Hardshell Vs Softshell Trousers: Why You DON'T Need The Most Expensive | Climbing Daily Ep.1801
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- čas přidán 11. 03. 2021
- There are two main types of mountaineering/climbing trousers, Hardshells and Softshells. Today we look at the differences between them and work out which type of climbing they are appropriate for. Do you need a €400+ pair of trousers...or will something cheaper do?
Arc'teryx Beta AR: bit.ly/3cmxILn
Hardshell trousers: bit.ly/38yQnSX
Softshell trousers: bit.ly/38xX6fQ
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Hardshell Vs Softshell Trousers: Why You DON'T Need The Most Expensive | Climbing Daily Ep.1801 - Sport
I hear a LOT of people lamenting over the price, but here is the thing: a lot of what you are paying for is not actually the quality of the garment (I can identify a number of products that perform better than goretex in respective categories) what you are paying for is the research that went in to creating the technology required to fulfill the need of the consumer. Goretex was really the first company to apply expanded polytetrafluoroethylene waterproofing technology to an outdoor product and the reason a lot of other similar products are priced so much lower is because they didn't have to foot the bill for the research they just followed Goretex's recipe. If you can't afford goretex pro or arc'teryx products that's completely understandable, there are plenty of good alternatives. Arc'teryx themselves actually do a really good job at explaining which of their products is right for you, and the answer is seldom the top of the line. If all you are doing is wearing your rain jacket around town or at the crag nobody in their right mind is suggesting you should buy the Alpha SV. BUT just because you don't need it doesn't mean somebody else doesn't. I ski and ice climb in Canada and I can identify a number of times where I've been out in the backcountry and if I got wet (either from a tear in my shell because it wasn't durable enough or from sweat because it wasn't breathable enough) I legitimately would have probably gone hypothermic and died. THAT is the situation where the 800$ jacket becomes worth it and the 300$ jacket becomes ornamental. The same logic applies to pants. What you are actually paying for with the Beta AR is the Gorepro. The same pant in Triolet or Paclight would cost 1/3 or 1/2 respectively and depending on how much breathability/durability/packability you need one of those might suit you better. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk
I understand that R&D are very important when it comes to this type of clothing. But if we're going to talk about logic, just how long, logically, should consumers continue to pay for R&D that was completed and paid off years ago? Granted, some of that is going toward CURRENT R&D on next-generation gear, but I don't think any of us would pretend that this explains the "markup" on much of this type of clothing.
I am definitely NOT one of those "you're only paying for the brand" people. I've shopped around enough to know how absurd that is. Those top Arc-teryx hardshell jackets are beasts. But we do all have to make our peace with the fact that, to a certain extent, we ARE paying a certain extra percentage because of the logo. Ozark Trail can't sell a $200 jacket for $700. But Arc'teryx could probably take a $30 Ozark Trail jacket and get $120 for it.
Of course, Arc'teryx is an interesting case study. It's really not worth getting what the brand offers in jackets until you hit about the $300 price point. What they offer below that you can usually find for much less from other companies. Most companies have their broad line, then they have a very few things they do really well. I watch a lot of Nordic sports on TV. Even L.L. Bean and Eddie Bauer still have a very respected item or two out there aside from the other 95% of their lines, which is basically fireplace fashion and ... duck boots or something. I don't know. I haven't been in one since the late 80s. 🤣.
Take care!
@A.J. Hart totally agree with you on your point of anything arc'teryx below 300$ not being worth it (with a couple of exceptions mostly in the territory of softshells). A lot of their logo wear is phenomenally marked up. However, as soon as you start involving third party textile brands (Goretex in most cases) you should take a look at what other companies offer in the same membrane and with roughly the same denier face fabric. Sometimes you can find something for a deal, but for the most part you actually wind up seeing pretty similar price points. For the purpose of discussion I'm going to use Canadian dollars as that's what I'm familiar with (it's also possible that these numbers are not reflective of your local market for arc'teryx because they are Canadian): for anything with Paclight plus you are looking at 300-400$, for Triolet or C knit for 500-600$. Gore pro gets a little more complicated as I've seen some as low as 660 (Rab muztag) or as high as 950$(arc'teryx Alpha SV) BUT if you look at the face fabric the Rab is a 40D and the arc'teryx is a whopping 100D.
There is of course the brand tax on all stuff arc'teryx but it is not as substantial as people think. Most of the time if you look at genuinely comparable products you are talking in the ball park of 50-100 dollars on the top of the line performance wear.
I also disagree with the premise that R&D is a one and done kind of process. In no way do I believe that gear is as good as it can or should get, and the reality of pushing the boundary of what's possible is that there will be a lot of failure and failed research still costs money. Also Gore has shown quantifiable improvements to a number of their products in the last ten years. We saw an upgrade to Paclight, a diversification of the Gore pro membrane and the introduction of Cknit(which side note is right in the middle in terms of price point and is usually the most appropriate membrane for the vast majority of people).
All that being said I myself don't even own a single article of arc'teryx clothing (despite having a pro deal with them). I do have to sell them for my job though so if anyone has any info or resources that I'm missing shoot them my way... I can admit when I'm wrong but I'd prefer to know why😅
Get out of here. Your 800$ jacket makes you look stupid. Believe whatever you want. They will have a shirt for you that will be 1000$. Just admit you got conned into their marketing. It’s ok.
@@tomtumble1868 uhhhh, no.
You people out there, don't sweat in the cold unless you wear a $800 cutting edge technology jacket, you could die!!!
Beautifully presented and clear as ever. Thank you Matt.
"You don't need the most expensive, but Arc'Teryx."
This a true oxymoron
Arc'Teryx isn't really worth it until you get to the really pricey stuff. With THAT stuff you often only find a few manufacturers in the world that make as good of a product, and they're all charging a lot for it. Their $300 jacket might be a $125 one from North Face, but North Face is not making the $700 jacket Arc'Teryx is putting out there without charging at least $700 for it.
I needed a hardshell for a mountain summit I'm planning. I can't afford the $700 Arc'Teryx (I mean, I CAN but WTF do you do with that jacket the other 350+ days a year?), so you decide what your trade-offs are and go from there. I found a North Face jacket that would do fine (I'm broad chested, so that eliminates Marmot, Mammut and half of the other manufacturers to begin with). The only problem with the North Face one is that it doesn't have high pockets I can access while wearing a harness. But I tried it on for size at Bass Pro, then went to Amazon, found a color I liked and got it for half of THAT.
My take on the subject:
Summer mountaineering: Softhell pants
Winter mountaineering in the alps: Long underwear + Softshell pants (most of the time you don't need hardshell pants)
Ice climbing: Long underwear + Softshell pants
Ice climbing at the end or beginning of the season: Long underwear + Softshell pants + hardshell pants
In short I agree, you don't need hardsell pants very often
With me, basically unless you're doing it in conditions that would actually wet something through, I just stick with softshells. It's not like I'm walking on my knees through snow. You can get $20 Wrangler hiking pants and Walmart that, when you stop to tie your boots, don't allow the knees to get wetted. That's probably good enough for 90% of folks. That being said, I got some OR Cirque II pants for crampon summits. I just don't like to wear out the good stuff for no reason.
don´t know your weather winter condition, but temperatures about 0 Celsius or even ten bellow zero, but in sunny day (and at the moment you can be far under sunny place) definitely need waterproof hardshell. And those are my conditions at least half the winter season.
You might have offered some examples of the numerous cheaper, high-quality soft and hard-shell options that exist out there though instead of just mentioning that they exist. Would have made the whole thing feel a lot less like a 7 minute ad.
I support y'all making that money, but it was quite over the top on this one.
I honestly ice climb in soft shell pants most of the time. Unless it’s going to be very cold or windy.
Arcteryx are great, but their pants are way too baggy, even the "slimmest" Sigma FL, especially the ends of the trousers, even with other pants. Beta AR would be much better if they had one zip all the way instead of 2, it's easier to put them over your softshells and boots, also while wearing crampons if you can open them up all the way. Otherwise a very nice video with the explanation about the actual uses, features etc. :)
Nice!! I fell in love with Arc'Teryx because they have the best fit for me...Yes it's on the high end but I see it as paying for a tailored fit, Not just the quality of the kit or the name. Most other brands I'm in-between a small and medium. When you start layering, then a good fitting piece of kit makes all the difference.. I use my Sigma FL for most of my climbing and my Alpha AR pant for Backcounry Snowboarding and Ski Mountaineering. Layering both on brutal days out...
I go with the Cirque II's from OR. The problem I have is that the lengths on pretty much all options. As you go up in girth, the corresponding increase in length is a bit outsized. I like my pants but they definitely break a few times around the ankles. Tough to hem up, though, with the crampon pads down there.
@@cobbler88 I have the same pants and the same issue...lol. The Cirque II are amazing in every way, except they don't offer different inseam options. Arcteryx (Gamma AR for example) has OR beat in that regard.
This is me. I have an x frame. So the box style just doesn't work
I would never buy a hard shell pant that wasn't full zip. Having to take off crampons to put them on is very inconvenient. Hard shell pants are for when things get wet. Wear soft shell for everything but rain and really wet ice. Just put the hard shell on over the soft when things get ugly. Full zip always.
Exactly.
I've had the experience of trying to layer a hardshell over softshell pants in snow and my legs were absolutely roasting. It was unbearable and just causing me to sweat, so had to stuff around getting the hardshells off again.
I own both of these trousers and have to say they are both amazing.For 99% of the time I use the sigma fl. Its comfy to wear and is durable enough. BUT I always have my beta ar with me just in case im on the mountain and the weather is changing. If its cold and you start freezing you are making mistakes and that's obviously not good.
Im the biggest fan of arcteryx but I don't like what they have done with the new beta ar. I own the old one which had inbuilt gators and a full length zip so you can put it on while wearing boots.
Whey took away those features and raised the price by 30 euros. Thats not a move I like.
BUT I would not wear anything else but arcteryx just because it never failed me and I know im save in it.
I love the Gamma AR and MX pants.
Nice video and great explanations
It is so sad that i can rarely find Arc teryx -Patagonia or Outdoor Research products in my country these days. I bought a TNF softshell pant(diablo 2) for this winter and it`s pretty descent to be fair . I think that softshell pants are all around the best option for winter hands down
Matt your typical good weather climber, and not ashamed of it.
Arcteryx are cut way too baggy for my tastes and a bit short
I’ve had a set of hard shells for about 10 years that zip up the sides completely making them super easy to take off or put on without removing footwear and they are still holding up well and I think I paid 70 bucks for them on sale and use them snowboarding all the time
dont think Hannibal needed that to cross the alps :)
"Scottish winter mountaineering.. you absolute psychos" hahaa cheers Matt
That's when you break out the Gore-Tex kilt :)
you could tune your volume up a little, imho.
otherwise interesting video.
My experience is, that a hardshell pant does not need to be that breathable if combined with a full length side zip. I have one, I bought 15 years ago, it is a Milo (I think polish brand), for about 50-60 EUR. It still works really well. I sweat a lot, but I can perfectly regulate the temperature with the side zip, and if it is snowing anyway, you will not be so warm, and I just close it. I use it for skitouring, alpine skiing occasionally, and winter mountaineering, ice climbing. If there was a similar model (not gore tex, fairly waterproof, very tough, side-zip), cheap, I would buy, but I havent found it yet.
Is this a disguise paid advertisement for arcteryx ???!!!! ahahaha
Hey :) no it wasn't. We are sponsored by arc'teryx so it's the gear we mostly get to use.
Haha. Never heard of that brand. Overpriced.
Norrøna or Bergans is way better than Acteryx. Bergans new membranes have considerably better breathability while at same waterproofing level.
I purchased a Alpha SV top shell and Beta AR pants, I also have the Psiphon soft-shell pants from Arxteryx. I went and grabbed a Quasar top shell and pants from Mountain Hardwear on sale to lighten things up. They are not nearly as bombproof as the Arcteryx gear, but for something to be hauling around, I prefer the MHW when I don't know what the weather is going to do and I throw them in the bottom of my pack.
Love Mountain Hardwear products. I find that they are priced well for what they offer. As for trousers, I usually stick with MHW or Fjallraven.
@@kyleklejewski4887 I am a Mountain Hardware whore. I get people asking if I work for the company because I have so much stuff from them. I love it when their stuff goes on sale, which is pretty often through the year.
I haven't had a chance to try any of the Fjallraven yet. I see their pants, but I am not tall and usually go with companies who offer a 30" or 31" inseam. Some companies regular length can be between 32" up to 34"
Arcteryx are way too baggy for my tastes often baggy and a little too short as well
Hey Iam a mailman in mn looking for something walking in the snow and winter time I do have spikes under my shoes for ice attract . Should I go hardshell or solfshell? As of right now I’m using a reg rain pants it’s all cut up from the spikes lol. Or let me anything similar to Arc’teryx hardshell for a cheaper price. Thanks
Subscribed brother 👍🏻
What size are you wearing and how tall/weight are you?
Super-lightweight and cheap - Fjern Vanntett waterproof trousers. Not Goretex but pack down much smaller.
And here i am rocking my Simond mountain hardshell pants, which has been loyal to me for many years now! And if it tears?! ill just dish out 120 euros for a new pair that will last me a long time too! I'd rather put more money towards a premium jacket then the pants that you wont use most of the time!
Love my Simond winter bottoms, amazing for the money.
the volume is strangely low on this episode
small critique and i know it's been a few years since this video but the audio levels are jumpnig around like crazy, between music cuts and the presenter. and even the presenter audio jumps around a lot. hard to listen to, especially if using ear buds
Yeeaah ill just stick with old navy jeans and pj’s underneath in the cold costs about $25
You're payin' for the brand, man! You shouldn't be paying more than $17.50 for that kit! 🤣
Arc’teryx is the bottom of the line but charges premium prices huge difference
Hard shell for mountain walks in the rain.
It would be great if they made trousers a little more funky looking. I find these super boring.
I like how he is talking about affordable pants. Yet is wearing arcteryx. Not subscribing
sound
Trousers! LOL
Hard shell outrageously expensive! How can they justify charging so much?!
I lowered my costs for gore hardshell through buying in armyshop. It decreases spending for quality (and only a bit overweight) dress at least 10 times.
people pay it^^
Audio is way out of balance when talking compared to intro and stuff
I literally climb in a pair of jeans which are 8 years old and have no problems what so ever. Wish I had the money to spend on "climbing trousers"
That might work in some scenarios.
I just went for a climb today, the wind was around 50km/h with rain, snow, and hail. It would have been very very unpleasant with a pair of jeans!
The most stupid idea i´ve evere had was to buy a brand gore suit for hard winter climb. The best idea was to change it into army gore-tex. Bundeswehr trousers are untearable from crampons and new one cost 15 Euro (about 1/20 of Arcteryx), new hard shell anorak from US army is 1/10 of Arcteryx. Advantages of sustain and prices a lot surmount few grams of its overweight and idiotic soldier look. These advices sure are not for those freecoolin climbers of bolted mixes, but for all day/all terrain route climbers. The first gore finished after one season, army gore after ten years of climbing on ice, in walls, chimneys or aretes still works (well, and stinks a bit ;-) ). Poor capitalism!
overpriced bullshit. had them, dumped them. one pays 100 euros more for the emblem.
I don't climb at all but do live and hunt in Canada where it is -38 Celsius today. I have a goretex jacket I wear for hunting which I like cause it totally blocks wind but because I don't wear gortex pants it still allows breathability. From your experience does wearing a full goretex suit suck? I read goretex breathes better the colder it is outside because then the humidity difference is greatest.