Snow Valley Bike Park - Review. My honest thoughts.
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
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@The Outsider MTB and I head up for an afternoon at Snow Valley, and I give my thoughts on Southern California's newest mountain bike park!
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:34 You might get mad.
00:49 About Snow Valley Mountain Bike Park
01:11 A couple caveats
02:01 Trail - Bandit
02:11 Everything is loose. "Kitty litter"
02:33 How to ride kitty litter (pumice)
03:16 Zero Dabs! @PaulThePunter
03:45 All the trails merge here.
04:16 Trail - Gun Smoke
04:26 Trail - Winchester
05:31 Trail - Sidewinder
06:08 The jumps are interesting.
07:14 Trail - Bronco (aka Crazy Horse)
08:00 I'm judging you the whole time.
08:55 My only issue with this trail.
09:12 Trail - Green Horn
10:54 Not bike park trails.
11:28 Let's do Snow Valley justice.
11:59 Quick tip!
12:14 Outro
#mtb #snowvalley #review - Sport
These are my honest thoughts on Snow Valley. If you love Snow Valley, you can throw my thoughts out the window. 😄 Snow Valley is definitely the mountain bike park underdog in Southern California. But that's gonna happen when there's three parks so close together. I had fun that day up there, but I'm still wondering how often I'll go back.
Snow valleys pretty cool. I think its gonna get better & better every season. Skypark 2 me is only worthy 4 Comet & Jumpline & Summits cool aswell but idk why i get tired of it after 3-4 times in the season. Snow valley is chill nothing crazy/knarly just a bike park in the works & way less the fiasco of getting on the lifts & overcrowding of ur surroundings. With i just mix all 3 park in rotation & it ends up giving me a different scenery along with the local trails down from the mtn..
Indeed! Having to pick which bike park to ride on any given day is quite a high quality problem. 🤘🏽😁
First time I rode Snow Valley is the first time I met you Alan and discovered this channel. At that time there was one trail, and it was primarily the Sundance Trail you missed this time. The park now has three trails up top (1 green, 2 blue) a “Bow Tie” meeting point in the middle, and 3 trails going down (1 green, 2 blue). So there are 9 combination runs, not counting the Sidewinder Jumptrail offshoot, or Gunsmoke. The park is an impressive “work in progress” and is great news for the area based on how crowded Summit gets. We really need it to continue to improve and succeed. I think you did a good job of covering the conditions and the additional skills needed to ride, It’s SoCal dirt. Big plusses are it being 30 min closer each way for most of us. And the current lack of crowds. The “Green” trails are really more like Blue trails and are the most fun I think. Gunsmoke seems more like a double black and I ended up walking almost all it. But I did see some very skilled riders blast over the top of the rocks all the way down. It promises to improve over time, but right now is a HUGE jump in difficulty from the rest of the park. The new jump line being built may also be too big a skills gap from what’s there now. One big consideration for riders is the skill level of people currently attending, There don’t seem to be the super fast race crews doing back flips off jumps and yelling for you to pull over. Likewise I have not seen the normal super beginner riders like at Summit that can barely make it down the green trail. So the vibe is mostly lower intermediate riders happy to enjoy the blue tech trail experience that currently exists. Good video. Again thanks for all your hard work on the channel.
Wow Darren! You really nailed it. That's probably such a good description of Snow Valley.
And I especially agree with you on the new jump line. It seems more like pro line, and I wonder how many current season pass holders will be riding it.
I definitely hear that concern some have about having faster riders yelling at them at Snow Summit. I regularly come up on slower riders and always try to be considerate. But I know it can be unnerving. It can be tough because if a rider doesn't understand the purpose of a squirrel catcher, they can easily get in over their heads and then it's tool late, and they pretty much gotta try to survive the rest of the trail. I'm hoping that the upcoming Blue Steel will help sort that out some.
But dangit! I'm trying to avoid comparing the two parks, but I guess it's inevitable.
@@mtb_alan There are some deaf biker out there and if people yelling then no point to yelling and be patient. They need to be educating about deaf biker can be out there and deaf rider can't keep look back until it's safe to look back and pulling over for faster rider. Thank you for your considerate for slower rider. By the way like your rad videos!
@@dragitliltoy93 Great point! I always say, you always have to give the rider in front the benefit of the doubt. Also, I thought you might appreciate this: my wife used to be a sign language interpreter. 😃
I mainly go to Snow Valley to stay away from Summit’s crowds. I’ll take no lines and drifty awkward trails over 45 minute lines and getting held up in traffic all the way down Party Wave. I hope Snow Valley keeps progressing, very excited to see their jump line trail open in August, at the end of the day we just need more options to manage the growing MTB population.
Really good point about managing the growing MTB population. Have you heard all the rumors about Bear Mountain getting MTB trails...and the gondola that'll take you from peak to peak? 🤯
100% agree green horn was a hoot to ride on. This place is a great deal for a twilight deal. I rode sky park all day Friday until 3pm then drove 25mins to snow valley. No lines on the lift and we rode the entire park in 2 hours.
Ha! Such a fun trail. And yeah...that twilight deal is pretty nice if you can get through that Friday afternoon traffic.
Great review! That kitty litter looks a lot like "dirt" here in Southern Idaho! I have never been to Snow Valley but parts of your video remind me of Lake Tahoe, beautiful!
Dang...that's the one thing that I utterly forgot to mention. Snow Valley definitely has some scenic spots. The trees and lakes...so nice.
Good Stuff as always Alan!
Thanks! 🤘🏽
I was there today and they've opened the bottom of their new pro jump line. They're still working on the top 2/3 but it's pretty amazing. Bigger gaps than Snow Summit. The "dirt" is never going to change, but it looks like they're putting in their first big time trail.
Also, no crowds.
Nice. 🤘🏽
As a Native American, I think Crazy Horse would be honored to have a trail named after him...my .02
Perhaps. It's not the naming, it's the context. The other trails are named after a snake, a 50s TV show, "western" terms for a thief and a noob. I think if the trails were all in honor of Native American culture, it'd be different.
But as I said, I've reached out to Snow Valley, and they haven't responded. So I can only go on the context they provide.
MTB ALAN I can just say from my small sample size (just me, ha ha), that I’m not offended by the name. I’m 50% native, born on the reservation. But, if other natives are offended, then I would agree with a name change.
Nice video! We've been going to SV every weekend for the past month.
Nice!
Was just there today. I LOVED IT . I loved how it felt kinda techy and challenging with all of the loose sand. Liked and subbed! The side hits of Crazy Horse were FUN!!!!
🙏🏾
Hey Alan, thanks for the great insight on the trails there. I haven’t been there but watching several videos it looks just as you described.
Glad you dug it. It's hard to say who's gonna like that place. That's why that Twilight deal can be nice if it fits into your schedule.
Great honest review! Myself crashed hard on the jump line next to the dual slalom course the last weekend in June. Had an MRI and found out I have severe Osteoarthritis in my left shoulders after years of surfing and that crash caused a slight fracture in my bad shoulder and made my arthritis worse....no riding for me for ahwile. Bummed but I really like Snow Valley, Summit is awesome but closing day last year put a sour taste in my mouth. When I'm all healed up which could be Oct, Dec, at least I can depend on my fav place to ride........the Mt. Pinos area! Would love for you to sample the trails there! Keep the amazing content up!!
Dang dude. Sorry to hear about that injury. Hope you heal up well. Thanks for the suggestion. 👊🏽
Solid, honest review. This place is my favorite park in SoCal, mostly because it feels like Mammoth. But that's why I'm confused why you said it doesn't feel like a bike park. It definitely doesn't feel like SS, but it feels like every other ski resort that's a dusty pile of pumice in the summer. Then again, I don't really consider SS a quality place to ski/SB, so maybe that has something to do with the terrain. Thanks for your work out there! And go back for sure to ride Sundance; it's crazy fast with berms and table tops.
Thanks Brandon. To be clear, my comment wasn't referring to the park's soil. I have no issue with loose and dusty. We live in SoCal. It's what we do. I kinna talked some about riding loose pumice during the Bandit segment. And yes indeed...I know your thoughts on Snow Summit. 😉
And yeah...I've heard some good things about Sundance. I think it's an updated version of what was the bottom section of the very first trail that I rode back when Snow Valley first opened the bike park.
Just found your channel a few days ago while visiting Palm Desert, and looking for beta. Your videos are well made and enjoyable content. I must have just missed you on Fri, because I was leaving SV around 5. This was my third park in the last week and a half, and it was just right for what I wanted, lift access trails. Wasn’t really interested in the big jump lines at Snow Summit, or the climb for your runs at Snow Park. The kitty litter left a little to be desired, but overall the park was a fun experience and has a ton of potential moving forward. One of the things I think people misjudge is if you want the most ridership at a new park, you start with accessible trails to the masses, not the small handful of big-hit bros that want big features and 30ft gaps. Snow summit has that and excels at it, and it would have been a bad business move to try and immediately compete with that. It was cool to see families renting bikes and riding downhill trails that for them were quite challenging, and quite frankly could be extremely challenging for the experienced rider if they got lazy, or over confident. I could easily see myself going back if I ever find myself back here in the summer with a bike.
Thanks Mike! Glad you dig the channel.
Definitely, the old model was to build the black trail first and then back into the blues and greens. But as you suggest, new bike parks would likely benefit from a different model. But I wouldn't count Skypark or Summit out. Skypark pedal ain't bad, and it's a unique experience worthy of a day. And Summit has a lot more than just Partywave & Westridge. Turtle, the soon-to-open Blue Steel, Going Green, and you have the trails off the backside like Fall Line and Pirates-Plumbers-Fern...basically, the trifecta on long weekend could be epic!
I agree about the general conditions, but I see that as both an issue (* they need way more water and berm maintenance!) and a feature. That's a big reason I try to ride there every week. I have become a much more agile rider learning on the loose stuff at Snow Valley than perfectly maintained trails at Skypark. Almost wish they kept the name "Bike Ranch", because that described the place better. That said, Ian appears to have a massive project underway with the new jump line taking shape on the east side. As it is, Greenhorn (which is awesome) is the ONLY purpose built "park trail" there. Most of the rest are "value added XC trails" . . . which in itself is pretty cool. Note: Sundance was open the week before you rode and really hasn't changed much other than they marked and cleaned up the little doubles on the bottom third (where the water break seems to have been this last week).
Value is relative. I wouldn't recommend most riders pay for a day there expecting it to be like other parks, but a season pass on rotation with Skypark is awesome if you live close enough to ride frequently. One of my favorite ways to spend a Saturday or Sunday is to ride Rim Nordic (XC across the street for $10), then put in a few runs at Snow Valley to give my legs a break.
Lots of people also ride Snow Valley for one simple reason: you never have to wait 1/2 an hour (rarely even a few seconds) for the lift!
Well said. I agree with "bike ranch" describing it better.
And yeah, learning to ride more pumice-y soil can really make you a better bike handler. I do think even with more maintenance, that aspect would still remain as it's the nature of that pumice...or whatever it is.
LOL...and yeah "value added XC trails". That's good.
I often hear about the 30 minute wait lines at Snow Summit. And I'm cool with people believing it's always like that. 😉
MTB ALAN 30 if we’re lucky but it’s usually more like 45 minutes.....not worth the drive folks just stay home.
Jesus Rodrigues yeah...stay home. More laps for me. 🤘🏽😁
Bike Ranch I LOVE that.
I kinda enjoyed the loose wild aspect and found itt more interesting. than sky park.
that jump line at snow valley is probably the best place to start if you're new jumps. Small and wide and you don't have to worry about traffic. Way easier than anything at summit or skypark.
Good point. They're a little weird because you have to brake to keep from landing to flat, but it's nice that you can session them without stress.
Thanks for the video. I would like to add that Snow Valley is a nice alternative to the redundancy of SS's Party wave, miracle mile, 10-ply back to back laps.
It’s definitely nice to have three bike parks in the area.
I'm heading up to the June lake area soon, and contemplating a day at Mammoth. Is the looseness of Snow Valley a good preview for the pumice at Mammoth? (I'm also curious about that "Dual Slalom" track at SV )
I haven't ridden Mammoth, but I've heard people say that Snow Valley's terrain is similar to Mammoth, but that Mammoth is it's own thing.
Sick Video. The kitty Litter in Snow Valley reminds me of the dirt in Mammoth but not as bad...
Thanks Eric! I've definitely heard Snow Valley is good training for Mammoth.
I bike in mammoth all the time and yeahhh the dirt I mean... sand gets pretty old
😆
@@mtb_alan Once you accept that there is a lot of sand you adapt. There are a ton of rad trails and you can't beat some of the views. If you haven't gone I would highly recommend it.
Seems kitty litter has different meanings in different places. In the rockies, it refers to decomposed granite which has the consistency of fine gravel, and is loose and sketchy to ride on, just like the ash at Mammoth or Snow Valley. I am intimately familiar with it as decomposed granite kitty litter is very common on trails in Northern Colorado and Southern Wyoming.
Thanks for the honest review. Is there a place at the bottom with some shade for non riders to hang out and wait for the riders in the family?
My pleasure. There were some outdoor picnic tables at the bottom, but I don't recall much shade down there. But if you have an easy-up, there is plenty of space in the parking lot.
Hey brother! It was me yelling "go mtb Alan" from the lift going up and my friends said "he will never hear you" lol
Then we met you just before the big jumps.
Oh LOL! I thought you were like "Hey Alan! Hey Alan!" and I wanted to look up and acknowledge but also didn't wanna crash.
Well...you kinna made it into the video. 😆
Thanks for sharing. I think Snow Valley is at a disadvantage because many of us have season passes to Summit and many people already love Skypark. Love you videos....
Thanks! Glad you dig the vids. Thanks for your support. 👊🏽 I think Snow Valley's real disadvantage is that Snow Summit has been in the game a long time and have a lot more experience and resources. And Skypark competes with both parks by not competing directly with them. They offer something different and have almost put themselves into a different category.
I think that's a fair assessment 🤷🏼♂️ although, I think lift service bike parks need a mix of rough and curated trails 🤘🏼
💯 That's how I see it. I'm not a good example of the kind of rider that is gonna love Snow Valley.
Rode past you and Tony while you were taking sunset selfies at the top of the dual slalom. I should have said hello. I agree with this assessment, dirt similar to Mammoth, some fun runs, especially when you pay $20!!
Hey! Say hi next time. 👋🏽 And yes...20 smacks for some lift-access trails in the late day sun is not so bad.
thanks for the honest review
Always!
I just had a devastating wreck there on jumpline on 6/11, it’s good to actually see the place because I have 2 memories of that day
Oh dang. Sorry to hear that. Are you talking about the jumps on Sidewinder?
The awkward tables next to the dual slalom, shattered c5&6 and broke a rib
Damn! Sorry to hear that. Hope you're healing up all right.
Best as I can
I think the biggest thing that you didn't mention that is going for Snow Valley is the crowds (or lack thereof). Getting the Friday twilight pass and getting in 5-7 runs in 2 hours hours is a much better experience than waiting in line at Snow Summit where 20 minutes in the lift line for one run can be just a brutal experience, IMO.
That's a good point. I am generally refraining from comparing the parks. They each have their own pros and cons, and where you decide to go really comes down to where you get the most smiles, right? 🤘🏽😁
Alan and Tony surprise to see you together los felicito amigos
looks so fun!
Yew!
I'm at Mammoth for the first time this week from So Cal. I was expecting Mammoth (especially since they are the owners of Snow Summit) to feel and be like a HUGE version of Snow Summit. Wow, I could not have been more wrong. It is, in my experience (and surprise!) much, much, more like a HUGE version of Snow Valley-- the trails themselves (and of course the ridiculous pumice kitty litter), the vibe, the available services on the actual mountain. (For example, there is literally 1 vending machine to buy bottles of water or gatorade at the main base) It's been completely different than what I had envisioned!
That’s a trip. I wonder if the services are as such due to COVID.
@@mtb_alan No doubt Covid has made things slightly leaner, but I do not get the impression it is a major change. (I was thinking the same thing and so have been looking at that angle). It's certainly been a different experience than I was expecting. Don;t get me wrong, it's still great. There are soo many trails to cover as the place is so big. But it is most certainly NOT a big version of Summit.
Ha! Good to know. Summit has a total summer scene. And when I see Mammoth vids, it always looks like a shut down ski resort that happens to have trails. 😆 I still gotta get up there and ride it though.
MTB ALAN that is exactly what it feels like
I was just there on Saturday, I liked it. I also like Snow Summit. Snow Valley definitely has some potential. I’m sure you saw the huge jump line they’re building. Anyways, love the vids.
It's a pretty fun place. I did see the jump line. Hard to miss. 😁 It'll be interesting to see how many people actually ride it.
Hey Allen just to give you a heads up they have been ridding at Snow Valley since the late 90's and used to have races up there so it is nothing new!! Yea it needs a lot of work but it is great to have another option! So just remember that Snow Summit back in the late 90's was real rough also!! But you new guys are just finding this out!! They also use to race at Mt Watermen and Mt High in case you did not know that!! So give it a chance and don't be a bike snob it will get better!! And make sure you tell Tony that he can go as fast as he wants up there and not have to worry about people walking on the trails!
Indeed. They have potential. Everybody agrees with that. I said it in 2018 when they first opened. It will be interesting to see what happens with that potential.
The current trails do feel pretty homegrown. And like I said, how you see that depends on what you want for your investment. Some people are really into it.
I do hope it gets better. Like I said in 2018, I don't see anything wrong with three bike parks all within striking distance of each other.
Thanks for the stickers brother
You're welcome!
Wow some parts of trail looked like there was snow with it's white power sand and tracks. Not a fan of the kitty litter stuff at all, eek. It looks the the other options in the area would be a lot more fun. I used to snowboard there all the time and loved it. Friday evening looked kind of fun. I wonder if rain would pack it in at all?
Ha! Yeah...the dust is so light colored. The nice thing is that it's so light-weight that it doesn't really stick to your bike. Although I wonder how much got into my pivots. Ya!
I started having fun in the kitty litter after I got a feel for it. And as for rain, I dunno. Seems like it just percolates right through.
It's a fun set of trails that you don't have to pedal up for. But yeah, it's hard to compete for season pass or ticket money with Skypark and Snow Summit on either side.
Just subscribed ! Would you recommend Snow Valley for somewhat of a beginner?
Thanks for subscribing! I think it might be a little tough for a beginner. I would suggest Skypark or the green and blue trails at Snow Summit.
@@mtb_alan Got you, thanks dude 😎
Alan between Snow Valley Greenhorn & Snow Summit Going Green, which do you recommend for children 7 & 10 yr olds?
Snow Summit Going Green,, Greenhorn, can be considered Blue in some parks
So, I'm reluctant to answer because Green Horn ends where all those other trails meet up, and the green trail from there is Sundance. That's the trail we couldn't ride because of the broken waterline. Just speaking about Green Horn, it's comparable in difficulty to Going Green. Going Green is more of a commitment. It's 3 miles whereas Green Horn + Sundance is 2 miles. Both options have a similar average grade.
The one thing that Going Green has over Green Horn is that the start of Going Green is right next to Turtle. 🤔
Man, im a regular there (twice a week), and you really missed out Sundance being closed. That's my favorite trail there by far, you can easily exceed 30mph and the little tech trail "spur" torwards the bottom is just a joy to ride
Yeah...I might have to go back. I do think I rode that lower part back when I hit rode Snow Valley a couple years ago. 🤔
I went 3 weeks ago for my first time and did Sundance 4 times. Came back this Friday and it was closed and I was so bummed out. I think Sundance being closed made a big difference but I still love Snow Valley
Your use of the word "Bronco" offends me
Denver fan?
Snow Valley has very few lift lines compared to Snow Summit, If I ride snow summit Thursday- Saturday, I can do 5-6 runs at Snow Valley on Sunday morning and still get home for dinner
That's great to hear. And I support people continuing to expect long lift lines at Snow Summit. ;)
Snow Valley just built an advanced jump line with some nice looking hits and big 30'+ gaps. Saw it, but skipped it because I was with my young son. But even if I had the chance, not sure I could handle it.
I think it's currently above my pay grade. 😆
this place looks rad! im racing there this weekend 😬
Yew! 🤘🏾
Need to go up there next summer, hello from Irvine
Snow Valley continues to develop!
I've been there a few times now and really enjoy it, but it's definitely different from summit and SkyPark. You can have a lot more laid back experience at snow valley, no long lift lines, nobody really trying to hit Strava times. Kill a couple beers in the parking lot and go goof around on decent trails with some buddies, without having to do any climbs, and it's not very expensive. I'll keep going back there but I understand people's complaints about the place.
Sounds like a good time, Nicholas. Different strokes, right? I love the higher trail speeds and intensity of Snow Summit, and I don't actually mind the lift lines. I end up seeing familiar faces and connect up with people for rad party trains.
And I had fun at Snow Valley. The pumice was fun to get the hang of, and really, it was just cool to ride some trails I'd never ridden before.
Oh...and the views there are always nice!
I went two weeks ago. Definitely prefer Snow Summit for the same price. Even with the line for the chairlift. Those damn loose berms got me. Did a total of eight runs.
The loose berms take some getting used to and can be fun once you figure them out. And yeah...I am kinna with you on the lines. I have never had an issue waiting in the Snow Summit lines (excluding opening and closing weekend).
How do your videos come out so crispy once uploaded to CZcams ? Whenever I upload I get bad quality.
I did the research and tried different techniques until I found what worked for me. 👊🏽
MTB ALAN I have tried different ways. I’m still not finding it 🤦🏽♂️. Haha 🤙🏽👊🏽
Snow Summit just...sucks. Yes, it is the ‘best” big mountain bike park in the region, but they don’t take care of their trails, the lift lines are pathetic, and...the employees always act like they hate you for visiting. SKYPARK couldn’t be more different in these regards: they take exceptional care of all their trails, they have NO LIFT lines, and their employees (exception being the people in the bike rental area) are fantastic and eager to serve! Can’t wait to try Snow Valley...whenever they are open. Every time I drive by the parking lot and mountain are empty and their sign advertising their hours give the impression that the “will be” open later in the future. I was shocked to see so many people riding in this video!
Nobody goes to Snow Summit anymore. It’s too crowded.
As much as I wanted to check Snow Valley out, from the looks of this I'd be happier saving the trip and just dropping into Aliso and Crystal Cove/Laguna.
That's a good point, Adam! It's a couple hour trip for you, right? And that's something to take into account. If only there were a lift for that friggin' Willow climb! 😆
I still think the Friday Twilight ticket is a good way to at least sample it...especially for people who are heading up the mountain for the weekend and can hit it on the way up.
@@mtb_alan Zactly. We need a Willow lift! I'm so close to Aliso that I can drop in from my house in 5 minutes. Speaking of . . . I'm off to hit Lynx!
Dont know if you spotted the new jumpline being built?..it looks rad..its off to the left when you go up the lift
It was hard to miss. 😆 With the consequences on some of those jumps, it looked more like a pro-line.
Do they accept ebikes? And if so can you pedal the up routes?
You can ride ebikes DOWN a few of the trails but you’re definitely not allowed to pedal up them. They’re all one-way. They have info on their site about which trails you can and ride on an ebike. There is a service road that goes around back that you can take up to the top as long as you stay off the single track. Ebikes aren’t allowed on those trails. But I don’t know if you’re allowed to ride the park trails without a pass best to check their website. 👍🏽
@@mtb_alan Thanks for the insight. And yes I do know you can't ride up the down trails. Some places I've been do have a alternate up access, some are fire roads types and some are designated up technical. Thanks again...
Ha! I figured, but I just wanted to be safe. I didn't wanna be responsible for someone trying to pedal up a down trail. 😆
People have been known to unknowingly pedal or hike up Going Green. That never turns out well.
But yeah...Snow Summit doesn't have climbing trails as part of the park, but like many parks, there are surrounding routes. I believe the safest (non-violation) route for an ebike would be up 2N10 aka Skyline Road. There's a little parking lot through the neighborhood just west of Bear Mountain resort. Probably the quickest ebike friendly route to the top of Summit.
But again, I dunno if you need a pass in order to ride the trails.
@@mtb_alan I surely would assume you do. No free rides...
Alan, what goggles do you run? I can see about sending you some new lenses.
Yo! That'd be rad! I run the Smith Squad.
MTB ALAN regular or Xl?
Ha...just saw that there's an XL. I have the regular. I currently run the everyday red mirror lens. 🤘🏽
Just ordered you one from Smith. DM me your address and it’s yours.
Yew!
I accidently rode by where the water line broke it scared the heck out me I had to cleared it or eat it.
Ha!
Crazy horse sound bad ass because i might get bucket off the saddle riding it lol or something 😅
Ha! That's actually why I call it Bronco in the video. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "bucking bronco". 😁
And that way, we don't have to use the name of a revered but ultimately subjugated and murdered Lakota leader. 👍🏽
I think the name Crazy Horse meshes well with the Western themed other trail names. Gun Smoke, Winchester, Bandit, Sundance, Fools Gold, and yea Crazy Horse. What’s wrong with that? It’s a well known Native name from the time. Maybe let’s not drink too much cool-aide. Anyway love the videos Bro. I hope I can one day rip like you guys.
I think you've described what the problem is. His name is being used to create a theme. A "western" theme. A rifle brand, a snake, a thief, a 50s western TV show, etc.
If we're gonna include Crazy Horse as part of this theme and be OK with it, we have to see if from the viewpoint of those that "tamed the west" and not include the part that includes the decimation and subjugation of untold numbers of indigenous people...including Crazy Horse himself.
As a note, I've reached out to Snow Valley to learn about the naming of their trails but haven't heard back yet.
MTB ALAN I don’t mean to make this an argument, I’ll just say that I don’t see a problem with it. It’s not like it was a slandering name. If you mean by just including his name because it relates to the time when these other elements were around is itself wrong then, we’ll agree to disagree.
Look. I just wanna call out that suggesting that someone should "not drink too much cool-aide" implies that that person is displaying a lack of awareness, self-reflection, and intelligence. I am gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're not trying to say that about me.
Well, I do think these things are worth discussing. 👍🏽
I don't think it's wrong to have a western theme. I don't think it's wrong to reference stuff from that time. But it can be done without using the name of an indigenous leader. There are so many things that could be referenced. That's why I think Bronco could be a rad name for that trail.
The problem is not just using his name. It's using his name in the same way that one might use a reference to a snake, a rifle, or a 50s TV show in an effort to create a theme. It treats Crazy Horse as a generic reference to "western times". In order to be OK with that, it requires us to ignore the terrible reality that indigenous people experienced at that time.
We wouldn't do that with a reference to a Jewish person from World War II. We wouldn't name trails Spitfire, Panzer, Normandy, and Anne Frank...at least I hope we wouldn't. Why would we do that with indigenous people from the "taming of the west"?
MTB ALAN I don’t mean to be rude, I apologize for my sarcasm. It wasn’t meant as an insult towards you personally, only that not everything in our country is rooted in malice or racism or something evil or wrong, to the contrary of what the media says.
you call out snow valley for calling a trail “crazy horse” which is the name of a native leader, but also a descriptive name that isn’t completely out of context when describing a mtb trail. also, in this video you call your friend “marinara”, which could be taken as a racial slur. either way, i don’t believe either to be inappropriate as i don’t think either were coming from a malicious place. hopefully this can help shed some light on the thought process and not cause any issues. with that being said, i love the channel and have learned a lot from your videos.
Glad you dig the channel!
I appreciate reading your thoughts and your desire to make things OK.
To be clear, I am not calling them out. I clarify that without any other context, it *seems* like appropriation.
Context is critical. Snow Valley never responded to my requests for clarification. So I can only look at the context provided, i.e. the other trail names. They are clearly themed on "the wild west" and include a riffle, snake, rancher term for a noob, and an old tv western...and then there's Crazy Horse. The trail names group Crazy Horse together with a set of objects, animals, and generalizations.
In that context, it seems like the use of Crazy Horse is a stand in for "generic native person". If it were a set of specific things or places related to indigenous people or specific historical aspects related to western expansion, maybe it'd be different.
Keep in mind that "the wild west" is the romanticizing of the American western expansion which involved the genocide and subjugation of indigenous peoples.
Naming that trail Crazy Horse is similar to if they'd named the trails Panzer, Howitzer, Spitfire, Private, and Anne Frank. It would treat that individual as if she were just a WW2 trope.
I do hope Snow Valley has a deeper reason, but so far, they've not made it clear.
And if we stretch and say it's just about a horse that's crazy, that's why I suggest "Bronco". Fits the trail. Fits the theme. And removes the ambiguity of their cultural awareness or lack thereof. 😃
As far as marinara? Have a look here: czcams.com/video/089emHIsIn4/video.html
😂
@@mtb_alan thanks for the response and reading through my input.
the outsider mtb video you referenced builds context on your remark (which to be clear, i never thought you were making a racial slur and assumed it was in jest), and that was my point. without context, lots of the things we say or do can seem to be malicious or self serving. but does it always require to be brought before your viewers in a public forum?
you say you weren’t calling them out, but by definition of the term, you were. you admit that you don’t know much of their background and/or intentions, but still made the decision to call it out to your viewers. given the unknowns, i just think its a more suitable conversation to have with the team at snow valley (which you said you have), and not with all your viewers. with todays climate of cancel culture and smear campaigns, even hinting something like this without any evidence could wreck a family owned businesses reputation.
for all we know, this trail was named after crazy horse (the historical figure) as a respectful nod. crazy horse was a warrior, and maybe the intent of naming the trail after him was to convey its danger and command respect of the riders looking to go down it. truth is, we don’t know. it is ambiguous, but that doesn’t always mean that it has to be pointed out (in front of the viewers) as a possible evil. like i did with the marinara comment, many harmless actions can be twisted into an offense if thats what you’re looking for.
much respect to you and all that you’ve built here in the mtb community. i appreciate the discourse.
You make good points. And they're things I thought and think about.
I take to heart that I could have kept the conversation out of the public eye. I started the conversation privately by reaching out to Snow Valley. To your point though, I could have kept reaching out to them privately. On the other hand, they are a business, and they are in the public eye. And in cases when an organization doesn't respond to private communication, they may respond to a public message. Of course, it seems they haven't taken note in either case. They also seem unaffected by my little video.
But either way, I am torn about this sort of thing.
It's interesting that you bring up today's social and political climate. It's part of why it struck me that they'd name a trail Crazy Horse next to other trail names like Sidewinder (a snake) and Winchester (a rifle brand). It seemed tone deaf to or even in spite of the current climate.
I am not looking for things to be offended by. But I'm also naturally curious. I tried to state my thoughts in the video in a neutral fashion. I did not dwell on it or admonish Snow Valley. I said a couple sentences about the trail name and allowed that they may have some credibility, but that "without any other context", it "seemed like" appropriation.
It has been interesting to me that this minor portion of the video has gotten so much attention. I've gotten hate DMs and comments (now removed) telling me what a terrible person I am. I've had entire groups tell me they're unfollowing me because of this. In essence, I've gotten hit with a fair dose of cancel culture for those 27 seconds.
I can only do what seems right to me.
I do get where you're coming from, and I also have a tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt. I also have spent decades holding my tongue about things like this that I notice. I may be wrong sometimes, but these days, I am more willing to speak and risk getting cancelled.
*17 seconds 😅
@@mtb_alan
i think this minor portion of the video has drawn so much attention because its in stark contrast to your normal content, and seems to be making soft allegations against the team at snow valley. if it isn’t worth taking attention to, why edit it into the video at all? it seems your point was to draw attention to it, but didn’t consider how strongly some folks would disagree. the amount of time spent on the subject is irrelevant.
initially you stated you weren’t calling them out, but then go on to say doing so might emit a response since they didn’t respond to you in private. to me, it comes off as a bully tactic. no ones obligated to explain themselves, especially if they’ve done nothing wrong. the burden of proof is on you.
truth is, you were the one to draw a line in the sand. you started the conversation. the fact that some of your followers decided to stop supporting you isn’t a big surprise as this is a hot button topic these days. yes snow valley is a public company, but you are also a public figure. by critiquing their judgement you’ve put yourself on the chopping block as well.
given the facts we have available, you calling them out is more direct and intentional than your theory on the naming of their trail. if someone disconnects from your movement because of this, its because they don’t like you for an explicit action you’ve taken. it isn’t comparable to an organization losing business over soft allegations based on an abstract interpretation of a trail name, that “seems” to be offensive (to you).
i agree that you should do what you think is right even if it turns out to be wrong. its how we learn. engaging with the world and learning from the response. but it seems you only considered how this would affect your reputation in the event that you’re wrong. i’m not saying you should censor yourself or refrain from speaking your mind, but since you’re giving your opinions on the matter, these are mine.
i don’t agree with your conclusion. it doesn’t seem to me that snow valley meant any harm here. it seems like the trail names you have pointed out all have one thing in common, and that is that they are nouns that demand reverence, which in my opinion gives crazy horse his due respect as a warrior.
Every time I hit gun smoke I go otb in the same spot like a quarter of the way down
😆 don’t die.
I’m still hoping to find Alan for a sticker in the future.
You just gotta find me on the trail. ;)
MTB ALAN I know! Still waiting for my arm to heal. A few more weeks until I can start rehab.
Hang in there! Get them squats going if you haven't already.
It’s so sandy but so fun
I did enjoy getting loose!
In my head the looseness will make me a better rider 😅
Take away party wave and west ridge and I’ll take snow valley any day.
Oh dang. Don’t forget Miracle Mile. 😉 Partywave to Miracle. Surf and Turf baby!
My life is rad 😂
Heck yeah!
This park is a baby version of mammoth, & more affordable with no wait?... but I still love the content!
It's less for less! And that's not a bad thing. 🤘🏽😄
Curious, what’s your nationality?
My nationality? I'm have an American citizenship, so I guess my nationality is American. 😉
Ethnicity? Mad props for calling out SV on the crazy horse name. Im part native and I appreciate you respecting that culture.
Thanks Ian! Glad you appreciated that. Least I can do.
LOL...k. My ethnicity:
My mother is East Bengali, and my father is Garo. Garo people are mostly in northeast India or north Bangladesh but, culturally and ethnically, are more similar to people from Tibet or Burma.
@@mtb_alan I had a feeling it was India, but wouldn't be surprised if you said you were a bit Hispanic. Which I am also. I just got my first mtb, as a bmxer I am still learning. Hope I'll be able to ride with you soon.
Stoked for you on your first MTB.
But I'm not from India. 😉 I am from Bangladesh.
They named a trail after Winchester, why not Crazy Horse?
I genuinely ask this as a question and do not meant it as a statement: Please describe how those two are equivalent?
@@mtb_alan One was named after a famous leader who fought against tyranny in the name of his people. The other has the blood of thousands of innocents on his hands. Try to figure out which is which.
Are you thinking of Winchester as in the rifle?
Also, I hope to have an open and honest conversation here. Let's refrain from making this about "winning the conversation". As such, let's put aside clever tests and instead keep it as straight forward as possible. These conversations are complex enough as it is.
@@mtb_alan Yes. Specifically Oliver and William Winchester (of the Winchester Mystery Mansion). A "Winchester" is not a type of rifle (lever action). I dunno man, but I think just because they use the name Crazy Horse on a trail doesn't mean its cultural appropriation. If it was decorated with Native American "trinkets" then, yeah I'd be mad. But its the guy's name...
Edit: Now that I think about it, they decorate the place with garden gnomes!
I mean it looks fun, and I'm not trying to be a snob here, but if I'm paying a annual membership for a " bike park " that shit better be groomed lol. I love summit so much but dam some areas are like really? And well skypark is the best one grooming wise. The jumps are the arent the biggest but you know what I mean. They have comet which is their gnar trail and love the fact they dont touch it, they let it be raw love it. But you are right some people like that on all trails. But im good lol, I have 4 kids and a good career to look after, I rather eat shit on a 30 plus foot gap then flying down a mountain into kitty litter and wiping out hard, like that one dude last week there broke his neck. And trust me, he can ride ! But I will try a Friday one day, maybe skypark in the am and catch that 4 to 7pm there. Other than that great riding and good review alan!!!
Thanks! I like getting options at a bike park. Some buffed out berms and clean lips for a couple runs. Then some chunk and gnar. Actually one of my favorite combos is Partywave to Miracle. Surf n Turf baby!
@@mtb_alan exactly.... me too party wave to miracle mile lol best of both worlds
I'm only angry because I CAN'T make it to Snow Valley!
Ha! Dang...what's keepin' ya?
MTB ALAN living in Bay Area and COVID.
i take real dabs!!!!!! then shred
ZERO DABS!
You're bothered by "Crazy Horse" as a trail name? Come on Alan... Don't be that guy.
I’m that guy who is conscious and willing to think about and call out the stuff others are unaware of and/or unwilling to think about. I don’t have to be nice but I can be considerate.
@@mtb_alan Alan; Just because Crazy Horse was the name of a native American, utilizing the title does not instantly make it cultural appropriation or racist. Additionally, have you confirmed that they didn't simply name the trail in reference to an actual "crazy" horse running through the hills or something? Could also be named Crazy Horse as an homage to the man for all we know.
Should I no longer celebrate holidays like Cinco De Mayo or St. Patrick's day as I am not Mexican or Irish?
I'm not looking to start an argument by any means, I enjoy your content. I just think it's unnecessary to inject social justice into an activity that many of us use as an escape. Without any type of backstory behind the naming of the trail, it doesn't seem right to call it out as you did.
Either way, we can agree to disagree. I still enjoy your content regardless. Hope your day is going well 🤙
@@mtb_alan I'm glad you're that guy.
Should you participate in the cultures of others? Yes.
Is that the same as cultural appropriation? No.
In context with the other trail names, that trail just being a reference to "a crazy horse" and not a reference to Crazy Horse is highly unlikely.
I hear the desire to use MTB as an escape. That's not my approach. It's not an escape route but a path toward being a better human. I've learned to be more patient, accepting, and considerate to my fellow mountain bikers and fellow trail users. And I let that affect other parts of my life.
I warn against compartmentalizing these things. I've let racist comments go with fellow MTBers, because "we are just riding bikes".
I've decided to no longer remain silent. Some viewers are uncomfortable with this. And believe me, it's 500% more uncomfortable for me to put it out there and receive all the arguments against speaking up.
It's funny to me that people are bothered by the thought of social justice. But if it makes anybody uncomfortable...just like if a feature on the trail makes you uncomfortable...that discomfort may be just the thing.
Hope that makes sense. 🙂
@@mtb_alan My main point is that it's a slippery slope. Next thing you know we're renaming Sequoia trees as they are named after a native American Indian - and in that case it was a name given in honor of a Cherokee Indian by the name of Sequoyah.
While I don't believe we will come to an accord on this issue, I better understand your perspective. See you on the trails 👍
Dude….you had me until cultural appropriation.
What isn't cultural appropriation? I mean, from clothing style, muttonchops, your name, to the bicycle in general, every bit of that started with a different culture. Imagine if Europeans started calling non-Europeans out for dressing like them or using their words...like, "derailleur" for example.
I enjoy your videos, thanks.
I think you are unclear on the meaning of the term.
@@mtb_alan I respectfully request that you fill me in on what you believe that term means.
It would benefit you to do the research and make it less about what I think it means and more about the established meaning of the term. We must each take on the responsibility of educating ourselves. ✊🏾
@@mtb_alan That would certainly be of benefit to any of us. The thing is, you believe you are in possession of knowledge/understanding I don't have, so instead of posting an unsubstantiated opinion, then assuming I haven't done at least the research you have, it's incumbent on you to support your position, given you are posting it in a public venue. Or just keep doubling down on not explaining your thought process, which unfortunately makes it seem as if your position may not be based on much more than emotion. I was actually very interested in hearing your perspective, I might have even learned something from it. I'll step out now, but in case you think this is a personal attack on you, it's not, I really was interested in how you got to that conclusion, but I will admit that my patience is running thin for statements that look good in social media but don't always hold up to critical analysis. Either way, Crazy Horse was a rare man and leader and I appreciate the opportunity your video (and that trail) has given me to reconsider his life. If you haven't read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, I highly recommend it.
Let's back it up and refrain from making assumptions about each other's beliefs or character. If you want to go ad hominen, then we can't really get anywhere.
To review, you didn't ask how I came to my conclusion. You asked me what I "believe that term means". I maintain that the established meaning is the important bit.
And to be clear, my conclusion is one with a caveat. I have given Snow Valley the benefit of the doubt. Please review the video and note that I state that it feels like cultural appropriation "without any other context". As a note, I reached out to Snow Valley and the trail builder for comment when this video came out and have yet to get a response.
By the way, have a scan through the rest of this comment thread if you want to see my other responses.
And if you're impatient with social justice signaling on social media, that's understandable. As with much of social media, it takes little effort to post and repost. If you're worn thin by the a lack of critical thought in the world, believe me, we have that in common.
But please don't drop your frustration and impatience into my lap and try to set me up in the image of what you're mad at. We're both better than that.
I no white folks who have owned a few crazy horses as well so 🤔
I think we'd be hard pressed to say this isn't a reference to Crazy Horse.
@@mtb_alan what isn't offensive in 2020 stay safe
Well, being aware and willing to hear where others are coming from isn’t offensive.
Jesuschrist, can't name anything without offending somebody or gettiing some youtuber's panties up in a bunch. goddamn! 🤣
First off, it's one out of eight trail names, so you can name a lot of things without my underwear being affected. Secondly, I don't see anything wrong with being historically aware and sensitive to a genocide enacted on America's indigenous people which was then followed by using the images and names of those people without consideration of their culture or history. Thirdly, I think I stated my case pretty clearly and calmly and cast no blame but left it on the table that Snow Valley may have done their due diligence. If they have connections to the Lakota, I would love to know. Lastly, there's nothing wrong with being bothered by that which is unjust (whether or not intentional), and if I'm gonna offend someone by being offended, I'd rather do so while standing on the right side of anti-racism.
Ya just lost me with “cultural appropriation “
Sometimes I move too fast for people to keep up.
Nice review of the park. Didnt care about the whole "cultural appropriation" bit. Most times when things are appropriated, it is usually because those things are good. The united states is a melting pot of different cultures. One race or group shouldn't be the only one to enjoy a custom because they "originated" it. If that were the case we wouldnt have all of the awesome things we have like certain foods and other customs. I could see if something were to be done in a mocking way but the mtb course is clearly not it. I mean riding down that trail could literally feel like you were riding a crazy horse. just because it takes on the same name as a native american name doesn't make it a bad thing. Take the redskins football team name that got canceled. The name was originally in honor of native american warriors. More woke idiots were upset by it than actual native americans were. That was a little too WOKE for me. Could have done without it. Almost stopped watching the video altogether.
I said a couple sentences about it and left the possibility that it’s not cultural appropriation. I would ask why the mere mention of the possibility of cultural is a trigger? And wouldn’t it be a kind version of “woke” to be incensed enough to feel the need to write a lengthy response with a proclamation of judgment?
@@mtb_alan I wouldn't consider my response as a form of "wokeness", but more of common sense. What drove me to write such a lengthy response? Mtb is an outlet of enjoyment for me along with other things. It's a means of escaping the daily nonsense. I'm sick of the pervasiveness of woke culture because it is everywhere. Politics, sports, schools, tv, cartoons etc. To see it creep into something that i never thought it would irritated me. I honestly didn't see the point of even mentioning it, even if you did leave it open ended. May I ask why it was mentioned at all?
I get where you're coming from with "woke" culture if you mean how people want to shut other people down for voicing unpopular views...or views that rub just them wrong. I see this happen more often then not with misrepresentations and misunderstandings of views. I think though that it's helpful to not get stuck on the term "woke".
Whatever we call it, fellow citizens are coming at each other for having and expression different views...or even just for thinking someone has a different view. And I think mutual respect is better. Something I appreciate in your responses.
I don't see MTB as a way to escape. I see it as a way to connect. As such, I see MTB as a way to increase diversity and awareness in the outdoor space. But...these are my views. This is where I come from.
Why did I mention it at all? Before I answer, please know that I'm not trying to convince you or change your mind. I'm just telling you my thoughts in order to answer the question. :)
It stuck out to me and made me wonder if Snow Valley had a connection with an indigenous group. Personally, I think that would be pretty cool if that was the impetus behind the naming. I reached out to them a few times but never got any response. So all I had to go on was the broader context of the names used for the other trails. And keep in mind that context is always important.
The context is that the trail names fit a "western" theme. The other names of the trail are a snake, a western term for a noob, a thief, and Sundance is either a reference to the film character or a sacred Lakota ritual. I'm not sure on that one, and that's why I left that out of the discussion. So, in that context, it seemed a bit off-handed and not intended to pay homage to such a figure of the indigenous community.
In that context, it was akin to having an "Indian" trope in a western movie. Maybe another way of looking at it would be to have a trail system with names like this: Panzer, Stuka, Spitfire, Anne Frank.
I hope that makes sense.
@@mtb_alan I do appreciate the response. Definitely think people are offended too easily nowadays. The term cultural appropriation typically is used nowadays with a negative view. Example:a white person with dreads is seen as culturally appropriating ethnic hair styles and is not "allowed" to do so. Imo mimicking or copying is most often done not in a negative way but out of appreciation or admiration. To have pride in one's culture is important but too much pride can be divisive. Things that are appropriated are often because they are good things., things that are good and make our country a special place. Just tired of the cancel culture we often see because a minority of people get offended by something that was not meant to be offensive. We've got to many "victims" nowadays.
I agree with some of what you say. What I find interesting is that there is a whole segment of people who call out others for being "woke" and for instituting "cancel culture" while participating in the same behavior by a different name. Had someone comment that Santa Cruz Bicycles should go out of business because they posted an article about Eliot Jackson's mom and their Grow Cycling Foundation. Basically wanting to cancel Santa Cruz for being "too woke".
As a note, it's useful to distinguish between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. Are dreads on a "white" person SOMETIMES cultural appropriation? Yes. Of course. But it's not our jobs to demonize someone for doing it.
It's funny how many times people have tried to cancel me for being "woke". It's funny how it plays out. It's "woke" if it's the enemy. "Informed" if it's a friend. "Cancel culture" if it's the enemy. "Justice" if it's a friend.
Except none of us are really enemies. And I know most of us would stop to help a fellow rider fix a flat on the trailside regardless of politics and philosophies.
Come on Alan. Leave the liberal wokeness home.
Are you saying conservatism is staying asleep?
Liked your video until you went social justice PC opining. I really don’t care what they name the trail. Keep it about bikes.
What I care about is not be based on what someone else does not care about.
Woke mountain biker
🙏🏾