.
I wonder why? Its not like it’s nearly impossible to make a tight seal on a spinning bearing.
@@Crummieboi56 Excavators do it all the time, and with much higher pressure.
@@Crummieboi56 Varying stress, perhaps, as the aircraft flew?
@@Crummieboi56 it was a little while ago
This design is actually somewhat common in Kerbal Space Program
yeah, Scrapman should play KSP ^^ that would be a lot of fun
Seconded.
i third this
@@19future91 yeah KSP is more realistic than trailmakers . . so using that would make more sence
but that also makes vehicle desingn quite a bit more complicated
yes
i’d love to see a community build challenge where everyone builds failed WWI or WWII vehicles and battles them
Your name could be longer
@@Floppy_Waffle not rlly
Everybody has to battle in their most comical creation.
Next time try to build a Strv 103, it’s a wedge tank so I’m positive you’ll like it. It also has suspensions that aim not only the gun but the whole tank up and down
It had very fancy pneumatic suspension for elevation and depression of the entire hull and both the driver and the gunner had aiming controls. Despite its relatively small size, it had 2 different engines and an auto loader. The Swedish designers for this thing must have really liked tank steering because they use it to aim the gun both side to side and up and down. If only games like scrap mechanic and trail makers had more useable options for the tank tracks other than just wheels, they can still get the job done but having proper tank tracks would just be so cool
@@natelovestotank2363 up and down tank steering?
@@AlbertoDsign yeah pretty much, it’s just my stupid way of explaining that this tank used neutral steering to turn the tank to aim the gun on the horizontal axis but it also tilted the tank to aim on the vertical axis (elevation and depression)
@@AlbertoDsignthink about hydraulic suspension on low riders, now take that suspension and apply it to a multi-ton vehicle. That’s how you aim
We truly love your vids scrapman and we will support you forever...
indeed
indeed
Yep mate
indeed
Scrapman I think the fairey rotodyne would be a fun concept to build. It's a heli that has a free spinning prop on the top and no wings.
From memory it's basically just a autogyro isn't it?
The wings pitch independently to each other to control the steering !
The Germans did have ejection seat by 1942 because they were experimenting with a kamikaze plane based off the V1 buzzbomb and they continued experimentation with ejection seats. So in theory you would have an ejection seat in this fighter.
hmm yes i sure do love ejecting my seat to save myself but ending up being chopped by the blades of my own "plane"
@@lookatel3658 the blades would be detached using explosive bolts and then the ejection seats rocket motor would fire
@@bescotdude9121 I hope that hey got the sequence in that order xD
@@lookatel3658 You could use exploding bolts on the blades to launch the blades off the aircraft when you’re ejecting. Similar to helicopter’s ejection seats. And yes the Germans had exploding bolts in the middle of World War II
@@bescotdude9121 Until the blade ejection mechanism fails but the seat ejection mechanism doesn't.
Try making the strv 103, it's a certified wedge gang tank and its gun is basically attached to the body so the treads tilt back and forth to aim the gun
god i love this series! they get more and more interesting each time! i also like how we get a bit of a lesson on the subject every episode. keep up the amazing work!
Man you don't get enough credit for how much hard work you must put into these videos
Just imagine seeing these flying over the battle field
Hey Scrapman, you should try to make a Blackbird Vehicle in Trailmakers: High Seas. I would love to see you try that.
3:48 Not sure that's correct IRL, (definitely an issue in games) you don't need to be moving relative to the ground, you just need the air to be moving relative to control surfaces to have control. The air would definitely be moving, given the huge blades.
Try doing the "Nutcracker VTOL G-674".
Its just a crazy VTOL (like it says in the name) that quite literally folds on it self by 90° to land.
I think it will be hard to build but i also think that it will be a fun challenge for SCRAPMAN.
I would try locking the spinning of the wings once in the air. Also it's more stable because you have 3 thrusters in 3 planes making it quite stable. With 4 thrusters once you have 2 thrusters for one plane and they can move independently by vibration, it will create wobling. you can imagine it by compering 3D printers, classic ones vs 3 arm ones. by controlling 3 directions instead of 2 you gain more stability
Also, bolas have 3 strings with weights for a reason. They are probably using the same stabilizing effect.
I honestly believe that why the vtol wanted to roate left was the magnus force
The wings going up on the left where grabbing the air and forcing it down, creating the opposite effect of the wings trying to go up in the air column on that side, while the wings on the right rotated downwards creates the opposite force. Therefore the craft will move left in the column.
If this doesn't make sence go watch how the magus effect works and see if you can re-create it in trail makers to confirm or disprove my theory. It would be super interesting if it does work.
I thought the magnus force was an effect on spinning balls?
This one actually reminds me of the coléoptère, it would be cool to see that replicated!
I was thinking the same thing!
Thank you for the many hours of research, gameplay, and editing that goes into this series
I could be wrong but I bet that the blades would push air over the control surfaces enabling them to work even while hovering. Love your videos ScrapMan, keep up the great work!
Yeah, but not in trailmakers simplified physics sadly
If your building crazy VTOLs I suggest recreating the pogo aircraft it was a small experimental plane that was meant to go on smaller ships like destroyers as a first line of defense it got scrapped because of how difficult it was to take off/ land
did anyone notice the swastika he made on accident with the steering hinges at 13:50
Awesome content man! Hope everything is doing well nothing goes wrong big fan
things are gonna go wrong, we can’t control that :/ but i hope nothing seriously bad happens
I’ve really been enjoying the newest history builds you’ve been doing. The little history lessons on the vehicle as well as your own take on it is really awesome to watch.
I can’t believe you are still making quality content like this! Thanks so much for this!
I recommend looking inspiration from the mustard youtube channel. There you can find alot of wierd or different machines. And I think attempting to build a rotodyne would be cool :D
Such a good channel
One issue I also see with the design is you're fighting friction the whole way through, especially when landing or taking off. The airframe itself will start to corkscrew along with the spinning wings, all because of the friction from the wings' mounts.
Thank you for taking the extra time and effort to make more engineering designs. I hope you're inspiring children to take more interest in engineering beyond video games.
Try using 2 wings and have them like normal wings during regular flight. So you would take off like in the video. Go really high as you tilted forward. Lock the wings in place at horizontal to the ground and fly it like a regular plane.
Make a lasso that can cut a building in half in wepons of destruction 🧨🔥🔥🔥🔥
This might work fine if it used a swashplate instead of ailerons, though that already exists, kinda, it's basically just a helicopter with thruster power, If I remember correctly, that was the first concept for a helicopter.
Hey scrapman I appreciate you because the first day I had Covid I saw your channel so you kept me entertained I still watch you even if that was almost a year ago
15:08 15:31 I think you're right with the gyroscopic effects.
When you are vertical, your thrusters point downwards and you take off straight, fairly intuitive.
When you are horizontal, ignoring the spinning wings for now, you have lift in the back and no lift in the front. This would appear to make the aircraft pitch downwards.
If you now take into account the sprinning wings and their gyroscopic effects, this "pitch down" torque is rotated 90 degrees and now results in a "yaw left" torque.
15:31 I believe this is why the aircraft yaws to the left naturally and it doesnt appear to control well.
Using this logic for the pitch/yaw controls:
You try pitch up --> aircraft yaws right
You try yaw right --> aircraft pitches down
You try pitch down --> aircraft yaws left
You try yaw left --> aircraft pitches up
To test, if you reverse the spin of the wings it should naturally yaw to the right instead of left
At the end of the day this could all be meaningless unless it's tested to be correct (might make a good video idk).
So instead, have a nice day👌
I’m German and i just wanna say: i partially came to this video because i wanted to see how much you’ll butcher “Triebflügel”
We need to know, were you satisfied?
@@YourLocalPillow yes
😂 i wasnt satisfied Bro Said Tri jep Flugel 😂
same
Day 290 of asking scrapman to make a plane dogfight evolution video (trailmakers)
It would be super cool for you guys to do a multiplayer version of this. Either you guys all attempt to make the same thing, or you all come into it with different ideas, build them (or show up with prebuilt), and share what you’ve learned about each historical vehicle.
For example, you guys all build plane concepts, then you compete in some races. After you all judge each other’s creations on
Accuracy
Functionality
And Performance (just the total scores of the races)
I think the key is to stop the rotation altogether so the rotor blades become fixed wings. You could also try making them wider like the original design. There were also wheels with suspension on the tail fins
Add weight to the bottom to change the center of mass so it naturally would want to pitch-up.
Right now *it's top-heavy* so it naturally want's to nose-dive. . . which isn't exactly what you want for a VTOL.
TR
trie- yeah no
I love how this thing has enough thrust to actually be a good plane, but they added complexity and danger for no reason.
okay
BTW I love how ScrapMan always finds genuinely good sources for his creations.
(It isn't sarcasm although I have a power to construct sentences that can be easily misunderstood as that. The sources ScrapMan usually uses are really reliable next to other internet history pages.)
Robert H. Goddard’s first rocket...
He fell for the pendulum fallacy
Boost this comment to help scrapman:
To make stronger turning point first place a helicopter engine, set to 0 power and no input.
Put the servo on the heli engine and build the wings/blades on top of that.
Now you connect the heli engine to the wings using a flat connector 3x1.
Propeller aircraft when taking off tend to drift to the left and also try doing that even while up in the air. The tail of a propeller plane has a tab that is bent slightly to compensate for it. It only is noticeable when taking off as that tab is only bent enough for cruising speeds and when you take off you have to go to max throttle so you have to apply some rubber to compensate.
America and France both had similar but slightly-less-insane VTOL designs that they actually built in the '50s. The Convair XFY "Pogo" and Lockheed XFV "Salmon" both used contra-rotating propellers on the nose and the SNECMA C.450 Coléoptère had a ducted fan behind the cockpit. The Coléoptère was unique in that the pilot's seat rotated so that it was always upright. All projects were abandoned within a year or two due to how difficult they were to pilot.
Your hairs don't get white?
f
Ur first
zamn
Hey scrapman can you make a moving fortress!? That going to be amazing.
I'd be interested to see something like this with contra rotating blades to see if can fix any gyroscopic precession/adverse yaw issues in future projects
First
Nice
I was first
I liked this vid first aswell
@@ms1600 nah VENI was
Just wasn’t first comment
i really liked the smoke pattern the thrusters made, propably looks really cool if you put these rainbow generators on the end of the wings
4:10 Yes that was a big issue with these "tail sitter" type VTOL aircraft from around that era
Hey man I love the vids I remember when you used to do the scrap mechanic survival mode I would wake up at 7:00 every morning and watch your video keep up the good work
Can you try and build a Hulett Loader from the great lakes, I think it would fit nicely in your historic vehicles and mechanisms series thing.
I remember talking to a friend about this plane some time ago, he had the same thought about the emergency eject, I theorised the blades had an emergency decoupler that would release the blades prior to the pilot.
also the reason you listed to the left constantly is the asymmetry of the blades, since the connectors where the wings are attached are on a 2x2 grid you were forced to put them on one side of the square applying the force of the lift off of the center of mass. perhaps putting one pair on the opposite side of the hinge would apply equal forge on the the other side of the vehicle.
the historical stuff is so cool! keep it up scrapman
Potential improvement ideas (just in case you want to try again later):
Centralize the center of mass
Try a two-tiered rotor design similar to that of a helicopter
More wedges :)
You should definitely try the VZ-1 Pawnee next. A propellor platform used like a hoverboard for scouts. The pilot would angle their body for directional control
Scrapman is teaching me more history than any of my years of being in school
I love the smoke spiral it’s so satisfying
You should do a follow-up video trying to make this as best as you possibly can also try adding a Thruster at the end pretty weak but it will help you get vertical if you put it on hinge or something I just want to see if this creation would actually work if some more work was put into it
Also it might be smart to put a tiny bit of lift on the blades that rotate like One Wing in between regular blocks
I love how the game could sense your historical inaccuracy of adding a fourth blade, and was like "N o."
I think the blades are supposed to stop turning once you go into the horizontal flight position... The helicopter mode is just for vertical take-off, landing, and hovering.
15:10 the change in direction IS what causes the yaw. If you get a gyro toy and get is spinning straight up and down (as intended) then try to push it over, it will want to start rotating in the direction of rotation.
that looks col though, and the paterns the smoke trails make is satisfying
You can try to make the Reid RFS-1, the flying submarine (yes it existed IRL)
,,Sherman DD tanks,, XD water-land, land-air, air-water, we have them all XD
I think you shouldn't angle the blades completely vertical when you start flying forward - that just gives you less thrust because the wings are completely parallel to the airflow.
I feel like if you were to move the thrusters closer to the center of the fuselage then there may be some more stability. I believe there's a counter-torque thing happening when you pitch horizontal with the four bladed design. Basically while the blades rotate it's causing the tail end of the creation to move out to the right in return causing the nose and thrusters to turn left. Of course you would have to really crack down on the weight of the creation. Making sure it is of equal weight on either side of the blades.
Crazy good piloting skills! Maybe more weight added to the tail to help pitch and landing? This build is just hilarious lol!!
Please try the Arctic Land Train. It's got wheels and no tracks, steering built-in, and electric motors.
You should make it a double rotor with the second rotor spinning in the opposite direction to counter balance the gyroscope effect.
The biggest irony with this design is that VTOLs are usually built to allow them to use a very small landing pad or runway. But this flyer resists getting into a vertical orientation for it's landing way too hard for the pilot to predict where he'll be able to make that happen. And once you are vertical, the only thing you can do is to lock yourself into the orientation you happen to be in and see where that takes you down to. So effectively, this thing needs an empty space that's 1 or more runway lengths long and 1 or more runway lengths wide to be able to land safely.
Alternatively, these could be used from ships or submarines: Take off from a tiny pad are no problem at all. And to land the flyer just goes into a hover SOMEWHERE over the water and it's the ship's job to put the landing pad under his tail and tell him when to come down.
Believe it or not tip-jets are not a terrible idea, but are hard to implement. The Sud-Ouest Djinn is the only successful mass produced tip-jet helicopter I'm aware of, but it used a jet engine to supply compressed air to the tip jets, which simplified things greatly as there wasn't any fuel/combustion in the tip-jets, they were just compressed air nozzles essentially.
12:38:
"I'll show you an ejection seat!"
They actually used these in _Captain America: the First Avenger._ They were powered by energy from the Tesseract.
Man these videos are fantastic. Great job!
Your main issue is that the rear flaps aren't keeping their orientation with respect to the cockpit. It is rotating and thus screwing up your controls. I would recommend a larger surface area on the rear stabilizers. The other thing you can do is have 2 counter rotating propellers to cancel out the rotation. Finally, to control pitch and yaw, you can also implement logic similar to the monospinner but rotated 90 degrees to control the jet power as well as the rotation on the ends of the rotor. Your compasses can be horizontal, and you just correct for this using the logic blocks.
In order to get more pitch and yaw control while hovering, you could make the whole tail section angle, instead of just the fins. The shift of its weight should give you some control over your thrust direction. The only problem is that if you go backwards, the tail fins will switch the direction they steer you in, so you'd ideally need independent controls, or at least logic gates that swap thee tail fin movements while you descend backwards.
I’ve had problems with the gyro before. It’s a pretty easy fix if you make a second propeller spinning the opposite direction (it will make the uncontrollable spinning go away, however it does have its own problems being it becomes considerably heavier as well as the body may need to be longer)
And that's how helicopters ended up being made.
This was featured in the first Captain America Movie! It was one of the escape vehicles used by Red Skull
If I had to guess, having an ejector seat would actually be completely safe, if they used the same trick that helicopters use - they have their rotor blades attached with explosive bolts so that they get flung off before the pilot gets ejected.
Also, it would probably be a lot easier to pilot a real one, as I suspect that they'd use a mechanism that would allow the pilot to adjust the pitch of the blades based on where they are in relation to the fuselage in order to steer, instead of just relying on the tail fins - again, in the same way a helicopter would do it.
germans were way ahead of their time. they even make our stuff look crude in comparison
OOO i have good challenge, Make a Plane with a realistic Ejector Seat. One that deploys parachute after being ejected and try to have player land safely!
one option to improve it might be to split 4 wings into 2 sets of counter-rotating rocket-props, reducing the gyroscopic forces, and maybe possibly being more stable since its only 2 props per heli-rotor.
Expectations:cool heliplane
Reality: rideble firworks
Thank you Scrapman for the animation with the helicopter I was eating Spaghetti and well long story short they ended up in my nose.
Was not pleasant.
To fix the gyroscopic issues maybe you could sacrifice the symmetry for stability
Basically what most single-engine planes have before: offset vertical wings
You should upload those to the workshop and do some sort of a viewer contest to see who can make it better. BTW you should build the Cierva C.4
I think the problem with this, the Focke-Wulf Triebflügel was mean to not have its wings spin when flying out of VTOL. They spun like a helicopter, then acted as normal wings by turning parallel with the fuselage. It really reduces wobble and lets the plane fly longer and smoother.
The whole time youre fighting the pitch, im over here like "Perfect time for a scrap mechanic suspension glitch." Seems tho, you COULD make this in SM as well.. Id watch it..
I think I remember seeing this plane in Captain America: The First Avenger. And yes, he did throw the pilot into the spinning blades so that would be a engineering and safety issue
His helicopter analogy of the triebflugel sounds just like every helicopter in scrap mechanic
Honestly this is better than any plane i can make in trail makers.
Finally I wanted to see it for So long
I've literally been browsing through Wikipedia 3 days ago and I've stumbled upon this VTOL and I've thought that it would be awesome to see this build by Scrapman. And here it is. What are the odds. Ha
Dang. As soon as he added the fourth blade, it started to collapse in on itself like a dying star.
Video idea: Scrapmechanic survival series with Kan or Kosmo (after the problem) or both and youre mission is to automate as much as posible without making it imposible to play
scrapman: talking about gyroscopic force and stuff.
me: i like your funny words magic man