The BIG Reason the Luftwaffe Failed at Stalingrad | Airlift Statistics and Demyansk Comparison
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- It should have met the Minimum Requirements, but it never did. Analysing the Stalingrad Airlift statistics explains why, and also shows us why the Stalingrad Airlift couldn't even supply the same levels they managed during the Demyansk Airlift.
Please check out the pinned comment for Sources, Notes, and additional information.
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*Timestamps, Notes, Links, and Sources*
00:00 Introduction
02:05 Context
04:15 Requirements at Stalingrad
06:51 Planes
11:12 Supply
13:57 Last Orders Please
23:37 Rations
26:30 Stalingrad vs Demyansk
29:17 Reason for Failure
*Links*
Without the support of my Patreons, this video would not have been possible. My Patreons are AWESOME!!! Please consider supporting me on Patreon if you can, thank you www.patreon.com/TIKhistory
Link to my “Why Germany Lost the War - Oil” video czcams.com/video/kVo5I0xNRhg/video.html
Link to my “The BIG Stalingrad Airlift Myth” video czcams.com/video/feeYOqQkr3M/video.html
Link to my “Paulus’s 6th Army ORDER OF BATTLE - Before Stalingrad” video czcams.com/video/DCDjAqTUCmw/video.html
Link to Military History Visualized’s video “Letters from Stalingrad” video czcams.com/video/ql-yeDWm04Q/video.html
*Notes*
The most amount of tons delivered to Demyansk in a single day was 544. The most tonnes delivered to Stalingrad in a single day was 258 (19th of December 1942).
They delivered 24,303 tons to Demyansk. Divide that by 82 and you get 296.37 tons per day. To compare this with Stalingrad, 6536.3 divided by 71, is 92 tons per day.
The figures for the number of tons that are shipped by the airlift varies on each and every source. I think this is because of numerous difference primary sources, plus the difference between ‘tons’ and ‘tonnes’. I didn’t mention this difference in the video because it’s makes things even more complicated. However, regardless of whether it’s tons or tonnes, the Luftwaffe was still not supplying enough on each of the days of the airlift.
Of course there are other issues - The Official German History of the War states that between the 18th and 22nd of December the 6th Army received roughly all the food it needed, stating that the amount flown in was 450 tonnes. But in the statistics table it provides, the number of food tonnes calculated brings us to 562.5 tonnes. Even if you take the three biggest days, 19th to 21st, this totals 509 tonnes, according to its own statistics!
In fact, some of the sources can’t even be sure how many days the airlift went on for, with some saying 71 days, and others saying 73. It was 71. The final day (72nd) they were parachuting supplies to the Soviets.
The highest figure I’ve come across for the amount of tons delivered to the Sixth Army was 8,500. The official German history states 6536.3, and lists the tons per day and also the amounts of tons for food, fuel, ammunition and ‘other’ (which the other sources do not). Even if it was 8,500, that’s still not as much as Demyansk.
The ration at Leningrad ended up sinking lower than I mentioned in the video. And some of the population (possibly half a million) didn’t receive a ration at all. The ration then recovered later.
*Selected Sources / Bibliography*
Beevor, A. “Stalingrad.” Penguin Books, 1999.
Forczyk, R. “Demyansk 1942-43, the Frozen Fortress.” Osprey Publishing Group, 2012.
Glantz, D. House, J. “The Stalingrad Trilogy, Volume 3. Endgame at Stalingrad Book Two: December 1942-February 1943.” University Press of Kansas, 2014.
Hayward, J. “Stopped at Stalingrad: The Luftwaffe and Hitler’s Defeat in the East 1942-1943.” University Press of Kansas, 1998.
“Germany and the Second World War: Volume VI/II, The Global War.” Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (Research Institute for Military History) Potsdam, Germany. Oxford University Press, 2015.
Thanks for watching
+10 for listing your sources.
+TIK this channel needs 1000000 times more views and subscribers. I hope your channel will get there!
Awesome job again!
See you are getting 15k views pretty regularly now. Well done, hard work pays off brother! Rule Britannia.
TIK I have to say, I really enjoy hearing your interpretations and thoughts on these matters...I honestly find them not only liberating, but also informative. You go after the aspects that I've long wondered about. You have earned yourself another subscriber!
Because supplying a quarter of a million men from the air is sort of difficult. Especially when people are shooting at you.
Wow, spot on! :D
Great Jamie Wow... Didn't see that coming.
The French tried this at Dien Bien Phu, despite having no air force, while the Americans at Khe Sanh did it for... 6,000 men. The adjacent bases provided a lot of artillery support, too.
I should imagine the majority of the planes that weren't picked off by Russian fighters were shot down as they reduced speed and dropped down to 500 feet as they entered the pocket
Great Jamie So True! The Russians concentrated Anti-aircraft Artillery along the route the German Aircraft had to take and patrolled it with fighters. The wrong supplies were sent like condoms and summer clothes, also they had a problem with sabotage as early as the African Campaign, worse by this time of the war.
"Red Army Air Force is no longer the flying circus it was during the first weeks of 1941"
Should have 'merely few months earlier' given Soviet Air Forces was being obliterated mere months earlier during summer campaign of 1942.
It’s great to see a unbiased historian at work. This is how all schools should be taught when it comes to history and philosophy in the western world
It's impossible to be truly unbiased, however I'm certainly trying to be as unbiased as possible. I think you may enjoy my 'extra' video that'll be out on Thursday :)
He has a massive anti-German and pro-British bias.
Adam, no I'm not. I'm learning the German language right now, and I state happily that British history is filled with evil people and events. So yes, I'm clearly not what you claim.
I disagree he TIK says it as he See's it even vindicating hitler on occassion
No such thing as a unbiased historian. If he's speaking, it's usually because his side won.
Fine research, well presented. I've never heard the Stalingrad airlift explained in such detail.
Thanks! Yes, I want to clear up some of the myths, and the best way to do that is to dive into the details. More like this to come
The suspense almost killed me. My nephew came around to know what is it I'm groaning about so much. I said "I'll throw something on the screen if he does it one more time!"
Was it all worth it? YES! Great video.
Haha sorry :D
Ad right before the reveal was a nice touch
Nobody can turn a 10-minute video into a 30-minute video like TIK.
Stalingrad's airlift of supplies feels very similar to the French situation in Dien Bien Phu some years later. Both beleaguered forces required supplies of all kind, yet, because of inefficiencies in the Luftwaffe and the French Air Force, as well as the takeover or destruction of important airfields, logistics was a nightmare for the Wehrmacht's 6th Army and the French garrison.
"I always thought the Russkies had something to do with it" -Maj. General George Pickett
wasnt that the guy that rode the A-bomb in Dr Strangelove screaming "yee HAW"?
@@Tiberius_I that's Major Kong
*Wehrmacht soldiers said "If it's a silver plane it's American. If it's a black plane it's British. And if it's no plane at all... It's the Luftwaffe."*
During Normandy few years in the future
Well, when T-34s role up on your airfield and have a grand ol duck shoot, that can kind of complicate things.
That was the fighter bases, not the transports
@@peternickle1884 That was Badanov Tatinskaya raid ,
a crazy hit and run by the 24th tank corps rushing past the frontline far behind to the Tatinskaia air field base ,
his tanks rushed the runaways shooting the transport planes like ducks ,
while the Luftwaffe pilots were taking off in disorder slaloming madly around the burning wreckages
Badanov then was trapped , short of fuel and with his ammunition exhausted
a few of them made it back without their tanks
Stalin was impressed , it was a major operational success and seal the fate of the city
Badanov got his medal , promoted and his corps upgraded to Guard status
Silly comment from someone that has read nothing about what really happened.
Silly comm
A clueless thing to say since the Germans controlled all three airports nearly to the surrender.
The Luftwaffe Also Used He-111's - Fw-200's and even some Ju-290's as Transports during the Stalingrad Airlift.
Very nice, your channel needs more views.
It would be good on the one hand, but I'm struggling to keep up with the comments already! :D
Vasile ! Thank you for documentary on 2ww. I watched it several times.
A friend of my family who died a few years ago was a radio operator on a JU52 going into Stalingrad. His plane was damaged by Soviet anti-aircraft fire and he had to stay in the pocket for several days until the plane was repaired and he could fly out again. Otherwise I would most certainly not have been able to ever talk to him.
I have not yet commented on your videos but I feel compelled to let you know that I absolutly love them, they are really mind blowing when compared with the narrative I was taught. I never really were into history but watching your videos makes me want to make an actual effort to learn the truth about certain events.
Wait wait wait... You weren't really into history, but my videos have made you want to look into it more??? Wow, you've just made my day! This is exactly what I want - more people who aren't into history, getting interested in it. You saying you weren't really into it, but are now, thanks to my videos, is just brilliant. I'm so glad to hear this, so thanks for your comment Plaskiz. Go out there and read more, watch more, and comment more. I want to hear your opinions too :)
Plaskiz philosophers are seeking for truth historians facts ;-) :)
TIK Some 35 years ago I remember listening to a Stalingrad survivor stating a few planes got in one week while they were starving and they were loaded with rubbers and I don’t mean shoes can you imagine that!
German logistics were notoriously poor at times. I recall one story about the Winter of 1941 where a train of supplies arrived, but instead of food, ammo, clothes or fuel, large parts of it were red wine; and the bottles had all broken due to the sub zero temps. Apparently, someone got their supply of red wine as a priority shipment on that train, displacing things that were really needed at the front.
A story from 'The Battle for Stalingrad' by Cornelius Ryan; as one of the breakout attempts were being readied (Operation ThunderClap?) for the 6th army to attempt a breakout, there were stores of clothes that could not be taken. One guy was on a transport expecting that the supply sargents would start to 'hand out' anything that was not going to be able to be moved and the guy was looking forward to getting some more clothing. Instead, to his shock, anything that was not going to be taken was piled up and set on fire. The soldier recounting the story said; "He knew at the point they were going to lose the war." There was also a discussion of how the supply sargents were sandbagging HQ about how much they had on hand for supplies since the fear was that anyone that had 'extra' would be forced to send the extra to other units, plus there was a whole system of black market rumored to be going on with the supplies.
That gap in supplies dropped is on 24th Dec., the date of the Raid on Tatsinskaya. AKA "Ramming speed" AKA "I got your airlift right fucking here"
I am so stoked for the full Stalingrad Battlestorm.
One day, it will happen :)
It was a real pleasure to watch this video.
I liked how you bring hard data with charts that appeals to my visual learning.
Having a passion of history since I was six, I love diving and finding anything about a topic especially if it is military history.
After hearing many references to this battle that do not go into depth, it was wonderful to see the care and details you put into this video.
Keep up the great work and I look forward to more of your videos.
"The Northern pincer doesn't pince" Haha love it :-) Great stuff TIK!
Thing is, I've said the exact same thing about the Kot'loban counterattacks in the Sixth Army Order of Battle video. Honestly, it's clear to me that the Germans like pincing from the north.
Haha yeah, they sure do. Love a good pince....
Kinky
Excellent as always! keep up the good work!
Thank you! I certainly will do my best. And if you liked this one, I think you'll like next Monday's video
As a history guy, I must say you are an excellent teacher.....maybe the best I have seen or heard.....I salute your knowledge and presentation....well done....just subbed...thanks for sharing your knowledge
Thanks for subscribing Russ, I hope you enjoy the other history videos I have. Another is coming out later today too (I post every Monday)
TIK means accuracy !!! and myth destroyer!!! Definitly was the Red Army. Excelent video, congratulations.
Thanks Traub, glad you agree! I'm certainly trying to be as accurate as possible :)
Your channel is a gem of military history youtube.
P.S. What in-depth history channels do you watch on YT if any?
Military History Visualized is a big one. And Blitz Of The Reich is a small but good channel who's just starting out.
Yeah MHV is great.
Jack of War did an interesting take on Blietzkrieg although that is his only work.
thanks for the shout out bro
I'm going to recommend *"The Great War"* just because its a great channel if you're interested in European history despite its (semi) irrelevance to the current video and comment thread.
@@TheImperatorKnight Military History Visualized is a good one but has kinda strange accent.english is not my native so have some dificulty to understand what hi seys.but yes,hi is good one.
I am totally enthralled by you videos and you no nonsense approach to military history
I've studied this battle a long time and this is possibly the most vigorously and well explained overviews. Many Thanks.
Before this video I always figured Goering wanted to be a "team player" so he claimed the Luftwaffe could handle the supply needs. But now I see how Goering might have truly believed it could be done. He didn't, and probably could not, consider the Soviet factories coming back on line. That really makes a lot of sense. Excellent video!!
DONE! I'm now a Patreon! I just love your work mate!! When I receive the notification I know I'll have something worth watching when I go home... Thanks for your work and I hope in the future to be able to support you in a higher level!!
Oh wow, thank you very much!! I'll be messaging the new Patreons tomorrow, but seriously, thank you. You and the others are making these videos happen. It's going to make a difference, you'll see :)
Excellent clip. Thank you for shedding light on this murky subject. You come off as completely unbiased and superbly informed. I learned a lot from the video. Great work!
The real reason the Germans lost was not playing enough Close Combat 3
Agreed! This is the MAIN reason Germany lost the war
Bah, main reason is that they had no load/save option...
The germans (Prusians) used board games as a way to teach strategy from 1700-century . Don’t know how wide spelad it was during WW2.
You should have spent more time in school hitting the books learning how to spell. instead of playing mindless video games. Bad spelling makes you look like a moron.
T S Birkby: Based on your statement I can only presume you are either a moron or a troll.
TIK
Interesting and informative. Five stars for the clear and easy to understand graphs. Very well done start to finish.👍
Thank you!
quality work, as always
Thank you sir!
Thank you for eloborate discription of the war .
I was just born at that time of WW2.
I am now able to know so much about the WW11
TIK mate, you are great, keep those videos coming :)
Thank you Marko! Don't worry, another will be out this Monday, and every Monday :)
Absolutely a GREAT and well thought out presentation!
Once again a phenomenal video. You have showed once again why I support you and your channel.
P.S. I saw your HOI4 Germany First Gameplay and I must say it was great...just saying if you decide to throw out some HOI4 for some views, you got a customer in me.
You really want me to return to HOI4? I will say, I love the game. Just wish they'd kept elements of the order of battle system from HOI3
And thank you again for you support Ricky. You're making these videos happen! :)
the Order of Battle system was so difficult. I think if they just kept a realistic logistics system you wouldn't have spiderweb formations that make Bialystok look like a piss cake.
or Darkest Hour, better and less clutter.
lol
a comment about Hoi ! :-)
Well, I also will coment about Hoi :)
TIK, I'm Nick, Hoi-2/DH-Full modmaker (yes, that's still the best of Hoi!), and I also love WW2 history, so I do the MOST HISTORICAL/REALYSTIC Mod in ALL Hoi-2/3/4/5 Universe !
So, if you are also really deep in WW2 history - let you see my Mod and I guarantee you'll admit that this is really the most historic "WORLD in WW2" realization you've ever seen! ;-)
By the way, I was just given a link to this your video, because I also studied the effectiveness of supply of the Demyansk pocket in order to set the most realistic "air supply coefficient" for transport-plane unit in my Mod.
By the way, I had to raise the basic vanilla game setting 10 (!) times more to achieve really full realism in this aspect, based on the Demyansk pocket.
And this is just one of many thousands historical aspects that I have accurately implemented in my Mod. Just test it! As WW2 history fan - you will be in delight, because you've never seen such deep historicity and realism in Hoi before! ;-)
forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/nicks-ww2-multiplayer-realism-mod.1229617/
This video is put together well with a lot of research and many things I didn't know. I too had read that Goering had suggested to Hitler about supplying the troops by air. I didn't know that the cargo delivered changed when the Germans began to realize that a breakout was not possible. Very enlightening. I once read somewhere that it was so cold that the German airplane mechanics could not take their cold weather gloves off therefore many adjustments to the planes were not done. This is really a top notch video about one of my favorite subjects, WW2 and the war in the East.
You are doing an amazing job. So much detail is really incredible. Thank you for your work
I loved the look at the recommended video link when you mentioned aviation fuel.
Haha if it entices at least one person to click, then I'm happy :D
This is a really good vid, seriously, excellent work...
I learned a lot again. Thanks TIK. :-)
These are fantastic videos. Thank you for giving these great lectures!
This was very informative and very interesting!
Amazingly reaserched and engagingly presented with empationd delivery
Thanks for the data analysis and discussion of one of the key battles of WW2!👍
Loving these man. Have to have a catch up soon.
The Luftwaffe lost a LOT of pilots from November 42 through Spring of 43.
They took an absolute pounding in southern Russia, and then took another pounding over Tunisia.
To a very large degree, the Luftwaffe never recovered.
Then, February 44 their world caved in: the 8th USAAF wiped out their avgas reserve stocks -- and the three critical refineries able to make avgas.
( Not every refinery could do so.)
Thereafter the Luftwaffe lived a hand-to-mouth existence, building planes something crazy... that could never fly... because there was no avgas for them.
Very true, I read an account from a Luftwaffe pilot in the late war, P-51s and P-47s were always able to get way higher and faster because of their available high-octane fuel. The Luftwaffe meanwhile as you say was just getting by on whatever they had or could make quickly enough so their aircraft engines were never running as efficiently as they might with better fuel supplies.
I would argue that the lack of fuel hampered the Luftwaffe in another very big way. To train someone to fly takes both an airplane AND fuel. The situation for the Japanese was similar in some ways. At Midway, they lost in trained pilots and maintenance crews heavily, so much so that they had to rush the training of the next generation of pilots. They in turn were tossed into the fighting around Rabaul, and were equally massacred there. Those people were then replaced by a third group of pilots who died in the Mariana's Turkey Shoot, and so on. The Germans lost heavily in pilots fighting the Soviets, and had to replace the lost pilots with people with less training and experience, and things just kept going from bad to worse.
David Himmelsbach: I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment that the 8th USAAF seriously hurt German fuel supplies. Most of the German fuel supplies came from Polesti in Romania, and that was the target for the 15th USAAF, it was simply out of range for the 8th USAAF, and the fact is that the 15th USAAF was never able to stop a single refinery from working, period.
@David Briggs
I don't comprehend your lack of comprehension.
8th USAAF destroyed the refineries that were in Germany (not Romania) and their adjacent tank farms where the Luftwaffe held its avgas reserve stocks. It was from these tank farms that the Luftwaffe passed on avgas to units across Nazi occupied Europe -- primarily Germany, itself, at this point in time.
This period was branded the "Big Week" by the USAAF -- and many a propaganda film// newsreel was released shortly after its success. The burning avgas, and more, took days to cook off. The smoke cloud was visible forever into the distance.
These stocks were refined fuels -- not crude oil -- which is what the US 9th AAF ( Tidal Wave, North Africa) and US 15th AAF (many raids, Foggia complex) hit around Ploiesti.
Yes, Ploiesti had some refining capability, but its real claim to fame was the production of crude oil. Wiki has everything all screwed up.
[The primary goal of Tidal Wave was the Tank Farm. ( Which was adjacent to the refinery complex.) It was obvious from the start, that a tank farm is self destructive once it's lit, and that once things really get rolling, the burning crude oil and refined products will spill out and ruin the nearby refinery.
They also made for a Fat Target whereas the refinery, itself, is actually a pretty tough target. ( It's always made out of high quality THICK steel, commonly thicker than tank armor!) The sensitive and touchy components would be TINY. ( valves and pumps ) The electrical controls in a refinery are always inside rigid steel pipe as no sparks from the power system can ever be permitted to ignite gases or fuels.]
Yes, other German refineries could still produce avgas, but they couldn't re-form crude feed stock up into higher octanes. The Luftwaffe had to settle for that natural fraction of crude oil and synthetic crude oil that distilled off as avgas. For most feedstocks this was a pathetically low fraction. Such a process is know as a distillery -- not a refinery.
[ In the oil business, a distillery is derisively termed a 'teapot.']
It was just enough avgas to let the Luftwaffe limp along. It became common for the Luftwaffe to just sit on the ground and let the Americans do their worst, as the Luftwaffe couldn't put up enough fighters to even mix it up with the escorts.
Shortly after the Big Week, Ike took personal command ( ie redirected Spaatz) ordering the 8th and 9th AAF to ignore German industry and to concentrate on the the transport grid. This went on for months. (March, April, May, June... Ike didn't release these air forces until the Cobra breakout, itself a massive heavy bomber tactical attack.)
It was at this time that Speer and Galland made a MAJOR plea with Adolf to use the respite to train a whole new batch of fighter pilots while the sky over Germany was clear of USAAF fighters. But they lost the 'debate.' Both of them later published their tale in Reader's Digest. ( 1946, IIRC ) [ Strange... as Speer was in the docket at the time.]
Their pitch was basic: this is the last time that the Luftwaffe has any shot at re-blooding the fighter arm, and that all bomber pilots have to be re-tasked away from bombing the enemy. The US 8th AAF is destroying Germany's war industries. This must be stopped at all costs, or the war will be lost for lack of production.
Also, during the respite, Speer threw every man at rebuilding crippled refineries -- and he even opened up fuel plants inside hollowed out mountains. ( These cavities were originally dug out for other critical war industries (IIRC, radio tubes) -- but were taken over for liquid fuel production. )
Fortunately for the Allies, Speer was largely unsuccessful.
Robert Gräfe It could be argued that the entire Wehrmacht was overstretched. The only branch of the Wehrmacht that might not have been overstretched was the Kriegsmarine, but that's only because they didn't (to the best of my knowledge) have much of a role on the Eastern Front.
Great video, once again. Thank you sir!
If you like this, you'll probably enjoy next Monday's video too :)
My god. The level of research and on top of that the unbiased attitude without being too snobbish - Whoa. Your type of people are very, very hard to come by.
And yes, thanks for the timestamps in the description.
This has got to be your best presentation. Graphs maps pictures great lecture.
You remind my of a conspirasy guy whit the important difference that you actually make sence and support your claims whit something more than screams. Keep up the GREAT job and thanks you for the quality material.
imperator servat
Agreed, although it might not be the most "sexy" point of view, it is the more informative and in the long run "better" way of presenting history... Then again, I have more interest in the overall strategic experience, so I might be very biased.
Oh absolutely, I am not claiming that the other stuff isn't there, or interesting!
Your videos are very educational.Thank you
You've very welcome, thanks for watching!
Your videos are amazing thank you for sharing knowledge with us!
Thank you.. its always a pleasure to watch y videos. I learned a lot.. And your way of thinking is magnificient.. thank you brother
Impressive job Mr. TIK! Kind regards.
Thank you sir!
Conclusion: the Germans (as always) have overestimated their own resources and capability and underestimated the opponent.
Yes! The Germans planned for Russians to just quit? I am thankful for the Russian fortune. America. Seems now, the Russians think America wants them? Why?
Old Gulags. Seriously. Actually, the cities built up around the Gulags. The yanks believe a Gulag city will be more productive as long as they introduce a few home comforts... think on that as in many of these places it is -20 degrees Centigrade for 9 months of the year.
WE Yanks maybe should not have supplied these goods? Don't you know how boring life is for We Yanks with only a few home comforts? .
Russian Movies With English Subtitles They believed their own propaganda, ignoring the fact that by this time in the war the Russians had excellent Fighters, not the biplanes and out of data aircraft they began the war with.
Yeh, but think of how boring life is WITHOUT them when it's -20 Centigrade 9 months of the year! And at least these remote cities are not ramshackle huts anymore since many of the Gulags' inmates married the NKVD, etc guards and settled quite peacefully in decent accomodation. America is entirely capable of building a solid infrastructure between these remote places and making life entirely bearable as well as comfortable.
You forget, Russians are a very hardy people.
I can't remember the names of these places anymore but they are remote and the size of very large towns with the capacity for large industrial output and the infrastructure to house workers, schools, libraries, etc.
I have been looking all around CZcams for a channel that analyzes the tactics and strategies behind the battles, and now I have found it!!!!!
Very interesting in depth analysis, a nice addition for people who already read Beevor/Glantz/Stahel. Good work man, good luck on your channel
Superlative presentation skills.
Mate, your videos are excellent, just what CZcams needs in terms of WWII documentaries. Are you a graduate or are you an enthusiast? Either way you are brilliant and keep the videos coming!
I do have a degree in history, but if I'm honest, it's not really been of any use to me. I'll come back to this topic in a future video because a few people have asked :) thanks!
exceptional analyses, thank u!
This is a really good video! Well done sir.
New subscriber subbed about a week ago and i just want to say your channel is fantastic just the stuff im into, p.s you should play some more hearts of iron and give some more history lessons when playing it would be great to see. Keep up the good work man love the channel.
Hi Thomas! It's definitely something to consider. Have played some HOI4 and have videos on my channel of it. They weren't particularly popular, and I'm interested in the history more than gaming now (little time!). But I'll certainly consider doing another HOI4 video or two in the future
_The BIG Reason the Luftwaffe Failed at Stalingrad | Airlift Statistics and Demyansk Comparison_
Let me guess before watching the video : Lack of fuel? Lack of unaffected runaways, and maintenace problems? Just guessing. I will dive into the video to ge the info. This guy, TIK is one of the most knowledgeable WWII commenters I have ever seen so far as 100% of what he presents precisely collates to the rest of the info I have had as well as to the most logical propositions for all those grey areas that is difficult to get the exact picture even if using all sources available.
You weren't wrong, but you missed the one crucial point :) which is good, because it shows that not enough books give credit to where credit's due
And thank you for your kind words sir!
Hi TIK, I just found the time and sat down and watched the whole video. Needless to say I am immmmmprrrressed! Such depth of analysis is rare, not just in youtube presentations but even in academic ones! Each of your presentations has enlarged my capacity to understand the core issues that decided outcomes on the tactical level and in extention on the strategic. I am not a WWII expert, more like a generalist history lover in terms of european/world history and only more of an (amateur) specialist on my nation's history. Your presentation made me ponder over other such situations, not necessarily of trapped troops but of supply-chain conundrums in other wars and battlefields and eras of history.
Thanks for yet another lesson, Sir.
Yet again another brilliant video mate!
Thanks for this excellent presentation.
Luftwaffels are sky-tasty for Soviet planes from 1943-45
I got a good chuckle out of that!
And still in 43-44 the Luftwaffe had a 3-1 losses exchange ratio vs the VVS. Also in 1943 the Luftwaffe dropped 66% more bombs on the eastern front than the VVS. It seems that the "Luftwaffels" were extremely hard to digest...
By late 1942 the Luftwaffe was losing more fighters in the Mediterranean than they were losing on the Eastern Front. And that's not counting losses in the West, to strategic bombing. 75% of Luftwaffe losses were to the western fighters.
Yes. And Hitler still considered the Red Army and Air Forces to be depleted in men and materiel and not a soul would dare to enlighten the idiot.
Telling Hitler he was wrong about his underestimation of the Red Army inevitably led to you being ordered to fight on the OstFront to find out for yourself!
Gaslight Studios
Well, I suppose if you know exactly when and where the enemy slow lumbering air transports are going to be as well as where their air bases are, it makes it a lot easier to 'choose your fights' in much more concentrated numbers. And, ultimately, damaging an 'Auntie Ju' was as good as destroying it during a terrible Russian Winter.
But as far as I know, the Luftwaffe still managed to put up 'phoned in' air-strikes against Soviet concentrations. Just not to the same effect as they did in '41-'42. Eg, Hans Ulrich Rudel, and men like him, STILL flew Stuka ground attack sorties as late as 1945.
Not that the Russians didn't.
In fact, the Russians performed vastly more ground attack sorties with their Sturmoviks [or 'Flying Tanks'] from early '44 onwards. With such vast frontlines it was no surprise that many ground attack aircraft were rarely intercepted by the time fighter support was called for. This applied to both sides.
"We could supply an army, if not for the enemy. . ."
To take a crack at your question, my my gut feeling is no: even if it had gotten through, the 300 ton figure is for bare subsistence, not for sustaining an effective fighting force.
But who knows. . .
Another outstanding presentation. First rate information.
I love your vids, they are so informing!
i'm fascinated with wwII and especially stalingrad .. keep the videos coming .. can you do one on the day-to-day lives of soldiers inside and outside the pocket?
Hi! Nice presentation.
The Soviet airforce was certainly starting to recover at that point... The Romanian pilots felt and testified the same thing.
To answer your question, I think that it would have been very difficult for the Sixth Army to break out on subsistence rations.
The only chance was there, if they started to move from the first moment. But that would have meant leaving their forward positions and thus surrendering the right bank of the Volga entirely... That is my insufficient documented opinion. More of a guess actually...
Looking forward to your next episode 🙂.
Good to hear your opinions on this :) I don't want to say too much, I'll save it for that future video
The infantry needed to stay put.
The panzers and motorized infantry needed to scoot back west... refuel... and turn around.
I don't know why that wasn't obvious to the Germans -- straight off.
There was NO WAY for infantry to march back to Rostov.
They needed to stay on their guns, and let the panzers turn the tables.
@ David Himmelsbach a brilliant solution from a brilliant military mind!
The 6th Army and elements of 4th Panzer Army's panzers would just gear up, drive to Rostov (390km in a straight line; over 420km if they'd swing south of the Don avoding the need for a river crossing), refuel, turn back and kick them Russkies ass!
Now let's examine some 'unimportant details' that would spoil the beautiful simplicity of this plan.
1. The three panzer divisions that remained in the encirclement had already suffered loss of vehicles, spare parts, ammunition, fuel and manpower. The number of servicable tanks they could field was around 100. For these, they had fuel for an advance of roughly 30km.
2. Even if these tanks could somehow get more fuel, they would then have to pierce the inner ring of the Soviet encirclement. To execute this without the Soviet command noticing this formation assembling, either through areal observation, or simply seeing them from their forward positions, would be impossible. This is the Pontic Steppe, not the Ardennes Forest. Not only would the assembly area immediately find itself under fire from every piece of artillery in the sector, and bombed/strafed by every available airplane in the sector; it would also give the Soviet command the choice of launching attacks at any point of the German defeses, knowing that they would not have to deal with any counterattack by the panzer units.
3. In order to achieve the breakout, troops in the encirclement would have to put at the disposal of this panzer force most of their artillery, as well as the best of the infantry left, so as to storm the Soviet field positions, anti tank guns, clear minefields etc. This would leave the remaining troops in Stalingrad without any means to defend themselves.
4. Had this force managed to punch through, they would have to deal with the layers of the Soviet defenses, counterattacks by the Soviet tank formations, fire from the antitank positions (Pakfronts), anti aircraft artillery used in the antitank role (including the formidable 85mm M1939(52k) pieces), Soviet Air Force...
5. At best (and this goes for the whole of the encircled forces at Stalingrad), the breakout attempt would end up like the Soviet attempts at breaking out of encirclements through 1941-42 campaigns. A few units would possibly be able to escape, but these would have lost or had to ditch most of their equipment and would not be combat capable. Refueling would be the least of their concerns at this point.
Mind you, that I understood the improbable 'refueling at Rostov' to mean reaching the closest German resupply area, because it's apparent you do not have much knowledge about the geography of the region.
Fortunately it's not that far. All that the panzers have to do is beat Soviet infantry marching across the snow on foot.
1) The lead elements had no heavy weapons until days passed.
2) The pincers didn't close up until THREE days passed. You might run some calculations as to how much faster a Mark III tank is versus a bunch of ground pounders.
3) The supply echelon would chase down the westward panzers, there can be no doubt about that.
4) The T34s coming down from the north have to cover twice as much ground -- and are racing AWAY from their supply echelon.
5) During this race, the panzer can pretty much stay right on their own supply trails// roads if you want to call them that.
6) The departure of the panzers would take with them as many soldiers as could reasonably ride on top -- just for the shear joy of escaping the pocket. Expect many volunteers.
7) No small number of the panzers would be half-tracks -- which are absolute death for light infantry. They're more deadly than Mark III panzers. They pack more machine guns and have better visibility. They also don't do so bad with fuel consumption.
8) In the actual campaign, Paulus sent the panzer regiments up to fight -- in a swirl -- with T34s -- northward. BIG mistake. They needed to race away from the Soviets and then shield their own supply echelon. Going all the way to Rostov was merely a term of art, as it would be expected that the supply stream would meet the panzers some place around the Chir river// or Kalach.
9) The 11th Panzer was located to the west of 6th Army and would've been very able to hook up with the 14th Panzer Corps or 24th Panzer Corps or both.
10) The key thing being that panzers are virtually worthless on defense. Their mobility is their number one asset.
( Kind of the same with helicopters, and helicopter troops. If they stay
put, they get shot to chit. )
As for your estimate of the fuel available to the panzers at start: wrong.
Those numbers came from Paulus AFTER he'd burned through their gasoline supply chasing off to the north, and then wheeling back into the pocket. (!!!) Most accounts omit the fact that this is what Paulus & Company did in the days prior to the pocket being sealed up. Yes, they went up and back -- back into the Stalingrad pocket. (!!!) This one pointless chase burned up the very fuel that would've permitted all of them to escape to the west.
That's called BAD leadership. NO WAY would Guderian, Rommel, Hoth, ... bring panzers back into a kessel, an obvious kessel.
The panzers had to break out BEFORE they were breaking out: BEFORE the Soviets ringed them in. The closure took THREE DAYS. The panzers could've shot out in less than six-hours. Paulus didn't even post sentries// observation posts to his rear. Yes, the Red Army advanced all that way ON FOOT without Paulus realizing what was unfolding. He really was surprised when the ring was closed. Even then, the panzers could've shot through it -- because the Russians had no anti-tank weapons of any kind. They couldn't even dig fox-holes in that cold weather.
( When the Germans retreated out of their fox-holes -- they couldn't dig replacement holes further back and in, either. )
None of the Soviet weapons and positions you posit were in place until a week had passed. Getting anything across the Volga, the southern wing, was a bitch and a half. The Soviets had to use dynamite to blow the ice ridges out of the way so as to finally have a truck route. Yeah, that process took days. All the longer because the Germans were shelling them at the time. (They were crossing that close to Stalingrad. The Russians had their own logistical nightmare on the east side of the Volga, too. )
To make things short: your thesis lies bleeding, wait, it's dead.
So sad.
I love WW2 history and this channel is very good !
I love history and you're very fair in your assessment keep it up
Interesting video. My grandfather had the dubious honor of being the last wounded German officer to be airlifted from Stalingrad. He recovered from wounds and was promptly sent back, captured and did not come back until 1954. My mom was born in 1943 and did not see him until then. Understandibly, my grandfather was a ptsd mess.
I hope he’s doing well . . . Regardless of which side; he’s worked hard enough
May he live/rest in peace
Thank goodness he came back. Most didn't
Your work is defining what it means to be a great historian! Well done . . . you are shining a light on the reality - which for most of us - is hidden in the mists of time.
Thank you very much for your great comment!
Beevor got me interested in Stalingrad. This video (an others like it) takes it to the next level. Awesome job!
Just wait until I get my Stalingrad documentary out ;) if you haven't already, check out my other 'Battlestorm' videos (assuming you haven't already) if you want to see the style of the documentary I'm making. A good example is my latest one on the Bruneval Raid czcams.com/video/6EiOG_yvT04/video.html
I hadn't and it looks excellent. Looking forward to your Stalingrad doc!
Well done you, Sir! I've been in desperate need of a new & fresh History Teacher/ Freak/ Perspective. Thank you for your work although I doubt you call it that... you're ability to research, absorb, assess, & communicate extremely complex people, places, & events must be a gift. ~Jerry Darlington, Reno, NV.
Great video as always. It's worth pointing out that the German Air Force was also airdropping supplies to the pocket at Kholm most of the time it was supplying Demyansk, which was an additional draw on its resources.
WRT the breakout question: in Frank Ellis' book "The Stalingrad Cauldron" he quotes from a veterinary officer of one of 6th Army's infantry divisions that the heavy horses were already starving to death in October. Given the shoestring supply lines, fodder was way down on the list, and once the local supplies were eaten, the horses had nothing. Even before the encirclement, 6th Army would never have got its heavy equipment out of Stalingrad. The encirclement just made the situation worse.
Great work sir keep it up
Thanks! Will do
Amazing video as always
Transporting supplies by air is uber-expensive. When the USAAF was trying to fly missions against Japan out of China, it required two gallons of gasoline to fly in ONE gallon to be used on an actual combat mission. That means gross fuel requirements were TRIPLED. Flying in a single 500 lb bomb would likewise require 1,000 lbs of gasoline, or around 330 gallons. Then, there's ammo, spare parts, food and other supplies for the crews an ground personnel. In the end, the effort was abandoned as unfeasible. It didn't help, of course, that they were trying to fly B-29's off airstrips built with rocks busted by hand by peasant labor.
There were other efforts of air resupply later in the war for example at battles like Korsun-Cherkassy Pocket 26 Jan- 18 feb 1944 and the air resuply lasted alot shorter from 30 jan- 12 feb when the last plane left Korsun Airfield. This operation was more successful but far smaller than Demyansk and Stalingrad. I feel the luftwaffe was overworked with alot of these air resuplies and then still expected to give air cover and ground support.
I found this a very good and useful video for understanding the reality of the Eastern Front in WWII. I find it interesting that the multitude of reasons the Germans supplied and that we've traditionally relied on to understand why they lost to the Soviets are being overturned by "Nah, the Russians just beat them.".
Decent subtitles... Damn what a comfort! Thumbs up TIK!
Cool. A video on t Demyansk/Stalingrad comparison. I have always heard that t success at Demyansk was what largly was responsible for t failure at Stalingrad. Looking forward to you going on about it all in great length, depth, and detail.
You changed my perception of wwii completely in many occasions. Please do a video about Raid on Tatsinskaya.
It's on my to-do list :)
Really love the way you go in depth about stuff that others gloss over, never change!
I won't change the in-depthness or my morals, but I will adapt. I cannot grow and develop without change! :)
One of the most under-subscribed channels out there. You Sir, just gained one more!
Ah. It appears this time I'm not as early as usual.. I'm slacking off it seems! No but another excellent video TIK.
Really enjoying these doco's....
Some of your info differs from the books ive been reading all these years... Beevor, Liddell Hart, Hastings, Neitzel etc...
Your arguements make sense.
It's all to do with the opening of the Soviet archives. New information is coming out. Let me add a couple names to that list that you should read - Robert Citino and David Glantz :)
After the end of the war, my mother met a former Luftwaffe pilot who had had his Ju-52 shot up by Russian flak when flying to Stalingrad. His legs were so badly shot up he never flew again.
Great informative video
Thank you! Good to hear you enjoyed it :)
Just subbed! Excellent video!
Thanks. That was interesting. A lot of stuff in there I didn't know.
I remember reading about an FW-200 that had been pressed into service from it's base in Norway. The pilot landed, taxied and shut down his engines. A member of the ground staff ran out frantically yelling at him to restart the engines but when he tried - they wouldn't restart because of the cold. It was cold in Norway but apparently not as cold as it was at Stalingrad.
One thing I wonder about. Since they had successfully done this before, I wonder if a lot of the Germans just assumed they could do it again and weren't as desperate as they should have been from the start. Sometimes things like that make a difference.
.
The Auntie Jue's normal load was 3,000 pounds. Power was 3 - 600 hp BMWs. Plenty of power to easily load twice that figure....dependent on cargo cubic dimensions. Canned food for example could easily cram 6,000 pounds worth. I'm a former twin engine Beech 18 cargo pilot. With it's two 450 hp motors, it easily took off with 4,000+ pounds when a normal (legal) load was 2,200 pounds. The problem with overloading an aircraft of course, is engine failure. Lose one - you're done BUT you can do it. I'm almost sure many Auntie Ju's were way overloaded due to the emergency.
@@chuckyxii10 ....Sad. They could've carried twice that, there's a term for it "war emergency." But they might have been restricted due to short, snow & ice covered runway and landing direction....one way only compounded by no choice with a tailwind. Thanks.
dude i love how often new videos come out lately
I'm working real hard to keep to this schedule - one video every Monday at 5pm London Time :)
Thanks for the excellent video.
Thank you, very interesting episode.
I have one question regarding the plane availability: are you counting only the units flying the Ju-52, or all the transport units supplying Stalingrad (including those flying He-111 transports, for example)?
playing heart of iron 4 while watching your content
good time!
pro-tips: always upgrade your figthers like mad in hoi4 :-)
This is the best information source of information about World War II i've seen
Thanks brother,you always are remarkable.. y every video is great..