I work as a lawyer at a nonprofit that sometimes receives requests for (and occasionally gives) legal help from members of the public in criminal cases. My old boss, who had been there for decades and had heard everything, was fond of starting those conversations with a simple question: “what brought you to the attention of the police?”
I understand Glenn's point, but I think it's missing the mark. You want to normalize marriage because it resets the goals and expectations of individual in society. Marriage doesn't "fix" the problem itself, but creation of a culture that encourages and even glorifies marriage does.
I wanted to comment the same. Ian takes the position that valuing marriage is a good thing. Glenn asks Ian, “what’s so good about marriage?” Glenn proceeds to essentially state “marriage is good” as if he were answering the question he put toward Ian. He offered no better answer than Ian. This comment is the answer to Glenn’s question.
@@societalwisdom9930 taking those two young people and them getting married doesn’t fix them, it begins to slowly fix the next generations. I think that’s what Glenn was missing.
@@andreastarks2780 Which aligns with Brandon Comer’s original comment above. Those two persons marriage will not likely “fix” them. It will contribute to a process of creating a culture that encourages marriage. As a side note, I’ve long had this thought. We celebrate weddings. We celebrate wedding anniversaries. Aside from specific weddings or specific anniversaries, the institution of marriage itself needs to be celebrated.
@@bryanmurray2723 Being that the reality is it is much simpler to assert that a social norm benefits society than it is to describe the complex mechanisms by which those benefits are realized, to assert any further claim than the next sentence would require a text-wall of elaboration beyond my willingness to endeavor. Beyond such an exhaustive elaboration, a direct (overly simplistic) answer is it plays a significant role in the stability of society on a meta level.
Great conversation. Love Ian. John, in no way are you an a-hole for pointing out the truth in a conversation on the topic. Caribbean/African kids succeeding is a function of their family culture as you point out.
Thank you very much for this conversation. Mr. Loury, have you considered inviting Katherine Birbalsingh, the British headmistress? I think your viewers (and you) would enjoy her greatly.
Glenn's steelman argument against the benefits of marriage (about 17 - 30 minutes) is off the mark. The importance of the marriage is more than anything to the direct benefit of the children that result from it. That so many children are born out of wedlock is a problem especially for those children. So yes, that parents are married is, with respect to the parents, a marker of many favorable underlying characteristics of the parents, as discussed in the video. But too many people are having children who are not put together well enough that they can have a successful marriage. And their children will too often go on to be troubled people who become unwed parents themselves.
And think of the emotional and physical health of the mother who’s raising those children to have the companionship and love of their father as her husband. That’s just a healthier environment even in some of most challenging situations, not including where addiction is present.
I feel like a quote by Stephen Fry fits well into this conversation: "One of the greatest human failings is to prefer to be right than to be effective."
My simple question to these 3 brilliant men is why do black Americans still overwhelmingly vote Democrat after all the damage they've received by them? Thank you
The topic of blacks voting Democrat is nuanced and the historical context is very important. Dr. Leah Wright Rigueur’s book “Loneliness of the Black Republican” accurately answers your question. One major reason is the RNC does not invest resources in heavy democratic districts to compete for votes. Governor Huckabee did this and received 48% of the black vote in his state.
Because we get a better seat at the table with the democrat party, with the republicans you’ll be standing wayyy in the back not seen and definitely not heard. Only time I see senator Tim Scott is when the republicans roll him out to speak on how theres absolutely no racism in America. Can’t you ask the very same thing the other way around about poor whites that continue to vote republican and year after year nothing changes for them? I live in a red state where the party in power don’t even want to fund schools properly in majority black communities so what am I supposed to think about that? If affordable housing is trying to be build in or close to a more white and wealthy republican area they block it so what am I supposed to do about that situation? Most blacks aren’t voting this way out of ignorance so please give us more credit than that, the Republican Party just haven’t gave us a true reason to support them majority wise
You guys should speak Katherine Barblsing of Michaela Wembley. Community School. (London UK). She also has and still has issues with teachers and activists standing against her now successful school!
Can somebody help me understand what’s the practical importance of arguing whether marriage is a cause or an effect? Why not just encourage it and reap the benefits? Glenn’s “Effective Person” gets married, and that marriage is more likely to produce more Effective People who get married. I don’t see the dichotomy. I do see obstreperousness. 😊
I believe, because if you misattribute causality than you would miss the appropriate place to apply an effective intervention. If all it took was marriage to do well then why not just randomly put two people together marry them and tell them to have kids; everything would just work out from there. It would neglect the fact of many other pre-existing variables; culture, character, school choice, economic status, etc. I do not see it as denying that marriage is not a net positive, but it could be that there are other factors at play in the first place.
@@dontpanic00xx Marriage (commitment Union in none modern cultures) has always been and will always be a net positive. There’s no empirical evidence to the contrary.
It's more than just "our students can do hard things", Ian. It's that in doing them, one can derive a kind and level of satisfaction in life that is unlike any other human emotion. Somehow, this fact seems to have been lost throughout the US educational system. Even for the most intelligent, to achieve hard things requires hard preparatory work. It's the entire process that results in the satisfaction.
They don’t expose hard working and impactful black scholars to their audience. Alexander would totally expose and call out their shallow arguments to their audience. Plus they serve an audience that has no desire to consume blk scholars that don’t reinforce their racist views
Unfortunately, I just recently found you, Glenn, and I love your podcasts! The first one I witnessed, was you against Christopher Hitchens back in 2001. I’m starting to watch your podcast one by one, finding them very informative! You seem to be like me, a classical liberal? Not this progressivism going on now.
George Floyd died of Fentanyl overdose. The symptoms he exhibited, shouting, "I can't breathe!" and such are of "cardiopulmonary arrest and death" that are the most common symptoms of mixing Fentanyl with other drugs (he had a large amount of methamphetamine in his body as well). The Hennepin County Medical Examined said that there was no damage to Floyd's trachea and no evidence of asphyxiation and if he hadn't seen the video and if Floyd had been found in his home or on the street in that condition the conclusion would've been unambiguously of overdose as cause of deaths - but medical examiners are also under pressure to be woke.
Yeah, the dude wasn't great, and I mean, derp, that was obvious from the video when I first saw it. In fact, I saw it just hours after it happened, and my initial response was, "Well, that dude's high as shit." But then, you have to ask yourself why we have police officers fucking killing a dude that me and two unarmed friends could take down. You see, that's the fucking problem, and it goes beyond the dude being black. It's the way police in the US deal with people of all types. If you can't see that, then... well...
Do you think Derek Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd's death ? Do you think his behaviour was acceptable ? No doubt drugs were part of the picture. However he should have had immediate medical attention. Not someone kneeling on his throat for nearly 10 minutes.
@@davidlamb7524 I recommend you look at the much longer body cam video instead of the much shorter and by now heavily propagandized cell phone video. The whole time they were subduing him they were waiting for an ambulance that eventually, after a long wait, took him away, but they didn't know what was going on - and maybe should have. They asked a couple o0f his friends who were standing there watching what was wrong with him and they said he was often like that (meaning he was often erratic and crazy to that degree). The knee to the back (in his case it seemed to be on his shoulder blade most of the time, occasionally slipping down to his back as he thrashed around) method of subduing arrestees was taught to Chauvin and other recruits at Minneapolis police training - since removed from the regimen. In the body cam video one sees that he was shouting "I can't breathe" long before they had him on the ground - and he WANTED to be on the ground and ASKED to be able to lay down, the cops had him in the back seat of the police car but he kicked his way out and laid down on the street. There was TREMENDOUS pressure - including much threatening and bullying - to accept a certain narrative of the incident. The judge at the trial wouldn't sequester the jury. The defense witness' home was vandalized and the defense attorney gave a very lackluster performance and barely raised a finger. The activists are very dishonest and serving another agenda ("destroy capitalism" et al.) and only trying to exploit the situation for it "by any means necessary" - dispensing with any honesty, ethics, good faith or fair play - for it, to attain those ends. Police violence has decreased some 95% in the last 5 decades of steady police reform in the U.S.. in 2019 police shot and killed about 40 unarmed people nationwide. 20 were white, 9 were black, the rest from other racial categories. Police shootings are now less than 1% of all shootings in major American cities and certainly not the greatest threat to black lives.
I think Roland Fryer has some very basic, easy to implement reforms that could drastically improve public schools. The idea that it would take 50 years for public schools to improve seems silly at best.
On the issue of West African/Caribbean parents doing the hard work of finding the "right school" for their children, my question is "so what"? Kudos to them. Over time, they may have a profound impact on where education goes in this country through example. How can this be considered as negative? As for what John calls "natives", perhaps a different solution will be necessary, but let's not discard progress when it is made. As Ian says, poor education outcomes is a national issue that has become color blind in that all races are racing to the bottom. I remind everyone that "A Nation at Risk" was published over half a century ago and the race to the bottom has been accelerating ever since.
What a great discussion, as usual. Love the show. I think Glen's example of the gang bangers marriage is true, just like Ian's example of the rich executive in her 30s is also true. Marriage helps neither. The gang banger will fail because of their lack of wealth, composition and skills, and the executive will succeed because she has all these things. But these are extremes. The vast majority of people will benefit from the stability and support marriage offers. Glen said it, its a virtue, its a better way to live, because its better. I could not raise my children in the same way alone as I do with my wife. They experience so much more with us together then apart. They learn more about relationships, sharing, compromise, sacrifice etc. then they would with us apart. Neither my wife or I have the resources or energy to provide our children with this life and these experiences alone. Both of us would be emotionally empty most days, with little left over for our children. Sure they would still have pretty good lives, but nothing like what they get within our marriage. Some people do have the resources and energy, that type A executive likely does, and good for her, but she is the exception. Most people and by extention most children benefit from the union. And this doesn't even touch on the broader social benefits that stable family untis bring to society.
From first hand observation growing up in Los Angeles in the 80s and 90s, I agree with your reiterating the value of marriage. I have seen the children of two parent households where one might be a thug or gangbanger and those children are different than those without a father in the home. Now if he’s abusive that’s different, but what we’re talking about is a typical gangbanger that hangs out, sells drugs or hustles and goes home, there’s a hope for them to do better and a huge benefit to the children of that Union and the mother.
@@barryseebo3535 Many thanks Barry! That was indeed a fascinating, if brief, window on the past - and a showcase of conservative talent, who doubtless won the debate, but sadly failed to win the war. Interesting that (sex education apart) the panel of education “professionals” were arguing for the maintenance of the very standards and structures which have now been totally discarded in the utopian quest for “equity and diversity”.
Nope: "Definition of entrepreneur : one who organizes, manages, and assumes the risks of a business or enterprise" The word doesn't have to mean it's done for profit, if that's what you're getting at.
Immediate thunbs up for the intro statement. Exactly what I though for a long time: Marriage is (mostly) the result (and maybe to an extend a catalyst) of stable conditions, not the cause.
Lets just hope that the root cause is not "genetitc", because if it is, "we" possibly made thousand of years of evolution in vain for a short burst of "Liberty".
Correct. The evidence is stronger than you realize, I remember hearing about studies that suggested that the children of single parents did worse on average with one key exception. The children of single parents that were initially married where one parent died before the children grew up. This is a perfect test of the case in question, is the biggest influence the missing parent themselves and all the consequences that follow from that, or is it more the case that the children of parents that got married before they had kids and had their shit together in the first place were more likely to produce children, likely through some genetic inheritance, that were more likely to succeed. The latter influence seems stronger outside some massive negative influence. Which undercuts most fools infesting youtube comments leaning into conservative solutions as the be all end all answers to performance problems and helping people be better off. If a large chunk of outcomes is based on what talents you are born with, a more just society (i.e. not one supported by bootstrap conservatives) ought to make the consequences of bad luck less severe. Universal healthcare. Some sort of low level UBI to supplement the incomes of people whose talents in the labor market will inevitably be less lucrative. Or we could follow the conservatives, pretend it's all about culture and effort and drive, fail to close or mitigate the gaps, and have more human misery be the standard.
@@ubuu7 erm, I don't think so. a social net will just further subsidize this downward spiral. you either have a system free enough for "loosers" to really (e.g. no offspring) fail, or you need a system totallitarian enough to keep the morons in check. I'd prefer the free one as it is decentralized, has inbuilt redundancies and is open ended.
@@dasdeck every modern nation on the planet has a social safety net, ours in the US is just one of the shittier ones due to our brain rot conservatives. If you want some atavistic gutter tier frontier like free for all, you are free to advocate for it but that will just lead to more death and misery. Universal Healthcare and an economic floor higher than zero does not strip away dynamism and an open ended and free society. It merely means that WHEN people inevitably fuck up the landing is some kind of net vs the concrete floor where it is HARDER to recover. Not all distribution has negative effects. Keep the totals moderate dollar amounts and remove the strings like working = the benefits evaporate away then productive behaviors are additive with the economic boosts not in competition with them.
@@maverick9370 I've thought a hundred times more about so many of these issues than the typical brain rot right winger, it takes more time to convey the thoughts. If only I had the luxury of resting on lazy fuck prescriptions like "redistribution/welfare bad" I'd barely have to type at all.
Enjoyable Learning has richly helped me to appreciate that my educational process is delightful work which can become an heartfelt labor of love for daily use with spirit and truth. - John 4:23,24 In connection to personal studies of the scriptures. - 2 Timothy 3:14-17
My concern with charter schools is that they're letting us get away with allowing regular public schools to fester. It's non-sensible to me that we can create a successful charter school and then pretend we don't know how to make a successful standard school. It's all politics and power games in the standard public schools and if charter schools weren't drawing the attention of all of these capable administrators, teachers, and invested parents we'd have a chance of getting actual change in standard schools.
"Invested parents". That's why charter schools work. When my daughter started at her newly built charter school, sometimes a parent would pick up their kid while wearing pajamas or stinking like weed or both. The expectations of behaviors changed and so did the quality of the students.
@@bwhere45 I think you are right. I am-- in the abstract --a big advocate of almost anything that helps more children do well in life (and give underprivileged families more choice), and clearly charter schools provide that. But on a different but related point to Urist, wonder about the impact to already mediocre-or-bad public schools if charter schools continue to grow to the point that there are fewer and fewer decent teachers and kids left there, and then possibly even less interest in improving them. My sense is that there has to be some type of proposal to combine the building of more charter schools while also a mechanism to increase competition for student dollars in regular public schools as well to hopefully inspire some changes to increase the quality overall. don't
@@sw3783 where did I say I want to trap them in schools? I actually said I'm for more charter schools and improving regular schools, just simply concerned about public schools becoming worse.
I don't want anyone trapped. Build as many charter schools as possible, but that doesn't seem like the long term answer to school systems with a million kids. I would hope public schools could become more competitive as well. Would you oppose that?
Correct me if I'm wrong but saying "proping up failure" sounds like you would prefer just giving up on regular public schools entirely and let them rot.
Since emperor newsom went nutso on our schools in 2020 we've been living in poverty while I use my magna cum laude to homeschool my kids... compulsory education is the heart of america's problems...school choice, including homeschools, tutors, co-ops, may be our best short-term solution
I have one question for For Mr. Rove Do your charter schools take in the problem kids do they take in the kids with special needs do they take in the kids who are disciplinary problems or do they just take in the kids who are good student .Because these are some of the issues that public school teachers have to deal with every day. So it's great to blame public schools that you may see as not giving a good education. And yes there are some teachers who don't need to be teachers be teachers but there are also some administrators that don't need to be administrators but for the most part public school teachers do it do a great job . So when you criticize public school teachers.
If Charters “select” by lottery, how could they possibly screen out a priori those with behaviour problems? I suspect that - if it turns out that some students pose barriers to the learning of others - they have a much more effective (if direct) way of correcting that situation. And you presumably have a problem with that? You feel it is the inherent RIGHT of every difficult child to impact the development of ALL the normal kids around them? I think this tells us rather more about your underlying ideology, than your “professed” commitment to “fair play” for all.
Married with children is important indeed and the best way is while children are young the mother should stay home and take care of the kids and the father works so the family can thrive . Unfortunately one income all too often is insufficient and I think that is a shame ... Decades ago a man was usually paid enough so that the one income would support their family . I think that should still be true . Employers likely pay less and expect the husband and wife to both work and that is bad for the family ...
It is still possible but with these cautions. Living standards were lower, and so were our expectations, but happiness was just as good. One car, one tv, three channels, one bathroom, one phone, one stereo, and one shared bedroom for the boys, another for the girls. No ensuite for the master br, no dishwasher, no internet, no cell phone, more smoking, and lower life expectency, but more family time.
What I'm hearing in this conversation boils down to the ultimate reality of competitiveness and interdependency in society. If we truly acknowledged and appreciated these two seemingly contradictory things, there would not exist a disparity of funding between regular public schools and charter schools. Of course this is a limited truth, since the playing field is already imbalanced. The schools with the wealthiest parents will inherently bring more resources to the school whether monetary or other forms of gains/advantages. What these conversations fundamentally miss addressing is, how much should the individual who doesn't win, in the social competition we all are engaged in, pay for not winning? Another way of asking the same question is - how much should a person be rewarded with, for winning, especially since they did not accomplish it all, on their own, and there is a limited amount of resources in the society? To address this granted would make for a much shorter conversation. That is another conversation in itself, that would call into question the effectiveness of capitalism, as so many intellectuals are engaged in the gig economy.
But who is pushing the "victimhood narrative"? It isn't black people. Just because a person is poor and uneducated doesn't mean he or she plays victimhood. Being an educated black man does not immune you from attacks from that system.
Ian decrys the low marriage rate of Blacks between 15 and 24?! Does he really think that 15 and 16 year olds should be married? Even a significant percentage, if not the majority, of twenty year olds would be better off focusing on their education, rather than getting married. Similarly, I dont think decrying a decrease in religious uptake is very insightful. There are reasons religious involvement has been in decline. Identifying those reasons may be helpful.
You’re missing the point - 91% of Blaqq W under the age of 24 that have a child is out of wedlock - 61% Whyte W- 71% in the country… truly disgusting, disturbing and shameful… this will have disastrous consequences on the near future…
33:33 - being a 29 year old black man from the "neighborhood" I can say that I've NEVER heard ANY black person make this claim. Not in real life or social media. Not as a TRUTH or as a JOKE. So I don't know what John is talking about. It seems pretty ignorant to take a minor ideal and apply it to a large percentage of a group of people. People like John, Ian and Glenn can be brilliant at times but also extremely IGNORANT.
I believe it’s almost looking at the black male through non black eyes. Maybe anecdotal but I or no one I know has ever felt pressured to gang bang out of necessity
Glenn used his econometrics chop to question claimed correlation and causal links. Ian appeared amused. Important question, why do public schools outside metro regions do well? It seems it is not "public" character but pedagogical values teachers and administrators represent.
The successful "output" of public schools in wealthy suburbs is due to the "input" (students) primed for success due to family structure and socio-economics". Teachers and administrators in suburban districts are not smarter or more dedicated than their Urban counterparts. And we also know that school funding has very little correlation with academic performance. It's all about the students ( and by extension) the parents. Experiment: Switch the student bodies in a successful suburban district ( Short Hills, NJ) and an underperforming urban district (Newark, NJ). Keep all the teachers and administrators in their original building.. No change to curriculum or physical plant. The Short Hills kids now going to Newark HS will still thrive. The Newark kids now going to Short Hills HS will still struggle. The output is determined by the input.
Being born in poor circumstances with all the drawbacks Ian Rowe lays out is PRECISELY when a person has to pull himself/herself ‘up by their own bootstraps’. People born in average or better than average circumstances have no need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
John…this thing about “I’m going to have to get black on you “ is a slight to American 🇺🇸 blacks culture,cause ….I have experienced this on the job from 🏝 people…
so, your PRIMARY position is "Showd me the MONEY!" School teachers don't make 6-figure salaries. They should certainly make a MORE than they currently do. But, if a 6-figure salary is your main goal, teaching won't result in that. So obviously, you DONT really care about impacting low-income children
The death of George Floyd was a tragedy and a horror. It looked like a fentanyl overdose but even these guys are ignoring that. I know this is a very sensitive subject, but George directly said I took too many drugs to the officers
If he did say that, no way should someone be kneeling on his neck. I'm sure there are lots of contributary factors, including fentanyl but I take it you aren't ruling out the actions of the cops particularly Chauvin ?
Need women to get married... they look at marriage and motherhood as slavery. Rather be onlyfans girls now. Can you blame them?? The overexposure of an iphone has destroyed us.
I don't think Ian Rowe adds much, if anything, to your discussions. I far prefer those with just you and John and skip your podcasts when I see Ian's name.
I am confident that Ian didn't engage Glenn's point regarding whether marriage is a cause of success or a covariate of success, and I'm pretty sure by Ian's response to it that he didn't even understand the point. And it was a good point that I waited in vain to see if Ian could respond to.
Also, I've read Ian's book and can attest that he is essentially arguing against something close to a strawman. To hear Ian tell it, there are too many folks who argue that black people are just not agents, and are essentially led by the forces of racism beyond their control to the point where they have no agency. To be honest, the only person I've ever heard argue that directly is Ta-Nehisi Coates. Even Ibram Kendi doesn't argue it. Kendi - chapter 8 of How to Be an Antiracist - very clearly argues the same point as Ian: that like any people, black people have agency that is limited and to some degree bounded by larger external forces. So, Ian's book essentially argues a common point that only seems interesting when he stawmans his opponents.
Glenn's ability to steelman is otherworldly. I know of no one better.
It comes from genuinely listening to and researching the validity of your opponents' position, not just trying to find weaknesses and pwn them.
Thank you, Ian for raising the issue of mediocre reading skills across the (racial) board!
I work as a lawyer at a nonprofit that sometimes receives requests for (and occasionally gives) legal help from members of the public in criminal cases. My old boss, who had been there for decades and had heard everything, was fond of starting those conversations with a simple question: “what brought you to the attention of the police?”
That is what I tell my kids. That phrase is so critical. How does one bring more attention to themselves by instruments of order, law or surveillance.
Poignant and accurate!
“Obstreperous” Furiously Googling over here 😅. John’s smirk 😂😂😂
Lol pre-googling ty 😂🙌🏼
I understand Glenn's point, but I think it's missing the mark. You want to normalize marriage because it resets the goals and expectations of individual in society. Marriage doesn't "fix" the problem itself, but creation of a culture that encourages and even glorifies marriage does.
I wanted to comment the same. Ian takes the position that valuing marriage is a good thing. Glenn asks Ian, “what’s so good about marriage?” Glenn proceeds to essentially state “marriage is good” as if he were answering the question he put toward Ian. He offered no better answer than Ian. This comment is the answer to Glenn’s question.
@@societalwisdom9930 taking those two young people and them getting married doesn’t fix them, it begins to slowly fix the next generations. I think that’s what Glenn was missing.
@@andreastarks2780
Which aligns with Brandon Comer’s original comment above. Those two persons marriage will not likely “fix” them. It will contribute to a process of creating a culture that encourages marriage.
As a side note, I’ve long had this thought. We celebrate weddings. We celebrate wedding anniversaries. Aside from specific weddings or specific anniversaries, the institution of marriage itself needs to be celebrated.
What "problem" would the creation of a society which glorifies marriage fix?
@@bryanmurray2723
Being that the reality is it is much simpler to assert that a social norm benefits society than it is to describe the complex mechanisms by which those benefits are realized, to assert any further claim than the next sentence would require a text-wall of elaboration beyond my willingness to endeavor. Beyond such an exhaustive elaboration, a direct (overly simplistic) answer is it plays a significant role in the stability of society on a meta level.
Ian is a great guy, hope he's able to grow his network in the upcoming years/decades!
Great conversation. Love Ian.
John, in no way are you an a-hole for pointing out the truth in a conversation on the topic. Caribbean/African kids succeeding is a function of their family culture as you point out.
Thank you very much for this conversation. Mr. Loury, have you considered inviting Katherine Birbalsingh, the British headmistress? I think your viewers (and you) would enjoy her greatly.
Gosh I wish everyone could hear these conversations. Thank you all!
John's point at 31:10 is correct imo. I can remember back in school black dudes were urkel or carlton if they were studious or not thuggish
Pear pressure and the subculture are incredibly powerful forces for most teens to overcome especially without two parents constantly guiding them.
Glenn's steelman argument against the benefits of marriage (about 17 - 30 minutes) is off the mark.
The importance of the marriage is more than anything to the direct benefit of the children that result from it. That so many children are born out of wedlock is a problem especially for those children.
So yes, that parents are married is, with respect to the parents, a marker of many favorable underlying characteristics of the parents, as discussed in the video. But too many people are having children who are not put together well enough that they can have a successful marriage. And their children will too often go on to be troubled people who become unwed parents themselves.
And think of the emotional and physical health of the mother who’s raising those children to have the companionship and love of their father as her husband. That’s just a healthier environment even in some of most challenging situations, not including where addiction is present.
Trying to listen to this whole podcast but Ian especially has a very ASMR voice. John, you’re outnumbered by silver foxes this week.
Congratulations for your wonderful project Ian!!❤
Glen. I love you. Please don't eat on camera.
I'm curious, why you think he shouldn't...?
I feel like a quote by Stephen Fry fits well into this conversation:
"One of the greatest human failings is to prefer to be right than to be effective."
This was a fantastic and informative conversation 👏
My simple question to these 3 brilliant men is why do black Americans still overwhelmingly vote Democrat after all the damage they've received by them? Thank you
Free money
The topic of blacks voting Democrat is nuanced and the historical context is very important. Dr. Leah Wright Rigueur’s book “Loneliness of the Black Republican” accurately answers your question. One major reason is the RNC does not invest resources in heavy democratic districts to compete for votes. Governor Huckabee did this and received 48% of the black vote in his state.
Because we get a better seat at the table with the democrat party, with the republicans you’ll be standing wayyy in the back not seen and definitely not heard. Only time I see senator Tim Scott is when the republicans roll him out to speak on how theres absolutely no racism in America. Can’t you ask the very same thing the other way around about poor whites that continue to vote republican and year after year nothing changes for them? I live in a red state where the party in power don’t even want to fund schools properly in majority black communities so what am I supposed to think about that? If affordable housing is trying to be build in or close to a more white and wealthy republican area they block it so what am I supposed to do about that situation? Most blacks aren’t voting this way out of ignorance so please give us more credit than that, the Republican Party just haven’t gave us a true reason to support them majority wise
A great conversation with a case very well put.
You guys should speak Katherine Barblsing of Michaela Wembley. Community School. (London UK).
She also has and still has issues with teachers and activists standing against her now successful school!
Can somebody help me understand what’s the practical importance of arguing whether marriage is a cause or an effect?
Why not just encourage it and reap the benefits?
Glenn’s “Effective Person” gets married, and that marriage is more likely to produce more Effective People who get married.
I don’t see the dichotomy.
I do see obstreperousness. 😊
I believe, because if you misattribute causality than you would miss the appropriate place to apply an effective intervention. If all it took was marriage to do well then why not just randomly put two people together marry them and tell them to have kids; everything would just work out from there. It would neglect the fact of many other pre-existing variables; culture, character, school choice, economic status, etc. I do not see it as denying that marriage is not a net positive, but it could be that there are other factors at play in the first place.
@@dontpanic00xx Marriage (commitment Union in none modern cultures) has always been and will always be a net positive. There’s no empirical evidence to the contrary.
It's more than just "our students can do hard things", Ian. It's that in doing them, one can derive a kind and level of satisfaction in life that is unlike any other human emotion. Somehow, this fact seems to have been lost throughout the US educational system. Even for the most intelligent, to achieve hard things requires hard preparatory work. It's the entire process that results in the satisfaction.
Wish Glenn and John would have a conversation with Michelle Alexander and Dr Angela Davis.
They don’t expose hard working and impactful black scholars to their audience. Alexander would totally expose and call out their shallow arguments to their audience. Plus they serve an audience that has no desire to consume blk scholars that don’t reinforce their racist views
Unfortunately, I just recently found you, Glenn, and I love your podcasts! The first one I witnessed, was you against Christopher Hitchens back in 2001. I’m starting to watch your podcast one by one, finding them very informative! You seem to be like me, a classical liberal? Not this progressivism going on now.
these two need to have a show on TV.
Why? TV is no longer viewed the way I believe you are thinking.Larger channels on social media including CZcams dwarf the viewership of TV channels.
I just love you two.
George Floyd died of Fentanyl overdose. The symptoms he exhibited, shouting, "I can't breathe!" and such are of "cardiopulmonary arrest and death" that are the most common symptoms of mixing Fentanyl with other drugs (he had a large amount of methamphetamine in his body as well). The Hennepin County Medical Examined said that there was no damage to Floyd's trachea and no evidence of asphyxiation and if he hadn't seen the video and if Floyd had been found in his home or on the street in that condition the conclusion would've been unambiguously of overdose as cause of deaths - but medical examiners are also under pressure to be woke.
Yeah, the dude wasn't great, and I mean, derp, that was obvious from the video when I first saw it. In fact, I saw it just hours after it happened, and my initial response was, "Well, that dude's high as shit." But then, you have to ask yourself why we have police officers fucking killing a dude that me and two unarmed friends could take down. You see, that's the fucking problem, and it goes beyond the dude being black. It's the way police in the US deal with people of all types. If you can't see that, then... well...
@@richardbicker640 only if bad video caused him to take Fentanyl and Methamphetamine.
username checks out
Do you think Derek Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd's death ?
Do you think his behaviour was acceptable ?
No doubt drugs were part of the picture.
However he should have had immediate medical attention. Not someone kneeling on his throat for nearly 10 minutes.
@@davidlamb7524 I recommend you look at the much longer body cam video instead of the much shorter and by now heavily propagandized cell phone video. The whole time they were subduing him they were waiting for an ambulance that eventually, after a long wait, took him away, but they didn't know what was going on - and maybe should have. They asked a couple o0f his friends who were standing there watching what was wrong with him and they said he was often like that (meaning he was often erratic and crazy to that degree).
The knee to the back (in his case it seemed to be on his shoulder blade most of the time, occasionally slipping down to his back as he thrashed around) method of subduing arrestees was taught to Chauvin and other recruits at Minneapolis police training - since removed from the regimen.
In the body cam video one sees that he was shouting "I can't breathe" long before they had him on the ground - and he WANTED to be on the ground and ASKED to be able to lay down, the cops had him in the back seat of the police car but he kicked his way out and laid down on the street.
There was TREMENDOUS pressure - including much threatening and bullying - to accept a certain narrative of the incident. The judge at the trial wouldn't sequester the jury. The defense witness' home was vandalized and the defense attorney gave a very lackluster performance and barely raised a finger.
The activists are very dishonest and serving another agenda ("destroy capitalism" et al.) and only trying to exploit the situation for it "by any means necessary" - dispensing with any honesty, ethics, good faith or fair play - for it, to attain those ends.
Police violence has decreased some 95% in the last 5 decades of steady police reform in the U.S.. in 2019 police shot and killed about 40 unarmed people nationwide. 20 were white, 9 were black, the rest from other racial categories. Police shootings are now less than 1% of all shootings in major American cities and certainly not the greatest threat to black lives.
I think Roland Fryer has some very basic, easy to implement reforms that could drastically improve public schools. The idea that it would take 50 years for public schools to improve seems silly at best.
Fifty years or a half a year , it has to be done ...
Why aren't they also addressing the ACES score and resilience score. These r good predictors.
Glen, you should have an exchange with John Biewen.
On the issue of West African/Caribbean parents doing the hard work of finding the "right school" for their children, my question is "so what"? Kudos to them. Over time, they may have a profound impact on where education goes in this country through example. How can this be considered as negative? As for what John calls "natives", perhaps a different solution will be necessary, but let's not discard progress when it is made. As Ian says, poor education outcomes is a national issue that has become color blind in that all races are racing to the bottom. I remind everyone that "A Nation at Risk" was published over half a century ago and the race to the bottom has been accelerating ever since.
What a great discussion, as usual. Love the show. I think Glen's example of the gang bangers marriage is true, just like Ian's example of the rich executive in her 30s is also true. Marriage helps neither. The gang banger will fail because of their lack of wealth, composition and skills, and the executive will succeed because she has all these things. But these are extremes. The vast majority of people will benefit from the stability and support marriage offers. Glen said it, its a virtue, its a better way to live, because its better. I could not raise my children in the same way alone as I do with my wife. They experience so much more with us together then apart. They learn more about relationships, sharing, compromise, sacrifice etc. then they would with us apart. Neither my wife or I have the resources or energy to provide our children with this life and these experiences alone. Both of us would be emotionally empty most days, with little left over for our children. Sure they would still have pretty good lives, but nothing like what they get within our marriage. Some people do have the resources and energy, that type A executive likely does, and good for her, but she is the exception. Most people and by extention most children benefit from the union. And this doesn't even touch on the broader social benefits that stable family untis bring to society.
From first hand observation growing up in Los Angeles in the 80s and 90s, I agree with your reiterating the value of marriage. I have seen the children of two parent households where one might be a thug or gangbanger and those children are different than those without a father in the home. Now if he’s abusive that’s different, but what we’re talking about is a typical gangbanger that hangs out, sells drugs or hustles and goes home, there’s a hope for them to do better and a huge benefit to the children of that Union and the mother.
No Links?
I have watched a number of excerpts from Parklands, but would be fascinated to see archive footage of the original Sowell/Friedman event.
Here is the except Ian was referring to. czcams.com/video/R6C9ZVr8J28/video.html
@@barryseebo3535 Many thanks Barry! That was indeed a fascinating, if brief, window on the past - and a showcase of conservative talent, who doubtless won the debate, but sadly failed to win the war.
Interesting that (sex education apart) the panel of education “professionals” were arguing for the maintenance of the very standards and structures which have now been totally discarded in the utopian quest for “equity and diversity”.
It's hard to fathom elevating "Rodney King", "George Floyd", "Michael Brown, "Treyvon Martin", etc. as poster children of victimhood.
Does anyone else bristle at the term "education entrepreneur" in this context?
Nope:
"Definition of entrepreneur
: one who organizes, manages, and assumes the risks of a business or enterprise"
The word doesn't have to mean it's done for profit, if that's what you're getting at.
That subtitle!
Fantastic comments on universal mediocrity, profound.
Immediate thunbs up for the intro statement. Exactly what I though for a long time: Marriage is (mostly) the result (and maybe to an extend a catalyst) of stable conditions, not the cause.
Lets just hope that the root cause is not "genetitc", because if it is, "we" possibly made thousand of years of evolution in vain for a short burst of "Liberty".
Correct. The evidence is stronger than you realize, I remember hearing about studies that suggested that the children of single parents did worse on average with one key exception. The children of single parents that were initially married where one parent died before the children grew up.
This is a perfect test of the case in question, is the biggest influence the missing parent themselves and all the consequences that follow from that, or is it more the case that the children of parents that got married before they had kids and had their shit together in the first place were more likely to produce children, likely through some genetic inheritance, that were more likely to succeed.
The latter influence seems stronger outside some massive negative influence.
Which undercuts most fools infesting youtube comments leaning into conservative solutions as the be all end all answers to performance problems and helping people be better off. If a large chunk of outcomes is based on what talents you are born with, a more just society (i.e. not one supported by bootstrap conservatives) ought to make the consequences of bad luck less severe. Universal healthcare. Some sort of low level UBI to supplement the incomes of people whose talents in the labor market will inevitably be less lucrative.
Or we could follow the conservatives, pretend it's all about culture and effort and drive, fail to close or mitigate the gaps, and have more human misery be the standard.
@@ubuu7 erm, I don't think so. a social net will just further subsidize this downward spiral. you either have a system free enough for "loosers" to really (e.g. no offspring) fail, or you need a system totallitarian enough to keep the morons in check. I'd prefer the free one as it is decentralized, has inbuilt redundancies and is open ended.
@@dasdeck every modern nation on the planet has a social safety net, ours in the US is just one of the shittier ones due to our brain rot conservatives. If you want some atavistic gutter tier frontier like free for all, you are free to advocate for it but that will just lead to more death and misery.
Universal Healthcare and an economic floor higher than zero does not strip away dynamism and an open ended and free society. It merely means that WHEN people inevitably fuck up the landing is some kind of net vs the concrete floor where it is HARDER to recover. Not all distribution has negative effects. Keep the totals moderate dollar amounts and remove the strings like working = the benefits evaporate away then productive behaviors are additive with the economic boosts not in competition with them.
@@maverick9370 I've thought a hundred times more about so many of these issues than the typical brain rot right winger, it takes more time to convey the thoughts. If only I had the luxury of resting on lazy fuck prescriptions like "redistribution/welfare bad" I'd barely have to type at all.
Necessary but not sufficient
Enjoyable Learning has richly helped me to appreciate that my educational process is delightful work which can become an heartfelt labor of love for daily use with spirit and truth. - John 4:23,24 In connection to personal studies of the scriptures.
- 2 Timothy 3:14-17
My concern with charter schools is that they're letting us get away with allowing regular public schools to fester. It's non-sensible to me that we can create a successful charter school and then pretend we don't know how to make a successful standard school. It's all politics and power games in the standard public schools and if charter schools weren't drawing the attention of all of these capable administrators, teachers, and invested parents we'd have a chance of getting actual change in standard schools.
"Invested parents". That's why charter schools work. When my daughter started at her newly built charter school, sometimes a parent would pick up their kid while wearing pajamas or stinking like weed or both. The expectations of behaviors changed and so did the quality of the students.
@@bwhere45 I think you are right. I am-- in the abstract --a big advocate of almost anything that helps more children do well in life (and give underprivileged families more choice), and clearly charter schools provide that. But on a different but related point to Urist, wonder about the impact to already mediocre-or-bad public schools if charter schools continue to grow to the point that there are fewer and fewer decent teachers and kids left there, and then possibly even less interest in improving them. My sense is that there has to be some type of proposal to combine the building of more charter schools while also a mechanism to increase competition for student dollars in regular public schools as well to hopefully inspire some changes to increase the quality overall.
don't
@@sw3783 where did I say I want to trap them in schools? I actually said I'm for more charter schools and improving regular schools, just simply concerned about public schools becoming worse.
I don't want anyone trapped. Build as many charter schools as possible, but that doesn't seem like the long term answer to school systems with a million kids. I would hope public schools could become more competitive as well. Would you oppose that?
Correct me if I'm wrong but saying "proping up failure" sounds like you would prefer just giving up on regular public schools entirely and let them rot.
Since emperor newsom went nutso on our schools in 2020 we've been living in poverty while I use my magna cum laude to homeschool my kids... compulsory education is the heart of america's problems...school choice, including homeschools, tutors, co-ops, may be our best short-term solution
I have one question for For Mr. Rove Do your charter schools take in the problem kids do they take in the kids with special needs do they take in the kids who are disciplinary problems or do they just take in the kids who are good student .Because these are some of the issues that public school teachers have to deal with every day. So it's great to blame public schools that you may see as not giving a good education. And yes there are some teachers who don't need to be teachers be teachers but there are also some administrators that don't need to be administrators but for the most part public school teachers do it do a great job . So when you criticize public school teachers.
If Charters “select” by lottery, how could they possibly screen out a priori those with behaviour problems?
I suspect that - if it turns out that some students pose barriers to the learning of others - they have a much more effective (if direct) way of correcting that situation.
And you presumably have a problem with that? You feel it is the inherent RIGHT of every difficult child to impact the development of ALL the normal kids around them?
I think this tells us rather more about your underlying ideology, than your “professed” commitment to “fair play” for all.
Married with children is important indeed and the best way is while children are young the mother should stay home and take care of the kids and the father works so the family can thrive . Unfortunately one income all too often is insufficient and I think that is a shame ... Decades ago a man was usually paid enough so that the one income would support their family . I think that should still be true . Employers likely pay less and expect the husband and wife to both work and that is bad for the family ...
It is still possible but with these cautions. Living standards were lower, and so were our expectations, but happiness was just as good. One car, one tv, three channels, one bathroom, one phone, one stereo, and one shared bedroom for the boys, another for the girls. No ensuite for the master br, no dishwasher, no internet, no cell phone, more smoking, and lower life expectency, but more family time.
What I'm hearing in this conversation boils down to the ultimate reality of competitiveness and interdependency in society. If we truly acknowledged and appreciated these two seemingly contradictory things, there would not exist a disparity of funding between regular public schools and charter schools. Of course this is a limited truth, since the playing field is already imbalanced. The schools with the wealthiest parents will inherently bring more resources to the school whether monetary or other forms of gains/advantages. What these conversations fundamentally miss addressing is, how much should the individual who doesn't win, in the social competition we all are engaged in, pay for not winning? Another way of asking the same question is - how much should a person be rewarded with, for winning, especially since they did not accomplish it all, on their own, and there is a limited amount of resources in the society? To address this granted would make for a much shorter conversation. That is another conversation in itself, that would call into question the effectiveness of capitalism, as so many intellectuals are engaged in the gig economy.
Where are the promised links??
But who is pushing the "victimhood narrative"? It isn't black people. Just because a person is poor and uneducated doesn't mean he or she plays victimhood. Being an educated black man does not immune you from attacks from that system.
This American Life is the other side now?
Ian decrys the low marriage rate of Blacks between 15 and 24?! Does he really think that 15 and 16 year olds should be married? Even a significant percentage, if not the majority, of twenty year olds would be better off focusing on their education, rather than getting married.
Similarly, I dont think decrying a decrease in religious uptake is very insightful. There are reasons religious involvement has been in decline. Identifying those reasons may be helpful.
You’re missing the point - 91% of Blaqq W under the age of 24 that have a child is out of wedlock - 61% Whyte W- 71% in the country… truly disgusting, disturbing and shameful… this will have disastrous consequences on the near future…
33:33 - being a 29 year old black man from the "neighborhood" I can say that I've NEVER heard ANY black person make this claim. Not in real life or social media. Not as a TRUTH or as a JOKE.
So I don't know what John is talking about. It seems pretty ignorant to take a minor ideal and apply it to a large percentage of a group of people.
People like John, Ian and Glenn can be brilliant at times but also extremely IGNORANT.
I believe it’s almost looking at the black male through non black eyes. Maybe anecdotal but I or no one I know has ever felt pressured to gang bang out of necessity
Glenn used his econometrics chop to question claimed correlation and causal links. Ian appeared amused. Important question, why do public schools outside metro regions do well? It seems it is not "public" character but pedagogical values teachers and administrators represent.
The successful "output" of public schools in wealthy suburbs is due to the "input" (students) primed for success due to family structure and socio-economics".
Teachers and administrators in suburban districts are not smarter or more dedicated than their Urban counterparts. And we also know that school funding has very little correlation with academic performance.
It's all about the students ( and by extension) the parents.
Experiment: Switch the student bodies in a successful suburban district ( Short Hills, NJ) and an underperforming urban district (Newark, NJ). Keep all the teachers and administrators in their original building.. No change to curriculum or physical plant.
The Short Hills kids now going to Newark HS will still thrive. The Newark kids now going to Short Hills HS will still struggle. The output is determined by the input.
Anyone who thinks that diversity is a positive hasn't taken a good look around. The non-stop friction is wearing us out.
I'm not Hispanic. Black & Hispanic are often lumped together. Perhaps you should peruse the mind of one of these, subjects 🙃
No eating on camera Glenn , it's a bad look ...
Being born in poor circumstances with all the drawbacks Ian Rowe lays out is PRECISELY when a person has to pull himself/herself ‘up by their own bootstraps’.
People born in average or better than average circumstances have no need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
GL. Please start fasting. OMAD Lose weight
You are disrespectful to a 75 years old man.
What does his weight have to do with you?
@@mlobimkhize5444 I want him to live
John…this thing about “I’m going to have to get black on you “ is a slight to American 🇺🇸 blacks culture,cause ….I have experienced this on the job from 🏝 people…
It’s a filter scheme
Do you want to know what will happen next to Trump?!
I'll teach in Ian's schools in a heart beat if my corporate salary could be matched. And don't tell me the money is not there
It sounds like you should expect 70% of an elementary school's salary plus, hopefully, a share of the charitable receipts.
so, your PRIMARY position is "Showd me the MONEY!" School teachers don't make 6-figure salaries. They should certainly make a MORE than they currently do. But, if a 6-figure salary is your main goal, teaching won't result in that. So obviously, you DONT really care about impacting low-income children
Long as he got a job ,he don’t care….
This why “blacks “ don’t get ahead….
The death of George Floyd was a tragedy and a horror. It looked like a fentanyl overdose but even these guys are ignoring that. I know this is a very sensitive subject, but George directly said I took too many drugs to the officers
If he did say that, no way should someone be kneeling on his neck.
I'm sure there are lots of contributary factors, including fentanyl but I take it you aren't ruling out the actions of the cops particularly Chauvin ?
I'm sorry. Ian means we'll, but his efforts and outlooks are not nuanced; overly simplistic and boilerplate and buzzwordsy. It's dimestore...
How do you get teens to self regulate….go program a machine weirdo 😂😂😂😂
He’s corrupting young generation of the future….
Need women to get married... they look at marriage and motherhood as slavery. Rather be onlyfans girls now. Can you blame them?? The overexposure of an iphone has destroyed us.
Sure looks bleak, but stay busy doing the best you can to help yourself and others. I'm serious,
But they are having children out of wedlock
Charter scam ….
PUBLIC SCHOOL SCAM
I don't think Ian Rowe adds much, if anything, to your discussions. I far prefer those with just you and John and skip your podcasts when I see Ian's name.
I am confident that Ian didn't engage Glenn's point regarding whether marriage is a cause of success or a covariate of success, and I'm pretty sure by Ian's response to it that he didn't even understand the point. And it was a good point that I waited in vain to see if Ian could respond to.
Also, I've read Ian's book and can attest that he is essentially arguing against something close to a strawman. To hear Ian tell it, there are too many folks who argue that black people are just not agents, and are essentially led by the forces of racism beyond their control to the point where they have no agency. To be honest, the only person I've ever heard argue that directly is Ta-Nehisi Coates. Even Ibram Kendi doesn't argue it. Kendi - chapter 8 of How to Be an Antiracist - very clearly argues the same point as Ian: that like any people, black people have agency that is limited and to some degree bounded by larger external forces.
So, Ian's book essentially argues a common point that only seems interesting when he stawmans his opponents.