Are lights useless on defensive handguns? Ken Hackathorn comments.
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- čas přidán 22. 02. 2024
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Ken Hackathorn made comments about lights being mostly useless for civilians to use on their handguns in a Wilson Combat video. We share our thoughts on weapons mounted lights (WML). - Zábava
A better argument would be: your only light shouldn’t be a WML. If you only have one flashlight, then make it a handheld. In other words, a WML doesn’t replace a handheld, but that doesn’t make WML’s useless, either.
I wish I could say I'm amazed that so many people can't seem to grasp this point, but sadly, I'm not.
@@eriggle83 The Fuddery in the comments section is getting deep.
@theunknownknowsBYvoivod Yes, it is. What does surprise me is that there's so much of it amongst MACs viewers. Maybe it's just a bunch of KH or WC fans who found this in their feed today? If that's the case, then it makes perfect sense.
Agreed. If I can only have one, then go handheld, but of course that premise will never happen…
Exactly. There are so many excellent pocket-sized flashlights out there that there's no reason not to have one on you at all times. A WML is a specific piece of kit meant for a specific use.
He went full Fudd. "When's the last time you needed that?" I've never needed to use any firearm in self-defense, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop carrying one.
What he meant is that if lacking on a camping trip. When is the last time you honestly used a trenching tool on your overnight camping with your kids? Same thing. Save weight by leaving at home thungsnyiure. Ever gonna actually use.
@Hattiesburg9333 I've used one on every camping trip to dig my fire pit. What's your point? Where did he say anything about camping? What does that have to do with anything being discussed here? WMLs have become so small that the weight is negligible.
The instant you resorted to name calling your opinion meant absolutely nothing.
*I love the stupid kids nowadays. Someone older than you says something? They must be an old stupid person!*
Do you know what the fun thing is about being an old stupid person? You got old because you really were not stupid. And we enjoy watching smug young people make mistakes. Sometimes a reset needs to occur. Sometimes the reset is funny.
@@eriggle83oh my. Didn't do well in school?
The point is, and I'll keep it simple for you is that you should carry the gear you will likely need and not carry gear that you've never needed and are unlikely to.
Sort of that "yeah, I always keep a gas mask handy because the refinery twenty miles away may explode" attitude.
When is the last time you needed a fire extinguisher ? But I have one, actually several.
Much like weapon lights fire extinguisher are pointless.
@@robertsears46 Please stop posting, youre just trolling.
@@smtbigelow I am the ONLY one NOT trolling and being a FUDD. You are trolling and being a FUDD like everyone else that things weapon lights are a good thing.
@@smtbigelow And poorly at that.
Actually a fire blanket makes much more sense to keep for small fires especially in the kitchen. Fire extinguisher is to carve yourself an exit route if you are encircled, so keep an extinguisher in your bedroom, fire blanket in the kitchen
Just because a Wilson combat weapon is extremely expensive doesn't help when it's dark and can't find a light switch on the wall
When is the last time you actually needed the sidearm? By the logic he used, “if you haven’t needed it, you don’t need it” you’ll never need to carry in the first place.
That is not what he said.
@@Petetonyit's exactly what he said in regards to weapon lights, this is just taking his same logic and applying it on a broader scale.
I used my side arm just the other day.
I have used it several times. But not once have I or anyone else ever used there weapon light.
TRUTH. Plus, the extra weight helps a little with muzzle flip.
@@robertsears46 You're high. More people use their weapon light LARPing about their house and fucking around with their gun than use their weapon. There's no good reason as to why you wouldn't have a light. Police, CIA, FBI, etc. have all used flashlights along with their sidearms for decades, the fact that you can mount it to the underside rail doesn't make it less effective. The idea that you're somehow adding bulk and complexity via pistol light is also idiotic - it's less complex than the janky holding techniques taught by Hackborn in his DVDs.
He said you don't need a light unless your LE/Mil then went on to use a cop as an example of misusing a weapon light.
Cops and military put forth some of the greatest examples of what not to do. 🤣
he's still correct though
@@AlexN2022 He’s not though.
@@DocMitchell69 well, fair enough, I didn't provide any argumentation.
LE/Military go after the target. That's their job description. So they need tools to do that. Also, they work in teams, so tactics are different.
Civilians are only required - and allowed! - to defend against an immediate threat.
If it's so dark you can't see the threat, the threat can't see you. You don't go after him, you disengage.
In your own house, where you cannot disengage, you know where the light switch is.
@AlexN2022 ok but why would I rely on the assumption I can get to the light switch when I can just mount a light to my gun?
Here is how having a light on my pistol saved someone's life and save me from a mess.
Woke up to someone in my room at 2am. Grabbed my gun off the night stand and beamed him with the light. First thing I noticed was no weapon and he was dressed nice. Told him to stop and put his hands where I could see them and held him until the cops showed up.
Turns out he was a drunk college kid that used to rent the same house. Got drunk and thought he was home. Having a little on my gun saved his life.
You need a dog if someone got in your room before you woke up. Jesus
Thats a stretch. Not sure I believe the college kid or you ??
He was talking about your carry gun not your home defense gun.
Though would it have been much different if you had just turned on a bedside lamp?
The thing about pointing flashlights (especially high power ones) is you flashbang yourself when shone at a mirror or even the glass of a window or large framed picture. And especially if you're not 100% (like literally just woken up) you can mistakenly think a flashlight is being aimed at you when it's just a reflection, you don't get much context to recognize your own reflection it's just a blinding point of light. You don't have that problem turning on the light like normal.
Also it's a problem that all the intruder can see is a flashlight, you're not having any deterrent effect of displaying a firearm, a drunk who is more violent may just think he's being irritated by a guy trying to dazzle him with a bright light and is not deterred from attacking but instead - illegitimately - takes it as provocation.
Illumination is very important but you need to be realistic about what is the best use of resources around you.
What if it was a cop?
Maybe he shouldn't have been there, maybe he found the drunk outside with the door open and mistakenly believed the drunk when he said it was his house so when the drunk invites the cop into "his house" the cop strolls in totally not expecting to find you in your bedroom and what does he see? A guy whooping out a pistol with a WML and aiming it at him. He's liable to shoot you.
I know it's not very "tactical" to illuminate yourself by just turning on the lights, but you're not clearing out caves in the mountains of Afghanistan. This is a civilian peacetime situation. For practical considerations, you might want to consider laying all your cards on the table and calling their bluff, you're in your own home, you should be able to stack the deck in your favor without having to resort to subterfuge of hiding in the dark while they're blinded in the light.
Am I overthinking this?
You may not like to overthink things but if you end up in court no one will be able to convince a jury "guys, don't overthink this" and by then it will be way too late to really think about it. When you're in court it will be presented as "how could you have not thought of this, it's obvious".
@@Treblaine Too long to read, yes you are overthinking this.
I like the option of being able to distinguish friendly/foe, in low/no light conditions.
The problem with using a WML to do that is you have to point a gun at someone before you've distinguished whether they are friend or foe.
So you need an independent light source and to use that first. And when the threat isn't present you need to switch back to that independent light source, you can't wave your gun around everywhere sweeping with the light.
If you cannot tell if someone is “friend or foe” then you should not be drawing your gun, and you sure as Hell shouldn’t be pointing a loaded gun at an unidentified target, Alec Baldwin.
@@tfeltmat2903 🤣🤣🤣
I remember looking at lighting advice in gun magazines 30+ years ago, they advised holding the flashlight out sideways so as to draw fire towards the beam and away from your body.
@Treblaine so you are going to carry a flashlight
A weapon mounted light is a weapon light, not a utility light. I've carried CCW with and without a pistol light, and I have trained with both. My home defense rifle has a light and optic. I haven't made the move to red dots on pistols yet because I am more comfortable with the sights. Use the gear you are comfortable with. Keep up the good work.
Definitely agree here. I went with a laser for close and scope for distance. Handgun, I use a bright flashlight and standard enhanced sights. Personally I just don't like using my gun as a search light 😂
I can't envision myself ever moving to a pistol RDS. Certainly didn't help out the genious acorn cop hit his target. Which is a good thing in that case.
You’re not gonna just become comfortable with red dots. You got to take the plunge and get to training. Only once you figure it out will you see how much better it is.
@@TheGeorgianGuynope. Been to the trainings and I'm also an instructor.
Do pistol dots provide a significant advantage to a competent shooter in 99% of a shooting he's likely to face? ABSOLUTELY NOT; not even in law enforcement.
Will it distract a mediocre or poor shooter from training fundamentals? Every single time. Every single damn time.
Is it an extra piece of gear to maintain? Yes.
Does it make a firearm harder to conceal? Yes.
Do pistol dots assist a highly competent or extremely well-trained shooter perform better on qualifications courses or in flat-range competitions? Yep.
Is it one more profit center for an optics company? Oh boy howdy, yes indeed.
For home defense, my 2 cents is a light is needed to positively identify someone at night. Your teenager might have snuck out for a party and is sneaking back in, etc.
I live in south Africa where we have between 6 and 18 hours a day with no electricity. I sometimes need a weapons light because my surroundings can be very dark . I also have a light that I use that is not attached to my gun
Desmond sure made a difference in your life, didn't he?
yes and its getting worse. may be time to leave.....@@shooter.mcgavin.
@@JD-tn5lz massive difference…..
Ken is a very good shooter, and has a wealth of knowledge and real world experience. With that being said. I'm an old man too. So it's not an age thing, it's a stubborn thing. I recently got a red dot for a pistol and let me tell you, it was an absolute game changer, I'm dinging 3 inches at 25 yards, which I couldn't do before. I've had a light on most of my guns for at least 10 years. So I don't know exactly what he's on about except that if it was good enough for dad it's good enough for me mentality.
Yeah Ken is way off the mark and starts off pretty condensending
he's pretty well stuck in 1982.
@@leftyo9589 naw more like 1992.....lol
"When's the last time you needed a gun attachment?" When's the last time you needed a gun? It's not about "need", it's about "want for its advantages in the right circumstances"
correct, you fight to win no matter what, regardless of what some old duffer says.
RDS and WMS are not necessary on an EDC, on a nightstandgun sure. If you need a light, what are you gonna do, pull a your weapon and point it to light up something or someone? Pocket lights just makes more sense and are more useful. You can light up anything safely and not risk pointing your weapon for no reason. You clearly drew your weapon, if adked in a court of law you would have to say, I drew my weapon. Hand held pocket lights just make better sense for EDC. YOU can directly illuminate someone and still have your hand on your weapon. Onve anyone gets lit up by a light thay wince, this gives you a time advantage. If you light them up and it isn't a threat, you never drew your weapon.
As for RDS, he stated 10 yards and in they make no difference. That's true.
As for needing something... Do you tow a spare vehicle behind your vehicle, just in case??? No.
That's the point he made with EDC , not nightstand guns.
Never understood making a EDC bigger and heavier. Just being honest. Carry what you want .
@@shepleonard8695 What kind of yuppie buys a pistol for CC, and an entirely separate one for home defense? That's like $1k for a gun and range time/ammo that's way less effective than just using a long gun in the home, and a pistol for CC. Or just a CC pistol.
Alot of people do this. Ive got guns in ever one of my cars and trucks. Shooting is shooting. Nothing changes from a 9mm 1911 to a 9mm Sig 365, baducs are basics. And it's more like $2500. @userequaltoNull
I don't think there's ever an absolute answer for everyone in every situation.
Tell that to "when was the last time you needed that" Ken.
There's a perfectly good answer, don't use your wml to identify people, that's called threatening. Use a handheld. If someone were to point there gun at me to make sure that I'm not a threat the first thing I'm doing is calling the police on this idiot. We'll see how the law sees it.
With all due respect to Ken Hekathorn, such a comment deserves the same cognitive that our potted plant and chief needs.
"There are no absolutes"
-Paul Harrell
i think it was in one of the tactics videos, part 2 probably
yup, ken likely has never needed his pistol, nor his seatbelt in his car, nor the smoke detector in his house, but he has em all!@@georgewhitworth9742
Add whatever you want to your weapons. I am not a proponent of adding any weight or bulk to my carry gun.
Agreed. Concealment is critical (for comfort too). Anything that could snag, slow down draw speed, etc. I'm not interested in. A civilian defensive shooting is likely going to be fast and very close range. Don't need a light or optic on a CARRY pistol. If I need a light (e.g. dark alley) I probably already have a flashlight out and using it to guide my way. Home defense, different tool and analysis. You're not carrying it, not really worried about draw speed, would want a light in the event of power outage, etc.
Biggest problem I have had is holster selection. There just arent that many holsters with light options and those who do generally only cater to a couple of light manufacturers.
Try MIE holster
Amazon weapon light user detected
MSP or Floodlight 2 are the ones to go for...that is if your light is not Amazon/AliBaba in origins
For the MAC channel, I have the utmost respect for you and the value you bring to shooters and the shooting industry.
I worked at Silencer Shop for a time and got to meet you in person.........you even gave me the velcro emblem off your hat when I asked about how to get one.
You are as genuine in person as your are on your on MAC. You truly set the standard of what experienced shooters and industry leaders need to be.
Keep up the phenomnial work.
THANK YOU!!
KH was a special forces marksmanship instructor in the Civil War. He tried mounting a light on his carry gun but the hot wax burned his hand.
Weapon mounted lantern
😂😂😂
Ken is still 100% right. He knows more about guns and shooting than most anyone on earth.
@@robertsears46 he's forgotten more than MAC knows
Very true. But I also disagree with Mac on 99% of his crap. Mac is the most FUDD guys on the internet.@@timb83
I feel like if you live in in the sticks, that light will definitely come in handy
Exactly. Your circumstances should drive your choices, and whatever anyone else wants to do is up to them.
Yup. More candela the better. Easier to see what those glowing green eyes in the brush are connected to 🤪
@@bobbyberry5559 100% what I was thinking you can tell a lot by what color the eyes glow
I'm in an apartment in a busy suburb. Kinda short on windows, so it can get dark inside. When a storm knocks out power (which is unheard of in Florida, I know, but), the suburbs are pretty damned dark, too. Can't have too many lights.
@@bobbyberry5559agree, but it’s good to have a light with a dim and bright setting. I have light colored painted walls in my house, with some ultra bright light, if someone puts their foot through my door and I have to wake up, get up, grab my gun, a good way to blind yourself is have a light that is too bright.
You can't pull your gun to light up the area ,in some states that a felony. Just carry both weapon light and carry
Well, that can depend on a lot of things. Regardless, once a deadly threat has been identified, you need to drop any light and get both hands on the gun and properly grip it, so it should have an integrated light of its own.
@floridaman6138 yes like I said carry both hand held and on gun
@@floridaman6138in my home state of ny, light on gun is deadly force. So even if the gun is unloaded, you are presenting deadly force using the light on it which means it better be pointing at something presenting deadly force
I think everyone is blowing this out of proportion. The point of the discussion is people are so focused on buying tactical stuff vs buying and and practicing
I definitely agree with you 100%, but with great power , comes great responsibility. Its because who Ken to the tactical world as to why this is such a big deal. He very well could be putting peoples lives at risk.
I agree with training with the gear you own. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with having a light on your carry pistol. If you never need it, consider it insurance. If you do need it and don’t have it, you are screwed. It’s not as though we’re talking IR Illuminator/ laser on there, along with a bipod. He’s out of line on this one…
A WML has benefits even without direct usage. It’s literally used in competition to reduce muzzle flip
The message I got from watching that Ken Hakathorn video was not that he said you should not have WML's. But they are not as necessary as all the tacticool fudd's are saying. Generally as a defender if you need a WML you probably needed a flash light first then you identified that there is a threat and pulled your weapon. Also you are going to learn to shoot one handed anyways and people have trained to be very effective with one handed shooting for a very long time. So it's possible that a basic minimal EDC combination fine and that you should get to the range and buy practice and training.
@@poconofrank9476 yea but general if you need a WML you needed a flashlight fist and since you already got one. Why not just practice shooting with that
Followed Ken for decades. He’s not much older than me. I live out in the sticks with no liggts on poles on my property. I’ve had a few occasions where people entered our property and I approached them with a handheld light in one hand and my handgun in the other. First time I dealt with that situation was the last time I used a handheld. That night I ordered several lights for several of my home defense tools. The next time I had to approach someone it was with a mounted light and it was way more user friendly. I had way more control of my handgun having both hands on the weapon making for a much safer encounter. The 3 times I had to approach folks they drove 1/3 of a mile down a dirt road with multiple no trespassing/ private property signs. I took pictures of them and their tags as they turned around. Always use a mounted light.
Opinion of course. You had trouble with a handheld does not mean others will have the same trouble. Of course with a WML, you can aim to the left, right or up or down and still see what you need to.
@@winstonsmiths2449
I didn’t have trouble with a handheld. I’ve qualified multiple times on LEO course using handhelds. I just realized the disadvantages of a handheld over a WML. I always carry a high lumen edc light in my pocket and it sits next to my bedside at night. In the end it’s all personal preference and truth is no one way is the be all end all.
I agree that if one’s desires a WML than that is their choice. What I caution you to consider is that a light now reduces your night vision temporarily. Your light gives your position away if you are on your own familiar terrain. Next is the problem of Aggravated Assault when you point a deadly weapon at an individual who means you no harm like a lost traveler. His proof that you pointed a deadly weapon? Your weapon “mounted” light. They have their place but you must admit that they have their problems that one may not be able to legally overcome. Just my opinion.
This is an idiotic post that does not validate a WML in any way shape or form
@@omardevonlittle3817
You’re correct. It’s an opinion based on a few situations. What works for one person might not work for others. Hence all the changes in gun designs, the way one holds a gun, the type of stance one utilizes. There is no one method that is the answer.
I do like a light in the hat brim. Nice hands free that helps practical things like writing and roadside repairs.
This is why I love my Surefire Stiletto and Stiletto Pro.
And you aren't committing assault with a deadly weapon.
@@specom im also not dumb enough to qualify for police work.
Bad guys shoot at lights! You wear a lighted hat brim, well,,,,,,
@@kinch613 fair point, if it were just being left on drawing atrention. just made a great point why automatic grip/shake on lights are not ideal and better to have quick easy access. Sometimes ya just need to not draw attention to yourself.
Can we PLEASE get more of these podcast style videos? This is probably one of my favorite videos you have ever put out and I've been following you off and on for the last 13 years here on CZcams.
Well as someone who has had to use lights and firarms, l will say this. Pistol mounted lights limit you. Where hand held lights give you far more versatility. Ethere way you go ,you should take a class or two on using them. It's an eye opener.
When Ken and Paul (Howe) and especially Bill Wilson speak, I listen. I also have my own experience and can trust but verify what I know to what experts say. I’ll never discount the knowledge of guys like Ken but I also always take my own insights into account too.
Nah you gotta call out the stupidity and realize this guy is basing all these claims from his time he is way passed his time because by his argument why own anything at all since we don't use it at all times.
Ken knows what he's doing, he's grasping for relevancy and saying something controversial gets clicks. Oldest trick.
I'm not gonna lie, I don't think that's it man. I genuinely believes what he's saying.
Getting clicks doesn’t mean getting sales. His comments definitely aren’t getting Wilson combat any new customers.
@@michaels5210 Exactly bro. The whole "negative attention is still attention" is BS. All he's done is make people ask why Wilson is showing this guy still.
I really enjoy this format. Nice convo, gents.
Great videos guys.
I watched the Wilson video when it first came out three weeks ago, but I did not draw the same inferences you did, so I revisited it before posting my response. Here's my takeaway. It's easy to cherry-pick Ken's comments to support your position, but it's better to consider them in their totality. Ken did not tell folks they did not need a light; he asked them when was the last time they needed it. Later in the video he said if you are going to use a light or red dot, you should train with them. He also covered the pros and cons of these add-ons. I'll quote his conclusion. "If you're willing to put the time in - and the effort - and I tell people, to me a red dot sight is like a 1911 designed pistol; it's an enthusiast's tool. It takes a higher level of skill and maintenance to keep it going. If you're in that lifestyle - if you accept them - then putting a red dot on your gun will make more sense. But if you're not willing to put the effort and the training and the trigger time in, I think it's probably a bad pursuit." I agree with Ken. Training is always the key. As for why you would have different configurations on your carry and bedside guns, I would say it's because they serve two different purposes that only you can determine. If you think this is a training and familiarization mistake, then I have to ask why do you use more than one type of handgun? Why do you rotate your carry options? Wouldn't a single, never changing setup be preferable?
I think a weapon mounted light is a good idea. You should also be carrying a good high output handheld light also.
I carry both..and train with both
Great Video well done and respectful and informative. Love your content
I believe they're an essential addition to any defensive setup. A well-equipped handgun isn't just about accuracy; it's about preparedness for any scenario, including low-light situations where visibility is crucial. Lights not only aid in target identification but also serve as a deterrent. It's all about being ready for whatever comes your way.
Considering your handle I find it odd you put so much trust in things that run on electricity in an emergency. WML make poor shooters better at holding onto a piddly 9mm and red dots on pistols are for people who don't understand where the bullet goes when their sights are lined up(which you have to do to use a red dot in the first place if you even aim with sights). This armchair speculation in these comments section aren't from people who have done ANYTHING. Even our most venerated guntoobers aren't a bona-fide all pro daisy gardener. You think his experience goes out of the window because "times change" he's not arguing for people to carry a revolver, he's just speaking the truth.
Why are you pointing a gun at someone you haven’t identified?
@@outofrangetv2353 Because some of us live on rural acreage miles from cell service and when you investigate what has freaked out the herd and alerted the dogs at 3am you don't venture out with both hands in the air. Out here we are our own first responders. I have a WML for the same reason I have a trauma kit, night vision, fire extinguisher, and gmrs in the atv.
@@outofrangetv2353I take it you have never trained with a wml
I'm a big fan of weapon mounted lights. Super handy when packing meat out after dark in bear country....they definitely have a place. I have red dots on handguns as well, but still undecided on how much I like them. I do know older folks like them more often than not... make the decisions on what works for you
I do have a pistol light, but have often thought that turning it on at night in a gun fight would reveal your location and give your opponents something to shoot at.
Proper use of a light is something that requires a little training, just like anything else. There is a way to use a light that maximizes the benefits and reduces the risks.
Especially as the typical housebreaker likely won't be aiming anyway, they're just blasting away in the general direction.
@Treblaine Okay. I will be less discrete. I was shot at night time. I turned my light off and moved. I don't want to go into detail.
@RickNethery So does a muzzle flash. Better than getting a light, is getting a light with so many lumens that you can see but they can't. Cops keep their headlights and flashers on during a road stop, not just for safety from drivers still on the road... it's an offensive perception deterrent to disorient any would be attackers from facing them. Same reason snipers keep the sun to their back if they can. Better to be behind the light than facing it.
Just trying to give you some peace of mind, not being a critical jackass.
@murdurmuffin7872 Oh, I understand, and in the right environment, a light could be very useful. You would have to be smart about it, though. Hope that your muzzle flash is the last thing your enemy ever sees. 👍
"Idiots do stupid things so no one needs lights and gadgets" -Fudd
You are the FUDD hear Ken is right in everyway.
Don't listen to robertsear thats above my comment. Obviously a troll.
Probably the best discussion ive seen on the subject so far IMO. Great job!
Great video guys
Ken needs to realize that we all don’t go to bed a 6pm like he does. Some of us do go out at night and need a light to positively identify a threat and engage.
Ken Goes To Bed At 4pm
Please tell me you're at least using the coronal light reflected off of surfaces and not aiming the muzzle at someone who hasn't been identified yet.
If you haven't positively identified whatever "it" is as a threat, you have absolutely no business pointing a weapon at "it" in the first place.
Situational awareness > weapon features. When I go out in the city, I carry a small pistol with no extra shit on it for deep concealment, and a separate EDC light. If I need to see what that person crouched down by my car is, I can do that without pointing a weapon on it - and with my other hand on the weapon if the situation calls for it. If I need stabilization, I can do the old school police cross and shoot just fine. Maybe somebody dropped their keys, or had to tie their shoe. I don't want to find out by committing felonies.
If I'm on my property I might have a full size pistol with a weapon light. But I'm also carrying a flashlight. I'll switch to the weapon light if the situation calls for it, and not before.
If you have room for a weapon light, you have room for a flashlight. If you don't need a flashlight, you also don't need a weapon light.
I was actually in a situation that was REALLY close to a situation where a WML would have made a huge difference. If I'd been out of the tow truck a few seconds earlier, my pistol would have been out. Dropping a car in a not-great area at around 3 AM, some homeless guy approaches and gestures around and I catch a flash of something that looks like a knife in his hand.
Me and the customer were still in the truck, so I just called the cops and let them handle it. But if the timing had been just a little different, the light on my carry gun would have been completely necessary.
I did also have a hand-held light, but when speed matters, one draw.
Everyone needs to take a breath and read/listen to what Hackathorn actually said. “I think lights in today’s world are extremely overrated. Again, if it’s the gun on your nightstand, that’s different.”
MAC actually misrepresents this immediately in the title of the video. The words “overrated” and “useless” are not synonyms. How many of you have a brand new, never used spare tire in your car? Or a brand new, never used fire extinguisher? How many of you have ever changed a flat tire or ever used a fire extinguisher? A shocking number of drivers don’t even know how to change a flat. Are fire extinguishers and spare tires “useless”? I’d say they are not useless. Are spare tires and fire extinguishers “overrated”? There is a very valid argument that these two items meet the definition of overrated. It’s still very acceptable to have both anyway.
A majority of the discussion in MAC’s video and a majority of the comments here are talking about lights on nightstand/home defense guns and you’re all getting off in the weeds and not listening/comprehending what the guy actually said.
Well said. I would add a distinction to your point.
A basic EDC gun is like a "doughnut" spare. Limited in capability, but compact and lightweight enough to always have with you.
A gun with a light and laser is like a full-sized spare. Even better, but most of the time is more work to carry in your vehicle.
All Ken is saying is that a full sized spare is not that important as long as you at least have a doughnut spare.
Absolutely very enlightening thank you very much gentlemen
"I wish I had fewer flashlights in this emergency situation" said no one ever.
Tim, I posted the following over on Colion Noir's video about the same subject. "I am an old "fudd" and a retired Army CID agent. One of the worst preconceived notions people have about LEOs is that they all know how to use a firearm and nothing could be further from the truth. Frankly, I am more uncomfortable around a LEO with a gun than I am around a civilian with a gun. Most LEOs carry a gun because [they have too] and most do only what they have to do so that they can carry the gun for the job. Civilians on the other hand are carrying because they want to, which results in more (not all) of them going to the range to practice and to seek training.
I want to acknowledge that Ken has forgotten more about firearms that I have time left in life to learn about them, but despite all his knowledge he is not “all knowing.” Let’s take Ken’s logic to the next step. Most cops during a 25 year career will [never] pull their gun out of the holster in the line of duty. Is a cop carrying a gun on duty “overrated.”
If I am wearing pants, then I am carrying a pocket light. Most of the time it just rides in my pocket, but when I need it, I need it now. Same with a carry gun. The possibility of me actually needing to use my carry gun is slim to none, but if I do need it, I am not going to be controlling the where or when it is needed. I don’t want to be handicapped by not having a gun, so why would I handicap the gun by not giving it all the capability it can have so that it can do what I need it to do, when I need it to do it?
Bottom line, we need to listen and learn from people like Ken, but we should never discount what our own knowledge and training has taught us, and just accept what he says, just because it is him saying it. Especially, if we have had any experience that contradicts what he is saying. Apparently, Ken doesn’t go out at night, has never been in an unlit parking lot or in a public building when the lights have gone out. For the record, I have done or experienced all those things as an old retiree."
"If you have a light on a gun, when was the last time you needed it?"
Hell old man, apply the exact logic to the gun itself.
Exactly
“Why would you have a different configuration?” Because I can’t concealed carry a full-size 10mm with a light & a dot every day, but I can have one in a quick access safe in the nightstand. Everything is a compromise: I CCW a naked P365 because any bigger/heavier and I won’t always have it with me.
Best answer right here
I'm old enough to remember when Jeff Cooper was the Godfather of defensive pistol craft.
I also remember his advice becoming dated.
Ken is becoming Jeff Cooper.
Everything Jeff Cooper said was 100% right and perfect advice that still holds up great today.
True, very true. The only thing that is continuous is change. To stand on a hill of accomplishment and say this is the highest peak attainable means you have limited your knowledge and experience. To be fair, I do not think every pistol needs a light. A small ccw that has a low hit probability past 12 yards, well ok maybe not. It depends on the situation and your training. What’s coming up, well multiple threats in defense scenario was unlikely 30 years ago. Now, gang activity, Tangos, saboteurs are increasing in probability daily.
@@caseysmith8831 That is just a massive lie.
@@robertsears46 Not even close to 100%
Him and Ayoob.
I’m going to have to pile on the “Fudd Tzu Says” meme with this gem on weapon lights.
You do you - great philosophy. Do what works for you, and let others do what works best for them. Be open to new technologies but don't adopt/ use them if they don't work for your needs. OUTSTANDING 😊
It’s crazy to me how much the internet took this out of context.
Do you need a light yes a gun mounted light nope.
His opinion is still respected by shooters.
Not this one.
@@captaintripps935 I said shooters
I have weapon lights on all my HD guns. I don't have one on my carry gun.
Me too. I THINK that's what he was talking about. He had to be more specific, and he used a bad example of the idiot using his WML as a regular flash light.
Good lights on hand guns is very pointless.
"I have weapon lights on all my HD guns. "
Why? What is your logic?
Same... I put mustard on all my hotdogs at home but when I go out for hotdogs, I don't use mustard.
@@virtuaguyverify😂
Walking the dogs in a conversation trail later than I should have been out. The sun went down and I started to hear noises in the woods surrounding me as I made my way out of the trails. The first thought I had was, "I really wish I had a weapon light to see what the fuck that was." All my handguns now have weapon lights.
A regular flashlight would show you that… you don’t use a WML for scanning.
That was the main point that you DONT use a wml to just light something up!🤦♂
@@American-mk9nn So I can ID a threat and engage with my finger?
@@Gieszkanne Maybe you missed the part about being in conservation land, no one around, on trails? Frank isn't coming stomping out of the woods towards me at night, and if he is, Frank getting shot.
So you are going to muzzle sweep innocents on the trail? That is what a handheld lite is for. My handheld is on my body when I am awake. It will temporarily blind a perp with ill intentions if need be.
Tell me how much you like your lite when you're appearing before a judge for brandishing a weapon.
I'm a retired cop. I am still an instructor and I REFUSE to put a light on my pistol. When I went through the academy in 1998, the attitude was DON'T DO IT! I do have a light on my primary rifle. I will never put an optic on my pistol.
Agree 💯% with you guys. Keep up the good work gents. God bless
Rarely does anyone consider that they may have to defend themselves with one hand/arm disabled. Pistol/light combo allows me to use both with a single hand. What if hypothetically you are carrying your child in one arm, or dragging someone to safety… pistol/light combo handy?
Do you know what a light is for?
When was the last time you were in such utter complete darkness, you needed a flashlight to make out faint details?
I literally cannot remember it EVER being that dark, except when I took exceptional acts to make it dark, like a photo darkroom.
The point is you are never going to be in a place so dark you need a WML if you are a civilian.
@@robertsears46Well...not really. It is often dark when I take out the garbage. If I hear something I use my handheld light and then may pull my pistol if I see an animal. I would never pull my pistol to just use the flashlight.
@@m4rvinmartian uhhhh.. spent 29 years as a cop on the streets, multiple shootings… think I have a clue.
@@m4rvinmartian I've carried around a small EDC flashlight for probably over 10 years now. In that 10 years, I think I used it once to look for something that fell between the seat in my car. I don't know what all these people are doing with their lives, but I suspect it's a lot of fantasizing about ridiculous and improbable "what if" scenarios that will never happen.
Never go full Joe Biden.
As you said, "being able to critically think," this is key...
Good video, and great reasoning.
I had a very recent experience which made me believe a weapon light is a great idea. I live in very rural Oklahoma. Both my son and I were fishing under a bridge on the Arkansas river where there are only cow fields between Coweta and Haskel OK. It had gotten dark and we packed up to head home. When we walked up the embankment there were 3 homeless men sandwiching 10 feet of my truck !!!! We are in the country! Never thought this would be a thing. It was dark, when they saw us the men kinda backed off and acted like nothing was going on. Would not make eye contact. I carry. I have a red dot. Shoot very regularly, retired military and active member is a Tulsa gun club. I for some reason never really thought of having a light on my carry gun. I have it on my nightstand gun because you need to see the threat and what is going on to be safe. This situation made me rethink the light on my carry. What if those men thad other ideas like robbing or hurting us!!!! I would have been at an extreme disadvantage with the very low light as far as identifying threats!! Maybe they saw me an a very large 6,2 weight lifter, football, wrestler high schooler walk up the hill and decided, not as easy as it could have been. I don’t know. It spooked me. Not sure if I could have been accurate or safe without being able to visualize the threat without a light of some kind. I now have ordered a light and new holster for my carry gun. Luckily they just kind of slipped more under the bridge and nothing happened. My truck was locked and nothing in the bed, and most importantly I didn’t have to draw my weapon! and my son and I left safely.
Howdy, neighbor!
Gun light can be a positive thing or negative thing, and it has a cost (bulk). The cost and negatives outweigh the positives. When gun lights truly become so small that they don't add any bulk, the equation will resolve differently.
"The threat is trying to evade you in the dark, how are you going to look for it without a light"?
1) In civilian settings, you don't look for it. Police, military - yes, civilian - you call 911 and disengage.
2) In your own house and cannot disengage? Turn on the lights. It's your house, you know where the switch is.
3) it's dark, you turn on the gun light - you will get shot at. It's been shown enough times.
4) it's never pitch black. With the light, you're blind where/when it's not shining. Without, you see better.
5) and if it is pitch black, disengage. If you can't see, the opponent can't either.
6) a pocket light works better in almost all cases.
See. This comment needs to be stickied at the top.
It's a mic drop.
Woah there, that's a reasonable well thought out comment which means you used critical thinking. That's not allowed, all you. All you can do is dunk on people
So.many absolutes.... that aren't. I'm glad you live un such a perfect, well defined world of A+B=C. Problem is, the rest of the world doesn't. You cannot "always" disengage. Try that in a 2nd story bedroom with only one door. Turn on your own lights? Yeah, that would work 100% of the time....NOT! Swit hes are usually located bear their lights in a home. That's how that works. You just lit yourself up (unless its outdoors and that an entirely.different case where it's an obvious help. Indoors? Forget that!). Your arguments all exist in some predetermined perfect (for a defender) scenario. They just aren't reality 100% of the time. Well reasoned? No. More like spurious arguments founded on narrow, specific situations., not a broad set of circumstances
I agree, you do you. And maybe you mentioned it and I missed it, but you NEVER point a weapon at what you don’t intend to harm, it’s very easy to use a light to illuminate your target or threat, but you’re now pointing a loaded weapon at that target/threat, and that may be a family member or innocent person. Yup, I’m an old guy, and my eyes pick up a front sight more easily than a red dot, to each their own.
ever noticed a light can light up things its not pointed at........?
Great video.
Light future on a firearm is a very nice option. I have several so I can quickly install when needed. I also train with my handheld flashlight if the weapon mounted light fails. If I am about in dawn to dusk time, I may go without. I may add one when the natural light fails. My stay at home defense weapon has one on it. It stays hooked on and checked with the weapon on a daily base. I still have a regular handheld flashlight next to it, incase it fails.
I personally believe, like any other tool, it all depends on the applications said tool might be used. I personally just use a handheld light in conjunction with my CCW. That's just me.
At the end of the day, carry what you want, train with your loadout(s), and become proficient.
Measured Intelligent discussion on the internet...who knew? Thanks for the content.
The problem with having a light attached to your firearm, is that you will use it as a flashlight. That is a natural response to identify what is around you in the dark.
This can lead to "brandishing", which can lead to arrest, jail, attorney fees, seizure of your weapons, etc. It may lead to death or serious injury if you light up a cop!
Check the laws in your states about "brandishing" and be aware of potential pitfalls.
Im surrounded by crackheads and I have never unholstered my weapon to use the light on it. You could, you know, carry a flashlight.
Wrong if you train properly and equip yourself properly, you dont use your weaponlight as a flashlight.
WML on EDC or handguns in general help mitigate recoil too. I do still carry two other light sources on me, a dedicated light and my cellphone.
That’s true. I have found it strange that the industry designing edc handguns so small and lightweight with their polymers that adding weight to it to reduce recoil is seen as a positive thing by some. Might be an indicator that there is a good middle ground somewhere for a carry pistol weight, and many current offerings are actually getting too light.
I'm under the mindset of its better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it, I have a wl, dot on my hand gun, but I also carry a hand held light to illuminate something with muzzling it, just my 2 cents
I really do respect and appreciate the advice and opinion of experienced people like Ken Hackathorn, but at the end of the day, you have to do whatever fits your needs. Don't let anyone shame you for what fits you. Train well and stay safe America.
Yeah I will need it to see and still be able to manipulate other things with the hand this frees up. I wish they had a weight kit for them so one could tune the out-front weight and mitigate flip
Missed the discussions with you and Jason.
I know Ken stated you don't need that, you can say that about a gun period. I had someone tell me when's the last time you needed a gun ? 😮😮
It is better to have light and not need it, than to need it and not have it for home/self defense
I'm old school I was a cop for over 30 years. I never had lights mounted on my weapon. I remember a female officer shoot a suspect my accident. She was using her weapon mounted light as a flash light. The man came out of a closet and surprised her she shot him...I made have done the same.
When I can carry a WML I do. Usually on mid to large framed pistols, outside the waistband.
On concealed carry guns, no lights, red dots, etc. On car guns, open carry guns, and house guns, lights, red dots, load 'em up.
I agree with you guys
* accidentally sends a round through mister whiskers in the dark *
oh no if only there was a way to positively identify what I was shooting at
Sound shots are out of style!
Anyone on here has to go watch the full video on Wilson Combat and not just the clip. The context of the entire conversation is important. The TLDR for the full video is don’t chase deficiencies in training by trying to supplement it with equipment. In the full video he doesn’t say citizens shouldn’t have lights. He even says he has a light on his home defense pistol. His point is most people aren’t going to get adequate training to know when and how to properly employ the weapon mounted light.
Tone & Context matters, when you start off with a statement like is in the video, it is gonna blow up in your face, I still think Ken is the real deal, he has had a long career teaching, but this tone was really bad and I lost some respect for the man.
For home defense you need a WML.... for concealed carry its metttc, I don't use one for concealed carry, I also don't go out at night. Theyre great for hunting though, you might need to draw your sidearm in the woods where it can be dark before dawn or after dusk.
I'm in the camp of wml and handheld light. My handheld light for the bump in the night is more powerful then my weapons mounted light I have a fiber optic front sight that lights up really bright when I turn on the wml.
He's having a senior moment
They're useful for home defense and rural defense where street or traffic lights aren't common.
Bad part is that they can tell attacker exactly where to shoot outside and indoors it can possibly blind the user if the light bounces from the wall
Great discussion. Loved it. You do you. I'll do me. I don't want to give up my position. Weapon lights, like tracers, work both ways. But there is no real "always perfect" solution. I have a hand held thermal, and a headstrap mounted IR NV monoscope. I also have a thermal 1-6X scope, an IR laser, and a red dot on my home defense 300 Blackout AR pistol with a can. On my backup Kel-tec KSG 12 ga., I have a 1500 lumen light with a bicycle bulb honk horn.
I think it's entirely dependent on the end user.
Personally, I live in a big city with decently lit streets, so at most I carry a handheld for PID or if I need to see better, and keep my firearm bare. But everyone may not live in an area with decent lighting, some people may own property or live in the country. Others may not have the best eyesight and prefer a red dot. It's entirely dependent on the user. For bag/truck guns, home defense, or long guns, I think it's a completely different story. He was specifically referring to handguns for concealed carry, but (since it was brought up) I think in the instance outside of concealed carry, it makes a lot of sense. If a situation has escalated to the point where I've escalated from a concealed handgun to a a bag/truck gun, home defense gun, or long gun, I absolutely want whatever red dots, lights, and lasers that will help me put rounds on target as quickly as possible.
As I’m watching this, I have a Streamlight flashlight in my pocket and a TLR6 on the M&P Shield on my hip. Ironically, the Shield also has a set of Hackathorn sights. To my knowledge, they get along just fine.
When was the last time you needed a fire extinguisher?
If I recall correctly, he is specifically talking about a concealled carry handgun, not rifles, not pistols for home defense, he has specifically mentioned that in that or other videos. I think the point being made was unless you work at night or are likely to be out and about at night, the vast majority of people probably aren't going to need that light on their concealed carry firearm. The added weight and bulk can be pointless when most people stop carrying guns because they are too big as it is. If your waistband can hold an AR15 then do it. But it doesn't and people struggle as it is with even the smallest guns to want to carry. And I agree somewhat, adding a lot of capability and complexity to a device that you are only most likely going to use within 7 yards (outside the home with a CC pistol). I think they stress the point that you should plan for the probable and not the wildcard or the extreme. But this is only applying to a concealed carry pistol AFAIK. And same with the red dot. For something you may likely be point shooting or shooting without really aiming that much a dot does not actually offer anything over irons. Shots at longer distance are to be rare, and if you want to carry a dot and a light for those 1% chances then thats fine, but carry is every day and I think the point was is that really needed, is the added bulk and complexity of failure worth it? Just to reiterate that this is only in regards to carrying a small carry pistol when outside the home, I am pretty sure he never said not to have a light on your home defense gun or go to war gun, he has said a light on the home gun is needed 100%. People just aren't watching the full video or series. Maybe I got it wrong and he is saying that but that is what I got from those videos. Thoughts and theories on are they really needed or not in all situations basically.
He said it you're not military or LE, you don't need it. And his example of stupid use was of a cop doing very a very stupid thing.
You're introducing a wall of nuance into something that was not very nuanced.
@@bryanpeters5034I must have heard him mention it in a previous episode, maybe he wasnt clear on that, because I specifically remember him saying for home defense its a must. I think the point is, if he is arguing against using it its because it takes up space and weight, a home defense gun it does not matter its size or weight. Therefore he is talking about a carry gun for defense. Point being, you should be retreating out of the area and not moving forward towards the threat to search for them like Military or LE would. Of course you need a light on your home defense gun, because why not? It is not impacted by size or weight like a carry gun is.
I’m with you- I heard “don’t need” and “over-rated.” The only time I heard “useless,” was in the commentary. As to what he actually “said”…I’m sorry but unless someone can show me a considerable amount of self defense shootings in which an attached light was used, then ol Uncle Hack seems to be right…”when was the last time it was needed?” That’s what he said…as for overrated…take a pistol with an optic and attached light- ask yourself, “what’s the one thing that can fail but still make the firearm effective?” 🤔 yeah…the light! Probably have another source I can use on the rare occasion I’d really need it…making the firearm still effective AF….hence…”over-rated.” Also, that light can give your position away. Bad guys don’t need to properly ID a target…there are some occasions in which I’d “prefer” a separate light…again…”overrated.” Uncle Hack is 100% right boys…try not to lose sleep over it 😜
and 99.999999% of the time they wont need the gun either, yet no one is saying dont carry the gun.
@@leftyo9589 He didn’t say, “Don’t carry an attached light…” he didn’t even say “useless” like this title says…The only people that are suggesting that, are the people “saying” what “he said…” for clicks. Funny how you tube is falling into the same trap as the big network news now…it’s all about the money. Even for CZcamsrs…
Holosun has introduced a thermal for handgun. Looks really cool.
This 2024 my favorite red dot optics & light company, Holosun, did have a functional prototype of a pistol mounted thermal camera which attached to the pistol’s picc rail which then transfers or overlays a thermal image via blue tooth to the pistol’s thermal/Red Dot sight which is attached on top of the slides optic cut… .. I was hearing it wasn’t working half the time during the show but Holosun was merrily showing proof of design functionality.. It was super cool seeing it when they had it working & it shouldn’t be that much longer before introducing functional production models being available. Price roughly around $1600
Pistol/Rifle mounted red dot optics & lights are not only an advantage for quicker & precise, shot placement & being able to identify targets just as fast in low light situations. So, imho they’re a definite necessity for anyone who wants them & practices how to use them.
When you train at night with a WML you immediately see the value of a handheld flashlight for illuminating the scene as the light bouncing off the smoke effectively blinds the shooter after the first shot, but you can also train to use the WML to only illuminate while being held in the on position and let go for firing (vs on/off switch use)
I wouldn’t say they are useless but I would say few actually know how to use them properly as they typically won’t have the opportunity to train in the dark at public ranges. As such, they could be more of a liability than an asset if they are being used in a self defense situation in the dark for the very first time - especially if it’s below 45F degrees
Thankfully, I've never had to use my pea shooter. Using the same 'when's the last time you used it' statement, I shouldn't carry my pea shooter any longer.
Fudd Lord Ken, 💯. Absolutisms do not exist in our modern world. Watching/listening to Ken's rant is wild.
Went to one of my properties the other day and found that I had a burst pipe, had to go in the basement that had 4 inches of water in it and didn't want to turn on any lights for fear of mixing electricity and water lol so, I didn't have a handheld light. I used my carry gun and did what I had to do.
I lean way opposite of Mr Hackthorn. My edc includes a mini flashlight. I use it to identify and my weapon light is only used to target.
I agree with him. Folks done got too dependent on attached lights and red dots.
Do you carry a back up gun ?
@5:07 what is the make and model of the RDS mounted on the sig?
If there's a chance for using a sidearm at any time other than during daylight hours? There's a case for having a mounted WML. I don't have them on all or even most sidearms but exclusively wear the ones that are equipped when out near or after dusk.
Good vid. I think new tech is great. I usually am not on the bleeding edge of it being more of the middle adopter. I have used lights to hunt hogs also thermals to hunt them. Next I will probably get navgs and more night training. That’s part of the fun is going out to try the new tools then train and hunt with them. I like to learn new things some people prefer comfort. It’s ok as long as the comfortable ones are honest with what they have their drawbacks and their own personal abilities.
I have a winch on my side by side, not because I hope to use it. However, I was thankful the one time I needed it ,it was there.
This coming hot on the heels of another respected individual saying you're going to break your gun by releasing the slide on an empty chamber...
"When was the last time you needed a light"
Not sure but ill have it when I need it, just like Ill have a gun when I need it.
I believe Mr Hackathorn also made a comment regarding appendix carry that was negatively taken by some.
Ken said the same thing I say. I don't want any gun pointed at my junk.
Also one time I pissed all over my gun in a public restroom. That was the last time I appendix carried.
@@robertsears46
That’s funny
@robertsears46 maybe you shouldn't be carrying if your bladder control is waning.
**While mounting a red dot or flashlight on something as small as a Ruger LCP Max would not be practical, the laser dot is very practical.
**While most defensive shoots (which in itself happens a miniscule amount of times) probably happen outside the house, and most people are home by dark their maybe a small grain of truth that you may not need it,
**But Murphy is constantly around and he's constantly sticking his nose where it should not be, so a large model pistol with both the Red Dot and flashlight/laser makes more sense than not having one.
**And for home defense it's even more necessary as you may not always be able to turn on all the lights.
**And you should also carry multiple flashlights a small general use light and more high-powered combat type and the weapon mounted, and if you're real savvy double up on the two hand helds, (the lights tend to run out at the most inconvenient times or have a bulb break or some other malfunction.
**Just like knives you should carry your general purpose blade, and then a fast deploy fighting knife,
**And you should have at least one (more is better) less lethal option available too.
Weapon lights and red dots can be pricey. The new m17 sig rds is $800