Ross Rudd's Prototype Delayed Blowback AR180
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- čas přidán 29. 03. 2020
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You can see Rudd himself explaining his pistol here: • Rudd Automatic Pistol
And his patent here: patents.google.com/patent/US3...
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
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Lets be honest here, getting a letter back from the US Ordinance Department and then getting a tour of the factory is much cooler than getting a letter from a basketball player.
I was thinking the same thing, but values of "cool" seem to have changed for the worse these days.
In 6th or 7th grade in a similar exercise I wrote my letter to Barrett Firearms, most other kids were writing to radio/tv stations or sports teams. Pretty sure you would get suspended for that now. I didn't get a tour but I did get some catalogs, a DVD (quite the prize at the time), and a sweet m82 poster.
@@berryreading4809 I wish I could write a letter to Gordon B. Ingram
One can only dream...
Fox Two!!!!!
Like 10 seconds into the VHS you hear cars screeching and dogs barking. This guy designed his weapons literally in his back yard.
see him shooting it sideways at the end though XD guys a g and thats his crew your hearing
@@blackcat-sv5rj Not exactly. He's trying to shoot it upside-down as part of his proof of concept. In other words, he's testing its reliability.
@Eammon Wright en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn
He didn't actually die due to radiation poisoning. He OD'd at age 39.
those sounds remind me of VHS home videos
I really want one of those pistols, looks like it'd kick the shit out of what were stuck with today!
Even as a non engineer, this looks elegantly simple. Shame it never went further.
Makes me wonder if this is a successful prototype.
Yes, delayed blowback is an elegant system.
@@B.D.B.
What about increasing the distance required for the bolt carrier to travel rearward, changing the angle and if need be adding more mass?
It seems to me that the reason why delayed blowback rifles are so rare is due to the amount of RnD required and ammunition sensitivity as there is no gas system that could otherwise be adjusted.
@@jonasstrzyz2469 you are correct in the ammo sensitivity part. That has caused many problems in the past leading to the switch to gas operation
Truly a shame, I hope someone vastly more intelligent than I can recreate this
"The charging handle is missing, but we won't let that stop us." -Me encountering a Winchester 1903 for the first time not knowing it was in the fore end
The Real Adam Sandler me when finding a Winchester 1911 shotgun
OH MY GOD!!!! It's Ross Rudd AR. I remember this Rifle when I was a kid. My dad knew Mr. Rudd. It's so cool to see this rifle again!!
Did you ever see him shoot it?
That's one cozy looking sweater
Shier Shark it really is
Looks like an Austrian military sweater.
@@Tallmios sadly it isn't, the military sweaters have a pocket on the chest, a 4-5 button neck (rather than the toggles) and a the shoulder/elbow patches are a cotton/nylon blend rather than more knit wool.
@@thecanuckredcoat4142 Have you ever seen the austrian military sweater?
Looks itchy
Sad turnout for Ross Rudd, this seems like a pretty well engineered piece.
Sierra ngl it would look like a really cool gun if it had a handguard
The simplicity of this is amazing. I wonder how history would've changed had Rudd met w James Sullivan or Eugene Stoner.
$1600 is a bargain.
That's what I thought. I was expecting a much higher price
@@Bansheeman6100 It would be nice if the owner of the prototype pistol bought this as well.
That is less than a regular AR-180.
Yes it is!
@@xedrickOG Historical pieces are priced the way they are regardless of any laws. This would be the same price if there wasn't a single gun law. Actually gun prices have hit an all time low. Guns can not be manufactured any cheaper. People want high quality, 100% reliability, and an unreasonably low price. Those three things can't happen. If the average Joe had a background in machining and bringing a product to market, they'd know that $500-700 for a gun is the rock bottom that you can produce a gun at. Notice when you go lower than that, the quality and the fit & finish drop off drastically. Being able to machine all the components for a gun, plus materials, plus all the other aspects of running a business (marketing, insurance, lobbying, profit, salaries, R&D, real estate, maintenance, machine costs, etc, plus room for the retailer to profit), for $600, is insane. I worked at the largest gun shop in my county, and they made between $20-50 on the average gun sale. Consumers have beat the cost down to such an unreasonable amount, that we are seeing quality dip. (One of the reasons almost every single gun manufacturer in the US, that has been around for over 100 years, has gone bankrupt and been bought out by capital investment management firms.) People are getting to used to buying things at rock bottom process from China, that they expect their guns to have American quality for a Chinese price. It's usually people without manufacturing knowledge, or people that are just plain ignorant.
Like a lever-delayed blowback, it works by accelerating the bolt carrier in respect to the bolt face (with an additional resistance given by the friction of the block over the inclined surface). In this case the bolt carrier is accelerated at about double the rate of the bolt face. To accelerate a mass at double the speed in the same time you need four time the energy, so the system allows to reduce the weight of the bolt carrier to 1/4 of what woud have been needed in a pure blowback design
You explained this very well. I wish someone would break down the math on delayed blowback systems so it's easier to understand along with the other common systems. Maybe a chart with graphs with info like the angle of the locking surfaces, mass of the bolt and carrier, caliber, and all the other stuff so it can be understood as "you need W angle for X cartridge with a bolt and carrier weight of Y and Z respectively". I've found one site that did this for simple blowback designs though it didn't explain the math well, it was still very helpful. This along with explaining stuff like gas length and springs would be very useful.
@@laggymclaggylag5882 You can find theoretical explanations but not necessarily real-world specifics. A lot of that information is bought with the R&D funding Rudd was trying to get, and companies that spend that money tend to keep it under wraps so the competition has to spend their own money to find out.
I can't really blame them.
I suspect this system would be sensitive to the friction characteristics of the wedge contact surfaces. There would be a considerable difference throughout the operating range from clean and properly lubricated to fouled and dirty.
I suspect this system would be sensitive to the friction characteristics of the wedge contact surfaces. There would be a considerable difference throughout the operating range from clean and properly lubricated to fouled and dirty.
Rudd's system also seems to use one part less compared to the roller-delayed and lever-delayed designs, which I find to be quite intuitive .
There's a couple Canadian companies that manufacture this exact rifle design there's the Kodiak Defense WK-180C amd Spectre Ltd. WS-MCR. I had no idea these were copied designs, alot of people hate on the design because they want a regular AR design.
Rudd clerverly kept his first name far away from his rifles.
As a Canadian I unfortunately get the joke.
Please explain?
@@andrewlara7992 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_rifle
@@andrewlara7992 Check out C&rsenal episode on the Ross rifle. Very interesting and well done. Unfortunately a lot of good Canadian soldiers died because of its short comings in battle.
I could see modern PCCs using this mechanism, from what I've noticed the delayed blowback pistol caliber carbines are much better shooters than the straight blowback ones, and this seems simple enough to warrant some experimentation.
@Brian Zhang I thought delayed blowbacks supposed to be cost effective and easy to manufacture since it doesn't require a gas system.
@Brian Zhang what do you think of CMMG's delayed blowback system?
That’s crazy, I examined this rifle during the RIA preview day and was immediately intrigued and confused at the same time. The lack of a charging handle and handguards threw me for a loop but lead me to the assumption of delayed blow back. For some reason I imagined something like an FAL BCG delayed tilting? But after seeing the internal mechanisms, Rudd’s design is very impressive and could have had quite the potential in a pistol and rifle operating system.
Thanks for solving the mystery Ian!
Speaking of letter writing: "Dear Brownells..."
"This is where the magic happens." - Gun Jesus, 2020
I saw the Rudd video, seeing this mechanism fully realized as a pistol really sells the mechanical design and brings some uncommon features to the pistol form factor (e.g. a fixed barrel). Because of that, it saddens me to know that they didn't really take off.
Gun Jesus thank you for blessing our morning with firearms knowledge.
Guns N' Games Morning?, where are you from?
Amen
Amen
Weapon Yeshua.
This is my kind of engineering. Simple and elegant.
That should be stenciled on every engineering degree, faculty and stationary device.
"Simple and elegant".
@@utubrGaming maybe along with "perfect engineering is when there's nothing else that can be removed from the design."
Throw something involving reliability as well
That's one of the coolest, simplest, and most practical designs you've covered that didn't go I into production.
I clicked on the pistol video, and I was taken aback by how... beautiful and well-crafted it was.
That bolt and carrier set up is beautifully simplistic.
Having watched Rudd's pistol video, I'm actually surprised that there isn't much interest from the firearms industry in his patent. It looks like a very elegant and promising design!
The difference between Rudd's system and a roller-delayed system is that in a roller-delayed system the bolt transfers force, via the rollers, directly into both the receiver and the carrier, whereas Rudd's system relies on the redirection of the bolt's momentum, via the receiver, to cause the carrier to travel rearward. As I see others have also noted, CMMG's radial delayed blowback system is very similar is this regard.
Rudd's U.S. patent for the operating system appears to be no. 3,998,126. CMMG's parent, non-provisional application is application no. 15/791,595. Public Pair does not show Rudd's patent in the file wrapper of the '595 application which has issued as patent no. 10,436,530.
Huh
@@longiusaescius2537basically what Rudd’s system has in common with the radial delayed blowback system made by CMMG is using the bolt itself to cause the carrier to move backwards therefore giving enough time for pressure to lower in the chamber before the bolt itself moves back and extracts the cartridge. CMMG uses a modified AR-15 bolt and carrier, which what that does is that it locks the bolt and carrier to handle the pressure while gas is redirected to cause the carrier to move backwards which cams the bolt head and unlocks it. CMMG instead doesn’t have that gas tube and instead relies on the energy from the cartridge case pushing backwards, as energy doesn’t just travel forwards but also backwards, and uses the locked bolt head to have the only part capable of moving, the carrier, start to unlock instead of requiring force from a piston or redirected gas. This is the same system but instead of a rotating bolt head it’s a tilting bolt essentially, so the bolt head doesn’t lock but the wedge gives enough friction that the force acts upon the carrier which causes it to move back therefore camming the bolt downwards the “unlock” the bolt. Of the two systems this is most definitely the simpler system and better for intermediate and possibly even rifle caliber rounds although the radial delayed blowback system hasn’t been tested for either but I doubt that in its current configuration that it would work for either and would require a completely new bolt and carrier and therefore gun.
@@iterationfackshet1990 interesting, Id hope they at least try some bench prototypes
@@longiusaescius2537 CMMG is mostly focused on pistol caliber AR-15 conversions, which the radial delayed blowback system is excellent at although I think it could possibly be beat by MEAN’s bearing delayed blowback system which is just a roller-delayed system with the rollers replaced with ball bearings which reduce manufacture cost and time as the rollers are the most complex part of the roller-delay system but also it allows an additional “roller” with 3 ball bearings making the system more durable as there’s 50% more contact area than the roller-delayed system and it can sustain higher pressures, and ball bearings themselves will wear out much slower than the rollers which are notorious for needing to be constantly replaced. However getting back to the radial delayed system in order for it to work on a intermediate caliber it likely would be incompatible with an AR-15 which is the main selling point of CMMG’s radial delayed carbines. There would need to be a whole new gun with either two or three locking lugs instead of the multi-lug bolt of the AR-15 and each of those lugs would also need to be chamfered. On top of that you’d either likely need a more traditional style of recoil spring or a buffer which is another point the CMMG PCCs don’t need. Developing a new gun and system is costly and not guaranteed to bring in returns when the market is flooded with AR15’s which is probably why CMMG haven’t made an intermediate caliber version despite holding the patent to radial delayed blowback.
I could see Rudd’s system coming back should someone try as there are now uppers like the BRN-180 which copy the AR-18 but make it compatible with AR-15 lowers, it’d be cheap and I have no doubt that people who’d want a delayed blowback AR that isn’t a PCC would probably jump at the chance at it.
I love all your content but I specifically love these one of a kind firearm videos you put together.
This actually reminds me more of the Reising SMG than anything else. Pretty cool
Bernhard Schmid that is the first notation in the list of cross related patents in the patent papers.
Why?
I wonder if Rudd ever went back and tinkered with bullet design, we see a lot of people with proprietary cartridges. I wouldn't think he would let that go too easily if that's where his mind was as early as 16.
His idea was for a bullet with triangular flaps to fold down under wind resistance to form a boat tail.
Whelan pointed out that the flaps would be deformed by the powder gases.
The problem is the need for a strong receiver, or a long barrel extension.
The roller delay system has the rollers a lot further forward, so only a short barrel extension is required.
I wonder the rate of wear on those locking / delaying surfaces given that its operating under rifle round pressures. One of the plus side to using a roller is that they roll which can help reduce/ spread out the wear better
If the rollers are like lifters in an engineer that might not be true, because the radius is so small
Agree. If the angle are so critical, a little wear could throw it off. Having a fluted chamber would have also helped to compensate for pressure variations in ammunition. Though these tend to raise the bolt velocities and throw the mangled expended cases into the next field.
Very interesting rifle. The Savage A17 .17HMR autoloading rifle has an action similar to this.
After watching this video I went and checked out the Rudd Automatic Pistol video you linked.
Now I'm wishing Walther had picked up Rudd's design and used it to make some "heavy" versions of the ppk.
Nothing like starting my morning with strong coffee, a solid breakfast, and the latest sermon from Gun Jesus Himself.
I know just what you mean.
I read an article about this rifle that was written years ago by John Malloy. He fired the rifle himself I believe and mentioned that it operated smoothly and fired cases were unmarked and could be placed back in the chamber easily. So apparently the delay was enough that a fluted chamber was unnecessary even with 5.56 ammo.
I'm...... mesmerized....
It's very fitting to the AR-18 families being a supposedly simple gun, the upper could be made from stamped steel with milled top part for the delaying mechanism.
Did the Fireplace Guy bought it?
We can only hope so. He seems the type of guy who'd get a charging handle made and installed so Ian could show us how it shoots.
I love these unique design posts, I was actually thinking of how to do a delayed blowback for a rifle and this is just way simpler and better, as you'd expect lol, I'm a software engineer in my normal life and strive for simplicity.
The lack of hand guards make it look like the rifles in Escape From New York (M-16A1 with the hand guards removed.)
Neat, I remember reading an article on Mr. Rudd in the 1994 Gun Digest. It was mostly about the pistol but the rifle was also pictured in it.
Dude.... this is genius this needs to go big on the market for ar 18s
So of course I went straight to the Rudd video! That pistol looks sweet, you can only say 'if only'.
Very interesting locking system. I watched the video of Rudd explaining and firing his pistol, I was very impressed with it. Its a shame no one picked it up, but I think his idea/patent occurred about 25 years too soon. If he was still alive and had come up with this in the past 10 years, I believe he would have had a better chance at getting a manufacturer on board. The market for compact pistols and new pistol ideas in the 70's and 80's seems to have been very flat. Thanks Ian!
In these times of quarantine the channels I like more are even more likeable. Thanks Ian.
I realize it's a totally different principal but something about the shape reminds me of the Blish Lock.
Hey Brownells, what would Thompson do?????
Also kinda reminds me of Blish's wedge "Delay" for the Tompson SMG. Only not based on bad scientific principals.
Except the blish principle did work... on cannons. Scale it down and it all goes up in smoke.
@@CThyran The "Blish principle" stated that the frictional coefficient of dissimilar metals changes based on the amount of force applied, which is entirely bogus.
I kinda wonder if the Blish lock actually worked as a decent delayed blowback?
@@ArcturusOTE Specifically on the early Thompson SMGs, yes. It lowered the Rate of Fire. However, that was more a measure of the added complexity, and the angles of the inclined planes than the difference in friction co-efficient. In fact, that little bit of Brass in the heavy bolt actually lowered the mass of the bolt slightly. It's a tossup whether that little bit of Inertia was enough to make up for the added complexity.
He was my great uncle. Very sweet man
"And THAT's where the magic happens." This enthusiasm is why I love Forgotten Weapons. Thanks, Ian. Stay healthy.
totaly the reason why I see these videos! Super interesting to see prototype guns like this.
Reminds me of the delayed blowback using a tilted bolt in the Reising smg.
hope everything's well for you in this hell right now
It is said that, he resisted the temptations put to him by Bloomberg, while in the social isolation desert, rejected the money and quoted the scripture. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Ian is out in the boonies isn't he? He'll be fine. Probably happily taking the opportunity to work on research.
I'm loving the original video as well as this one (the one linked). Sounds like the guy didn't have much luck but was very talented.
About the time the quarantine started I became aware of the Channel, The Great War. I just want to thank you Ian for my new understanding. The prototype guns you bring out are my favorite.
Perhaps you would like C&Rsenal,othias relly goes into all the nitty gritty lineages of whatever firearm he is talking about in each video. However be prepared to either love or hate the sheer amount of content.
Rudd's pistol design is marvelous as was the finished products. It's exactly the innovation that the firearms industry, especially that of the handgun, has been lacking.
So he made the Blish lock work, 30 years after stripping it out of the Thompson :)
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine no man he knew but didnt have that name for it
This looks more like a hesitation-locked action.
@@thiagokawano1618 No, this isn't at all like hesitation locking.
I like how Rudd has a gangster firing grip as the last part of his video. Very fascinating gun, I wonder if this could have been a glock competitor? Since it is the same size but in .45. It seems rather simple to switch barrels and calibers. And it is a fixed barrel pistol. Very neat.
Way cool, and Thank You Ian for prime entertainment that also educates. Could not ask for more as I can't get out to shoot (range closed under emergency measures rules).
Ross Rudd's video on the handgun version of his system is really cool and interesting !
Huh. Didn't realize some neat firearms history happened in my home town. Lovely! Thanks Ian.
i read an article on this and his pistol over 30yrs ago. very neat.
that bit about the cheyenne helicopter is pretty interesting. my grandpa was also involved with that.
Love the simplicity.
Very cool! I've see some similarities to Resing SMG delayed blowback system, where bolt also pivotes up and down.
Watched the Pistol video, have to say it's a damn shame it never got into production.
Hi Ian, A very nifty design that deserved much better ! Reminds me somewhat of Luger's as an enhanced toggle lock mixed with a reversed Browning tip-up bolt. This seems a nice one especially for the PCC carbines, also in heavier calibers.... Patent free now as of today - up for grabs. Something for Ruger, f.i. ?
The bolt moves right away when firing!! So it is not delayed blowback but slowed blowback. The last split second before the bolt is fully "open" and slides back would be when the angled tip is almost down at the same hight as the bolt carrier. But at that stage, the bolt already moved slightly back! (the distance from the back of the bolt to the highest point at the tip) So, it does reduce the speed but it does not stop the bolt from moving right away. My understanding would be that this means it extracts slower but still under extremely high pressure! So not even fluting the chamber might help as the pressure is the problem, not the speed of extraction. This is different to roller delay and lever delay (famas) where the bolt is NOT moving at the start and only shortly after. So, my guess would be that it is highly unlikely that this weapon actually worked properly. (i have seen his pistol work, but with lower caliber, the lower pressure combined with the slower opening might be enough to work. It unfortunate that we didnt see the chamber if it was fluted! It would be super awesome if Ian gets in contact with the buyer and asks for their expierance on reliability.
I hope that whoever purchased this will invite Ian to film it while shooting it for his archive.
Thank you ,Ian .
The pistol video is a must see...I want one!
Ian you are a youtube legend. Love your content thank you for all the hard work on these great videos!
Hard to tell from the small fuzzy shoto but that car looks a lot like the 1967 Alfa Romeo my parents bought as the family car.
Something that occurred to me is that you could easily design a test rig that would let you change the angles of the locking wedge on the bolt, of the two lugs that interlock with the bolt carrier and of the tracks on the bolt carrier itself that would enable you to find what worked best for different ammo. I'd think it would be much easier to test prototypes that used this system rather than lever-delay or roller-delay systems.
Yet another fantastic video!
Ian,
Went and watched the pistol video...
Damn I wish that would have had some legs!!!!
Really cool design.....
This more resembles the lever deleay in i.e. FA MAS than roller delay in HK.
Reminds me a little bit of the lever system in the FAMAS too.
I went to the original video just to write "the gun Jesus brought me here" but the comments were turned off.
Very interesting system on the AR 180 !!!!!!
The out-of-battery firing-pin block is *very* elegant 👌
That looks like a fantastic design honestly. Definitely a shame it never took off. It looks like it would be relatively simple to manufacture, to me at least lol.
"I'm gonna write to a sports guy"
Very interesting. The transfer of momentum is similar to lever delay systems and the vertical sliding arrangement, while different in function, looks like it could have inspired Savage A17 and A22 delayed blowback rimfires
Imagine if the lower receiver was all one piece. Polymer.
And the upper was just one section of square Aluminum.
Then just slide them both together. And use a Roller Delayed system.
Simplest AR-15 in the world.
I would like to see a modern version of this system.
CNC upper and round the bolt carrier etc.
Would be interesting
The RAH-66 Comanche helicopter was developed in the late 90s and early 2000s. Ian probably meant the AH-56 Cheyenne which was developed in the 60s and 70s and it was the failed project to make a heavy duty attack helicopter. It was funded by the Army, had a cool, advanced design with a pusher prop and coaxial rotors, and most critically, it was extremely expensive. It was cancelled and the program evolved into what what eventually produce the AH-64 Apache. Interestingly, the expensive of the AH-56 Cheyenne is what lead the Air Force to create the program that would produce the A-10 Thunderbolt over inter-service rivalry that the Air Force could make a close air support aircraft just as if not more effective than the Army's expensive AH-56 for much less cost.
Thank you for the links Ian. Great to see your well-balanced interview in Forbes.
You must be doing something right!
I think it's a tilting delayed blowback system, maybe like the Reising submachine gun, usually tilting bolt locking (or half locking) uses the back end of the bolt as the locking surface but back end, midway or front it's still tilting bolt.
It kind of reminds me of a Reising submachine gun, but with a wedge going up like the BAR rather than the whole bolt tilting.
How did this not take off? I totally want one.
Hello ForgottenWeapons! I just wanted to ask... Can you review the Georgian STC Delta's weapons? like a Scoprion silent pistol, PDSHP, MSWP...?
I got my book today. Yay!
I see this as similar in concept to CMMG's radially delayed blowback systems, except that the rotation involved is along a different axis.
Very clever design and amazingly simple
Okay that's cool. I guess that is where Savage got the A17 action!
Because of the angle on the bolt locking surface there is going to be a huge downward thrust on the bolt and carrier. The guide rods are too slim to take that thrust, I wonder what the bolt carrier slides on to take that thrust?
Wow, this seems really cool and simple. Would love to see a test.
Hmmm... I wonder how many rounds could be put through a production gun before the wedge/receiver wore to the point where the gun cycled too fast?
Very cool system I like how simple it is.
this mechanism is exactly what i've been looking for! :D
I bet that this video didn't release until after the auction because Ian wanted to bid on the gun without us competing lol
Ian if you where to design a fire arm what features would you include and why and what design would you select given your knowledge of the history and designs of firearms.
Elegance in simplicity.
A truly forgotten weapon this time, given that this one isn't even finished: it's just an upper reciever for an ar-180!
...I wonder...
What if...someone takes this, but makes it into an upper for an ar-15...
I think there's a touch of primary extraction as the boit comes down i the cam track
4:34 it looks like that upper receiver is bent/ blown out. Especially the right side (upper side at 4:36) Would that rifle still be safe to fire???