The Invention of Hell
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Hell looms large in many Christians' beliefs about the afterlife, but the idea isn't found in the Old Testament
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God doesn't warn Adam and Eve that the consequences of sin include confinement to hell. Moses and the prophets don't threaten the children of Israel with hellfire. Why not? Because the idea of hell had not yet been invented or brought into Judaism. We'll look at the origins of the idea.
0:00 Introduction
0:34 HISTORY, THEOLOGY, PHILOSOPHY LECTURES
1:12 centre place: history, theology,& philosophy seminar group
3:51 The Invention of Hell
5:20 Hell and Satan from the "South Park" Movie
10:50 Prolemaic Cosmology
17:03 Medieval Conception of Hell
22:18 The Devil in the Gospels
25:32 The Devil and Hell in the Apocalypse of John
26:22 The Devil and Hell in the Old Testament?
27:41 The Serpent in the Garden of Eden
30:34 The Satan (the adversary) in the Book of Job
32:32 "Lucifer" in Isaiah
36:53 In Review: The Old Testament and the Devil
37:49 What about Hell?
39:45 Neither Heaven Nor Hell
41:28 Between the Testaments
43:36 Influences on Ancient Israelite Religion
47:29 The Idea of Hell: What's It Good for?
51:23 Question #1: The Problem of Evil
56:23 Question #2: The Question of Afterlife
Hell is truly a dangerous concept. Quality of life must have been very bad for anyone to think it was okay to introduce an idea as bleak and horrible and cruel as hell. Thinking about is an act of cruelty to yourself. It’s worse than believing that you stay conscious while your body burns on a pyre or that you itch while you rot in your coffin and you can’t scratch it. What meaningless suffering.
Agree.
It’s crazy we can invent such a concept. The idea itself is highly disturbing almost a punishment in itself
Same people that invented Hell Invented Hitler. It was a false flag. They did it to themselves. It was a Hollywood production.. Literally all the Nazis have Jewish names and faces. Not a single blonde Aryan Superman in the whole lot. Not just the soldiers but everyone around him. Hitler and Hess were paid off in prison where they wrote Mein Kampf. Ordering luxury cars knowing they were getting out years early somehow and having parties in prison. Hmm..
They all had to be, circumcision gives them away. Slight of hand only works the other way around guys. Nice try. Can't magic new skin that isn't there. Funny that only in Germany did it fall out of fashion for Jews to circumcize. Weird that modern Jewish scholars should recognize that all the Nazis were Jewish. They have Jewish names. It's freaking obvious asf. Why do we ignore what they had just done in Russia btw and constantly rag on about being such victims of the Holocaust but had just starved and murdered tens of millions of Russians and Ukrainians and slaughtered the royal family brutally. They were in big trouble. So they turned themselves into victims to hide behind. I think the camps were the transfer stations.
Who was doing all that filming around Hitler btw? Must have looked like Hollywood studio city
It's to keep people in line, nothing more. Ruling through fear is only effective if people keep being afraid. The threat of burning at the stakes can be ineffective but if they can be convinced there's another stakes that's forever and inescapable, their fear will keep them in line.
Tell that to Jesus when you meet him.
The most disturbing concept of hell is how
DESPERATELY christians want it to exist
💯👍 They are SUCH a meanspirited and hateful cult.
Agree 💯💯
Christ talked about hell more than heaven so is Jesus a liar now!? lol
@@LightningDoesStrikeThrice Why don't you go read what Bart Ehrman, one of the most acclaimed Biblical scholars, has written on this subject or watch one of his many interviews on this subject rather than blindly accepting the propaganda given by your pastor.
@@LightningDoesStrikeThrice how can u talk seriously about ect hell and lol in the same sentence? Without Christ religion makes people worse.
What a privilege to have content like this, and for free! And without worrying that we'll be burned at the stake or anything! What a time to be alive.
😂👏
But not for all. Go to China.
I don't follow you. Jesus said that there was "a place... for the devil and his angels." and that He saw them all falling from Heaven. The Bible talks about Sheol, but without looking, that may be a place were most people go, both the good and the bad. In Hades, there was "a bell curve", one might say. Only the very best went to Elysium, and only enemies of the gods went to Tartarus. All the rest lived "vague, unsubstantial existences" in one place, maybe partitioned. Virgil puts Dido in a special section for those who died for love. Other religions have one place for the good people, another for the bad souls. Only the name is different. There is no reason why Jews or Christians should be different. The consistency is the belief in an Afterlife of some kind. [E&OE]
And that Becuase you western Godless and Souless robot corrupted by a wealthy Society now you say it??? Is it that a new theory front you Western and Godless idiot because you do not know what to do with science once you are death ☠️???... Poor Freaking robot 🤖 without soul 😂😂. From nothing they come nothing they will be, very nice thinking you western godless and Souless idiot.. 😂😂 Jesus called viper and knew that you will be betrayed him, that why he said he comes to bring a sword ⚔️ and not peace, which means there will be people who will believe him and not who will not, so why you western Godless Idiot let him be right? 😊See godless and Souless idiots talking about a God that they do not have, it is like to someone who spend a lot of time stading aliens or saints claus in which he does not believe. 🤣🤣🤣
Godless and Souless western idiot are so obsessed with those videos because they do not have soul or god...
Westerns godless and Souless idiot are the only arrogante people that want explain to others their own religion and God... Because they do not have god... They are freaking Souless robot 🤖 🤣🤣🤣
But you are just a viper 🐍 as Jesus said, and he was right and what Viper do, expecting biting???
@@jason_samosa And that Becuase you western Godless and Souless robot corrupted by a wealthy Society now you say it??? Is it that a new theory front you Western and Godless idiot because you do not know what to do with science once you are death ☠️???... Poor Freaking robot 🤖 without soul 😂😂. From nothing they come nothing they will be, very nice thinking you western godless and Souless idiot.. 😂😂 Jesus called viper and knew that you will be betrayed him, that why he said he comes to bring a sword ⚔️ and not peace, which means there will be people who will believe him and not who will not, so why you western Godless Idiot let him be right? 😊See godless and Souless idiots talking about a God that they do not have, it is like to someone who spend a lot of time stading aliens or saints claus in which he does not believe. 🤣🤣🤣
Godless and Souless western idiot are so obsessed with those videos because they do not have soul or god...
Westerns godless and Souless idiot are the only arrogante people that want explain to others their own religion and God... Because they do not have god... They are freaking Souless robot 🤖 🤣🤣🤣
But you are just a viper 🐍 as Jesus said, and he was right and what Viper do, expecting biting???
This gives me a chance to plug one of my favorite authors, the late, great Scottish science fiction writer Iain M. Banks. His 2010 novel "Surface Detail" is centered around a very literal "invention of Hell." The book posits a technologically advanced civilization with a ferociously dogmatic and judgmental religion, that decides to make sure there's a literal hell by creating a virtual one in cyberspace, uploading the consciousness of dying people who are judged to deserve damnation, and torturing them in cyberspace indefinitely. The plot is about a struggle between this culture and others who are appalled by this virtual Hell and are trying to end it.
Wow! That is a very interesting concept for a distopian novel - and appropriate too. Thanks.
@@juliankennedy6525 And yet it's part of his "Culture" series about a utopian society. Which is where the conflict comes in.
Wow I'm glad to see the muse here amazing even concept
So the book is about how Hell is real. Got it. Just like the Church Fathers have said up until the current heretic in the Papacy.
@@catsoffirstave1091 So that's what you got out of this? Wow.
I have Been binging this channel for some time now. I am amazed. The scholararic level, the earthbound humility. You got yourself a treasure there.
Love from an atheist!!
Scholastic?
I am glad you felt the need to tell us you are an atheist, congratulations.
I used to be an Atheist. Bless you
I am liking the channel, too. We atheists who are interested in religion are a different breed. I think part of the fascination is learning about the wild variety of loony stuff people have believed over the centuries.
@@notsocrates9529Nothing to be ashamed of in being an atheist. Being able to look at reality honestly and handle the truth is something to be proud of. I would be embarrassed to harbor superstitious beliefs...
I'm seeing this video is 3 years old. Wish I had seen it then. What a breath of fresh air
If hell doesnt exist, then where do youtube ads come from? Checkmate.
Lecture: "The Invention of Hell".
First remark: "It's super hot here in Toronto."
So illuminating! If only everyone who identifies as Christian, especially fundamentalists and “biblical literalists”, could be exposed to this important lesson.
Does this view of hell diminish the threat of God's judgment?
Does this teaching soften the urgency of repentance?
Is this offering the sinner any hope of salvation beyond this life?
Modern views of hell won't survive the test of biblical fidelity. They'll allow the sinner to feel more comfortable and complacent by defanging God, making Him appear less severe.
Challenges to the doctrine of hell start out by questioning what the Bible clearly says, but they don't end there. Wayne Grudem, recognizing the trend to make hell appear more bearable, noticed a tragic pattern:
The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment…tends to be one of the first doctrines given up by people who are moving away from a commitment to the Bible as absolutely truthful […]. Among liberal theologians who do not accept the absolute truthfulness of the Bible, there is probably no one today who believes in the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment. (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology)
Two of the more prominent campaigns against hell are attacks against its eternality and severity.
Will hell really be that bad?
Whenever Jesus described hell, He was never flippant or dismissive. He used vivid, terrifying terms to describe the final destination of sinners, shocking and scaring His audiences with frighteningly graphic metaphors.
Hell is a place so bad that you should be willing to cut off sensitive, irreplaceable parts of your body to avoid it (Matthew 5:29-30); even martyrdom would be worth avoiding the torment of hell (Matthew 10:28). He always presented hell as a horrific place of intolerable suffering.
His descriptions are consistent with other biblical writers. Daniel referred to hell as a place of shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). Paul called it a place of endless destruction and punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10). Jude called hell a place of eternal fire and darkness (Jude 7). The Apostle John described hell as a place where sinners suffer everlasting torment, with no rest day or night (Revelation 14:9-11).
Taken together, all those descriptions of hell communicate pain, fear, loss, anger, separation, and hopelessness. It's utter agony, eternal torment.
Agony and Torment!
The New Testament describes hell as a place of unimaginable torment. Biblical writers help us picture scenes of unspeakable horror, and most of the time they’re merely quoting what Jesus said about hell:
Weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12)
Spiritual and bodily destruction (Matthew 10:28)
Fiery furnaces (Matthew 13:42, 50)
Outer darkness (Matthew 22:13)
Unquenchable fires (Mark 9:48-49)
Endless torments (Luke 16:23-24)
John Calvin, commenting on those descriptions, wrote, "By such expressions, the Holy Spirit certainly intended to confound all our senses with dread." Calvin understood the Bible's appeal to our senses. When you read about hell in Scripture, you can almost hear the agonizing wails, smell the smoke and burning sulfur, see the flames from the lake of fire, and feel the seething anger of the wicked as they gnash their teeth at the Righteous Judge.
Jesus used pictures and metaphors to help us understand the horror of hell. Darkness represents loneliness, insecurity, the sense of being lost and disoriented; fire represents the excruciating pain of burning; and a lake of fire represents the sense of drowning, suffocating, taking the burning sulfur internally. These vivid pictures of hell's environment should provoke a reasonable sense of fear in a normal, thinking person. No one can come away with the idea that hell is a tolerable place to spend eternity.
Abandonment!
While it's true that hell is a place of untold physical pain and suffering (fire, scorching, being cut to pieces), I think we often overlook the mental agony of being completely forsaken-abandoned for all eternity. After all, the most chilling cry from our Lord as He suffered God's wrath on the cross stemmed not from physical pain, but from being forsaken by the Father. Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46).
The significance of God forsaking the Son in relation to hell: "This is a reminder to all sinners that while hell is the full fury of God's personal punishment presence, He will never be there to comfort. He will never be there to show sympathy. He will never bring relief. […] it is both the punishment of God and the absence of comfort. […] That's hell-punishment without relief ("The King Crucified: Consummation at Calvary"). As the Puritan Thomas Vincent put it, "Not only will the unbeliever be in hell, but hell will be in him too."
Imprisonment!
The New Testament frequently presents hell as a prison-a place of eternal confinement (Matthew 22:13; Jude 13; 2 Peter 2:9). It's impossible to understand first-century prison conditions by looking at American prisons today where accommodations include cable television, three square meals, educational opportunities, outdoor exercise, and toilet/shower facilities. In many of the world's jails throughout history, jailors didn't just treat prisoners like criminals, but rather as sub-humans, as animals.
But even the worst of earthly prison conditions serve as weak analogies to the eternal dungeon of God's hell. God will offer nothing to comfort or relieve his agony-ever. In hell, sinners will forever be hopeless, helpless, and powerless. God casts them into hell for one reason-punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
Look at the Cross!
If you want an inside glimpse of the agonies of hell, look at the Savior in Gethsemane as He anticipated the cross. See the bloody drops of sweat falling from his body as He faced the reality of absorbing His Father's wrath.
Scripture is abundantly clear about the doctrine of hell. Nothing good can come from advocating a view of hell that makes it out to be anything less than a hopeless, agonizing, eternal separation from the good and gracious presence of God.
If you reject, diminish, or neglect the doctrine of hell, you undermine the gravity of our sin in contrast to the holiness of God. But armed with accurate teaching on hell, you help the sinner understand why he must flee from the wrath of God to the mercy of Jesus Christ.
You shine quite dim
Well, Calvinism. I wonder what in his personal experience led to his articulation of the depths of evil at work in this world. His pessimism about humanity. “Invention” is a poor choice of words. Discovery, maybe.of the banality of evil?
Yes, exposing people to things they don’t want to hear always works great.
Christians have been exposed to these heresies since the beginning. The musings by this person have been brought up, debated, and answered repeatedly and categorically for centuries. These are self-promoters and book sellers who know you won't go look things up for yourself to check their veracity. Like Ehrman, potty mouth Carrier, and Dawkins. I hope you will expose yourself to the Truth and not listen to these haters only. You are missing out on everything good and holy in this world.
I can't recall the author,but a great book on the formation of the concept of the Devil is "The Prince of Darkness". It helps filling the details in of how strict monotheist Judaism became dualist Christianity,the Zoroastrian "Angra Mainu" mainly.
Zoroastrianism!
@@pleroma49 I have heard of it but don't know much about it.
Why ignore Islam?
Christianity is not" dualist," Maybe you are confused by the platonist views of many Christians. This is why St. Thomas was so drawn to Aristotle. It is a better fit to the dogma of the incarnation. The hyper Augustinianism of Calvinism does tend to promote the Devil to the status of a demi-god.
Anarchy and polytheism were just as strict, in a licentious way. They killed Christians and other brave refusers for not sacrificing to their "gods" (fallen angels at best).
43:13 I used to be part of a pretty fundamentalist church community where the people seemed obsessed with going to heaven by any means while ignoring this life (while being afraid of almost everything around them in no small part because of their conception of Satan and hell) and when I found this out about Judaism it felt like night and day difference, it was one of the reasons why for a short time after I left that I considered converting to that religion (at least the more liberal branches like Reform) but didn’t in the end but I still respect it for this and one of the rabbis I know once told me that to get to their version of heaven all I had to do was to be a good person.
Thank you for presentations like this one, it was actually being told that the Eden story was literal in some form instead of a fable as you said that ultimately broke my faith in Christianity as a whole but I respect believers who’re willing to look at the evidence honestly instead of peddling things like creationism as more fundamentalist Christians do.
What is good to see your comment I went to conservative Judaism about 8 years ago.. try different churches in Christianity. It is so oppressive and depressing but in Judaism I had all my questions answered I have not converted, but I do choose that as my belief system now.
@@marshawoods4983 glad to hear it worked out for you, another reason why I respect Judaism over most of Christianity is that it’s more willing to engage questions instead of ignoring them or giving answers that don’t stand up to scrutiny (isn’t the Talmud basically a bunch of arguments rabbis had long ago?) and although I ended up adopting Unitarian Universalism instead, because that’s the only religion I felt I actually belonged to, I might go to a Shabbat service once in a while
I had a spiritual awakening and let me assure you that you are clueless
Ignorant comment. Saying you had a spiritual awakening doesn't make you an authority on anything. @@PuppetMasterdaath144
They are the best words ever said, just be a good person. Your own decent values will be enough to see you through. Pass it on ✌️☘️
Huge fan of this lecture series. Thank you!
Metaphor or not, how does it make sense that if you do evil on earth, you’re punished for eternity by the guy that wants you to do evil on earth 🤔
You’re not punished by the devil. You’re punished by God. The devil will be punished in Hell as well according to the Bible. This is why it’s important to read the scripture yourself
@@deedunn1989 But the Bible is so stupid and really doesn't make any sense 😂
@@deedunn1989but the bible is so stupid and really doesn’t make any sense😂
@deedunn1989 Yes it's important to read. Because if you had you would know that evil is cast into a lake of fire and destroyed. There's no such thing as eternal torture
@@aguy446 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Literally right there.
Many dilemmas I had have been answered. Awsome video. Thank you John!
The concept of hell terrified me as a kid.
That's the point! How else can you keep people brainwashed into non-sensical religions if not by fear?
Same here.
Li'l Al honestly after living my life only thing I say hell sure exists on earth and so does heaven. I experienced both.
@@lil-al You don't need hell really, you just need a cool band and flashing lights nowadays... hell is not really something that people take seriously now.
not fear its love that brings people to Christ@@lil-al
No channel on CZcams does a better job of taking religion and putting it in its historical context in a truthful and accurate way and showing how it has evolved almost like getting a ivy league education in religions studies for free, thank you for all your hard work I've learned much
And that Becuase you western Godless and Souless robot corrupted by a wealthy Society now you say it??? Is it that a new theory front you Western and Godless idiot because you do not know what to do with science once you are death ☠️???... Poor Freaking robot 🤖 without soul 😂😂. From nothing they come nothing they will be, very nice thinking you western godless and Souless idiot.. 😂😂 Jesus called viper and knew that you will be betrayed him, that why he said he comes to bring a sword ⚔️ and not peace, which means there will be people who will believe him and not who will not, so why you western Godless Idiot let him be right? 😊See godless and Souless idiots talking about a God that they do not have, it is like to someone who spend a lot of time stading aliens or saints claus in which he does not believe. 🤣🤣🤣
Godless and Souless western idiot are so obsessed with those videos because they do not have soul or god...
Westerns godless and Souless idiot are the only arrogante people that want explain to others their own religion and God... Because they do not have god... They are freaking Souless robot 🤖 🤣🤣🤣
But you are just a viper 🐍 as Jesus said, and he was right and what Viper do, expecting biting???
Next time I go to a Cimitery to se how they cook pasta 🍝 😂😂😂😂
And that Becuase you western Godless and Souless robot corrupted by a wealthy Society now you say it??? Is it that a new theory front you Western and Godless idiot because you do not know what to do with science once you are death ☠️???... Poor Freaking robot 🤖 without soul 😂😂. From nothing they come nothing they will be, very nice thinking you western godless and Souless idiot.. 😂😂 Jesus called viper and knew that you will be betrayed him, that why he said he comes to bring a sword ⚔️ and not peace, which means there will be people who will believe him and not who will not, so why you western Godless Idiot let him be right? 😊See godless and Souless idiots talking about a God that they do not have, it is like to someone who spend a lot of time stading aliens or saints claus in which he does not believe. 🤣🤣🤣
Godless and Souless western idiot are so obsessed with those videos because they do not have soul or god...
Westerns godless and Souless idiot are the only arrogante people that want explain to others their own religion and God... Because they do not have god... They are freaking Souless robot 🤖 🤣🤣🤣
But you are just a viper 🐍 as Jesus said, and he was right and what Viper do, expecting biting???
I guess godless and Souless idiot they need other to explain other people religion because they do not have God or a soul, right???
Mythvision interviews historical scholars like Bart Ehrman, Fransesca S. and others. All of this stuff comes up.
@@joelrivardguitar Man I will pray for you to have (believe) God again in your life.
Also because:
Believe in God is
*Free
* It those not required any political changes (believer can be con right, centre, wing, liberal, conservative and so on).
* You will not change that Much, only Believe in Him.
* Once you are alone is only Him you have.
* So if you feel sick.
* Or Someone of your family, unfortunately does.
* once you get older you will have him
* Or before to die.
* You will not think the people who lived and the one you knew left this world are Nothing (and in some cases is like they never existed, because none remembers them or have a picture of them, but have reached God.
* You will see people not just human but sons with a Father (which believe me will help, because you give them another positive attribute, which will help you to define them with more meaning).
* You will have another purpose in this life: which is not. Be good and help people, but pray for them (and praying is a religious thing) and work not only for this life but also for after life,because working for the next life give you more hope and let you think about your future future... Just as you think for tomorrow.
And basically we stop this thing that we westerns do to be the most arrogants people in te world, and again losing the faith on God, only because we live in a ealthy society we want live materiliscally, especially for our youth (they will need God anyway once older, believe it or not).
I hope you understand that (without any further questions)
May God bless you and the peace for Jesus upon you ☺️
I find the idea that C. S. Lewis had in the last book of the Narnia series was quite interesting. That version of heaven is a place that you explore. You go "further up and further in" forever, meaning that heaven isn't just perfect, but it somehow gets better continuously for eternity.
That’s closer to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Heaven.
@@mmore242 That's interesting. It answers the question of how heaven can be so great without being boring.
READ THE HOLY BIBLE SCRIPTURES....
JESUS CHRIST IS OUR ONE AND ONLY SAVIOR...THE HOLY KING JAMES BIBLE IS THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD...TURN TO JESUS CHRIST WHILE YOU STILL CAN. ..
WITHOUT JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOR...YOUR DEVILS FOOLS CAKES WAITING FOR THE FURNACE OF HELL...
That is pretty unscriptural. That means you can believe whatever and however you want to see things on everything and anything in life.
You can believe Black Holes have pet shops, too.
@@mmore242 That's garbage that opens the door to deception ...Satan wins as long as it can put anything between you and the blood sacrifice paying for all sins ...Believing on the ONE SON OF ALMIGHTY FATHER GOD GIVING HIS LIFE ON THE CROSS...RISING ON THE 3RD DAY...SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF ALMIGHTY FATHER GOD...JESUS CHRIST WILL RETURN TO JUDGE ALL THE LIVING AND THE DEAD...
WITHOUT FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST...ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE ALMIGHTY FATHER GOD...FAITH COMES BY HEARING...
HEARING THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD WRITTEN IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES...THE KING JAMES HOLY BIBLE I RECOMMEND....WITHOUT FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST....YOUR GOING TO END UP IN HELL...GOD GAVE HIS SON...TO REJECT THE GREATEST GIFT PAID BY SUCH A HEAVY PAINFUL COST ...REJECTING JESUS CHRIST IS ASKING GOD TO SEND YOU DIRECTLY STRAIGHT INTO THE FIRES OF HELL...
BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST...DO AS THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY FATHER GOD INSTRUCTED US BY THE APOSTLE PAUL ...THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST...FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL YOU LOVE ALL YOUR HEARTS ALL YOUR MINDS ALL YOUR STRAIGHT ALL OF YOUR LIFE ...KNOWING GOD OUR FATHER JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR AND HIS HOLY SPIRIT LOVE YOU ...RETURN THE LOVE THATS GIVEN EVERYTHING FOR YOUR LOVE IN RETURN...GOD BLESS YOU ALL...
Just the idea of any kind of afterlife whatsoever terrifies the crap out of me.
Read the bible the answers are all in there
The universe is a VERY strange place. From the Basel Problem to Special Relativity. It shocks me that a lot of the scientific community treats these things as common instead of strange and mind-blowing.
The Bible is BS.
All of scientists are freemason's if that means anything to you.
The church invented hell precisely to scare the crap out of people.. sorry that their scare tactics worked on you.
Such an amazing approach! This was extremely helpful, coming from someone who was a Roman Catholic for 30 years.
Your first mistake
Even at 5 years old, sitting in church, I knew that both heaven and hell were ridiculous concepts. I had no desire to live in bliss for eternity.
Yeah the same for me. The ideas of an eternity and bliss are not really compatible with each other. It’s one or the other not both.
Then there’s the idea of bliss when some friends and family are experiencing eternal suffering. How could that ever work? It’s a disturbed person who can derive bliss from the eternal and perpetual torture of others. If that’s Heaven then it’s a place crammed with psychopaths
I feel like it would be a bit like having a psychic orgasm that lasts forever, after a while the bliss would become painful or maddening, thereby becoming a kind of weird hell lol
@@mistressofstones interestingly said!
Only hell and heaven I know and have experienced is on planet earth.
I think if we’re thinking of it in human terms or in terms of our reality then yes but maybe there is something more complex beyond this that we couldn’t comprehend. Not saying I hold belief in either concept but it’s just a thought.
That was exactly my first thought when I was a boy of about 8 years and heard the first time of en eternal heaven (of joyful singing and so so): What a horrific "reward"!
You don t have the understanding of how joyful singing entails , you are in a state of continuos bliss because of the most High being love itself u don t get bored because he is whom completes you your inner intangible soul no worries no thirst no hunger no upset nothing misses to you , your perception of it changes depending of what you were used to prior to hearing it this world brainwashes you since kid , my self I started reading the Bible after 22 yrs old...
@mgmarius70 No, actually, your brain doesn't work like that. You have to come down from the "high" so that you can desire it again.
@@nauticdixons I meant the after life
@@mgmarius70 Being in a “state of continual bliss” with no way to oppose it or entirely opt out means that free will is absent in heaven. It seems quite purposeless to test humans by granting us free will on earth only to snatch it away in the afterlife.
@@TSpartanDR U made a good point indeed! 🤭
Thanks for a very interesting and educational talk. I was raised a Southern Baptist. I like to say that in a way that tends to make people ask, "So, what happened?" I answer that, "I grew up!" My mother, who converted to Catholicism, tells people she's a "recovering Southern Baptist." I haven't followed any particular organized religion since becoming an adult. They just don't do it for me. I concentrate on the idea of God, and my relationship to Him personally. I view my 'spiritualism' (if that's what it is) as being just between me and God. To me, the problem of evil is answered by the following ideas. First, "evil" [bad humans, basically] prospers simply because unscrupulous people have more options, and they have no compunctions about taking advantage of them! I don't think there's any need for a devil incarnate. But if there is such a being, he probably gets great amusement from people saying, "The devil made me do it", while he just sits back and reaps the benefits of people's weaknesses and weird imaginations. Second, I answer the problem of suffering by saying that, as God's children, we need to grow up. If God is a parental figure, then He probably wants that for us very badly. Only by letting us make our own mistakes and figure things out for ourselves can He hope to teach us wisdom. In other words, God's out there, and He loves us, but He's not going to save us from ourselves. We'd learn nothing. He's not a big green genie in the sky. This clearly leaves us only with our faith, and maybe that's how it should be. tavi.
He's not going to save kidnapped, molested, tortured, sick children either, is he? Some parental figure that is. He knows it's going on, he has the power to stop it, but can't be arsed. Great. Why would you believe in that sort of monster???
@@lil-al I understand your anger. That's why as a Christian which has outgrown Christianity as I'm really a mystic, I believe in reincarnation. This could be why everything gets sorted out in the heavenly wash. Just my ponderings. I'm not a jewish lover, I love all people, but why did millions of them go to the gas chamber. Why did the West have to meddle in the Middle East and Far East for their hidden agendas and probably created terrorism. Their own pple had to rise up against their regimes. Not us. They needed to fix themselves even unto death. It happened in my husband's country Chile in the Revolution. Dead bodies everywhere torturing etc because pple went against Pinochet.
@@margueritearavena2256 But why should there be a reckoning or a heavenly wash? Life is hard, life is unfair. That's how it is, and that's why people wish a god was ultimately in control. But there is no evidence of any such thing. The only "reckoning" we can be sure of is that which we can bring about ourselves. And why believe in reincarnation? No evidence, just more wishful thinking that things will work out eventually. It won't unless we do something. I'm not angry btw, just incredulous that people can believe in such utter nonsense!
@@lil-al Good morning from Australia. When thw popes met in Constantinople, they decided not to put the teachings of reincarnation in the bible. It's all covered up in the Vatican. My parents knew a priest who resided there.
Yes, life is unfair. When I say heavenly wash, perhaps it's the wrong terminology. There is a dimension that we go to. I had a near death experience and so did my father and one of my singing students. My parents also came to visit me a few times when they passed over. My student said she was very upset to come back as she wanted to stay but a being in a long white robe with light all around him told her she had to come back. Life is mysterious Li'l. My dad told me when I was in my late twenties that I was a mystic because of all my experiences since I was 5. Look up mystical christianity. I remembered my dad calling me that only a few days ago so I looked it up. There were 3 people of different faiths talking about their journey as mystics. Also, I talked to a Sufi last year about one of my visions and she said that what I saw and what I was told is in their writings. We are all One. Our real home is where we return. Maybe one day, we'll recognise each other there and feel like our life has been just a drop in the ocean here. But I totally agree with you. Life is unfair. Oyr eldest daughter is married to a Bahai. They had to escape Iran because of persecution. Their bank accounts were blocked, they couldn't sell their home and caught a 3am bus to Turkey where they slept on a concrete floor for 2 years. They were finally given asylum and here they are in little Perth. My husband lived through the Chilean revolution and many of the university students were tortured at the stadium close by to him and dead bodies everywhere on the street. Fortunately, his family got here and have settled here in Perth.
I've met many pple from all backgrounds and cultures that have suffered so much. I used to cry a lot for the world. I send kindness to you and wish you the best.
@@lil-al The bible was wrote with prophecy to prove there is a God & what his agenda is. This life is hard & we go through lots of hell. The bible clearly tells us why. People cry about their hard life but soon as they look back they wouldn't change it. WHY IS THAT? The bible says we will have trials & Jesus will not stop it but will walk with you through it. He does promise to make something good from it. You can believe what you want. This guy missed a ton of other scriptures & acts like there's just a few. You can never read just the scripture. You must read the context to understand what its talking about.
I have been working to pull so many of these elements together myself. I feel that, given my time & resources I got the rough collection of them. THIS however, is an excellent treatment of the interplay between Dante & Milton with Aristotle/Plato and Christianity. Quite the layer cake! Thanks!
James Stewart, It's a Wonderful Life
I'm not even Christian and love this content. It gives me faith that many "Christians" will learn their history and the truth behind their religion through work like yours.
Imagine that, a non-Christian supporting a Christian Church.
There is actually no such thing as A Christian . There were zero Christians on the planet just a short 3000 years ago. They do not exist. If we break down the word we get Christ -ian. In Latin, -ian is A man, so, its a Christ Man. What is the Christ? A person? No? Is it you? No? Are you a man? Yes? what is A man? Are you a belief? No? Are you alive? yes? Is religion alive? Are you religion?
Pagan means non-Christian by the way. Normally impying polytheism but not ncecessarily. Just, not Christian. But, Christianity does have Pagan roots
You should just not say anything unless you know what you are talking about.
Pagan doesn't just mean "not Christian", there are a lot of religions other than Christianity. Christianity isn't 3000 years old... it isn't even 2000 years old... in about 210-300 years it will be 2000 years old officially. (Council of Nicea)
Christ = Christened = Annointed = Oiled Feet/Body = King/Priest
"King of the Jews" because of being called Christ.
Jesus = Iesus = Yeshua = Saviour
Jesus Christ = Saviour the Annointed
@@M0VI3GUY I agree. You should have looked up the etymology first. Pagan means Non-Christian. You only make yourself look bad
pagan (n.)
c. 1400, perhaps mid-14c., "person of non-Christian or non-Jewish faith," from Late Latin paganus "pagan," in classical Latin "villager, rustic; civilian, non-combatant" noun use of adjective meaning "of the country, of a village," from pagus "country people; province, rural district," originally "district limited by markers," thus related to pangere "to fix, fasten," from PIE root *pag- "to fasten." As an adjective from early 15c.
The religious sense often was said in 19c. [e.g. Trench] to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the Latin word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c. 202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (such as milites "soldier of Christ," etc.).
The English word was used later in a narrower sense of "one not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim." As "person of heathenish character or habits," by 1841. Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908.
Pagan and heathen are primarily the same in meaning; but pagan is sometimes distinctively applied to those nations that, although worshiping false gods, are more cultivated, as the Greeks and Romans, and heathen to uncivilized idolaters, as the tribes of Africa. A Mohammedan is not counted a pagan much less a heathen. [Century Dictionary, 1897]
The English surname Paine, Payne, etc., appears by old records to be from Latin paganus, but whether in the sense "villager," "rustic," or "heathen" is disputed. It also was a common Christian name in 13c., "and was, no doubt, given without any thought of its meaning" ["Dictionary of English Surnames"].
@@M0VI3GUY Mary = Virgin = No birth of a child
Theonym = Name of a deity that does not exist
Religion = from the Latin, Religare, to tie, to bind or twart from forward progress.
Theonyms like Jesus or Mary or Noah or Abraham are not real people
Just like old religion, and Zeus, Aphrodite, Sophia, or Selene., or Perseus.
El, Allah and Jehovah are the same. Also called Satan
or The Father
Sorry but, that is the truth
Religion will never be real
Good stuff this is the kind of church I could get behind. Honestly examining the issues without a bunch of foregone conclusions
He has a lot of foregone conclusions: there is no hell, everyone goes to heaven, traditional Christianity got it wrong in condemning homosexuality and same-sex marriage, etc etc etc
God is love, not hate
Sodomy utterly messes up one's chakras and spinal energy etc. God is not a giant breast endlessly ooozing mother milk to her children to lazy, stupid and indulgent to self correct. Pain is Her teacher in such cases. Ignorance of our inner nature must be faced squarely. It is not hate to ban practices that destroy society, families and contagious in their addiction. @@herminepursch2470
Well, I’m glad I found your channel is every iterated, but I have been listening to it for the past six years with other channels like yours.. and I like how you make remarks with your dry sense of humor I think it’s funny very enjoyable talk thank you very much
Where can I find the video mentioned around 18:00 "a brief biography of the devil"? I'd love to watch it, but I can't seem to find it. Thanks!
I wish you discussed Edward Fudge and his work explaining how Jesus’ words about hell and it’s representation in all scripture portrays hell means not in paradise - destroyed souls - not tormented forever
"Mythology is a metaphorical language and should be read as poetry not as prose." Joseph Campbell
I have a great time with this channel . How can i join the online meetup ,and what fees are involved?
I learn so much from this channel. I'm so glad I found it.
You learned 16th century Protestant anti-Catholic propaganda. Please go check up on a few of the things he says to see if they are true. He's a hater spewing hate and making BANK on videos and probably books and speeches. He is a snake oil charmsman and you look more intelligent than that if that's your real picture. Hook. Line. Sinker. Jesus is real and He loves YOU, you, you!!!
Hello John! I really enjoy all your videos and also watch them everytime they show up. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us .Cheers!
You can’t say Hello without Hell 😂
this is my first Centre Place video. I listened to the mission statement and my first reaction was suspicion. It's kind of a sad state we've gotten society into, I think. 5 years ago I would have unreservedly approved of and applauded the mission statement, but now my initial reaction is "okay, that's the rhetoric - now what's the REAL mission?" and my own reaction disappoints me as I don't want to be a cynical person but it feels like cynicism is just the proper reaction to the times we're living in.
Thank you for this. Fascinating.
Just listened to this 12/3/2023
VERY INTERESTING !!
Great discussion
THANK YOU for your work 🙏🏽
I'm going to listen to others 👊🏽
You can deny the existence of hell all you want , it doesn't change the fact that it's a reality. In fact , the Lord Jesus Christ spoke far more often about not only the existence of hell , but also that far more people will be in hell , as opposed to heaven. Don't argue with me , argue with Jesus. ‼️✝️👍♥️
You want people to go to hell and you want to die on a cross. You're sick.
What a wonderful podcast, wish I found it earlier, thank you 😊
I guess words just mean whatever you want them to mean.
Are you talking about yourself
Please bear in mind that the Orthodox Church does not accept the idea of a physical hell, but rather a psychological response to our encounter with the love and glory of Christ when we depart this life if we have rejected it in this life. The idea of a final universal redemption.
Fitting that the talk on Hell was in the middle of a heat wave
I'd like to point out the word Hell originated from Hel. Its a common root word for Heli which is a shared source of the words holy and heal both meaning "whole" in a sense of regeneration rather than any concept of torment, punishment or destruction. Because it also is kin to the words hall and hole, hall was also used as a term for a burial mound and and a cave.
This was used to make the connection with the Greek/Roman concepts of the Underworld and the invention of the female figure of Hel as a female being that was have alive and half corpse in the Icelandic Eddas which are not reliable source material for anything of what previous Scandinavian related cultures likely believed or didn't believe as that was not the scope or intent of such "poetry" called Skaldic (meaning to scorn/mock/satirize) as a traditional art form.
In other words Skald Poetry was more or less derived from Old Greek concepts of 'Comedy' that employed social and political satire and various themes of sexual jabs and various innuendos. That was what Snorri Sturluson was going for in a more Icelandic cultural context. That's what so many fail to comprehend.
Cope. When we die we will see if it's true
He'll is an old English word meaning grave, they buried their potatoes in hell.
It’s a Wonderful Life ... Jimmy Stewart
So glad I found this on U tube
Amazing lecture, thank you
I listen to these at work, I love them!!
Interesting. Usually, people at work are working.
@@oldi184 could be working from home perhaps?
@@muthemaori5899
But she said at work.
She did not say at home while working.
@@oldi184 Could be a janitor or something that doesn't require you to have your ears open.
If consciousness continues past death but time and space are not the same or nonexistent, it seems that what you do while alive is very important.
Indeed
Weirdly, you said "Miracle on 34th Street" and I also was thinking of the angel gets his wings thing. Maybe due to context. Didn't notice the error!
If any Christians are watching this just know Biblical Unitarians have been saying this for years and have acknowledged the necessity of placing the Bible in it's historical context as critical to understanding it.
He covered Hell, Gehenna in the New Testament, most likely a place of fiery destruction potentially also painful. But wait till you learn you don't go to heaven (since death is sleep) and rather that the gospel message of Jesus the entire time was about a promise of life in a restored paradised earth while occupying a position of power over the nations for their benefit.
Regarldess of whether one thinks this is fiction or not that is much more exciting than the jargon taught at most churches and it's
far more accurate towards and reflective of the New Testament.
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit *the earth* "
( there was a radio drama in which Soviet scientists are out in Siberia, drilling deep into the Earth's crust
the drill-string breaks into a void
pulling it out, they hear the echoing
Screams of The Damned ~~~ )
That reminds me of a 1950s British drama called 'Quatermass and the Pit' where there is drilling at a site called Hob's Lane.
It's the screams of the audience over a stupid plot.
If the drill struck a vacuum there would be implosion as the outer air met empty space; or else the flames of hellfire would destroy the driller and his drill. But vacuum is not Void. Void is utter emptiness, Vacuum is contained.
I was surprised that the allegorical perspective was not covered more, I've understood it that way since I was little. I've heard that Gandhi felt that reincarnation (and the bagavad gita) should be understood as an allegory. By allegory I mean that these things happen inside us, that Hell/heaven can be our present reality when in sin or righteous. We can pull this interpretation from passages like those in Proverbs that say "true righteous is one's life, and the persute of evil is death".
I was also surprised that Virgil and Homer were not mentioned along side Milton and Dante. That quote from Milton, of Satan in Hell, is a reversal of a passage in Homer's Odyssey, where Achilles says "it is better to be a slave among the living than a king of the dead" (speaking as a dead Spector).
Many scholarly individuals I know feel Plato, Dante, and the rest should also be understood Allegorically.
Does this view of hell diminish the threat of God's judgment?
Does this teaching soften the urgency of repentance?
Is this offering the sinner any hope of salvation beyond this life?
Modern views of hell won't survive the test of biblical fidelity. They'll allow the sinner to feel more comfortable and complacent by defanging God, making Him appear less severe.
Challenges to the doctrine of hell start out by questioning what the Bible clearly says, but they don't end there. Wayne Grudem, recognizing the trend to make hell appear more bearable, noticed a tragic pattern:
The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment…tends to be one of the first doctrines given up by people who are moving away from a commitment to the Bible as absolutely truthful […]. Among liberal theologians who do not accept the absolute truthfulness of the Bible, there is probably no one today who believes in the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment. (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology)
Two of the more prominent campaigns against hell are attacks against its eternality and severity.
Will hell really be that bad?
Whenever Jesus described hell, He was never flippant or dismissive. He used vivid, terrifying terms to describe the final destination of sinners, shocking and scaring His audiences with frighteningly graphic metaphors.
Hell is a place so bad that you should be willing to cut off sensitive, irreplaceable parts of your body to avoid it (Matthew 5:29-30); even martyrdom would be worth avoiding the torment of hell (Matthew 10:28). He always presented hell as a horrific place of intolerable suffering.
His descriptions are consistent with other biblical writers. Daniel referred to hell as a place of shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). Paul called it a place of endless destruction and punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10). Jude called hell a place of eternal fire and darkness (Jude 7). The Apostle John described hell as a place where sinners suffer everlasting torment, with no rest day or night (Revelation 14:9-11).
Taken together, all those descriptions of hell communicate pain, fear, loss, anger, separation, and hopelessness. It's utter agony, eternal torment.
Agony and Torment!
The New Testament describes hell as a place of unimaginable torment. Biblical writers help us picture scenes of unspeakable horror, and most of the time they’re merely quoting what Jesus said about hell:
Weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12)
Spiritual and bodily destruction (Matthew 10:28)
Fiery furnaces (Matthew 13:42, 50)
Outer darkness (Matthew 22:13)
Unquenchable fires (Mark 9:48-49)
Endless torments (Luke 16:23-24)
John Calvin, commenting on those descriptions, wrote, "By such expressions, the Holy Spirit certainly intended to confound all our senses with dread." Calvin understood the Bible's appeal to our senses. When you read about hell in Scripture, you can almost hear the agonizing wails, smell the smoke and burning sulfur, see the flames from the lake of fire, and feel the seething anger of the wicked as they gnash their teeth at the Righteous Judge.
Jesus used pictures and metaphors to help us understand the horror of hell. Darkness represents loneliness, insecurity, the sense of being lost and disoriented; fire represents the excruciating pain of burning; and a lake of fire represents the sense of drowning, suffocating, taking the burning sulfur internally. These vivid pictures of hell's environment should provoke a reasonable sense of fear in a normal, thinking person. No one can come away with the idea that hell is a tolerable place to spend eternity.
Abandonment!
While it's true that hell is a place of untold physical pain and suffering (fire, scorching, being cut to pieces), I think we often overlook the mental agony of being completely forsaken-abandoned for all eternity. After all, the most chilling cry from our Lord as He suffered God's wrath on the cross stemmed not from physical pain, but from being forsaken by the Father. Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46).
The significance of God forsaking the Son in relation to hell: "This is a reminder to all sinners that while hell is the full fury of God's personal punishment presence, He will never be there to comfort. He will never be there to show sympathy. He will never bring relief. […] it is both the punishment of God and the absence of comfort. […] That's hell-punishment without relief ("The King Crucified: Consummation at Calvary"). As the Puritan Thomas Vincent put it, "Not only will the unbeliever be in hell, but hell will be in him too."
Imprisonment!
The New Testament frequently presents hell as a prison-a place of eternal confinement (Matthew 22:13; Jude 13; 2 Peter 2:9). It's impossible to understand first-century prison conditions by looking at American prisons today where accommodations include cable television, three square meals, educational opportunities, outdoor exercise, and toilet/shower facilities. In many of the world's jails throughout history, jailors didn't just treat prisoners like criminals, but rather as sub-humans, as animals.
But even the worst of earthly prison conditions serve as weak analogies to the eternal dungeon of God's hell. God will offer nothing to comfort or relieve his agony-ever. In hell, sinners will forever be hopeless, helpless, and powerless. God casts them into hell for one reason-punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
Look at the Cross!
If you want an inside glimpse of the agonies of hell, look at the Savior in Gethsemane as He anticipated the cross. See the bloody drops of sweat falling from his body as He faced the reality of absorbing His Father's wrath.
Scripture is abundantly clear about the doctrine of hell. Nothing good can come from advocating a view of hell that makes it out to be anything less than a hopeless, agonizing, eternal separation from the good and gracious presence of God.
If you reject, diminish, or neglect the doctrine of hell, you undermine the gravity of our sin in contrast to the holiness of God. But armed with accurate teaching on hell, you help the sinner understand why he must flee from the wrath of God to the mercy of Jesus Christ.
@@johnstewart4350 Thank you for responding to a comment from a year ago, and the only person to respond in all that time. So, I'm wondering, do you think someone can be a follower and believer in Jesus Christ without believing in an afterlife? Can a person invite Jesus into their heart, and commit to being a living sacrifice :: and yet if they do not believe in an afterlife :: Do you think that person is still a Christian, under Grace?
Maybe you think it is a simple or "weak" Christianity, with errors, or do you think it fails to be Christianity at all?
@@MatthewKiehl
Excellent comments ! I never knew Milton had 'played upon' Homer in that most famous of quotes - how did I miss that in English class !
It really seems to me that Western Christianity has been infused with a 'history' of Dante and Milton as if they "were" the Bible !
Who knows what the ‘ beliefs’ really were among the peoples who could not read the Bible or even ‘hear the Bible’ in their own language, but were ‘filtered’ through the ‘views’ of ….. ( let us guess who... ).
Even today if u own a Bible , major problems to understanding exist in the translations because language changes and exists in a context of meaning that would be clear without stating at the time it was spoken.
Example : When Jesus spoke of the “ Gates of Hades “ was He standing before the entrance to Jerusalem ? Yet He was in Galilee and around the corner was the ‘ literal complex of temples to the actual entrance to Hades ‘ ! ( check the historical facts about this ,,,,) How ‘allegorical’ was this to those who came on a pilgrimage in contemplation of those they had known who had 'gone to' Hades ?
( To add to this quandary, was it equal to/ same as Sheol of the Jews ? where is contemporary ‘commentary’ on the difference between Hades and Sheol in the time of Jesus ? ….)
ALL that we have is ’story ( true LOGOS )’ - again, ‘word problems’ anyone !
Jesus was speaking “ figuratively “ to the disciples even at the Last Supper …..
The Holy Spirit will reveal to each what they are able to understand in their Spirit.
Seriously, it’s just too much/difficult to explain - each of us has a unique personal experience
as a “ child of God ” ( is this an allegory or The Truth ! !! ).
enough - - ps what happened to the reply from John Stewart ? As I was writing this reply a ‘moving circle appeared’ above and then your last reply began appearing over and over and over again !
@@termikesmike Thank you for your thoughts - and for being another individual to take interest in my comment after it sitting there for a year! Perhaps many pilgrims will pass by.
I do not know exactly what has happened to John Stewart's comment. I'm able to view it by looking at my notifications, but if I look at the thread it seems to be gone. I hope I didn't frighten him away. I have screen shots of his comment, as I may ponder his thoughts a bit more. Any serious rebuke should be considered (as any student of Solomon or Socrates would say).
The thrust of J.S's comment was to consider the consequences of such a teaching - on our views of God, the seriousness of our situation and our sin, and Hope. And to consider specific verses. (To oversimplify his comment).
Should I try to transcribe it or build out a commentary on it? What would be helpful to you?
@@MatthewKiehl
In regard to John Stewart's missing comment : I’m simply wondering what’s happening to a number of missing replies -
In response to your OP - I’m reminded now of Shakespeare -
‘All the world’s a stage .’
And where are we in this production - as actors or audience or stage hands or ...
Truly refreshing!!
Also - speaking for my childhood church and not my current religious beliefs - I was raised evangelical, some very specific and weird interpretations. But they approached prophecy as being cyclical, as in, it was originally prophesying an ancient political event with Babylon or whatever, AND it applies to the modern day, AND it applies to the future. I don't remember the reasoning - probably like, this is man's evil nature doing the same thing over and over - but that would have been my counterargument as a kid if I was told these were misreadings. I believe the understanding of snake=Satan=Lucifer etc weren't supposed to be straightforward, but more like a mystical understanding that eventually rolled into canonical belief.
Edit - in terms of the heaven/hell stuff around the time of Jesus, I would argue that the canonized Talmud does talk about the world to come a lot, even if it isn't part of most modern Judaism in a literal interpretation.
Your right it wasnt literatly a snake that told them. Westerners got many thinga wrong and us Africans and Asians know this. It was just the human beings behaviour that made Adam & eve eat the apple.
Actually, the Talmud is relied upon by most modern Jews... the modern Jews and Christians are the equivalent of the Pharisees and Sadducees so any arguments against Judaism and Christianity are not substantiated by proper translations of the bible.
Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) is the fire pit that is called hell, Hel is a Norse goddess.
CS Lewis wrote a book called the Great Divorce. I am not going to do it justice, but I will try to sum it up. In it all were taken to Heaven. Those who could not stand to be there, left. For them Hell was what they created for themselves and by turning fully away from God and rejecting His love was the only way to get there. But it is very tempting and an easy way out.
Those who "went to Heaven" were those who stuck with it and got used to being there. It wasn't easy to give up desires. And it was as if their entire lives were lived in Heaven.
I believe that all fire references to fire in Holy writings refer to the Holy Spirit. When we encounter it we will either embrace it as a loving and nurturing pruning force or we will rebell and fight and burn up in our own sin and fleshly desires, unable to escape them. In that way it will be very personal and unique to each of us.
We all go through the fire, as it is an analogy for our life. The trials and difficulties we face as we live our daily lives.
I know that life can be heaven and hell. I have felt hell when I sinned. :/
I can only see hell in a figurative sense. It's a state of mind that we go through now in this life as a result of bad decision making and evil choices. I do believe in God and I do believe in Jesus Christ and I don't believe that we would be burning in the lake of fire for all eternity. That is metaphorical
Just for competeness and fun: hells need not be hot. And hot places need not be evil. Here in Finland we have a saying: ''cold like Russian Hell'. Welcome to enjoy a nice Finnish sauna!
I want to live in a highly secular Nordic country.
Hell was invented by the Roman Catholic church to control the flock.
Is that why truly evil people get away with whatever they choose ? Because they don’t believe they will ever be punished?
Sheol/hell is the grave. I do not believe in "eternal" torment, but I do believe in eternal death.
I also do not think much about living forever. It does not really appeal to me, but I choose to follow best I know how what Yahova wants us to do, to the way He says we are to live....in the here and now. If we only obey in order to avoid punishment and to live forever (receive a reward), then we are not obeying out of love, honor, respect to Yahova.
I hate the idea of eternal life. I believe that living the way Christ taught (well most things) is simply the best way to live in harmony with other people. The way I see Evangelical Christianity today is something based on fear and division. There really is no punishment for sin, other than the negative consequences and the hell it creates on earth. The sin of greed leads to hell for people who suffer in poverty all their lives. Sin is behaving in a way that causes harm to others. It isn't based on some divine moral code. Adultary is bad because it leads to broken relationships and family trauma and sometimes worse. God didn't create a list of arbitary laws that folk obey to please him. Jesus explained that the law was based on love for one another. As far as I can see churches are some of the most sinful places in society today. So yeah, my faith is not based on reward or fear of divine wrath, it's based on living in a way that best serves humanity.
Hi John I'm really enjoying the lectures so far thanks for the level headed views you provide. I had all but given up on church as I'm a seeker. I actually thought of coming out to a service one day. To get to the point though I thought I would recomend a great read on the afler life. It's called immortality and the unseen world. It's by W.O.E Oesterley. He's put together a good summary of the after life as its mentioned through out the Bible and other near eastern texts. I hope you will give it a read I think you will really enjoy it and hope to see you at church soon.
Thank you so much for your feedback, we’re really glad to have you a part of the community!
Am I correct in saying that some people think that Joel was written before Genesis or is one of the first book that was written or is that just a rumor
And also Mount Zaphon is part of the imagery of the Baal cycle in siro-palestine mythology
In the end of a situation or problem or life or idea God has the last word and the best decision...that's why never make plans cause God knows all that will be done in the end.
It's correct logic. But it is also applied to the notion of "prayer" and thus the bible once again logic-busts and contradicts itself.
Ever since getting into the wonderful work of Immanuel Velikovsky and opening my mind to the possibility of Antediluvian Catastrophism and the Electric Universe model, The passage of Isaiah 14 sounds more and more like a planet/comet changing orientation in the sky, perhaps Venus or even a planet where the asteroid belt now resides, "Lucifer" the morning star? Or the Venus, the planet usurper?
My favorite gospel is the gospel of the Badass Baby Jesus! (I haven't read it, but from what I've heard about it, I just know I'd love it! Just as I loved the 'Baby Superman' comics when I was a child...)
Those who are dead do not praise the LORD, nor do those who go into the silence [of the grave].
Psalms 115:17
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.
There is defintely no Lord. There was never a person named Jesus Christ. Humans did not have surnames and no man may be born of no father (Virgin Mary?) Jesus is a theonym like Mary and Abraham and Noah and all his kin, They were not real people. A gospel is a God Spell and the bible is a book of dark magic, modeled after the Egyptian Book of the Dead. No 10 Commandments either. sorry. Christianity is all Brainwashing
As a pessimist I love ecclesiastes!
Just as I run out of Bart Ehrman's lectures, I find Centre Place! Maybe it's the hand of the divine? Great work!
Or maybe the hand of the devil 😁
@@hocuspocus123 TRUE
The Divine Algorithm! 🙏🏼🙏🏼
There is no such thing as God. The point of creation is a trinity. There can be no single creator.
@@je-freenorman7787 /shrugs i dont understand the nature of reality, i just try to enjoy it
Brilliant essay.💯
One of the best lectures yet, nice John that is called John the Chart-maker.
You failed to mention that the word 'hell' in the NT has different meanings, and doesn't mean the same place, i.e., hades, gahana, tartarus.
Ask Hollywood if it burns in hell? Timbre !
I remember as a kid, my brothers and I attended catechism. the nuns wore long habits. I clearly recall the projections related to the class. But the picture that stuck to my mind. Was one that depicted people burning in Hell. Needless to say, that would scare the Hell outta any kid. But now as a adult, I ponder as to why a merciful and loving God. Would condemn his child to burn in the fires of hell forever. Especially for the relatively short life span here on earth.
I don’t know why people care about air conditioner noise. Your audio was good even with it on.
All major religions describe an afterlife where people may experience suffering.
Countless people have had experiences and reported visions, dreams, etc in such a world.
Alcoholics, druggers, violent guys may have experiences of the lower worlds while still alive.
Very well done! Extremely educational! It's called; "It's a Wonderful life." Explain why the book of "Mark" is the ONLY book that talks about people rising from their graves. All these "zombies" walking around, yet NO other book talks about it. Mark, who NEVER even met Christ. U need to share this stuff with Franklin Graham & R.C. Sproul, who seems to REJOICE in the suffering of others! Ironic how the "stories" keep changing! If Jobe s punished, we are ALL doomed! THANK YOU! I'm not afraid anymore!
It's Matthew 27:52-53.. Just saying.. All BS to me, but if it was true, it kinda makes Jesus's resurrection quite a banal event..
Did the idea of the purging level, purgatory, also emerge during the time of Aquinas / Dante? And since these developments are after the Great Schism, does that mean that eastern Christianity, Orthodoxy, does not share these concepts?
The movie you are talking about is “a wonderful life” great movie
I highly recommend The Book of Enoch. It pertains to the subject "hell" in my opinion. It's "hidden" and interesting.
Yes.
Trash
Hidden is of the occult.
@@glennrobinson7193”Occult” simply and literally means “hidden”…
@@radiumdude True, yes agreed. Interesting that death, the grave, hades has a similar meaning to the word occult i.e.hades which is death, and the grave, means covered, hidden, the unknown.
Kingdom of Heaven within, or hell? If those sound like supernatural places, I suggest a class in metaphor. Heaven and hell is here now. Best to not wait till you die to figure out life. Those silly Abrahamic, evolved theists.
what of David talking about some interaction with the son who died as a conception of afterlife interaction?
Some people think that death is sleeping and one day we will wake up.
Jesus certainly was one of those people (Matthew 9:24)
But after too much alcohol, nobody can wake me.
yeah Dante's Paradiso is boring...
Purgatorio is often overlooked but I liked it best
(the wife as English Lit major read Milton)
To scare the F out of people. In a effort to get them to believe the same as they do . Keeping them scared in hopes keeping them in line with the law of the land. ... That's why hell was created. Hell and brimstone.
Nowadays it's to keep the donations flowing.
I read that Origen taught that ultimately everyone would be saved including The Devil.
But influential though he was that part of his theology was rejected.
I certainly hope you’re right. Can’t we ALL just go home?! I’m tired of this.
As a Christian Universalist I'm super glad I found this channel your lectures are eye opening.
Hell can only be experienced as a living body. After the body dies so does experience.
Body is just a vessel,a avatar to finish your journey. Spirit will never delete.
which came first, the invention of heaven or hell. how man came to make such inventions
Thank you 😊
"The double irony" 🤯 Doink 🤓 only on The Simpsons 🤗
Overall a great lecture 👍. However I do sort of miss a rundown of the major Christian theological views on hell, both east and west. Universalism was mentioned, but you also have semi-universalist positions, views of hell as deprivation and views of hell being the sinners response to Gods closeness. It makes a big difference if the gates of hell are closed from the inside or the outside.
I'm with you if you are talking about Western Pepe versus Byzantine Pope. But getting into the theology is different from a "professional" historical focus. How hell exactly works to "keep people eternally in" makes huge theological/psychological/narrative difference, but not historical difference (or even much logical difference really, given the logic of how heroes saving people is supposed to work without resorting to cronyism or favoritism or voluntarism [would a "Perfect You" allow someone to hurt themselves or commit suicide?], etc.)
I think the video guy is a college-accredited Historian (obviously a skilled historian by his humility, lack of vagueness/interpretation, and disimpassioned details... so hopefully he went to a good school too that was worthy of him if it did not specifically instill it in him and others itself).
Historically, Inferno came from renaissance Latin views of Tartarus "twisted [as in twisted morals or twisting in pain]" within Hades. Hell came from Anglo-Saxon views of Hel's realm, not the Jewish sheol which was "grave" and more like Hades than Tartarus or Hel. I suppose in O.T. or other historical commentary (like Josephus) some Judians or Samaritans might have thought of their "good, well deserving people" to be "resting in sheol" waiting the resurrection of Saints for the war mentioned in Jeremiah or Zacharia or which ever chosen prophet out of the lots that the partisan Royal-aligned (depended on the times also) priests chose to say never got anything wrong and should be included in their TNK amalgamations.
It's a wonderful life
I have to admit, it sounds reasonably convincing.
I can see a connection. observations then oral stories about stars end planets all the way through to myths and legend.
That's is possible considering the time humans have existed.
Thank you, that was very good to listen to.
The movie is " its a wonderful life" with jimmy stewart.
I'm very impressed by the depth and knowledge i find on this channel. Being divinely tasked, I'm sorry I have nothing to donate. My high regard and praise for your work does not do justice to your efforts. Many thanks and blessings. 🙏
Um maybe he should reference the Bible. Hello!
Did the Ebionites have a concept of Hell or a Devil figure?
The Ebionites probably did have a concept of final judgement and hell. The Marcionites didn't.
If I had the option to show every person one video, this one would have to be in my top five list
It’s a wonderful life. Jimmy Stewart
Great overview. You did not mention that in the Torah there is no proper noun ‘Satan’. Instead, it is a description ‘the satan’, which as you mention means ‘the accuser’. Jesus would have seen this character in the same way as Jewish people do now. This character works for god to test the souls of the dead - do they love god for being God, or do they love Him for what He can give them, hence the story of Job.
I bow to the Divine in you. 🙏🏼
@stroncal I guess to some people
Thank you. You just opened the allegory of Job for me.
@@markjalessian I bow to the Divine in you 🙏🏼
He's like a divine cop according to Francesca (forgot her surname hard to pronounce and spell), She's a scholar in OT history and development.
@@muthemaori5899 interesting way of looking at this character & I can see why. 👍🏼
Isn't the new testament term for hell "Hades" - from greek mythology?
Hades, Sheol and Tartarus the Bible translated all as hell which isn't right
It is, but I think it's because a lot of it was written for Greeks and it was the closest concept they had.
Yes, it is
There are most likely quite a few insightful studies of the place-names for the geography of the afterworld. "Paradise",for instance,started as the name of the garden park of Cyrus the Great. It migrated to Greece and became synonymous with"Heaven". I don't know if it's the same place as the Elysian Fields.
Hades and Tartarus are of Greek origin. Tartarus was an even deeper level where the wicked were punished. Christian authors modeled hell after this.
They modeled the evil character of Satan after the Zoroastrian evil deity Angra Mainyu.
Christian ideas of hell and Satan are of Greek and Persian origin.
@2:22, an allegory? That is very generous of you. It feels more like Dante Alighieri's time to dunk on everyone he most disliked as he poetically, and very leisurely travels though the nine circles of Hell.
@1:12:39, yes in the Greek world the afterlife is seen as good. There is the Elysian Fields where the Heroes and "good" people go and there is Tartarus where the bad people go.
When you get there, make sure you think of everything you wrote about it. The irony will BURN in your memory.