How To Fix Short Wires In An Electrical Box
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
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When working with electrical in older homes that have been updated over the years it is not uncommon to run into short wires when replacing an outlet or light switch. There are 3 different options that I will go over in addition to speaking about what NEC says for the length of wires in an electrical box.
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NEC Code 300.14 -
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Chapters
0:00 Intro
0:49 NEC 300.14 Review
1:35 Option 1: Checking for Service Loop/Extra Romex
2:52 Option2: Pulling New Romex to Junction Box or Panel
4:28 Option 3: Extending Wires With Wago 221 Lever Nuts
7:53 Wrap Up
DISCLAIMER: This video and description contain affiliate links, which means that if you click on one of the product links, I’ll receive a small commission. - Jak na to + styl
Couple little minor tips from an Electrician that has beenpulling wire for almost 40 years. #1) When you are taping wire on to pull anywhere (up a wall, in a pipe, etc...) Tape in the direction of the pull. What I mean is this: If pulling up or through a wall from an existing box, do not start in the box and tape out, start on the outside and tape back into the box or wall. That way there is 1 tape "edge" for any obstruction to catch and roll the tape off or into a bundle that can really screw up your day. Each wrap of tape overlays the prior wraps with the "edges" facing back and not forward.
# 2) 99% of pulls like you are showing in this video do NOT need to be twisted. Cut the individual wires in each romex back in a staggered way leaving the grounds (or a stripped insulated wire if no ground on the old romex) long and do a TIGHT fold on each of them. Tape tight and your bundle is MUCH smaller and compact and in some cases will slide through old staples if the old romex is the cloth covered type. In 40 years of doing it this way I have never had wires pull apart in a wall fish if properly, tightly taped and not jerked HARD.
Other than those two little things, this is a great tutorial for people. Most of these DYI videos concentrating on electrical work makes me cringe, the ones I have seen from you are generally spot on and only lacking in the minor details that only come from too many years of experience that make the job easier.
Those are good tips Scott.
If pulling from the attic like in the vid, is it still possible if the nm is stapled? What if it’s stapled in two locations?
Thanks for your 2 cents, I love comments from people that know what they are talking about. 👍
In cases like this, I'd also use the copper crimps and heat shrink to make better repair connections. Those clip-on terminals are quick and easy, but they only bond with a narrow area of copper and can heat up and fail under load. Wire nuts or copper barrel crimps with heat shrink is the safest method.
Wow! You have been doing this too long!! A ++++!! 👏👏👏👏
The staggering can be a life saver in some cases. I'm a Industrial Electrician in steel mill thats close to 100 years old I pull wire about 2 times a week and one of the first things I was taught was to stagger the ties, keep it as small as possible.
Be sure to test both sockets. I pulled a 20a out of a box and received a gift from a dual circuit socket. I found that it's a good habit and to test any and all old wires to make sure there isn't any current running through them. Back feeding is a thing, test all wires.
You are providing a valuable service for people like me, who are good with their hands and are able to do a lot of things, but don't always know the best practices when it comes to electrical. Thanks for doing this.
No he is providing a stupid service for people that want to kill themselves or set their home on fire. Because amateurs playing around with something after watching a CZcams video
He has the best DIY vids! Explanatory without patronizing, showing common mistakes and fixes!
@@skaizunTrue very informative & great instructor.
A couple of things
1 You should always snap the ears off of the outlet when using a blue Carling Box like this then the outlet will sit flushed with the box rather than bending the ears over and causing the cover not to sit right.
2 With the Carlin Box like this you can loosen the screws up pull the Box out and see if you can loosen the wire inside the wall to get more into the box.
3 You can always take a piece of yellow sheathing off of a peice of 12-2 romrx and slide it over the wires so you have some type of protection where the wires come into the Box.
This was a demonstration. You missed the point here
@@Verminator151029 so I'm not overthinking explain why having been 'chest fed' is not good. thanks in advance.
All great tips, Thank you!!
I like suggestion number 3!
Excellent video, thank you. This was the first problem I faced the very first time I attempted an electrical repair--replacing a switch in my parent's almost [sob] half a century ago. I'd never heard of pigtails or the NEC, backwiring and Wagos were not yet dreamt of, the Internet was beyond imagining, and what should have been a 15 minute triumph was more than half an hour of cursing and sweating (literally, this switch was outdoors on the screened in porch), and fervent prayers that I had not just cost my folks an expensive service call. So my very first fix was also the first time I came face to face with a nemesis I'm very much afraid I myself have been for others: The Last Guy. I eventually succeeded, yay, but this would have been a great help.
This reply is the kind that makes reading the replies worthwhile. 😂
Nice! I'm definitely going to use these tips from now on. Up to now I've been using the technique where you carefully deliver loud expletives, cursing the last person to work on the outlet, while making do with what little wire you have.
Loud expletives still works after thousands of years. Curse the man who worked before you, especially if it was you.
I love your videos. I just purchased a house and am doing little electrical fixes and your videos have saved me so much time and money. Thank you so very much!
For DIYers, check both the top and bottom outlets before working on an outlet. It can be a split circuit outlet with the top and bottom on different circuits. Rare, but it happens. I wired a garage like that once. Also, take a scrap insulation cover and slide it over the wires where they enter the box.
Agreed, the first mistake in the video was him only checking live voltage on the bottom half of the outlet. Though, you could obviously see if two circuits were run to the outlet upon taking it out of the wall. Also, he replaced the original outlet with the same type, seems like extra work.
First thing I thought. He could probably see the tabs intact without removing the receptacle, but that's another thing a DIYer would have to understand. DIY or pro, it's not exactly difficult to check both receptacles/every wire in the box.
Yes, always check both outlets on the top and bottom of the receptical.
Yes, definitely check both top AND bottom outlets. I got a nasty shock once from a split circuit outlet. I always check both now.
Exactly what I was going to say. Many homes have a split circuit, with one of the outlets going to a light switch. Especially older homes.
When my Grandpa, dad and uncles wired the 95-ish year old farmhouse I live in, he would hook up each device then have one of his sons pull the wire from the basement/crawlspace so there would be as little wire in each box as possible. He did this to save a few inches (which add up to feet) of copper wiring. Yes, he was cheap. Grew up in the depression. And, yes, it is a pain when I want to upgrade anything... especially since that 1959 Wire insulation crumbles when you work with it. Therefore, in some cases my only option is to pull new cable. On the bright side, I don’t mind the extra peace of mind or being able to give myself some slack.
🙂Thanks, Grandpa, for being frugal and for teaching me how for those instances I need your frugality and your attention to quality. And, thanks for teaching dad about electricity so he could teach me! Can’t wait to see you in heaven!
That was indeed a penny wise a pound foolish. Those few inches makes a lot of difference when a hot connection occurs and you have trim back the wire when the socket is replaced. My dad was also from the depression era and his cost savings came back to bite me many a time. But I agree with you rather replace the old stuff, then try fixing it.
If it were me I'd replace all the old wiring if the insulation indeed crumbles when messed with. That's a fire waiting to happen.
@@ikonix360 Did you not read what I wrote? Did you miss the part about replacing the conductors? What about the part about having more peace of mind because of the new cable? (And, of course, the updated devices, grounding, etc.)
@@fomoco300k from what you wrote it looked like you only replaced cable in some cases.
@@mj3299 Agreed. He did the best he knew how. Like so many men through the generations, he was a furniture maker/farmer/industrial mechanic doing the best he could afford with the best practices he could acquire. The same is true of my great grandpa who built this house with recycled floor joists spiked in with 20 penny nails give or take 27” on center. My best guess is he laid them all out by eye with evenish spacing based on how many he was able to obtain. They’ve held up for 4 generations, but I’d have sure done it differently (assuming I could afford to), but then I have the education experience and skill sets to do it with less deflection from dead and live loads. I’m sure he never even heard those terms. He just built things as strong and durable as he could. That’s evidenced by the barn out back he built in 1908.
This is an old house, but each generation who’s lived in it has made it better in their own way. Now it’s my turn. 😁
As I have run into this issue before, one other option is to remove the old work box and verify how the wiring was actually run, and if you can get any slack from either simply rerouting the cable, or possibly pulling a staple that might be binding it also. If not, then it does give you an idea of how much nmb sheath that you need to add onto it so that the plastic box grip isn't bearing on just the insulation of the wires by themselves. Like I said, I have run into this issue many times from homeowners doing their own electrical work... Great video!
@@danielleclare2938 He said "old work box", though.
@@danielleclare2938, what part of "old work box" did you not understand? Apologize or piss off...
@@danielleclare2938 Removing a box nailed in place is an operation that takes only a few seconds in the careful hands of a skilled master electrician with the correct tools.
@@leepaul6630 You are correct, sir. And for an amateur such as myself, it takes about 5 minutes with a screwdriver and side cutters - and in one case, a hacksaw blade.
@@leepaul6630 Thanks my friend, you saved me the aggravation of having to post a comment directed at completely clueless “armchair electricians”.
Terrific explanation of this scenario. In a recent rehab situation I went the long road, and cut a channel in the drywall and installed a second junction box. Then was able to get correct length out of the original box and ran correct length to the new box. For sure the long road ! 😅
so, you installed elec. wiring under drywall compound and paint? 🤨
@@talpark8796 Perhaps you may have misunderstood. He couldn't have installed a second junction box under the drywall compound and paint, he just cut the drywall away, ( only using a narrow slit between the existing box and the location of the new junction box) to make it easier to run the new wire from the junction box over to the existing box, especially if the old wiring was stapled to the stud.
You should always test for power in both upper and lower parts of the receptacle because both sides could be independently wired.
it is called a split circut
I saw one of these a couple of months ago. Top run by a switch, bottom constant hot.
This is nice to know, Thank you. On a side note I used my ECX#1 yesterday to install an outlet. WOW, I am impressed on how it grips those screws.
Wonderful
1 inch out of the box is often a luxury. In one of my houses every outlet in the house had a "homeowner special" done whereby the prior homeowner had snipped the ground wire as close to the back of the box as possible. Apparently he thought the ground wire was either useless or just had some vendetta against it. Was an absolute nightmare trying to get my hands in the back there to extend the grounds.
hahaha. I replaced a wall light in my house and found the ground wire was about 1/2 inch long. Did the same thing here.
I don't know why people are so stubborn with that. They'll even deliberately reverse the polarity just to stick it to the man. It works, but you'll have a hair raising experience changing a light bulb if you aren't paying attention.
Those snap type connectors would come in handy compared to wire nuts in your situation I would guess.
I vote for vendetta.
Also for a ground, depending on the area’s code, can use a crimp connector to add an extension…
Great video!
I have been using the regular WAGO Connectors (so-to-speak) for about a year and they are perfect!
Also, a few months ago; I purchased the "(WAGO Lever nut)" connectors and used them for the second time most recently and they are not only easy to use but effective, too!
I had no luck with the Wago connectors. Thought it would be easy/cleaner than nuts, but no dice. The light and receptacles had no power. Made the same connections with nuts and voila, all worked as it should. Made no sense, as it was all wired the same exact way both times.
@@porkchop10 Some of these Wagos are dangerous and cannot handle a load and can cause a fire. I’m guessing these would be the cheap ch!nese crap ones.
Best DIY ever! Thank you
I ran into this problem and used a Wago to add an extension. Lo and behold, this was your final option! Good to know I came up with a solution that is ok to use lol
Been watching several of your videos. I’ve done some electrical here and there, but I appreciate your videos as I learn a lot. Keep up the good work. Subscribed.
I was hesitant to use wagos till i watched some of your videos and read the comments, many from electricians. What a game changer, so much faster and easier, especially in tight places. I’m just a homeowner who does many renos, but likes things done properly. I don’t want issues later on. Thanks for putting these videos out.
For sure, I wouldn't be surprised if Wagos really catch on for at least us DIYers.
CALL A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN instead of teaching DIY clowns to do their own wiring!
If the house burns down and the insurance company sees that a DIY person has been fiddling with the wiring, they can, and will, refuse to pay out an insurance claim.
As a retired electrical contractor with 50 years experience I can tell you folks that it's pretty easy to spot an amateur electrical installation.
@@bobmarshall3700 easy, cowboy. Plenty of people who DIY use wagos and don't burn their house down. You don't need to be a licensed electrician to know how to properly install an outlet. It isn't rocket science.
I would challenge your work vs my work any day of the week. When I install an outlet, I care about the outlet. When you install an outlet, you care about getting the job done as quickly as possible with the cheapest materials possible.
I use the commercial grade outlets and wagos. You use the bottom bin outlets and ten for cent wire nuts.
Wirenuts offer a significantly better connection surface (Read: safer) than wagos and should be used when they can. But when you can't, wagos are definitely acceptable and safe. From my experience, wagos are usually used when a wire is going to be connected and disconnected multiple times throughout its usage lifespan.
@@MrMegaBadazz that is patently false information.
I bought a lifetime supply of WAGO's after discovering them. A total gamechanger. Instead of dodging electrical jobs of the past around the house...I'm actually seeking them out! Thanks for showing another use for them that I had not yet faced before. WAGOs are even way better than the push-in connectors...I trust them more to not slip/slide off when pushing the wires back into the box.
For solid wire we use often the 2273 it is more compact then the wago „klick“ 221 and they are cheaper as well
@@Revy_yo The push-ins are nice but every time you re-work the outlet you are shorting the wires.
True
From an electrician. Step 1......go with option 3. Step 2......go home. Don't forget to test ⚡BOTH ⚡outlets before starting.
From a DIYer who's done minor electric stuff in 4 houses, I agree.
Any time you find a short wire in a box, it's because the previous guy took all the slack after the last staple before the box.
😂
Great explanation. Exactly what I use, also.
Wago is a little pricy but well worth the extra pennies.
6:15 Pro tip: Begin by making sure the wires you're grafting onto are indeed the Hot, Neutral and Ground wires. Sometimes you'll find the white and black are reversed on switch legs in older homes.
Good point, thanks for the feedback.
Which the outlet tester used in the beginning would have pointed out if it were the case.
@@waytospergtherebro last time I checked it’s pretty hard to use a plug checker on a switch.
@@BuschLatteBandit But he was not working on a switch. If you open up a switch and only see 2 or 3 wires Hot, Neutral, maybe a Ground then you already know that is a switch leg and no actual neutral is going to that switch. Good electricians would know that and a multimeter would tell you the difference when you can not use a plug tester. You do know how to use a multimeter right?
@@jonesgang blah blah blah
That is a remodel box which is easy to remove from the wall . Remove it then search the wiring path . You should have a staple within 9 to 12 inches from the box .
Sometimes you can remove the staple and gain enough extra wire to get your 6 inches .
If not , option 3 is the way to go …
I like to tape my Wago's closed and wrap around the outlet to cover the terminal screws. But Wago's are so nice and smaller than wire nuts. Great video.
Thank you for this info! This is my biggest problem right now. Love your videos!
Thanks for your videos! NO unnecessary foul language. Very informative 👏 👌 👍
Bizarre comment, Brant. Are you used to seeing DIY tutorial videos with foul language? You watch weird stuff, man.
While we’re pointing out the absence of things that no one expects to see in these videos anyways, do you also want to thank the creator for not showing gratuitous pornography either? Hooray! (So bizarre!)
@@FactsMatter I'm an automobile technician. You can't hardly find a tip video from other mechanics without foul language and I don't know how to do it all.
Excellent, clear, concise presentation. You are a great teacher!!!
Thank you for the good advice. I'll be using option 3 on wiring. What a difference a video makes
Really appreciate learning about Wagos, ECX screwdrivers, and commercial-grade receptacles from your channel. I have some old loose outlets to be replaced. Great tip about the short wires, I've seen one or two in this house.
I would never use the wago connectors the are not a tight fit which causes heat I work at industrial poultry plant and have seen so many of these connectors burnt up.
@@7attech5486 no doubt there is much truth here , but having been in a chicken plant or two, I would think that the difference in loads would be considerable.
@@7attech5486 Perhaps they wouldn't be the best choice for an industrial application. I am referring to residential use. Just recently I helped a neighbor whose heater stopped working because the wire nut connections weren't properly done, so they melted and smoked. I didn't know about wagos then, but I see how they can make those connections especially with stranded conductors nearly foolproof.
@Jake Schroyer.
Sounds like the Wago connectors were overloaded. Each Wago connector series has a current rating that must not be exceeded. They sell industrial rated connectors and waterproof connectors for harsh environments.
@@jsswizard some was overloaded but most wasn't but anyways .... . . If I can't trust them, I won't trust them anywhere
I was an apprentice electrician 45 years ago. I was trusted to do the second fix on a council housing development. I cut a few cables too short and over compensated by pulling them through a bit too forcefully with my pliers. All good until they failed the final circuit test.
I gave up sparking to become a fireman, it seemed appropriate.
For one mistake that you learned a lesson from. No one is perfect, it’s how we learn. I’m sure master electricians made stupid mistakes during their lifetime.
I could have written your comment. Council estate rewires, 45 years ago. 2 days per house, some easy as home owners had moved furniture, some even lifted carpet, lino and floor boards to enable us more time to do a tidy job. All the houses were the same design flipped symmetrically for semi detached.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@wonton8983 Ah 2 day rewires are a thing of the past now sadly (at least I hope they are). Occupied rewires are a right pain, had to do quite a few when I started out on my own but I never do them these days too much hassle.
@@stevoc9930 Back then it was 1 light and 1 power point in every room except the kitchen which had 2 power points, and a cooker outlet, 2 way switch for stairs and a hot water circuit and 1 outside light, that was it. Nowadays it will take longer just for the internet set up.
Very good presentation. I had to replace a receptacle with short wires. Thanks for a good professional tip without all the goofy stuff so common with these.
Excellent demo. This is a common problem where I live (homes built in the early 50s).
Good video. One recommendation is to test that both outlets are dead, rare scenarios have left one outlet energized due to it being on a different circuit. I know that takes some serious monkeying but I’ve seen it demonstrated by an electrician so just a good safety step to check them both. 👍🏻
That solves a big problem. Option 3. Without a whole lot of stress.
Fantastic! I was just trying to figure out what to do about this as I am redoing my kitchen and the numbnuts who wired this house, probably an owner builder, made every dang wire too short. This is especially hard to work with when replacing old sockets with a GFCI type outlet near the sink. took me half an hour to do it, but I know it wasn't to code so just as I was thinking about calling an electrician to figure it out, I saw this video. The Wago's are definitely the way to solve my problems as i replace all the sockets and covers throughout this 51 year old house. I did make sure all the wires in my box were proper according to my father in law who is a journeyman electrician. And all the sockets seem to be wired as needed, just really short wires.
Hey Jim, you will really like the Wago 221 lever nuts. When you are working with limited wire and tight spaces they really standout as compared to standard wire nuts. Best of luck on your project 👍
Thank you very much for sharing this. I'll be getting some of these soon. Found them on Amazon but hopefully local hardware stores sell them.
Another option that is sometimes possible is to put a second outlet or maybe even a switch between where the run comes from and the box you are working on is, this way all you have to do is make a run between the two boxes. It sure beats running all the way back to the service panel.
I'm learning this and I'd like to see what you're referring to. Hopefully you can make a video.
@Michael Katt That’s brilliant! You know if it was a govt job they would demo all the walls and ceilings to replace the run all the way back to the panel.
Sometimes changing it to a 2 gang box can also get you just the bit more of wire you need…
@@aure818v no video needed if you can visualize what I say. You use the old wire to pull a new wire down the wall, and cut in an old work box somewhere that the old wire will reach. Fish the old wire and the new wire to the old work box. You're basically making better use of a new junction box.
I do the old double box double plug a s well.
I got rid of baseboard heat in our 1958 house. I was going to remove all the old cable and found the local code had it stapled every two feet! So it's still there.😃
I was planning on installing central heat/air in my home and getting rid of the baseboard heat and the oil furnace altogether. That way my house is 100% electric and powered by solar!
Brilliant! I now know I need option 3! Whoo hoo I can hopefully fix the open outlet I left last year because short wires! Thank you.
Option 3 for me in most cases in my older home. Thanks for the video.
Option 4:
The wires are so short, or had to be made short due to melting from a failed or improperly installed outlet, that you can't even do option 3. Either move the outlet box in the direction the wire is coming from, or add a junction box in that direction where you can connect as much wire as you need to feed the outlet. Much more of a pain, because you need to cut holes in the wall, and patch if you're moving rather than adding a new box.
Exactly. Move the outlet towards the run .........
In this installation I think that is down. In any case take out the old work box, and define the path, then move the outlet that direction, and put a blank plate over the old work box.
if adding wire from a junction box or another outlet box no patch is needed or possible because all splices have to be exposed and not tucked behind wall due to nec code read my other comments to see safe and code corrections
@@davidicousgregorian The junction box in my example has a blank plate, making the connections accessible. It's entirely compliant with code.
You don't need to patch just blank it off
@@gerdberg4188 Well, I congratulate you on your ability to mount an outlet box to a stud without making a hole larger than the outlet box itself. Mere mortals such as myself have to make a larger hole, and patch it afterwards.
Nice video ,I have come across so many short wire boxes in my time rebuilding old homes and moving bearing walls for additions that this video was close to my heart!
Push in connectors like the Wago and modern connectors were nowhere to be found in the 70's and 80's ! So ,McGyverism was the rule of the day . Twisting ,soldering, using mechanical bugs ,and heavy duty electrical tape was the fix. It really sucked ,but rewiring totally would have been astronomical expense on some of these big jobs. Hard cement plaster with steel screen backing ,really fun stuff! Not!
Push in connectors would of saved me tons of frustration and countless hours ! Big thumbs up .
Thank you, 3 great tips in 1 well planned video. We appreciate your help.
thank you for this! ive done it the first two ways in the past. no clue about the third way. thanks for the link. learn something new every day!
When faced with this problem on outlets that are in the usual position of about 16 inches off the floor, I have cut a hole above the old box and installed a new one to gain the necessary wire. Of course, this means you have to patch the drywall. But this might not be a big deal if you are doing a renovation anyway. But the intended use of the outlet needs to be taken into consideration. In my case, a space heater was regularly plugged in, so pig tailing some wire extensions did not seem wise. In your example, the position on the wall and the wood paneling gave you few options.
Just had something similar where I replaced w/ a deeper larger volume box and jumpers/extensions and used 2-hole connectors like you showed. The push-ins are awesome, but the lever-typre are even easier IMO, just hard to find at most home centers - and more expensive. I may never use wire nuts again. :)
They are invaluable when connecting most new lighting fixtures, where you get a crappy little piece of stranded & need to connect to a larger ga. Romex. I tin the stranded first and the rest is gravy. Don't know about code, but it keeps the stranded stiff enough to properly seat in the push-in types. Where have they been all of my life? ;)
I have read that the lever type also work by just pushing the wire in but I haven't verified that yet.
The push ins are easy, but the connection can loosen over time. Not as much of a concern for things like light fixtures, but for receptacles, they move a little every time something is plugged in, and over time the wires can back out, and the spring tension in the connector itself can loosen. Then they get hot, potentially hot enough to start fires. Not SUPER common, but it does happen. Be careful where you use them.
@@northlinejct9608 honestly only a couple times, bit I've opened up a couple and had the wire just pull right out of them. I figure if I've personally seen it a couple times, while it may not really be common, it's enough to be a concern. Sometimes your choices are limited, but when I have the option, I know I can make sure a good twisted spice with a wire nut won't come loose. Plus, have you ever really looked closely at one of them and how they jnterface with the wire? The contact area between the wire and the metal in the wagon is very small.
Amazon has great prices on the WAGO 221 connectors
Those WAGOs are a beautiful thing. I just learned about them several months ago.
Great video. I also learned how you are supposed to knock out the tab in the old work box!
For twist on wire nuts I use a style where the cap unscrews from the insert. The insert is made of metal with a screw which can be tightened to hold the attaching wires together tightly. Then just screw the cap back on to protect them. This style is usually black and made of bakelite type epoxy. This type is far less likely to come off.
Marr Connectors , from a generation ago !
Another option would be to remove that box and check for a reachable staple that you can then pull more wire through the box.
You _threw_ the box? Where did you throw it? Did you not need the box?
@@coloradostrong its obviously his first day on the job, it my be his last day if he keeps throwing boxes , they cost good money. Maybe he gets mad and throws things.
Sound, proven advice…..and, amazingly simple.
Those wire connectors are great! Thanks for the informative instructional video.
I’ve struggled with this for years, wires were pulled tight (think guitar string tight)and cut short in my house. Bakelite boxes as well. I’m sure they save $5 in building the house by doing this. Plus it had a Federal Pacific breaker box with no main breaker, a real joy to do any electrical work
Same here.. except my light switches appeared to be Bakelite or something similar.
Fpe lol fire probability enhanced with red hell fire handles yup never heard of them lol
Great explanation video. Although an open wall would be good to show here. Option 2 is clever, but probably a waste of time. I can’t remember ever opening walls and finding wiring that’s not stapled. It wouldn’t pass, and almost all houses were inspected when built. The reason option 1 works is that a short loop is left between box and first staple for this exact reason.
It wouldn't pass doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you can't pull the wire option 2 is at the very least worth a try.
@@clamboni9 the
TIL that US is so fond of stapling cables to immovable structures... Whereas residential installations in Sweden use PVC conduits almost exclusively where it's super easy to pull new wires in.
@@u1zha , using conduit in a residential setting makes it possible to remove/add wiring from box to box if needed. That is a definite plus. The problem is the crazy amount of extra time it takes to pipe, then go back and pull wire. As far as stapling to studs, one of the reasons is so no excess wire gets left behind walls hanging freely for someone to inadvertantly cut into when cutting holes in wall for other projects.
This is a beautifully done video! Bravo!
I live in a condo so options 1 & 2 would not work for me. You made the option 3 so easy to follow! Thank you so much for this video. 👍👍
On an old-work box like that, you could've also pretty easily pulled the box forward to see if additional cable could be pulled forward. After all, when they installed that box, they had to get that cable into the box, then push the box into the wall, so there's probably slack behind that box.
or if not near the stud, could always put in a double gang box (cutting out on the wire supply side) and that may give enough to connect the 1st outlet recepticle.
Yes but only in rework boxes. Cables are stapled withing 6" of the box and the cable is pulled tight in new construction as every inch left on the spool is money saved in material
@@matt123231: Did you read the first clause?
@@ncooty I dont know what an "old box is" Rework boxes and rework requires AC90(BX) and always has for mechanical protection. Rework wiring cannot be secured . You have two types of installations Rework and "New construction". New Construction describes how the circuit was run( original construction regardless of age). If the wire is Romex its strapped and New Construction if not its Rework(BX) . No ever leaves leaves slack in New Construction inspectors dont like it and its wasted material and money out of the contractors pocket. By the way Ac90 was originally invented to stop Rats from eating wires during the great New York infestation the slang BX was coined because the Bronx was the worst
An old work box is what electricians call the thing you are calling a "rework box".
There is absolutely no code that suggests that you cannot use NM in an old work box.
For example, if my customer wants a receptacle that is to be positioned between two studs in a gutted house, I will often leave the cable stapled to a stud with the intent that I will cut a hole in the drywall after it goes up to install the box.
In which case, the cable would be stapled within 6 in of the height of the old work box.
Protip: using the exact meaning of the NEC, I will place a staple within 6 in of the box -BUT- make a loop in The wire so that more wire could be pulled into the box if necessary.
Any electrician who is worrying about 6" of NM, is a cheap-ass fool who is competing based on the most nitpicky aspect of price rather than quality of the job.
Compared to the potential benefit of having some extra wire, worrying about 6 in of NM at a cost of 20 to 30 cents is ridiculous. In a three-story Victorian twin, I'm likely to install between 100 and 130 locations. So in a full rehab, you were talking about less than $50. LoL ... I can't imagine presenting myself so poorly that a customer would not want to spend an extra $50 to have me do the work over another contractor. That is definitely not someone I would want to work for, so I would gladly lose that bid.
You could also use Wago 221-2411 splice connector, although not a big deal, it would eliminate the u-turn on the pigtail. When using an old work plastic box, you can break off the receptacle mounting ears for a better fit.
I actually want to use those (221-2411) but they are tough to find in the states.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs Scott, you can find them online, but not through Amazon yet from what I can tell.
I never knew these existed. But certainly makes sense. Seems to me much easier and cleaner using these.
Ordered 221-2411 on ebay, $20 for 20
I would never use a wago I've seen so many get hot and melt burn up, if you do splice use something that is gonna be tight fitting connection
Very helpful. In my days never had these options
I love Wago or Degson or iDeal for strong connections. I first used iDeal for replacing Ballasts in Fluorescent fixtures. Especially when you are standing on a 30’ ladder. Great video
I just solder new wires to the old along with an approved shrink tubing cover. It's simple, easy and lasts forever!
Not a standard practice
@@RDEnduro Yes but a better practice then using a wago. Wagos actually have quite a bit more resistance then a wire nut or solder joint. They also take up more space. Great Scott did a video on wagos showing how much power they can draw and it is a bit concerning to me for long periods. Resistance = heat = expansion. How many years of expansion and contraction can a wago withstand? 10, 20, 30?
The 3 inch and 6 inch requirements in the video are located in the 2020 NEC at 300.14 The 1/4 inch requirement is in 314.17(B)(2). Don't forget to torque the screws NEC 110.14(D)
With older wire I usually use a small piece of emery cloth (sand paper works too) to "sand" the end of the wire to make sure the contact is clean.
Option 3 is my go-to method. It saves a lot of time.
Very good video for DIY'ers.
If you're going to install extensions to the old wires, I would also recommend using pliers to pry the plastic clamp enough to slide about 2 inches of cable sheathing between the old wires and the plastic tab to prevent wear on the insulation of the old wires, thus making it safer.
what are you talking about?
you can't slide out, because the wire is too short.
you can't slide in, because there is no sheathing on that end of the wire.
not safe stretches romex or rips in wall at staple see my comments for only safe options also never use 2 different power sources or neutrals same neutrals only
@@James-bv4nu Let me clarify. When dealing with old wires, especially if there is cloth insulation, or the two wires only as in knob and tube wiring, I like to take empty sheathing that I have cut off of Romex wiring and slip it around the old wiring between the wires and the clamps whether plastic tabs or metal screw down connector clamps. This prevent further wear on the old insulation of the old wires that may even be brittle.
That, of course, is only if you're not going to replace the old wiring.
Great video. I have used wire nuts in this position before but those wago connectors are so much better to use
Wago’s have a high failure rate. A properly installed wire nut is much more safe.
@@numberoneduno7265 you got some proof of that? Seen plenty of testing of wagos and never seen any suggestion of high failure rates. In the U.K. they’re the de-facto choice for all electricians now.
@@Pugjamin
My proof is in my experience as an IBEW trained electrician with over 24 years in the trade. I have done electrical contractor work for Apple Computer, Chevron, Shell, Arco, Proctor and Gamble, Aerojet Rocketdyne, Amazon, as well as several Pharmaceutical companies, just to name a few. I have personally witnessed the failure rate, and have been tasked with troubleshooting problems that have been caused by Wago’s. They expand and contract over time and become loose. It carries the current through a connection as thin as a knife blade. They are banned at every single company I mentioned. All due to experiencing them fail at one time or another. Telling me that the UK uses them means absolutely nothing to me after what I have personally experienced.
I think the wago solution is the quickest solution and just did this a couple days ago in a box I installed inside a new kitchen cabinet for installing under the cabinet lighting.
Another method I used in a bathroom was when I replaced a single outlet receptacle box with a three gang box containing two duplex outlets and a switch to a new light bar installed above a new medicine cabinet. Instead of using wagos I made a cut out directly below the old box and installed a box under the sink top inside the lavatory cabinet as a junction box and then made the wire connecting to the three gang box long enough to solve the problem.
The last one is used on light towers they are awesome thanks great video
Great video, and a very common problem. I just started using the WAGO connectors and I love them. Thanks for sharing this useful hint.
wago connectors. That's what he's saying. Thank you for clarifying it
I would never use the wago connectors they are not a tight fit which causes heat I work at industrial poultry plant and have seen so many of these connectors burnt up.
@@7attech5486 correct electrician 25 years here , they will cause resistance and resistance = heat
Also an electrician here. A nice tight splice with a wirecap leaves no gaps where arcing can occur either.
@@esl4058 yep would never use them its no different then back stabbing a receptacle there is just a little blade contacting the wire , might be fine forever on a lighting circuit with a few amps but a circuit with a constant 6 to 12 amps on it they would be a hazard
I've found old Knob and Tube wiring with the splices soldered, 100 years later it was still good
The old know and tube if it was done right is a good look at old quality craftsmanship. You can tell when someone really put some pride in their work. Some of it is beautiful
When I started, with my dad romex was considered a cheep dangerous half assed way to do things. We did everything knob and tube and when done correctly it's still second only to pipe and wire (Which is how I did my own house - and dozens of commercial and industrial buildings).
The problem with knob and tube, especially with the old asphalt linen insulation, is when some Bob Villa covers it with insulation. K&T depends on air around it to cool the conductors and when it gets burred overheating,,,,,and 451 degrees F can occur.
learning electrical code and about WAGO connectors was helpful. thanks!
I'd recommend the Ideal Spliceline connectors for this vs. the Wago. I always keep a dozen or so in my bag for this exact problem.
When using an “old work” box, don’t forget to snap the plaster ears off the receptacle. This allows the receptacle to properly seat into the box creating a flush surface for the cover plate.
Wait, how does that work? I always thought those ears was what held the box in the wall...
Star Gazer, on the receptacle or outlet, there are 4 round tabs, 2 above the top screw and 2 below the bottom screw. The metal is scored so you can break them off when using an old work box. If you look closely at the blue box, the face of it does not sit flush with the wall. However, there are indentations which allow the outlet to fit against the wall but only if you snap off those 4 circular tabs.
Bro put a layer of tape over the screw heads right before you seat the outlet.
@@kirkmuffie7542 pfft, you new to service calls?
@@kirkmuffie7542 plastic box dude….I
Only do that in metal boxes
I've relocated the box a few inches in the direction the wire is coming from before, then patched. Not usually an option for aesthetic reasons.
I don't work in residential but I love wago's. They are UL listed, work great and therefore ok with me. It's a great product and I especially like the ones with the release lever.
Great tips. Gonna save this video for the next time I need to open up an outlet.
I noticed that an "old work" box was used in the video. When installing a receptacle in this type of box, the ears, or tabs, of the receptacle should be removed so the receptacle will fit within the confines of the box tabs providing for a more flush installation before installing the cover plate. Great video!
If you remove those clips I would check to see if you are still meeting code and while you are at it verify that the wire nut or Wago connectors are meeting code.
Thanks so much. Live in an older home and was wondering what the acceptable (and safe) solution to these situations was.
In the UK we would put a piece of green/yellow insulation tubing on the Earth wire(s), so that there is no chance of the folded wire actually touching any live conductors. Also, almost all screwed connections on the rear of our sockets or switches have the conductors pushed into shrouded connectors (moulded into the rear of the socket or switch) before tightening the securing screws (no 'J' hooks needed, though thinner wires are normally bent back on themselves to give more copper for the securing screw to 'bite' into. In a 'loop' situation with two wires per connection, both wires are twisted together before inserting into the connector.) Very interesting to see our our American cousins do it! And I'm a great fan of the Wego connectors; a lot faster than the old plastic strip connectors!
Heatshrink tubing, yes, yes.
Great informative video but if I could offer a tip, you should always check the tightness of the unused hot and neutral screws on the receptacle.
BugCrush3r,
In many if not most code jurisdictions it is now required that you use a torque screwdriver on screw secured connections which helps ensure proper tightness.
Yep. This is always very easy to overlook
Option 2B... Try and drop the box and see if theres any slack behind it. Once in a while, you'll see a wire drop from above, but hit the bottom of the box. A simple rotation of the box could free up 3 inches...
Thanks fir this great idea , safety and right way per code .
I agree with this counsel. I missed any mention of turning off the circuit breaker first.
Maybe a word of caution to the viewer (since they may not have a lot of experience or knowledge: when "up-grading" from a 15 amp to a 20 amp receptacle, first be sure that you have 12 ga wire ALL the way back to the breaker panel and a 20 amp circuit breaker. If not, someone may try to use a 20 amp appliance and either keep blowing the breaker, or worse, overload the wire and start a fire.
Exactly, just throwing a 20amp outlet to one receptacle, does not mean it or any in the line (including lights) are now 20amps. Life is messy, assuming it is not can be hazardous.
I came here hoping to find this as a top comment. He stated it was 14 guage, and I thought, why a 20 amp outlet? Commercial grade is fine, but you're going to have blown breakers if you're running a true 20 amp appliance. If you also go upgrade the breaker, then you're likely going to have a even bigger problems (fire).
@@crouffer Exactly, maybe not fire, but what ever you are running ... saw, hair dryer, etc ... it is going to be hard on it.
It is always a good idea to try and keep lights and outlets separate if possible. And give an idea of what the appliance might be getting plugged into.
I would go one further and just pay for the electrician and save your house and your life
@@drewroy22 idk, yes there is a tiny risk. But I had this brother in law, who was always working on his house. He left home at 10, military at 17, trainyard before too long. Even though he made hilarious repairs and add ons, and big plans. -Hey at least he worked on his home, and that made my sister happy. Anything she wanted, he would at least try to make it happen, and all the money he could have spent in repairs... well he made sure he moved his wife and his sister into a nice home in a retirement community before he died.
God help the poor people who tried renovating his old house.
You can also insert a (solid) wire in a Wago connector without opening it first, it is mentioned in their datasheet.
Wago’s are the way to go here for sure. Another idea is to use stranded wire for the extension pigtails. They will fold into the box a lot easier than solid wire will.
Thank you for this info. Wasn't aware of the wago method. But you should also say something about the ground wire. WHen you fold it into the box, be careful it isn't touching anything on the outlet.
I have been using wago for years now. Got me out of more than one fix. Easy to use. My fingers don't get cramped twisting wire nuts anymore. Highly recommended.
I think there's a fourth option if one is doing the work either in a garage/workshop or if the "fix" will be hidden. The option I'm thinking about is determine which direction the wires are coming from in the wall and then to instal a junction box further upstream from the wall plugs so one has sufficient wires in the junction box to meet code. Then run new wires from the junction box to the old plug box. I put the junction box lower down on the wall and only had to fish the wires a short distance.
Why would you want to go through the trouble of throwing another junction box into the mix when you can just use the junction box to which your outlet is already mounted? I can imagine this is only useful when your outer sheathing is to short. In the end the result is the same as option three because you will have to use a wire nut or wago to connect the two wires together in both cases.
Great tips! My son has the same issue in his older home. Many will make their comments, Especially Electrical savvy people, but Most people don't want to spend alot of time solving this issue; just get it done, in a Quick safe manner, # 3 and be done with it, and go Fishing, or get instant ," Wife Points" .
There's a variant of option #2 that I use. Instead of taking the wires to the panel, just cut them closer to where they go down onto the basement and use a junction box and from there run a new wire up to your outlet. Now if you don't mind working on the panel itself, then rather just cut the cable farther back, pull it on the outlet side so you have more cable in the box, use a junction box and run new cable to the panel box instead. This way might be easier if it would be hard to run the cable through the wall but easier to the panel, but if it is easy on the wall side then just use method one.
never use option 1 see my comments above for only safe options fire hazard is option 1
@@davidicousgregorian I Don't understand what are you trying to say. In the same sentence you say not to use option number 1 and then you say option number one is the safe option.... also are you saying my option number 1 or the videos option number 1, since you commented on my comment I would think your refer to mines. And you also state for others to look at your comment above.... I dn't see any other comments above mines so again, I'm lost. Either ways my options 1 and 2 are literally the same, add a junction box, safe and up to code, If not please write below this comment as to why, that way other people can find the comment rather than looking for it "above" and be safe, which is all that matter.
@@davidicousgregorian If there is known slack - there is no issue to pull out wire. H had to reroute a box for a smoke dectector and there was a lot of extra wire to safely pull out.
Your idea is great! At the moment I'm looking at releasing old two wire with 14/2. The problem is the HVAC folks back in the day put the 6 in. vent up against the junction boxes. Now I have to remove the force hot air section to move the junction box. So MUCH fun!🥺
I myself prefer the back wire method you mentioned.
I got a double wide in 2017 that was made in 1996.
First thing I did was replace every outlet as they were all back wired with the old style that you merely push the wire in.
I used the back wire method you mentioned and so far haven't had a single issue with any outlet.
You had to put the wire behind the little plate and still tighten the screw, right? Not just stabbing the wire into the little hole in the back of the receptacle? The ones that have the plate behind the screw are great, but the ones where you stab the wire into the back of the receptacle can loosen over time and can cause the connection to get dangerously hot, hopefully only hot enough to burn up the device and not start a fire.
You're the best. Used your v. to resolve my issue. Wago is the best.
Excellent teaching. Excellent editing. It is obvious you spent a lot of effort to make the video efficient learning for those of us watching. It also appears you are a born teacher. Thank you.
Very good video and the use of excellent Wago connectors is becoming more common in UK and Europe.
However, one small observation is that the European (and UK standards) would insist on the addition of green/yellow insulated sleeving of the bare ground (earth) wire to stop the chance of shorting to the hot (live) or neutral terminals after fixing the fitting to the wall.
ground shorting the neutral isn't really a big deal. it only really matters for the live.
@@InfernosReaper yeah but since in the EU we're using RCD's it is indeed a pretty big deal - beause a short between ground and neutral would be enough to trip the breaker
@@larskruse7575 Fair enough. I was thinking more the US where those aren't used on everything.
Hell, some places in the US have connections between neutral and ground to try to do some lazy and cheap alternative to proper grounding. I have no idea if that was *ever* acceptable by code, but I've ran into it and it's been infuriating every time.
Great tutorial! Although, if option 1 doesnt work, its likely option 2 wont either. If not able to pull enough slack to get necessary length (option 1) cable behind wall is likely secured to stud in wall with romex staples. Option 2 would be out of the question as well. Only mention because would likely save D.I.Y.ers time it takes to connect new wire to old, and climbing around in attic or crawlspace only to find out what option 1 pretty much already indicated.
1 and 2 are unsafe fire possible read my comments for only safe options which are code
Wire staples should be banned, and PVC conduits for ALL wires should be the norm. If that adds a couple of grand to the cost of the house, so be it.
@@HeWhoIsWhoHeIs welcome to America , land of free speech
@@davidicousgregorian how TF did you interpret comment as being relative to free speech? Where am I depriving anyone of free speech?
Your opinions which you have recommended are excellent tutorial. You can select which option would fit 👍
Good advice as I've used wago's many years ago.. I would not even waste time trying to pull in another cable and just go directly to the Wago connectors. But then again I'm not an electrician just a retired engineer.
Can you provide more tips on how to effectively fold and fit wires in a crowded workbox?
One of the problems I've run into with pigtails is that the extra wire nuts and wires take up more volume in the box which makes it hard to fold all the wires neatly into the box, especially if I have a thick GFCI which also take up space.
Use a deep box for a gfi.
There's no easy way to do it. Fold the wires top to bottom of the box, push them away from the back of the outlet. The best advice is to work with the breaker off to avoid worrying if you will get shocked moving the wires around.
I'm an electrician. Some boxed are just harder than others to get perfect. The trick is to have the exact amount of wire needed. Not too short, and definately not too long. A wire that is short obviously takes less space but a too short one will not bend very well, and you don't want to use a lot of force to close the outlet. You have to use every bit of space even if it means making the wires longer sometimes. You ideally want to pre-fold the wire to the shape that it "wants" to be when it goes back into the box so minimal force is needed. If you mean a junction box with just a lid, you simply have to play tetris. WAGO has also released a new version that is way thinner than the 221, but I'm not sure if it's available in the US. Worst case scenario, you may have to install a bigger or second box and re-route to that one.
And this goes without saying, but you need to layer the wires. First you do all E's, push them along the walls to the back, then do the same with N and H.
At 7:30, where the outlet is being secured to the box, the little break away tabs on the outlet should be removed when being installed in this shape of box. Notice when the screws were tightened, the pressure pushed the tabs outward. This can interfere with the cover. This can cause everything to wiggle and work loose, and it can also keep the cover from laying flat against the wall. That style of box will allow the mount to lay in a small recess when the tabs are removed.
Who cares showoff
@@stevenpersinger6577 well this tip literally just helped me this morning, did someone piss in your cereal?
Good tip.
What exactly are those tabs for in this modern age?
Why would i do that on a dead end, duplex outlet? then only one plug would work... the tabs are for if you wanted one plug to be operated by a switch and the other constantly powered i.e. a bedroom with a switched outlet that has no overhead light. the tabs are a bridge between outlets, this is a single pole outlet