I learned something, thank you. Maybe older brakes were designed that way for just this reason. With safety-critical systems like brakes, the good design anticipates all problems and scenarios, and tolerates less than ideal conditions. Cars anticipate these same issues. On car disk brakes, the calipers can move laterally on greased pins to follow any runout on the disks, just like the old style bicycle rim brakes you show. On car drum brakes too, the brake shoes mounting design is such that it can follow any radial runout in the brake drums. Great videos, it shows you are thinking!
Someone would have to take a massive hit to distort a wheel enough to be a problem, and taking the hit in the first place would be the immediate concern of fetching you off rather than the following consequences to the wheel. I can see your point but most of us have been riding modern rim brakes for a while now and though I dont have all the experience at all I dont worry about this problem but rather hitting the obstacles in the first place. Interesting to explore though
A spoke can break even without a big impact (manufacturing error that can't always be noticed upon wheel building) - on wheels with few spokes it can make the rim go out of true significantly (36-spoked wheels are less risky in such a scenario). That, combined with the fact those brakes require pads to be quite close to the rim, can cause problems.
I can tell just looking at you I have a weaker grip on my hands and never ever have I had a problem to have enough of grip on the brakes from the top in moderately severe braking as long as my brakes and cables were in order. which they mostly weren´t but that was me being lazy not maintaining and adjusting them often enough. and the state worsens gradually and you can feel time by time how strong the grip is. as for really severe demands for harsh braking - most amateurs might just not handle the severe braking when holding the horns on the top of the handlebar and they, well, we, should grab the bars from the drops anyways. the drops are there for good reasons and those include exactly the moments like dangerous traffic, fast downhill. if something surprises you, you won´t handle the handlebar from the horns regardless how well the brakes brake. anticipation and luck is what you need with your hands on the top, or higher position of the bar or a different sort anyways. as for the option of replacing the brakes with canti or V - massively agree! road rim brakes aren´t for everyone especially in wet, dirty, wintery and offroad conditions regardless if they of the new system or not. if you don´t race you won´t notice the extra grams anyways.
Unlike most of these videos, this one seems off base: (1) Wheels that are badly out of true, have broken spokes, or are out of round are structurally unsound and should not be used, period. If this happens constantly, get more reliable wheels. If wheels are home-built, consider wheels built by a reliable company (I've had good luck with Shimano wheels, for example). (2) I've used various types of rim brakes: center pull, side pulls with a single center-pivot (Weinman and Campy), and "modern" dual pivot side pull brakes (Tektro, Shimano Ultegra 6600, 6800, 7000, Bontrager direct mount dual pivot, and Dura-Ace 9200). Of these, the Tekrto were terrible and the 9200's work really well (and were now available on sale 35% off, thanks to the swerve to disc brakes). (3) If there is a problem on the road, it's unlikely that BOTH wheels will suddenly go out of whack and you have TWO brakes,, so use the brake on the unaffected wheel. Mind your downhill speeds and you'll be fine. (4) Disc brake rotors warp or may get bent by a hit, they are not immune to problems. And folks with disc brakes are not alerted as quickly by rubbing of the rims when their wheels get out of whack and so may just ride with unsound wheels. In all the years, have had only two problems with rim brakes: (1) In a solo breakaway on the uphill section on the last lap of a road race, a rear spoke broke (self-built wheels). Campy center bolt side pulls, did not compensate for the out-of-true rim as the author says. Rubbing, flipping the brake release lever stopped the rubbing, kept going, won. (2) On a ride camp in Mallorca, assigned a bike with direct mount Bontrager brakes. Rear one squealed and grabbed, so I decided to try riding without using it. Descended a number of switchbacks using only the front brake, no problem as long as I was careful with the entry speed. So rim brakes have plenty of stopping power. Problem solved by replacing the pads and cleaning the rims with alcohol.
Cantis used to be quite popular with cyclocross until relatively recently. Good cantis are awesome, though I prefer V-brakes (and mini V-brakes for road bikes) for their simpler adjustment. Relja
@@BikeGremlinUS cantis have far more natural feel compared to vbrakes which are more like on/off and flex the frame far less than vbrakes. They are often a mess to adjust, regarding mini v brakes I really dislike their feel, regular v brakes seem far more solid. Some say that good wide cantis are stronger in power than vbrakes but I havent tested them yet
@@oreocarlton3343 I think that depends on the brake and frame model/design. Having said that, many canti models provide an adjustable mechanical advantage (depending on how you set yoke the cable). That's not possible with V-brakes.
My 1997 Shimano 105's are fantastic,and my 2019 Shimano 105's on my single speed bike are also fantastic! One of the reasons for the new non movable side to side brakes, is that the newer design is not as flexible as the old one! Supposedly that's good...!??? Idk... Greetings from Kris 😎
I have never seen it happen, im not saying it cant happen. If you have a carbon fork you are only tightening the mounting bolt to 6 NM and you can easily move the calliper slightly left and right without loosening the bolt so I cant see how a wheel rotating at speed carrying a riders weights would lock up against 6 NM ? steel frames may be different but who is tightening a set a callipers up enough so that one of the pads touching the rim without the other also touching or any lever pull from the rider would cause it to lock up?
Not enough tension on bolt-joints can cause fatigue break of the bolt (I'll make a video on that). Torqued to manufacturer's specs (8 Nm for Shimano as far as I know), brakes don't move easily when a rim hits them. If a rim hits the right pad of the front brake, the torque direction is towards further tightening. For the left pad, the direction is towards loosening, which may be a better scenario.
Superb Video! I didn't know about this issue or road bikes brakes. I always wonder why they don't just use V'brakes! Do you know about the part called ''Problem Solvers Travel Agent'' ? What do you think about it? I can't seem to find it anywhere in my country and seems to be very expensive. I would put it on my V Brakes bikes to have a shorter pull. Anyway... to give you some critique: You should have clamped the bike by the seat post, not by the seat tube. :))
I have dura ace 9000 calipers, and never had any problem with brake even at high speed downhill. On the other side friends who has sram red complaining.
One side rub is not enough to lock the wheel! Also if the rim goes out of true it will rub one brake pad on only small surface area on every rotation. Really stupid reasoning.
Rub happens with pads that can move. These have the potential of the rim, as the out-of-true section reaches the fixed pads, to hit against a pad and get stuck, or at least abruptly and suddenly effectively "apply brake" for a short time.
@@stibra101 Let's say that's always the case. It needn't even lock a wheel - a sudden braking jerk is enough to cause a crash when cornering, for example.
Do you think braking (rubbing is not the word, for these modern brakes don't move and the force applied is much greater than what's generally called rubbing) would make the situation equal, or worsen it?
There is nothing worst , than old fu brakes. Same for old shifting. Man can ride only an old shity bike in a city for short distances . V-brakes or disc, rest dont Brother. Any new bike withoth Hollowtech, dont buy it.
Doesn't apply to Sram aerolink brakes, but their performance is not as good as Shimano. They are fixed and can move side to side
it should say "are not fixed"
I learned something, thank you. Maybe older brakes were designed that way for just this reason. With safety-critical systems like brakes, the good design anticipates all problems and scenarios, and tolerates less than ideal conditions. Cars anticipate these same issues. On car disk brakes, the calipers can move laterally on greased pins to follow any runout on the disks, just like the old style bicycle rim brakes you show. On car drum brakes too, the brake shoes mounting design is such that it can follow any radial runout in the brake drums. Great videos, it shows you are thinking!
Someone would have to take a massive hit to distort a wheel enough to be a problem, and taking the hit in the first place would be the immediate concern of fetching you off rather than the following consequences to the wheel. I can see your point but most of us have been riding modern rim brakes for a while now and though I dont have all the experience at all I dont worry about this problem but rather hitting the obstacles in the first place. Interesting to explore though
A spoke can break even without a big impact (manufacturing error that can't always be noticed upon wheel building) - on wheels with few spokes it can make the rim go out of true significantly (36-spoked wheels are less risky in such a scenario).
That, combined with the fact those brakes require pads to be quite close to the rim, can cause problems.
I can tell just looking at you I have a weaker grip on my hands and never ever have I had a problem to have enough of grip on the brakes from the top in moderately severe braking as long as my brakes and cables were in order. which they mostly weren´t but that was me being lazy not maintaining and adjusting them often enough. and the state worsens gradually and you can feel time by time how strong the grip is. as for really severe demands for harsh braking - most amateurs might just not handle the severe braking when holding the horns on the top of the handlebar and they, well, we, should grab the bars from the drops anyways. the drops are there for good reasons and those include exactly the moments like dangerous traffic, fast downhill. if something surprises you, you won´t handle the handlebar from the horns regardless how well the brakes brake. anticipation and luck is what you need with your hands on the top, or higher position of the bar or a different sort anyways. as for the option of replacing the brakes with canti or V - massively agree! road rim brakes aren´t for everyone especially in wet, dirty, wintery and offroad conditions regardless if they of the new system or not. if you don´t race you won´t notice the extra grams anyways.
Unlike most of these videos, this one seems off base:
(1) Wheels that are badly out of true, have broken spokes, or are out of round are structurally unsound and should not be used, period. If this happens constantly, get more reliable wheels. If wheels are home-built, consider wheels built by a reliable company (I've had good luck with Shimano wheels, for example).
(2) I've used various types of rim brakes: center pull, side pulls with a single center-pivot (Weinman and Campy), and "modern" dual pivot side pull brakes (Tektro, Shimano Ultegra 6600, 6800, 7000, Bontrager direct mount dual pivot, and Dura-Ace 9200). Of these, the Tekrto were terrible and the 9200's work really well (and were now available on sale 35% off, thanks to the swerve to disc brakes).
(3) If there is a problem on the road, it's unlikely that BOTH wheels will suddenly go out of whack and you have TWO brakes,, so use the brake on the unaffected wheel. Mind your downhill speeds and you'll be fine.
(4) Disc brake rotors warp or may get bent by a hit, they are not immune to problems. And folks with disc brakes are not alerted as quickly by rubbing of the rims when their wheels get out of whack and so may just ride with unsound wheels.
In all the years, have had only two problems with rim brakes:
(1) In a solo breakaway on the uphill section on the last lap of a road race, a rear spoke broke (self-built wheels). Campy center bolt side pulls, did not compensate for the out-of-true rim as the author says. Rubbing, flipping the brake release lever stopped the rubbing, kept going, won.
(2) On a ride camp in Mallorca, assigned a bike with direct mount Bontrager brakes. Rear one squealed and grabbed, so I decided to try riding without using it. Descended a number of switchbacks using only the front brake, no problem as long as I was careful with the entry speed. So rim brakes have plenty of stopping power. Problem solved by replacing the pads and cleaning the rims with alcohol.
I still think that the locked self centerng makes more problems than it solves. That is the point. Rim brakes in and of themselves are awesome.
ima go true my rear wheel now...
excellent observation! Older single pivit dont have this issue but misalign often, maybe cantis need to become great again?
Cantis used to be quite popular with cyclocross until relatively recently.
Good cantis are awesome, though I prefer V-brakes (and mini V-brakes for road bikes) for their simpler adjustment.
Relja
@@BikeGremlinUS cantis have far more natural feel compared to vbrakes which are more like on/off and flex the frame far less than vbrakes. They are often a mess to adjust, regarding mini v brakes I really dislike their feel, regular v brakes seem far more solid. Some say that good wide cantis are stronger in power than vbrakes but I havent tested them yet
@@oreocarlton3343 I think that depends on the brake and frame model/design.
Having said that, many canti models provide an adjustable mechanical advantage (depending on how you set yoke the cable). That's not possible with V-brakes.
My 1997 Shimano 105's are fantastic,and my 2019 Shimano 105's on my single speed bike are also fantastic! One of the reasons for the new non movable side to side brakes, is that the newer design is not as flexible as the old one! Supposedly that's good...!???
Idk...
Greetings from Kris 😎
Stiffness is a plus. The rest - not so much IMO.
You can design stifness without making the brakes non-movable.
@@BikeGremlinUS I agree with you, but I'm not an engineer 😅
I have never seen it happen, im not saying it cant happen. If you have a carbon fork you are only tightening the mounting bolt to 6 NM and you can easily move the calliper slightly left and right without loosening the bolt so I cant see how a wheel rotating at speed carrying a riders weights would lock up against 6 NM ? steel frames may be different but who is tightening a set a callipers up enough so that one of the pads touching the rim without the other also touching or any lever pull from the rider would cause it to lock up?
Not enough tension on bolt-joints can cause fatigue break of the bolt (I'll make a video on that).
Torqued to manufacturer's specs (8 Nm for Shimano as far as I know), brakes don't move easily when a rim hits them. If a rim hits the right pad of the front brake, the torque direction is towards further tightening. For the left pad, the direction is towards loosening, which may be a better scenario.
Superb Video! I didn't know about this issue or road bikes brakes. I always wonder why they don't just use V'brakes!
Do you know about the part called ''Problem Solvers Travel Agent'' ? What do you think about it? I can't seem to find it anywhere in my country and seems to be very expensive. I would put it on my V Brakes bikes to have a shorter pull.
Anyway... to give you some critique:
You should have clamped the bike by the seat post, not by the seat tube. :))
Travel Agent works, but I prefer using mini-V-brakes for road bike levers.
I have dura ace 9000 calipers, and never had any problem with brake even at high speed downhill. On the other side friends who has sram red complaining.
No braking with a broken spoke (i.e. rim hitting a pad that doesn't budge)?
One side rub is not enough to lock the wheel! Also if the rim goes out of true it will rub one brake pad on only small surface area on every rotation. Really stupid reasoning.
Rub happens with pads that can move. These have the potential of the rim, as the out-of-true section reaches the fixed pads, to hit against a pad and get stuck, or at least abruptly and suddenly effectively "apply brake" for a short time.
@@BikeGremlinUS No, the brake force from one side on small area of the rim is not enough brake force to stop the bike or get stuck as you say.
@@stibra101 Let's say that's always the case. It needn't even lock a wheel - a sudden braking jerk is enough to cause a crash when cornering, for example.
@@BikeGremlinUS you will crash from the shock of broken spoke in the middle of hard cornering, not pad rubbing
Do you think braking (rubbing is not the word, for these modern brakes don't move and the force applied is much greater than what's generally called rubbing) would make the situation equal, or worsen it?
True that's why people got weaker
There is nothing worst , than old fu brakes. Same for old shifting. Man can ride only an old shity bike in a city for short distances . V-brakes or disc, rest dont Brother. Any new bike withoth Hollowtech, dont buy it.