Finally! An Affordable Force Feedback Yoke: A Pilot's CLS-60 Review
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
- A veteran Pilot's review of the FliteSim.com CLS-60 Force Feedback Sim Yoke. Why you need it. Why you'll want it. Why you can afford it. Learn about their KickStarter Campaign at FliteSim.com
The 3rd-party trim wheel functionality is an absolute must.
Or at least just read it from the sim! I've never like the yoke based trimming. I prefer the wheel.
This is my go to yoke currently. I love it. Thanks for a great review. 😊
Yes your review was very helpful when my first yoke had to go back. Actually, as you know, they got rid of the two button push entry into boot loader mode. My original was fine but just needed the firmware reloaded correctly. Updating the firmware is still a bit cumbersome. Keep up the good work… I envy your productivity in adding new and quality content. I am vicariously enjoying your success!
Thanks for doing a video on this yoke! I’ve been waiting to see this item reviewed and then I also wanted your opinion on it. Keep up the great work Russ!
That was a great explanation of trim for us non real world pilots. Thanks for the review
Well done review Russ. As always, your insight as a RWP speak for itself. Thanks.
I can't wait to try it! Great review! The slipstream effects and bumpy surface take-off was awesome.
I want this! I'm very excited for this. Great video thank you Russ.
If they update this yoke to allow external trim wheels, I'm buying it!
You always make interesting videos! thank you for making this
Great review, thanks
Awesome review as usual Russ! Outstanding graphics to explain trimming via spring loading vs FFB. I think a lot of non flyers don’t really understand what they’re missing. You help clarify that. I wish I had your presentation skills (among others) to have become a reviewer in retirement. I’d enjoy the free stuff😂
WOW! An amazing product! And a Great review!
What I really learned about your setup is that mouse ball in such a convenient way!
It looks great, definitely looking forward to try it.
Good Honest Review Thank You
Thanks Russ great video as usual
Thanks for the review! :) Your insights are extremely valuable!
Glad it was helpful!
Very neat. I have been waiting 40 years for a yoke that would do this. Your explanation of how trim works in real life is spot on and I have tried in vain many times to explain it to non pilots. I have a real C182 and created a sim that closely approximates my actual panel. Mostly I shoot practice IFR approaches and procedures with it. I use a yoke poached from an AST KingAir simulator. It has realistic trim in that there is a separate mechanical spring you can move. Of course like this yoke it is divorced from the computer trim. I turn a wheel like on my own plane. I screwed my self when I added a GFC500 autopilot to my real 182 and to the sim. Well the autopilot trims the plane independently of the mechanical trim.
It does seem that this new yoke should accept trim changes from an autopilot. My understanding is that the yoke does not do that yet and all trim is by hand. Correct?
I’ll check out the site and see about getting one…
Great review. As I am looking into making my own FFB yoke getting the facts of what force and travel is required is a great bonus of the review. Thanks for that. Normally when you build a FFB device you make it work in accordance with the standard USB HID protocol which make the device plug-and-play even though you may mave some extra settings for it via an external program. That means that all the force inputs are fed from the sim and read by the device that then activates the forces with the servo motors.
What appears to happen here is that they apply some *extra* forces (prop wash and propeller rumble at least) that is not a part of what is fed from the HID protocol. I'm just guessing. In that case they are "fabricating" effects that may be accurate, or not... It may also be that the forces *are* in fact fed by the sim in the HID protocol, but of different types. And they choose to enable or disable those specific types in their software with a setting. In that case they are not doing anything special, just disabling some types of forces that normally would all be read by the FFB device.
If the sim is producing the correct FFB data in the HID protocol there is no need for any device specific handling of it other setting the max amount of force wanted as far as I can tell. The device just need to sum up all the different types of forcesfed by the sim and activate the motors accordingly and all would be perfect.
So what I would love to know is if this FFB device is doing something extra on top of the standard HID stuff.
it reminds me the joke in PFC sim, used in IR trainig, definitely forcefeedback is much closer to reality
Fascinating yoke!!!! Incredible eye for detail. I've never seen one react in such realistic manner. This is definitely for those that have crazy space. Because that thing is ridiculously big!!! Not practical at all. I feel an the realistic feel. But, practicality goes a long way in simming as well. Regardless, it's a very impressive product. Maybe it'll become smaller as time goes on.
Nice review though. I hope the company does well. Because no matter what, we need a lot more options! Especially since one company went under due to internal issues. I'll keep my eye on this company. This yoke is industry changing!
I always learn about great new products from your channel! Who makes that white keypad to your left?
Thanks for your review. As much as I like the Yoko I have really wanted an affordable FFB. I was also glad to hear your take on the Brunner and its "mechanical feel". Sounds like I would have been disappointed. I've been practicing slow flight and stall recovery with the concept of getting current again. As you indicated it's really a drag (no pun intended) when the spring gives you the same force no matter what maneuver you're completing. I have the Virtual-fly Solo GA1and Ruddo pedals. Hopefully the Yoko cut-out will accept the width of the CLS-60. I'm sure it's too tall, but I can make a cut-out for the depth.
People building a P-38 cockpit at home are gonna be really happy with this
Great news, ffb is coming along for yokes and flight sticks for helis.
I have ordered one of their first (pre-kickstarter) 50 units, and hope to receive it in another 8 weeks or so.
I would never order anything from Kickstarter...
Great video and thanks for explaining what you did I learned alot! Now on to the yoke it sounds like the Microsoft Sidewinder 2 joystick from a dacade of more ago I just got for $80... Just in yoke and a more high end form with nice softwear not just relant on Win11 and the FFB isn the sims/game... Which is great especly if you can get one for under $300... But what I want to know if it's plug and play like the side winder or not? Like do you need the soft wear or can it do the sidewinder thing of just working? Also I find it funny the more expensive yokes have a proforamnce more similar to the logitch wingman I just got for S60 new old stock... the sidewinder was just the working stick and cables. Which you can find a wingman for $20 or so working anytime used.
more new promising sim stuff at a decent price. Lets hope that trend continues.I am a buyer for any great product..
If you can't afford full force feedback yoke and what you want is mostly the realistic trimming by feel, you can mod Honeycomb Alpha Yoke with a cost of about 50 euro, by installing small linear acuator inside which will allow moving the yoke neutral position forward/backwards.
Do you have to remove anything in the alpha? And where does it attach to?
Search for "Honeycomb Alpha Yoke trim mod - prototype 3.0"
Search for Honeycomb Alpha yoke trim mod.
Have you actually done this successfully? If so contact me at username barlow320 which is at gmail which is a dot com.
Mail sent
Very cool, but I guess different folks have different ideas of affordable.. :). Thanks for the information.
Really happy that more companies get into FFB. I own a brunner yoke. It's really nice, but it cost a fortune. Not that the FliteSim one is cheap by any means, but at least it's cheaper. The main thing that is putting me off though is the weight. It's twice the weight of my Brunner yoke. Might be because it has greater peak force? Either way though, weight is really important since I am using a motion simulator. At any case though, it looks like a cool product and I look forward to see what the future holds!
I’d love to fly the latest Brunner and do a point by point comparison
@@rbarlow Hah, If you're ever in Norway, feel free to drop by and try.
@@rbarlow maybe try the cls-e MKII if possible, the spec of the cls-e NG is too bad..
@ Russ Barlow -- +1 for the Brunner MKII to FliteSim CLS-60 point on point comparison. Please do!!
Hi Russ, Thanks for all your fantastic videos and help over the years. I asked another (RW pilot) streamer if a force feedback yoke made sense for a 737 sim, and he said (effectively) that you don't really get any feedback from the yoke in the real 73, so - no. (I guess too many actuators between the yoke and the control surfaces?) I know you mentioned you tested it out on commercial jets, but any more in-depth opinions on if it is realistic to use with Boeing or Airbus will be greatly appreciated! Is it "just" the higher force needed to move the stick that would be relevant to CA, or is there more? Thanks again!
I fly a c130 and have flown the 737. There is force involved it's more fluid but it's more a feel pressures and not forces if that makes sense though conflicts in terms of physics maybe
How does the track ball strapped to leg work out? I've never even thought of that but it's got me thinking that might be a better setup than a mouse on my desk.
Do the controls get loose as the airspeed reduces, on the way to a stall?
Does MSFS even output FFB data? Or is it done via some third party plugin that somehow pulls that data out?
Nice video! Do they have (or plan to make) a FFB stick too? And rudder pedals?
That would be cool but not sure with the current size how that might work. I think they will have their hands full with this for a while
Thanks Russ, the magnetic based yoke i saw a few years back was the most promising imho but i have 0 hours in a real aircraft.
That was Iris Dynamics that started as a kickstarter too I think. I think they went belly up.
20 years from now, will this yoke still be usable or has it got custom written software inside for each plane and/or sim? Will I be at the manufacturers mercy to have it in the next versions of sim software?
Subscribed
Thanks!
looks good, but could be tricky to make work with the dofreality systems (h6)
When you mention that you must use the trim on the yoke, do you see the actual trim being moved on the aircraft? I wonder if what is actually happening is that it is just holding the elevator position with no force required from the user. I guess that this gives you what you want most of the time with a different method but wouldnt behave the same in some cases where the trim tabs are acting counter to the elevator. Great review Russ.
Yes the trim wheel in the aircraft moves with the trim switch inputs on the yoke BUT if you trim in the sim the yoke doesn't move as it does when using the yoke trim switch.
@@rbarlow Thanks Russ, Hopefully they can get some of that simmconnect goodness going. I am use to trim on stick for some aircraft but I do like my trim wheels in GA. This is looking like a nice product at a reasonable price.
Ordered mine recently when they listed 50 unitsbfor sale before the kickstarter.
Congrats
Another attempt via kickstarter. I am reluctant to throw in a couple hundred euros, given the past of "ffb-yoke-kickstartetism". But i would definitely buy this if released, if only for the double roll forces compared to my simionic ...
If you can wait and are willing to pay a higher price waiting may be best. I think the unit’s design and operation is pretty complete so it may not be that risky.
Do they have forceback basement for joystick like warthog or winwing, thx
Impressive.
I've been interested in this yoke since Mark at the Sim Hanger channel reviewed it.
btw, I know you're into VR, what's this yoke's impact on the VR immersion experience? I suspect it's quite positive.
For me it doesn't have enough buttons on the yoke handle for VR.
Yes it is excellent in VR but I decided to film the demo on flatscreen because it was easier to produce and still most simmers are not in VR YET.
I could see that.
@@StekuVideo Time to build a voice attack profile.
Should have a big warning sticker on the front: "Watch your balls!" 😬
I currently use a Fulcrum One and this does look very interesting. I fly in VR and use a physical yoke and pedals and VR controllers and voice commands for all other interaction. Because of that the trim inputs in the cockpit must be feed back for this yoke to work for me. After being burnt by Apara with there Kickstarter I am still a little more concerned than before but very interested in what I am seeing. Any chance this will be at FSExpo.
Yes they will be at FSExpo with a chance to demo the yoke
@@rbarlow Looking forward to looking at there display there.
Hello! how it work with zibo738 in XP12? I have a CFY TQ, now looking for a FFB yoke, one is to feel the trim forces like real, second it would be good to see it moves in sygn with the autopilot.
Looks really promising, but based on their own words, 'Affordable ' is very subjective. I'll be interesting to see how affordable. Thx for sharing your views.
Kickstarter should be $799
This does look amazing....but why does it need an emergency shut off, is there something dangerous involved?
Yeah I wondered too since Brunner doesn’t have one. When I first got it the self test was more aggressive whipping the yoke from 180 degrees left aileron to 180 right at full aft in an about a second. I guess if you were too close and it went wild the 13,5 pound force could slightly hurt you but the quick shutoff in red seems a bit dramatic.
I just messaged Flitesim about a couple of things I'd like to know:
1. Approximate cost for the CL-120 upgrade for CL-60 owners.
2. Does the CL-60 physically move while the Auto Pilot is engaged like the real planes do?
2. Probably, since its movement is linked to the control surface position in other aspects.
Hmmm now i realize why trimming is so difficult with a non ffb yoke. It doesnt 'self correct' so the plane just starts to oscillate much faster.
I hope there will be a distributor in North America 🙏🤞
Is this currently for sale if so how long does it take to arrive?
I wish they had mirrored the HC Alpha's button setup though :( Not sure how hard it would be for me to lose all that even if the yoke would be better.
Which kind of hat switch is that? 8-way or continuous? I use an 8-way to 'turn my head.' A feature that would be nice is a replacable handle. A handle for boeing, one for corporate jets, etc. Great way to make extra money selling yoke handlles.
8 way
@@rbarlow Then I am impressed as well. It would help sales a lot if they added extra switches. They should look at some of the more popular and successful yokes for guidance there. I do think there's a big market for new yokes like this.
Would FFB rudder pedals ever be a thing? Or would that be pointless?
Yes Brunner makes them and they would vary force requires with speed and type aircraft
Good review, looks neat. However, you're idea of affordable, and mine are two completely different things. 😂
Damn 23,000 hours. I thought I was senior with about 15,000. I’m guessing you fly the Airbus as well based on your email.
How the hell is 1000$ affordable????????
If you're an aviation enthusiast, this is a very reasonable price to save up for.....
@@damiendegrasse I do not share your opinion and I'm an aviation enthusiast.
I'm 43, a former private pilot, I flew for the first time at 14 years old, I began simulation on the second edition of Flight Simulator and I've been higly practicing flight sim and aviation all this time.
There was a time when the market was OK for Force Feedback with an affordable price. This time is over. Nowadays industries don't have interest in developping force feedback as it's not a wide enough market. The only option remaining is a very specific market with a lot of developpment research etc justifying a price that only few are willing to pay. It is still possible to make affordable force feedback joysticks but the range of customers is not wide enough.
Not every aviation enthusiasts are willing to pay 1000$ for a joystick even if force feedback is really a game changer.
Flight sim gear IS expensive.
People that build interactive cockpits easily spend 5x on just on the displays and button switches. if you spend that kind of money on a cockpit you are much more willing to spend a grand on the one thing that you'll be holding most of the time and that gets you the extra bit from feeling like playing a game to flying a plane. Especally if you run a VR setup.
Something like a flight computer for 737 (where you enter the waypoints of your flight) costs like $800 as a sim gear.
no.15 in the first 50 order yay- aaaand no Brunner 5K NZD for meee
They made a believer out of me on FFB yokes
@@rbarlow ditto here and I'm really stoked I found out before shelling out for the Brunner that that does look good but omg the price... Anyhoo, pulled the trigger on a this yoke and looking forward to expanding the ffb ... Have vpforce rhino joystick and this yoke will complete the mix !!!
Hi! Another New Zealand based flightsimmer like me? Wow cool!I sure am interested in this yoke but might wait until they develop it some more.Did do about actual 230 hours on c152 many moons ago but am thankful this yoke could help me step up from Honeycomb yoke(I’d still want to keep on using my bravo throttle quadrant if I get this yoke).Greetings from manawatu.
@@davidkitchingman2222there are a few nz’ers around ! Greets from chch :) I think that the level of development was at good enough level and Fabian on discord has been super engaged with peeps on discord…yes looks like we is needing dev but at the end of the day it’s met minimum viable product for me …vpforce rhino sw was mainly txt based json files !! But sw has come along leaps and bounds
Oh yeah..`850 hrs here too IRL
Built my own FFB yoke and stick from a sero/controller kits about a year ago, They actually work better in DCS, as many aircraft have native surport.
I'll keep an eye on this but the trim functionality is kind of a big deal IMHO.
FFB completely spoils you. I rarely use my traditional spring/cam units anymore. I am using the Simionic FFB yoke, and the Bruner for my stick. The only use I have for my Virpil and VKB units anymore is for flying the Airbus, since it is a fly-by-wire aircraft with no flight control feedback, and space sim stuff like Star Citizen.
I just put my name down for one of these but not holding out to be able to get one soonish... anyone actually managed to buy one of these yet or only reviewers?
No just production samples to reviewers to create interest for the Kickstarter
How much?
Kickstarter $799
23000 !! Respect
Best of all they were accident and violation free too
@@rbarlow noo.. were was the fun then? LOL
So... theoretically someone could put a load of sensors on real aircraft to get accurate force profiles, right?
Can it double for sim racing as well?😅
I suppose that firmware and software could be written to allow that but there would be a physical limit on turning the wheel plus or minus 180 degrees. I think on a racing sim you’d want the stronger servo in roll.
Price?
About $800.
But it is not ready to purchase.
Still a Kickstarter .
I look forward to the market-ready unit.
FC-100 Flight Console Yoke not INCLUDED! Affordable?
Regular price$3,495.00 USD Sale price$2,995.00 USDSale
Plus shipment cost $200-$300..... Sorry, this is a joke 😁
$800?
Yes minus $1 …. Plus probably $50 shipping I would guess
Without force feedback, it's a video game with limited transferrability to a real airplane.
Whats up?
$800 is affordable?
Compared to the other ffb stuff yes
Absolutely. Brunner FFB products are multi thousand dollar units. There isn't much else on the market for FFB yokes
$798 USD
$1,197 USD
"affordable"
I hear you. You’re not the first to lodge that complaint. Should have said “more affordable” but it didn’t fit so well on the thumbnail screen.
@@rbarlow lolz. you should have said how much the others cost.
For realism I go for VR every time.
Yes me too but easier to film.this way… I can’t fly nearly as precisely outside VR too.
@@rbarlow Yes indeed I fly loads of helicopters in VR but I am useless on a 2d screen.
£629? Not affordable for me mate.
$800 or in that range is not affordable.
Is it in the range that people would be willing to pay?
Yes, for the people that really want FFB.
But that is not affordable.
I would say it's more accessible.
Conceded….should have said More Affordable but that was hard to get on the thumbnail without making the letters small.Thanks for commenting.
Figured it was going to at least 700 dollars. Stepper motors with lbs of force are not cheap motors and aviation yokes are horribly expensive even when in the salvage yard.
"Affordable"
What a goddamn monstrosity lmao
1200 USD is not affordable.
I guess it should have read “ more affordable”. It is a rather subjective term though.
That's not affordable at all
Please don't call 800$ "affordable", that's false advertising. 200-300$ would be affordable.
Had you ever heard of the Iris Dynamics FFB yoke, using magnetic linear actuators? Sad they abandoned the FS community for the industrial world.
Yes I think it was first a Kickstarter but not sure they ever delivered any regular production units. If the current FS2020 expansion of Flight Simming was present they may have made a go of it. I think someone picked up the pieces to get their tech and patents
czcams.com/video/bOCzSHhjAc4/video.htmlsi=KjjIteyyw2dP-fk1
@@rbarlow yup, that’s the one. I’ve been following them pretty closely since they pulled out. I asked if they had dev/demo gear and drawings they would let go of, but they didn’t. I took it to mean they were keeping it around just in case. They make a mighty fine linear actuator, but not an inexpensive one, sadly.
This yoke paired up with a buttkicker....🎢❤️😎✅