Why Did Harley-Davidson Change The Proven Gear Driven Cam Design?!
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- For years Harley-Davidson had success with the gear driven cam design of the Evo engine, but for the Twin Cam they went with chains. The switch to chain driven cams on the Twin Cam led many of us to go out on our own and convert to gear drives. Even the Sportster still has gear driven cams to this day. So why didn't Harley-Davidson just put gear driven cams in the Twin Cam to begin with? I wish the answer was a simple one but many factors are at work with Harley-Davidson going with a chain drive system. These same factors and issues with the Twin Cam engine are what led us to the single cam, silent chain driven design of the Milwaukee 8.
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Do think Harley-Davidson made the switch to cam chains for cost savings or they knew about potential pressed crank issues?
Honestly I think it was both.
Let's be honest to 9 out of 10 times by the time the crank went the warranty was up. Cost cutting as Harley can be they are equally as shrewd with there down the road thinking.
You might be giving the engineers more credit than they deserve. The MoCo has always been evolutionary. Every time they try to get revolutionary, the spend 3 to 5 years chasing engineering deficiencies that are mostly caused by government standard enforcement and of course the constant cost corner cuts from the bean counters. I believe it is about time the MoCo addresses the crank pin issue. These giant cubic inch motors are hard on the crank. Not to mention the ridiculous allowable runout tolerance. No excuse not to be welded or at least have a better plug in the pin. Everything else works off the crank, if it’s not right,.... Damn engineers and bean counters....
@@2trdmustanggtfordf1hdsgsfa80 yeah, basically they throw it out there and then deal with what comes up. But I can say my 16 street glide is a great runner.
It's simple, cost savings, if you've ever built Harley engines you'd know that's it, period.
With the gear drive there's multiple size gears that can be used to obtain the correct fit, not enough clearance and the gears will burn up, too much clearance and they're noisy, wherein a little loose and noisy won't hurt anything if it is noisy then it won't pass the federal noise standards, this is an issue that the factory has to deal with that the aftermarket doesn't, so at the factory they had a lot of fitting to get "just the right ones" in.
Sportster's switched to the "high contact" tooth design right around the time the big twins went to chain drive for the same reason, prior to that there was something like 7 different gear sizes on Sportster cams that could be pressed on each cam, they had to go to great lengths at the factory to get the proper set up in each engine, by switching to the high contact style teeth on the gears it eliminated that problem and made mass production of the Sportster engines easier, that's why Red Shift always offered their Sportster cams as just sticks without the gears, you could either send your original factory cams to them to have the gears pressed on or do it yourself if you have the special fixture to index the gears, Red Shift also sells their cams with gears but always recommend using the original gear set that came in the engine if possible because nobody has the variety of gear sizes to fit them as precisely as the factory could back when they did it that way.
Like the tappet holes being machined directly into the cases eliminating separate lifter blocks, no transmission trap door on the 2004 up Sportster's, and pressed together flywheels it's all about cutting down on manufacturing costs.
And don't ever bother listening to Harley Davidson when they tell you why they do something because they'll NEVER tell the truth.
That being said the chain drive isn't the nightmare that people have made it out to be, the aftermarket community knew that people would recoil back from any kind of major change like that and invented 95% of the supposed issues with the chain drive so they could sell gear drive conversion kits, I've been working on them for a living for over 30 years including owning my own shop and I've yet to see one go bad that was properly maintained by changing the shoes at the recommended intervals, but I've had 3 customers bring me engines that they had somebody install gear drive conversions that broke, that makes it chain drive failures 0, gear drive conversion failures 3.
Here's why the aftermarket knew everyone would recoil back from the new chain drive system;
Question, How many Panhead rider's does it take to change a lightbulb?
Answer, 5, 1 to change the bulb and the other 4 to stand around and talk about how much better the old bulb was, (alternate answer: "It doesn't matter how many there are they won't change it"), that jokes been around long before the Twin Cam but it gives you an idea of the mentality that the aftermarket knows they can play to.
Don't forget, every car that all of you are driving around in has a chain drive set of overhead cams, if they were that prone to failure the shoulder's of highway's would be lined with broken down cars, get it?
It’s not noise, it’s music. That’s part of the fun of owning a Harley Davidson. 👍👍❤️
I would have to agree there!
Bought my evolution sportster new in 1993. 108,000 miles later it still runs strong and perfect. I wouldn't have any other Harley engine. I've ridden that 883 all day at 80 to over 100mph on the 4,000 mile round trip to Sturgis in brutal summer heat on 3 occasions. No problem.
The Sportster Evo is the best engine Harley has ever built. At least in my opinion.
Harley does everything on the cheap and markets it like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
The sliced bread people will be glad to know that!
yeah and price gouging their sht parts just because of the name.
Engineering and Hardly Dependable shouldn't even be in the same paragraph.......they had to quiet the down to keep commiefornia happy you know the people who caused them to go with the bullshit water cooled exhaust valves so they could meet C.A.R.B. standards. Stick a folk in HD they're done now they wanna cater to a higher end mkt. Per new CEO they don't need " biker trash "
Money . Thanks I'll spend my cash on a good motorcycle
Why does Harley have so many issues with their own design and engineering while Honda,Yamaha, Kawasaki can all build a more reliable bike with the same engineering ? You would think they could figure it out since they've been building them since 1903 !
@@mauricehess537 sticking with the v twin design has its problems..funny the flathead side valve they made right up to the 80s because they had been so reliable as a workhorse engine design. but Harley made a LOT of mistakes and bad engineering decisions alas a trying to capture it's original mystique... they did not simply improve a good design they kept redisighning it and letting Porsche do one even that failed
the 80" evolution is still my favorite big twin engine great reliability in stock form, if modded with cams and headwork just install fresh tappets in every 25-30k miles and let it eat.
Exactly... HD went to chains, because of the cheaper crank. The runout on the newer, 'cheaper,' cranks were already showing runouts that made gear drives a dicey challenge.
So, why didn't HD ever design a chain tensioner, that had a 'softer spring,' on the tensioner, or just replace the 'shoe,' with an idler sprocket? An idler sprocket would just turn with the chain, hold the slack in place while resisting wear by many factors, over the plastic tensioner shoe.
If the engines can be run without the tensioners, then why bother with the risk of them killing the engine when they come apart?
Idler sprocket is a good idea. I should’ve tried to make a different tensioner arm with a sprocket on it instead of dropping all that coin on a new cam plate
Idler sprocket is a great idea
Everything Harley-Davidson does is backwards and on the cheap, I’m a retired Harley-Davidson mechanic for the presidential motors in Washington DC and they sent me to Harley-Davidson school twice a year and that’s an eye opener, the engineers should have been fired along time ago, and now they lost out on the presidential motor contracts BMW just took it, what a lost just like I said backwards, maybe someone will take over and do the right thing
HD school? You mean MMI? Thats the authorised school either the florida campus or here in Phx. I went through MMI back in 1994 . Have taken update classes since. The school was fine until it merged with UTI. Now its just a fast track get students in and out and they dont teach real skills.
Interesting that you mentioned BMW. Surprisingly, these two companies have actually quite a few things in common: they started around 100 years ago, and they built air-cooled, long-stroked push rod twins. But over the decades BMW worked hard on thousands of improvements, and by the 80s their boxers were powerful, smooth and known for their reliability, while HDs were known for the opposite: no power, shaking like a paint-mixer and prone to break down.
I'm not an expert but I believe it all comes down to one big factor, which is that German engineers are just better at what they do than American engineers. It's the same with cars, a Porsche with a flat six makes the same amount of hp and lasts twice as long as an American V8 twice the size.
I worked a summer job in the parts department of a local Buick dealership in 1971. That's where a GM factory rep explained the concept of planned obsolescence to a 16 year old me. I never forgot it.
I’m here in New Mexico and the first time the Santa Fe dealer sold me a bike it didn’t have any oil in it.
@@philliptorres3725 wow so much for dealer prep huh?
To clarify, the gear driven single cam big twin.motor design originated in the 30's with the Knucklehead. Then the Pan and Shovel and finally the Evo. All incrementally better and stronger than the previous design.
As soon as i saw the HD service manual for the new TC, and saw the crank/rods chapter was 1 page instead.of the usual dozens, i knew it was over, and the accountants had won over the engineers.
And this was 21 years ago.
On the Sportsters doing away with the trapdoor in 05 was just an insane criminal offence, but saved the Co. a dollar fifty ($1.50) on.machining/assy costs.
Idiots.
In answer to the original question of this very good video;
2 words,
Greed and money.
If you can quieten down a 4 cam, 4 gear Sporty case to pass EPA tests, you can damn well engineer a quiet single gear big twin case.
Perfect!
I have a 92 Fxstc and a 2020 Road Glide they engineered the Harley out of the M8. I have owned a 96 & 06 ultra . both of those bike where slower and not as comfortable as my 2020. I would take either one over my road glide. I love my 92 that is what a Harley should be . I am going to get an old shovel head as a retirement project
Shovels are absolutely timeless!
My brother is one who ditched the cam chain tensioner. Coming up on 20000 miles since removed.
I upgraded the tensioner on mine with an after market pad. His is a tad bit louder than mine is but hasn't had any trouble. And He rides that thing pretty hard.
That's why I still have my '84 shovelhead wide glide. I wouldn't trade it for a truckload of the new Harleys!
AMEN MAN!
Right on! Those bikes have soul the new ones lack.
O69. I have a 98 wide glide .Have had it 16 years .So reliable.Carb version.
i grew up on a big dairy farm in vermont riding my dads 49 panhead with side car and in 1953 he bought an indian chief,i like your videos,they keep me up what harley is doing
That's awesome! The last year of the Indian for a long time! I appreciate you watching and supporting the channel!
I love my 99 EVO carbed Softail Custom. Not as quick as the new ones, but I am 80 years old and do a lot of back road riding around where I live. Who needs all that power when you are just cruising watching the sun glint off the head light and listening to the great sound of that 2 cylinder radial engine.
My personal opinion is the EVO engine is the best of the bunch. They only had one problem that was easily fixed in your own garage. The inner cam bearing. I changed mine out in a day on the garage floor at 23:000 miles. It just turned over 60,000 with no problems. No oil leaks because I warm it up before I ride. All in all a great motor. I did replace the push rods with Harley adjustable push rods so I did not have to take off the rocker box covers.
I started with a 1942 "45" flat head when I was 14 back in 1955. Rode and 84 Iron head Sporty for 23 years. The EVO makes me smile. Takes about 10 minutes to change carburetor jets if you change the exhaust.
I have friends who have sold their TWIN CAMS and purchased EVO's. Something about the EVO engine that you can not get with any other Harley engine. My opinion. Everyone has one.
Evo is a solid platform, one the best engines Harley ever made in my opinion!
Hearing GixerFoo talk about why the Twin Cam came out makes me even more happier that I have an Evo on my Electra Glide.
You made a couple points why I'm still riding my 2002 RKC. Last good year before HD starting going cheap on some critical engine components. Changed my cam chain tensioners for the hydraulic tensioners 25K ago. 77K miles on the clock and the bike still looks and runs like the day I drove it off the lot.
Good to know....I can blame the EPA for me having to install S&S gear drives into my three twin cam Harleys.
I'm so glad I got rid of my Twin Cam, never gave me any trouble, but I know it was going to start costing me money.
If they had to change the EVO to chain because of noise then how come the Sportster still uses gears and has more up them?
I would love to hear a Harley-Davidson engineer answer that question. Maybe switching to chain in the Sportster was too complicated. Not worth it.
Because bigger engines make more noise, they didn’t need to make the sportster quieter , simple as.
@@HarleyFurgesson Not necessarily. I've been around 883 sportsters and 1200 Sportsters and they don't sound any different in stock form with stock mufflers.
Going from 1340 to 1450 is even less of a difference than 883 to 1200.
The tooling and design was established with the EVO. EVOs used to be the HD standard. When the 88 came around they changed things. EVO was a comeback engine in favor of reliability.
They got back and then had to keep parts and service running
84 softy, 95 bad boy, and a 99 night train here and let me tell I will never ride a twin scam or m bate. One cam and a carburetor that's a harley. Just my 2 cents.
You've got some nice bikes! The Bad Boy was ahead of it's time, Night Trains are hard find these days.
I would hang into those, Evo engines are gaining in popularity.
Bad boy. Lol 😆
I'll stick with my shovel. Had it for 23 years no leaks not loud unless I want it to be never left me hanging. I know everyone will call BS but it will out run a 88 any day of the week it even made a few 103's look silly
If you watch any Kevin Baxter videos he made one not long ago and he talks about a guy arguing with him about being able to delete the cam chain tensioner or tensioners and he challenges the guy to put a timing light on the cam gear with and without the tensioner installed and see how the gear timing jumps around with the tensioner removed. I'm not sure if Kevin has actually tried the challenge himself but according to him it's a big no no. I will not be removing the tensioners in ours.
I wouldn’t argue with him about anything engine related.
Yeah especially if you ride the bike hard or just a lot. That chain is gonna stretch and jump around and potentially skip teeth
That's exactly why I won't do it myself or to anyone else's bike. Some people will swear by it but it's there for a reason. I may have to get one of my buddies that swears by it and check his timing out.
Everybody complained about AMF Harleys but my 79 Superglide 80 inch is still running after 103,000 miles and not even a lifter click. And a lemon year at that (so they say.) My 73 Sportster had 96,000 miles when a Harley dealer told a friend of mine, who bought it from me, that the noise he heard was a rod knock but it was a cam bearing problem. Could have been fixed by just removing the cam cover. Also a lemon year (so they say). Since these stupid twin cams have had a long history of all that trouble why buy them? Look for a shovelhead or early blockhead.
You know that's the thing were some damn good shovels and iron heads out there like that. They just got overshadowed by the ones that failed and thay became public opinion.
Hey ! Gear drives go way back to the beginning of HD ! I have installed a bunch of S & S geardrives on TC motors & very few have made gear whine & only a couple have required a + or - gear to be used if I can't just slip on the pinion gear I order up a minus pinion gear an it's fixed however if the crank shaft turns out of true it will break teeth off the pinion gear ! I personally like the whine that you really only hear at idle . My vote says they went to chains for cost savings to the company & allows the dealers to make more money !
That sounds spot on considering a lot of the engineering we see in Harley motors!
To make a fortune repairing that stupid twin cams. I had two a 01 FLSTRIC and a 02 FLSTC but after working on a few guys twin cams I sold both mine and bought a 98 FLSTF. I have it and my 72 FLH I have had for 31 years. For my money the Shovelhead was the best motors Harley even made.
The best way to deal with whine would be to put an end to the epa.
Agreed!
Nailed it!!!
Cause it lasts forever. My pinion gear just went out after 20yrs. Have a 98 fxdl. Engines bulletproof. The new harleys are made to break to keep money pouring in for repairs.
It's hard to complain about 20 years before a failure!
I think the hydraulic tensioners are pretty reliable. I've heard plenty of stories of people running the stock shoes up to 100k miles and still having material left. I certainly wouldn't run them that long haha, but I think I'll be changing to gears anyway at some point (probably my first oil change after 50k miles) if only because it's just something to do lol. The mechanical sounds the gears make are a nice plus too, of course.
I would really like if you did a video further explaining running without the cam tensioners in a Harley, sounds very interesting.
Yes, I'd like to see that too
I know they will run without the chain tensioner the one bike I put the hydraulic tensioner in the old shoe on the tensioner was in the bottom of the chain tensioner cover and nothing was touching the chain. The bike started and ran so that is true. I can't say it is a good idea I don't have information to the contrary.
@@lisar3006 up till now didn't even consider it as an idea, definitely wanna check out some videos on this.
Not a bad idea all, the runout really tells the story of what's going on with your crankshaft.
@@GixxerFoo if you can do a video about removing the cam tensioners on a Harley and any information on how the running is affected that would be awesome. You're videos are very helpful.
I will never get rid of my evo
They are going up in value!
You and me both brother!🤘
The reality is it will become someone else's Harley when you die.🤔
I've had two twin cams since my last evo. Im currently on a Milwaukee 8 bike. The evo was probably the most reliable HD motor ever produced. Would i go back from what I ride today.... not a chance in hell. Ride what you like but know that each motor design has its merits.
I bought my 97 road King new. The twinkie came out. I was almost stupid enough to trade my Evo. Praise God I didn't
I love the sound of my gear cams. I was actually surprised at how many people notice the gear noise, Be'ns it's stock and all. LoL
Thanks for the informative video. Key reason why I didn't opt for the gear drive on my 03 TC88. Didn't want to chance having lots of runout. Anyways, bought a TC /M8 pinion runout tool after the fact... mainly to check my M8 before upgrading the cam plate and oil pump. Maybe when I have to check the tensioners I check the 88 runout...
Great vlog/content! The tensioners on my 07 FLTR stock 96 were checked at 80K; deemed fine. Were changed at 160K. Could have gone another 40K according to the mechanic. Keep it coming! Thanks
Local dealer tried to sell me their first twin cam that arrived from HD. The dealer took that same bike to the dyno and the cam case blew up. I kept my evo for 30 years and just recently purchased a M8. Hay, nobody's perfect.
Yeah the first twin cams had a few issues to say the least lol. M8 had some issues in the beginning too, which is to be expected first year. I would of kept the Evo and skipped the Twin Cam at that time too. The late 103 Twin Cams I feel like they finally got it right there.
I have a Twinkie 88. I checked my original spring cam tensioners at 50k. I could have gotten maybe another 10k out of them. I researched it. Harley guarantees the hydraulic tensioners for 80k or at least my dealership did. One advantage I found with the chain driven cams is that it gets rid of the gear run-out problem. So when comparing the price for the hydro chain cams and the gear ones, I choose the hydraulic ones.
Mine have 56k on the original, glad I got after it shortly after I bought the bike. I would not have wanted to run it much longer.
I bought a new 02 Dyna. Right off the git go i kept hearing lifter noise coming and going. Went to the dealer. Response was they didnt hear anything. Harley wasnt paying for exploratory surgery. The tech said just out some exhaust on it. The warranty was against this idea. So that winter I tore it down. Harley doesnt warranty stuff is how I felt. Talked with a lit of other bikers having issues with TC 88 and basically same reaction from harley. Checked the run out on the pinion. .001 ok. 585 s&s gear drive cams , lifters, and the rest. Keith Black pistons. Turned her into a 95”. She ran great after breaking her in. No more lifters making noise. Third gear roll on and the back tire would start spinning. Great ride. Harleys are a love and hate relationship. S&S always fixes them. They love them too. One of many over the years. The only new one. Never again. Best to just build one, costs the same.
sorry, what do you mean by s+s always fixes them?...looking to learn what I can about these engines before buying a Harley! thanks, mike
@@spongeyspongey5983 the list is long. Just bit a good used one that has had updates. Not just horsepower upgrades. The Evo was one of the best things to come out of harley. The aftermarket has certainly created a ton of things for it. They can certainly run with the best if them. Most bike builders still use them.
@@westcoast3595 thank you... the more I hear and watch, the more questions I have ha! thanks for your time! mike
S&S improves upon a lot of Harley's parts.
@@GixxerFoo thank you.. I'm getting it!
Excellent information! I've replaced cam chain tensioners on a twin cam at 80,000 miles! I had no idea that you could just leave the tensioners out! Cool!
Very good informative video.
As a classic British bike owner I'm very forgiving of a m.c. engine that has some engineering faults, We used to say " if you could take the best features from all the different brit makes and put them on one motorcycle that would be a great motorcycle".
A 60's Norton Atlas is a good one with a primary belt drive conversion its rock solid runner . Incidentally it has chain driven cam and magneto the cam has a steel slipper tensioner on the cam chain, never any problems with that.
I've heard that same saying about the British bikes! I sure with someone would resurrect BSA, that would awesome to see that brand come back!
Hi from uk I brought over a 95 evo from USA about 3 years ago I love it 👍👍👍👍
I have an 07 fxdc SuperGlide 💀 96 in ...It has the hydraulic cam chain tensioner ...I like my bike ❤️ ...it's got tons on endurance and is nimble in cross traffic . .
Had two HD’s, Electra glides. 2005 with the 88 and 2011 with the 96. Loved the 88 cubic but knew the tensioner was an issue.
The 2011 had the death wobble. Comfort was good but hated knowing they were not reliable. Changed to Honda....I’ll never look back.
find an old EVO. Rebuild it. Its reliable. Will outlast that Honda .
Im still riding a 45 yo shovelhead like it is new. Your honda will be turned into tuna fish cans long before 45 years.
@@joesurfer9754 I have 3 shovels . 3 pans . 2 ironheads. 1 twin cam. I also have Honda , Yamaha and Triumph. My 1971 Honda CB750FOUR is still going just fine. HD is worth rebuilding. A shovel top end is only good for about 50,000 miles. That Honda you downgrade isnt worth rebuilding. Otherwise it will outlast any HD. My 71 Honda is a chopper. Thats the only reason I own it. But it runs cooler [air cooled] Runs smoother. Is much quicker and of course faster. [straight line its a chopper] Old HDs are out there because they are rebuilt. Thats because they are worth rebuilding. There is a huge aftermarket to support HD. But if you look you will find old imports . They are coming into their own now. Certain models. A 1969 Honda CB 750 FOUR SOHC is now worth 20,000 dollars. AMF shovels? Not so much. Generator shovels are worth money. Kawasaki H1 and H2 3 cylinder 2 stroke 500cc and 750CC are worth money now. The old Kawasaki Z1 is worth money now. So if its worth money it will be rebuilt just like HD.
@@chopperchopster Nice story Bro......
@@joesurfer9754 Eff you . Dont ever bro me if ya dont know me. I got more miles backing my sled up to a bar than you got riding period. Im almost 60 years old. Been building and riding since I was a teenager. Retired from two clubs as well. One that I left when I moved to Az and one that Retired from when it patched over to 81. Look up DIRTY DOZEN MC In Arizona SON. !!!!!
Think about picking up another HD after 8yrs off the brand.
Just recently found your CZcams channel and really like it.
Knowledgeable yet simple and informative.
great info. i had not even thought about the sportsters having gear. good info.
If you think cam chain tensioner shoes are an engine grenade, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just keep running those engines without a chain tensioner. You'll see a grenade a lot sooner than the 15K miles the shoes gave you with absolutely zero visual or audible warning.
Man, you deserve waaaay more subscribers, that's all I have to say. Watched this video after the new one about evolution engine and softail frame, another very interesting one...
I would be happy if they would have at least done gear drive on the cam side of the TC88. It is a bitch checking/replacing the tensioner on the cam side of the plate.
Especially from Harley lol.
They really are a pain, upgrading to hydraulics last longer but gear is the way to go if you can.
My damn 107 whines so much, you would think it was gear drive. Did my 1K mile service yesterday. That Amsoil aint no joke Gixxerfoo. Made the bike smooth as butter!
That oil Harley sells is shit
@@tl5108 heard it was ranked #5 on Vtwin oil. I got my money on Amsoil after what I felt with it at service fill. Night and day difference.
That's awesome! Amsoil has done wonders for my bikes little ticks!
Just traded my 02 softail for a 95 ultra classic, and I couldn't be happier. I've always wanted an evo, but finding one in the dealers close to me was nearly impossible. I even ended up getting 500 cash thron into the deal.
i worked for Harley in dealers for 40 years, and they knew they had an issue and tried to cover it up, and it's caused by Sloppy Tolerances in the crank runout, that the reason they went chain over gears, and ohh it .0003 not .0002 to change to an aftermarket gear set.
Someone needs to make a roller bearing tensioner kit. instead of plastic pads that wear out too fast
The new hydraulic system has been pretty reliable, still needs maintenance though periodically.
I changed out my 2001 Deuce chain drive with an S&S gear drive and loved it. Less motor drag too.
My 09 Dyna is gear drive. Its not a simple conversion. Its not bolt in. HD cranks are almost never within spec needed to convert .
Actually it’s more drag because the surface area with gears is greater. With that greater surface though you get more strength
@@anitabonghit266 I think there is more drag with the chain tensioner. Anyone else want to chime in?
@@naturalforlife6741 Yes, the chains are more drag... you have two pads with a great deal of force (springs version). You can spin a gear drive with your hand and it will keep right on turning all by itself.. and by the way.. there is LESS surface area on the gear drives.. your engaging only 3 teeth at a time, where the chain actually wraps halfway around the sprockets.
@@hawkdsl Thanks for your conformation. There is a test display that S&S has to demonstrate this.
The answer is simple when they started making their crankshaft cheaper and pressing them together they needed a design that could tolerate more run out. The twin cam 88 was just an exercise and making the engine cheaper. I believe this because I own a twin cam 88 and i had to replace the entire cam chest.
I did the se cam plate upgrade last winter. Bike has 60k miles. The tc 88 can be a true dependable long hauler that you can hot rod all day. Unfortunately you have to spend a bit of money to make it truley dependable
The EPA should quit breathing and exhaling all that co2.
I love my 1988 Evo.
1987 fxr had it since 89 and still going strong yearly service keeps it going strong ok.
dont ever go high compression on a EVO, keep it nice, i know
There's a good reason to not do that 👍
@@GixxerFoo the cases wont hold the top end rods, to soft
Exactly, blown head gaskets or worse, pulling studs out of the cases.
Tempkins will be the way I go on my stock 96ci Heritage if and when needed. Thanks for the on-site. Greetings from Durant
A properly built gear driven V2 without tensioners is as quiet as one with tensioners. Lastly, the 2021's now have a new ECM plug thus requiring the Stealership to plug their proprietary software into anything new. The aftermarket will need a least a year to play catch up
I hadn't hear about that on 21's, I knew they plugged in digital tech anytime a bike under warranty came in. A good dealer can make a huge difference though!
I enjoyed the video, I always learn something new. Thanks
Glad to hear it!
I love my 2004 Heritage Classic TC 88. I had the dealer install SE Cam plate, Hydraulic Tensioners, oil pump and SE Inner Cam Bearings and HD Oil Cooler at 30,000 miles. No issues. I expect over 100,000 miles trouble free. Check the Tensioner shoes at 60,000 miles.
I did the exact same upgrade on my 2003 Night Train TC88B (except I had already installed an aftermarket oil cooler), I've got 75,000 miles on it without any problems.
Very nice! That's the way to get it right! I like the gears but it's an expensive undertaking, they hydraulics work very well!
@@nbrider7235 what oil cooler are you running and how do you like it? I am considering putting a fan assisted cooler on my '99 ultra.
@@ericgabriel4190 It's a Jagg Oil Cooler I got from J&P Cycle. I put a dipstick with a temp gauge in my oil tank and it lowers oil temp by quite a bit so I recommend it for hot weather riding, particularly if you have done any performance mods.
I’m running a highly modified 97 EVO
Carbed engine
It’s makin me laugh after over 40 years of me riding HD’s , I never cared about the “ noise”
If the government could keep their nose out of progress , we would be better off
3 words that should never be printed together
“Quiet Harley Davidson “
Sum Beach!!!! Ditching the chain tensioners sounds interesting to me!!! My pet peeve with my twin cam is that it runs too quiet as as far as engine noise. My old panhead always sounded like there were some loose bolts bouncing around inside the engine. I loved that organic sound!!!! : )
I remember when Evolution came out everyone said Evo evolution is a solution
....still is
I also remember the shovelhead die hards saying see no evo hear no evo ride no evo! Lol
Another informative video. Much appreciated.
The H/D shop here just closed. We have been hearing about that coming for years if they didn't get real about pricing and quality. Not the first and not the last.
Unfortunately that's likely the start of a sad trend
There may be a few viewers out there who know of the old 3 speed ,reverse transmission option in place of the 4 speed for use with side cars. My understanding is that option was discontinued for the same reason, too much gear noise. People often blame engineers for problems but just imagine trying to satisfy the EPA and the bean counters.
That's the truth!
Thanks for the video!
I will say that one thing my 05 88 engine is, is quiet. No noise. And I like that. Nothing but exhaust. I notice engine noise big time when I get on my 2012 Sportster. Accept it. Just the way it is. If I had to have cam gear noise, I’d just as soon have it on the Sporty, as I have it. I’m just glad that I know about the tensioner issue. Many a poor bastud doesn’t. That is the true crime of things.
Sadly people want to get a Harley and pick up an 88 without any clue about the issue. I saw it happen on Bike and Beards channel. They are a dealer and they had a clean touring bike with an 88, they had to go like three states away to pick up the guy and the bike they sold. Made it right with him but hell of a way to find out.
I have 2 EVO Harleys, both have carbureted EVO engines. A 1989 FXRS Low Rider and a 1997 FLHT Electra Glide Standard. I've owned the 1989 for 21 years, and it has never given me any problems. It currently has 77,000+ miles on it. Other than aftermarket slip ons and an S&S air cleaner the engine is completely stock. The 1997 I've only had for a little over 5 years, it has 42,000 miles on it and has also been perfect. Completely stock engine other than exhaust. I will never get rid of these bikes. I would not sell them for twice what their market value is. The EVO bikes are the last and best of the REAL Harleys. These are bikes that can be kept on the road for decades after I'm gone. The Twin Cam and M8 were designed from the ground up to be disposable.
I have thought about this for a long time. I am an auto mechanic, not an engineer. But wouldn't using a splined or D shaped or square end on the crankpin pressed into a matching hole in the flywheels have prevented movement? And IMO, there is simply no place for chains inside of ANY engine. They almost always wear out or break long before any other part. I have replaced chains/guides/tensioners on DOHC car engines where you literally had to tear the engine down to get to them. Thousands of $$$ in labor, and the rest of the engine was still fine.
Great insight Gixxer, I am always wondering why HD made that crazy decision.
Would like to go with Gear drive on my 2000 Heritage which has Timken and with crank run out within specs shouldn't be a problem.
Thanks for sharing 👍👍👍
The EVO is the best motor they ever made..
It's hard to argue with, it was built right!
I can tell you what happened to an AMF cam that left me stranded. He just explained it. Interference fit.
Now the roller bearing change was all about saving money!
Thanks man very helpful knowledge. So what year models should we focus on?
Great information!!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge🙏🙏
I appreciate you checking out the video!
U my man are a guru on Harleys good work
Thank you, I just enjoy getting this out there. I've seen too many people decide they want a Harley and pick up a used one not knowing the quirks.
Another good video thanks for sharing
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks, good info.
I did a gear drive conversion on my 09 Dyna Street Bob. The crankshaft had to be machined as HD doesnt set them up within the spec you need to run a gear drive. Im thinking they did chains to save money.
Ding ding you are correct. Crank spec is .012” which the chain makes up for any issue.
And epa noise - two birds with one stone . ✊🏻👍👌
@@crspcritter I question the noise. Sportster still has 4 gear driven cams . They aren't loud
@@chopperchopster exactly; there goes that theory- ✊🏻👍👌
That's why I won't sell my 48. It's simple, reliable, great in traffic, shakes at the traffic light so you burn your extra calories
Great information GixxerFoo. Nice to hear good educational videos about Harley Davidson. Harley Davidson is not the oldest or the most continuous manufactured motorcycle in the world, but it is the oldest motorcycle company in our country and most recognized brand in the world. And probably the most customized motorcycle ever. Not the fastest, not the most reliable, don't care, I like Harleys. Shovel & Evo here.
Thank you and well said! The Shovel and Evo are some of the best engines they ever made, anything after that takes a bit to get them right.
@@GixxerFoo Yea, bottom line, ride what you like.
The EVO was a great and reliable engine for its time albeit under powered when compared to today's higher performance standards given gear drive parameters. With the Cam tensioners resiliency and much broader tolerances has also proven reliability with the right parts and proper maintenance. I wholeheartedly agree with Ride what you want as there are pros and cons in both camps.
i remember way back when i was doing bad things to small blocks that you got rid of the chain and added a gear drive because it had too much slop and lag in the chain. i have no idea why someone doesn't make a gear drive for the cam and primary chains.
True, Victory / Indian Polaris uses a gear drive on their primary. Makes sense! Even back in the teens Indian made a gear driven primary! There is some power loss associated with a gear drive set up but still!
There are plenty of people making gear drive conversions for the Twin Cam. But again, you have to worry about crank runout, and most Twin Cams are not suitable for that upgrade.
@@joelmacdonald6994 man, what a dilemma 🤣 I'm sure glad mine got totaled out when I got hit. Never realized how big of a POS design that was
As with everything in life it has to do with money.
I'm impressed, good information.
I appreciate it! Glad it was helpful!
Strange thing is that the old moto guzzi big blocks had a gear driven cam, but most officianados go in for a gear driven conversion on the first major rebuild (> 100,000 km). This of course makes a lot of sense and makes a very durable engine even more care free.
75,000 mi on my Sportster and no engine problems at all great engine
Sportster is whole other dimension of design, that engine is arguably almost perfect design. I would of been curious to see what would of happened if they just made that engine bigger and kept the same design. Maybe even with the divorced engine and transmission like the big twins.
I did a chain to gear conversion, had to have my flywheel trued. Worth the cost for the peace if mind.
Harley has screwed up every new engine design they come out with after the EVO. They either ignore the problems all together & let the aftermarket take care of it or offer an "upgrade kit" after the bike is out of warranty at the owner's expense. I'll be waiting to hear what's wrong with the Pan American engine 6 months after it's released.
timing chains and again tensioners will be an issue
got 45K on my stock spring tensioners on my 03. dropped the hydraulics in and currently have 85K
Very nice, that's impressive with spring tensioners!
@@GixxerFoo I bought it in Nov of 2014 with 14K on changed oil every 2500 Switched to Synthetic at 20K in 5K intervals. I believe that had something to do with the lifespan
Makes Me glad I got a sporty
It's a lot of the reason l sold my Twin Cam and went back to the Sportster.
It was cheaper to assemble. Pressed wheels can't be trued so pinion shaft runout is all over the place, they would need at least 5 different gear sizes and have to train someone to fit each motor. They dumbed down the whole bottom end with the flywheel might as well do the valve train too. Monkeys building motors, can have some trained in a week to assemble a twincam, a month for an evo, they can pay less, quicker cheaper . That's how they made more tc than every other motor combined, and thats why I can get 10k for my 92 fxtc and only 4k for my 2002 flh. Great video.
Good video . The mess you spoke of sounded interesting
If Harley Davidson can save $1.00 per motorcycle by using inferior parts, they will!!
It sure seems that way!
With such a fundamental change to their original gear drive system that had been reliable for decades, you'd think that Harley would have tested the hell out of their new design...but you'd have thought wrong.
They started work on the twin cam 1992, l think they knew full well and that's the bad part. Some say it was a bad run of cam chains in the early years, we may never know exactly.
Good info, never liked the that twin cam design. Do like that single cam with the chain.
On the gear noise issue, all they had to is make the gears slightly helical. But, that would cost more than a basic straight cut..
Another great video/info share, thanks feller much appreciated. Ps love me '97 evo fatty👍
Glad you enjoyed it! The 96 and up Evo's were some of the best years for that motor!
@@GixxerFoo do you know if there is there anyway of telling from the frame number/ engine number if an evo has the better cam bearing please mate or is it a strip down job to know for sure?
It's all about simplicity. Harley engines are at a level which is less than most lawn mowers.
Very insightful. 😀
Thank you! Both are iconic motors, I still think the Twin Cam should of had a more solid crank and a gear drive.
Same $5 on a cheaper cam bearing or bushing and ruin an engine. And they don't figure that out until they have produced ten's of thousands of engines.
SPOT ON!
all Harley's were gear drive up untell the twin cam ! almost a hundred years
I really appreciate your knowledge and your videos. I don't have confidence in ANYONE'S advice on my 2021 Harley Fat Boy, so I'll ask you;
I'm very dissapointed with the sound. I put an upgraded air kit on as well as Freedom Performance 2 into 1 exhaust, and had it tuned. Runs great but sounds like a Honda. Not needing any performance enhancer, but looking for a better sound. Advice?
I have a 2004 Fatboy with 50k on it and my original shoes are still on, I have checked them twice and there still fine. I also get 10k out of a rear tire though too.
Some bikes did really well, after 2003 it really came down to how hard you ride the bike. Higher rpm really puts more pressure on the shoes, they don't give like the hydraulics do.
@@GixxerFoo Yeah I baby my bike. I know not everyone wants to ride that way.
Epa emissions and noise .
Bigger bore twin cam with shallow chamber gives more complete burn. ✊🏻👍👌