A Lost Creation Myth: The Horse, The Dog, and Man
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- How do we trace a ancient myth that has been lost from its homeland? This video shows how we can look at folklore to obtain pieces of myth, to recreate a story that disappeared for thousands of years. This is an creation myth of the Indo-Europeans, where man was made from mud.
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📚 References
Devyatkina, Tatyana 2004. Mordvinian Mythology. Ljubljana: Založba ZRC Publishing.
Diffloth, Gérard 2005. The Contribution of Linguistic Palaeontology to the Homeland of Austro-Asiatic. The Peopling of East Asia. London & New York: Routledge Curzon, pp. 79-82.
Hermanns, Matthias P. 1954. The Indo-Tibetans. Bombay: Fernandes.
Howey, M. Oldfield 1923. The Horse in Magic and Myth. London & Aylesbury: William Ridey & Sons.
Kapp, Dieter B. 1986. A parallel motif in Lepcha and Barela-Bhilala mythology. Asian Folklore Studies, Vol. 45, No. 2, pp. 259-285.
Kerbelyte, Bronislava 2001. The Types of Folk Legends. Saint Petersburg: Evropeiskiy Dom.
Koppers, Wilhelm & Jungblut, Leonard 1976. Bowmen of Mid-India. Wien: Institut für Völkerkunde.
Kriukova, Viktoria Yu. 2005. Zoroastrism. [The Zoroastrinism.] Saint Petersburg: Azbuka-Klassika, Peterburgskoe Vostokovedenie.
Kuzmina, Elena K. 2000. The Eurasian Steppes. The Transition from Early Urbanism to Nomadism. Kurgans, Ritual Sites, and Settlements: Eurasian Bronze and Iron Age. Oxford: Archeopress, pp. 118-125. (BAR International Series 890.)
Osada, Toshiki 2010. A comparative study of Munda creation myth. Paper presented for Radcliffe Exploratory Seminar on Comparative Mythology. October 6-7, 2010. Cambridge: Cambridge University, pp. 1-12.
Osada, Toshiki & Onishi, Masayuki 2010. Language Atlas of South Asia. Kyoto: Research Institute for Humanity and Nature.
Parpola, Asko & Janhunen, Juha 2010. On the Asiatic Wild Asses (Equus hemionus & Equus kiang) and Their Vernacular Names. Na Puti Otkrytia Tsivilizatsii. Saint Petersburg: Aleteia, pp. 423-466.
Peterson, John 2009. Kharia-English Lexicon. Santa Barbara: University of California.
Playfair, Alan 1909. The Garos. London: D. Nutt.
Do you like these type of videos, if so I'll reconstruct more older myths that have been lost to their original regions...
keep bringing them 😍😻
These are so cool I wish they had been covered in school!
YES!!
Yes! And with hints of domestication of animals.
Yes please
I feel like your channel is so very important in keeping our human stories alive.
Thank you.
yes, this channel is a hidden gem, gold presentation and a lot of effort put in these videos. Im just glad i found it.Its a matter of time before it explodes on popularity im sure
Really puts are creativity into perspective. And really sets humans in their reality through history. We are just creative apes!
It seems like a common thread is the dog is a good boy no matter the situation.
I agree
My Filipina wife is Higaonon. The Higaonon tribe is one of the seven Lumad (Native) tribes in Bukidnon province of Northern Mindanao Philippines. The Bukidnon creation myth says that the Creator, Diwata Magbabaya, made seven figures from clay. The clay was from the second Diwata involved in the creation. As well, this Diwata had ten heads that always drooled saliva, which was used to work the clay. There was a third Diwata as well, who had wings and acted as an adjudicator when the other two disagreed. The story goes that Magbabaya asked the other Diwata not to touch the seven figures, while he went away for a while. Of course, the second Diwata couldn't resist, and brought the other figures to life, but Magbabaya returned before the last figure was brought to life. The last figure was given life by Magbabaya himself, which was of course man. The others became animals and plants. I have a feeling that the story may have Hindu influences, as the trio involved in creation are very much like the Hindu trinity of Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu. For a long time there was a strong Rajanate of Butuan, just to the northeast of Bukidnon. No horses or dogs in that story, but there is saliva.
Interesting
I'm a simple fella, I see mythology involving dog, I like.
reconstructed myths could really help give us insights into prehistoric societal structures...especially if included (as standard) as part of the greater paleontological toolbox.
Thank you, I pleased they are helping people.
I just want to thank you. i’m going into my senior year of college studying anthro and last summer i found your channel. Once you opened up the world of proto indo european and mythologies to me i was fascinated. Now i’ve read many books and articles and am pursing this as my anthropological focus in the career that i hope to develop. Thanks man!
You're very welcome, I hope all goes well in your studies.
I feel like it could be recording that the domestication of dogs enabled the domestication of horses in some way. At this point, humans began breeding animals for probably the first time, and realized that most things didn't have bellybuttons despite having an umbilical cord when they are born.
😮😮I bet that’s true!
I never thought of it like that. Now I have to examine my cat for a belly button! 🤣
Their belly buttons are just a lot smaller to be hard to see.
Humans have pointless long gestation 🤰 periods. So newborns end up with a bigger umbilical chords, as it needs to be bigger for their final size.
@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana The gestations aren't "pointless". They allow the brain to grow bigger in safety. Are you arguing with evolution?
@@SEKreiver That is pure measuring bias.
More stillbirths and unnoticed foetuses will count as infant deaths 🪦.
That does not actually matter.
Your videos are not only infromative and well researched, the presentation itself is lecture class worthy. Thank you sir.
I am always amazed at the common threads of old myths throughout vast distances of time and space. Your Pleaides video was the one that made me aware of timelines of myth and now with this, you have given me a goldmine.
You see, I am an independent researcher documenting our oral traditions and linguistics dispersion which have not yet been documeted since the time of German Missionaries (Father Hoffman) because most researcher are only interested in linguistics and seems adamant to prove Eastern migration. The field is highly controversial here owing to political atmosphere.
I am from the core Munda branch of the Northern family. You might be correct in deducing the timeline of the language split because our own oral timer myths records these split, though most are not well documented. By timer myth, I mean literally. We remember in our stories, the split of long distant Korkus and Cheros as lost ones on the Gangetic plain (aptly named Huang - Separated banks), the Äsur Mundas near present day Benaras and the separation of Northern branch into sub branches-Munda, Santal and Ho at Rajmahal Hills, before entering the Chotanagpur plateau. The Southern branches are most interesting because they are "those who left" because they refused a new code of social organization with the advent of farming.
You were pondering on the pathway of transmission so I might add here a little tidbit as well. Although, this will be highly controversial because present day scholars have different model of Munda Ethnogenesis (by largely neglecting our own myths).
The setting of the Genesis scene, even this story of flying horse, dogs and man of mud, is West of our present day occupancy. This is controversial for both Aryan theorists and Munda scholars, because Munda languages are considered as a remnant from east. Here's the rub, the commonality with other Austroasiatic languages are mostly lexical (that too mostly number and agriculture), the underlying grammatical substrate (including hunter gatherer terminology) is still an unknown and I suspect that it is a remnant of maternal ancestry. I have not yet seen any study regarding the matrilineal genetics (mtDNA). Most studies only pertain to paternal Y-DNA distributions. And we have oral traditions for that too.
The point is, the genesis of man is not a single myth. There are three distinct stages before the closing of primordial time. The horse, dog and mud man is the second half of first stage). In fact, there are two versions - 1. Intact 2. Aryan influenced.
Intact one has Supreme Deity Singbonga creating man as mud figurines and letting them age near the divine lake inside the primordial garden. The haughty king of flying horses arrive and trashes those figurines. This happens almost 6 times. The seventh time, Singbonga creates two predecessors to modern dogs (they are explicitly called Hyenas) "Cãúra" [Biter] and Bãúra [Howler] to guard. They snatch the king horse and Singbonga punishes his kind as follows - " Your wings will be cut off and you shall be bridled. Your hoofs will be laden with Iron so you may never fly again. Man will place saddle upon your back and you will submit to him as a beast of burden". Thus, new beings Sàdóm (Horse) came into existence. The primordial dogs were rewarded with being "good guards with vigilence, so your kind will watch the man and he will provide you with food".
Aryan influenced version introduce 12 Deo (Indo-European Devas) and 13 Asur (Indo-European Asuras) as the instigator of destruction of mud figurines. This is quite clear because linguistically, Äsúr or aspirated Hàsúr (Sesquisyllabic À'súr) is "West". But most researchers conflate the two as one and the same.
I had suspected that the oral tradition was one of the oldest remnant of pre traditions. Thank you for more information.
The 1st stage is the raising of earth mound in the primeval sea by a diving earthworm. A divine lake is bound and a divine garden is planted. Then the story of flying horse occurs. Then, there is introduction of death (via diseases and suffering). The world ends in a rain of fire. Two kids survive by the effort of the primeval spirit of marshlands (Nägé) who hide them in two Golden eggs. The eggs are left on a primeval field of reeds between the nests of ancient Herons by a couple of Golden Herons. The kids emerge from their golden eggs and are nursed by natural herons (thus, many clans call themselves as "children of birds" and largest totems are bird related). These kids are primordial ancestors of our mankind. Mankind proliferate. Third stage and closing of primordial time approaches; the group of Westerners , Hàsúrs are punished for ruining creation by their "Iron smelting". They die and become the spirits presiding over natural creations so that nature's office may function properly. Singbonga disappears from the eyes of Man and primordial time is closed. Man now can only propitiate and offer oblation.
I've never heard these stories about aggressive winged (possibly two legged) horses!
Great stuff 👍
Not only did I learn about a new creation myth, I also learned that I have a horizontal belly button.
I love how you take us step by step through the reconstruction process. You have me wondering about the Wild Hunt & potential connections now💗
I believe he actually has a video on this already.
Yeah, he calls it the cosmic hunt
@@laurajaneluvsbeauty9596 The horses & dogs make me wonder if it’s influenced by the hunt
@@kariannecrysler640 probably partially, at least. I wonder how close Pegasus is to the rest of the constellations from the hunt? Also in one of the caves (lassceux cave or cheuvet cave) the hunt painted on the wall may also actually be the first astrological calendar. Maybe the story is told that way to make sure it’s remembered
@@kariannecrysler640 I’m just digging into a book called “hamlets mill” and it’s about the decimation of knowledge thru myths by ancient humans. Fascinating stuff
Very interesting. Thank you! Random thoughts... Free running horse is domesticated, losing its wings. Horse becomes a high tech weapon, an evil for those without. The furless dog is domesticated, given a warm place by the fire, like having fur. Dog becomes a defensive weapon against invading horse cultures. Makes sense that the steppe is in the middle of it all.
The stories document culture clashes. Cows and horses have different digestive systems. Different vegetation, different climate and then changes can favor one. A culture may have many more of one than the other.
The sound ma is the Chinese word for horse and also mother. The character for horse is a component of the character for mother. It's fascinating, how much is interrelated.
very interesting insight
36:00
Paleolithic hunters: "Meat derives by other meat. Eating the meat of animal we sustain our own bodies. So the first man was made with Yemo's flesh".
Neolithic farmers: "Meat derives by earth. Growing grain and vegetables we sustain our own bodies. So the first man was made with clay".
Brilliant! I've never look to creation myths in this way, by it made sense.
Yes, exactly!
A good video, which I found very interesting. The bull being good and the horse being evil is very interesting, especially with the first creation myth about Manu, his Twin Yemo, and their great cow.
I love comparative mythology! Great video - as are all on this channel!
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing your extensive research
I bloody love this. Falling asleep to you with my cat
Now we need a video on the relation between dogs and afterlife.
Thank you, I so look forward to every video !
Another fascinating video; thank you for the knowledge and entertainment.!
So, I'm guilty of not watching many if your videos for the past year or so... I have a bunch of channels I enjoy, on a wide range of topics and it's hard to get to all of them...
But, I was just looking at the views of your popular videos... which are amazing!! But why, by all the gods, do most of those people NOT subscribe to your channel?!? 🤯 You have hundreds of thousands of views on several videos... but not even 200k subscribers?! It boggles the mind.
You are very well spoken, speak slowly (which is more than I can say about many other channels) so we don't get lost in your thicker dialect, obviously very knowledgeable about your subject, and an awesome storyteller!!
I do need to catch up on a bunch of your videos... but know that we appreciate you and totally enjoy your research and delving into these myths, and putting all the different parts together for us in a very understandable, enjoyable manner. Also, leaving us with a lot to ponder on our own when we are done watching your videos. 🩵
Thank you so much for your kind words, they are v/ery much appreciated.
Please stay safe and well to you also. ❤ your stories are a gift.
Thank you for your kind words.
Thanks for all your research and your insights.
Thank you for your support, it really does help.
Unbelievable quality content and spotless presentation as always. This is a masterclass on how to make excellent videos without having to resort on visual pyrotechnics. Thank you so much.
Thank you for your kind words.
Ever since I started studying PIE mythology, I've been struck by how stories can splinter, transform and recombine. You can sorta/kinda see a shadow of the 'original' tale, but can't quite grasp it.
Sri Lankans brought Hinduism to SE Asia, so that's a possibility.
The Welsh Triads refer to a "War of the Trees".
The legend COULD have been brought to North Africa by the I-E Vandals and Alans (former steppe dwellers), which was right before the Muslim Conquest.
The Athabaskans arrived North America from Siberia less than 2000yrs ago, so they could've brought some version of the myth.
Just the act of resurrecting this is moving. Thank you.
so glad your Chanel is succeeding mate, excellent story teller
Thank you.
Very interesting topic! 😊❤ definitely looking forward to delving into this brother! 🙏 Hail!
I could be a million miles off but this video has put an image in my mind of terrified bands of people with horses stampeding into them, rearing up on their hind legs, in an almost bird-like posture, like they could grown wings and fly. As they trample the humans that have been knocked down, lots of those people will be left with hoof-shaped holes and scars, which would primarily be on the torso as it's presumably easier to move an arm or leg out of the way to avoid a horses foot landing on it than it is to move the torso fully out of the way when you're flat on the ground. Could real-life events like this end up blended with a creation myth? I guess it's possible that one of these events might result in the deaths of a number of members of a small multi-generational family group, and for the scarred survivors, who maybe have to join or start a new family group, it could merge with a foundational concept in a similar way that flood and earthquakes might become part of a foundation myth (imho)? Maybe?
Yes, myths were influenced by what people saw, and so this is a potential souirce for such a motif.
I put your videos on when I'm trying to sleep I get so interested I cant
Not sure where I’ve been, but it’s lovely to be back and having tea while listening to you 🪷
Please can you do a video telling tales of our ancestors interacting with ice age mega fauna. There must be loads, or at least some, myths, legends, stories, etc from somewhere on the globe especially given the amount of time we co-existed?
This was fascinating! I was looking at seals from the Middle East around the 2000 BC mark of winged horses just yesterday. The two legged horse monster was amazing too. The gorilla horse is 15 million years ago. The earliest modern human is at 300,000 years ago. But the chalicotherium (gorilla horse) did live on the Eurasian plains.
I live on an Anishinabe reservation in northern Minnesota & their story about how man's best friend was created is quite different. Here, satan never existed. Evil people do, but no satan. The creator is The Creator. No angels, either.
Oh fascinating. I would love a comparison and contrast of IndoEuropean pastoralists and Near Eastern farmers and their religion, because there seems to be so many overlaps. Which makes sense, them being geographically close to each other, but I’d love to hear where they differ and why.
Madd love for this channel. ❤
Fascinating ❤❤❤❤❤thanks
I think the cosmic egg story came from the Mundas into India.
What about the earth diver? In Vedic lore, a boar lifts the earth from the water. Surely, this story has parallels elsewhere.
@@abhiramn474 iirc in Japanese myth, a bird beats earth out of water with its tail
I love these stories about the evolution of stories.
Modern human and domestic dog haplotypes simultaneous 😅
Absolutely love your work. Long may you continue. ❤
Thank you so much.
I am really interested in the way these stories change as they spread across the world. A modern example can be found in urban legends that change according to context. These stories tend to spread by word of mouth.
It would seem that our 'history' tales and religious habits are dictated by a commonly accepted formula! A lot to consider here.
A bull could be sacrificed as a sin offering in the Old Testament tradition. In Classical Greek culture, a Hekatomb was a major sacrifice of a 100 bulls to a pantheon god. The motif shows up in the Illiad and the Odyessey. And then there is practice of Papal decrees being described as a "bull".
And bulls occur in Mesopotamian myth.
Yes, bulls were also sacrificed in Indo-European culture, this doesn't mean they were not good, in fact it was better to sacrifice a good animal.
Wonderful channel
Thank you.
Great work
Thank you.
This is a monumental video! Love it!
I have enjoyed it with my cup of coffee!
Thank you!! :)
Thank you for your kind words.
@@Crecganford Thank you for keeping the bar so high so consistently!
I can only imagine how much hard work and sleepless nights are behind these videos!
HaHA! I would gladly give up my belly button to have winged horses! And by all means, let the dog keep its fur!:)❤🎉
26:07 God tried to make the monster come alive by giving it the ol' HAWK TUAH, spit on that thang.
I was curious about the humans being made from clay or mud. I was wondering if it has its roots in the earth diver story, but in this group of stories nothing else seems made of mud. Seems like a major point of all these stories is that being made from mud was related to an explanation of why people are physically weak compared to other animals. Humans knowing they have to use the strengths of both dogs and horses to survive.
I do believe the man of clay is a very old motif, although I have never personaly studied its origins, but perhaps I will now.
Another great video, thanks. Also if you ever say "...and if you would like a video on this subject let me know..." Just assume the answer is a resounding yes please.
There is a Spongebob episode called Squidward the unfriendly ghost that deals with the same motif.
So. Interesting, thank you! I wonder if it's possible to find any links to the paleolithic cave paintings since so many feature horses and bison. There are so many theories but without surviving oral traditions from that far back I'm not sure if it's traceable. Love to explore the echoes of the ancient minds.
This myth seems weirdly familiar to me even as a European. Can't find anything about this topic online other than from you. Cheers
This whole discussion is just reminding me of some research I did in years past on North American creation mythos. It's really haunting me right now! I'm recognizing entirely too many similarities and I am not qualified for this. lol
There's a hundred little pieces of this in my head rn. So, this might be way too unsubstantiated to even be useable, but I'll throw something at the wall here in case it helps someone else's research? ✌ Apologies for the Pepe Silvia ramble, there's an overarching point!
Coyote is the topic du joir, but he has very reasonable dog connections I'll get to in a moment.
Summary: Coyote is frequently a Creation deity. Also directly involved in the creation + of man myths (sarcasm)for like half the continent of North America, his myths are that widespread. (Even where he isn't a creator deity, Mythic Tradition Coyote tends to be involved in the ordering the cosmos in other ways. Like whimsically casting the stars into the sky on top of another's tedious attempt = constellations. (Source: Diné myth)
(Some NoAm tribes of a large language family, details escape me at the moment) have a myth where a council of Animal Spirits, often called together by Coyote, were debating the creation of man. They were debating what qualities to give the Human. Story doesn't always involve clay but I'm distinctly remembering one version that did. Some of those included Coyote or someone else defacing the Council's various concept figures of what human should be. I remember a version where Bear (under another epithet) got SO angry about it, possibly may have defaced Coyote's? Anyway, Coyote's often wins, and so humans gained his canid "wit and cunning."
(Might probably the one the Diné "Navajo" people descended from) I'm so sorry can't remember the name, but (a whole language family prior to its current split of tribal languages) had the proto word that they eventually used for Coyote originally be a catch-all term for "predatorial animal." From examples via its linguistic lineages, it appeared to range from foxes coyotes wolves AND dogs.
(Note: Genetically coyotes are a natural admixture with wolves, and dogs when they were brought to the continent, and esp now with urban dogs. For those not aware, its genetically confirmed that there were Native American dog breeds prior to European colonization.)
I remember that this NoAm language family traced to areas in what is now NW Canada...
(Note for other researchers since this is a common issue with the NoAm Animal People spirit figures in their mythologies: Even formal sources won't always refer to a tribal animal-species spirit as clearly "a Bear.")
A common figure in the Selecting The Attributes Of Man myths in NoAm is the Bear. Often an ancestral figure across the continent. Like the Cherokee myth of Bears being a related cousin tribe to theirs, shapeshifted so that they could more closely live in nature. (Further reading: The Cahokia Civilization's voluntary disbandment.)
My researching had a focus on bears and canids because there were some strong links between Siberian descended cultures with the same. For example, Hokkaido/Kuril's Ainu, who have both Bear and White Wolf ancestral figures.
(Note for funsies: Ainu populations ig didn't seem to distinguish between wolves or dogs either, and have famously over 40 documented words for dog/wolf. A historical source relates that they deliberately interbred them.)
(Setting up a point) The P.I.E. project has offered us evidence that some of these forgotten mythologies crossed into Turtle Island/North America, like the Earth Diver. Then there's the history of the Inuit showing that their ancestral people had ranged well across the span of north Canada into Greenland, and the eerie linguistic ties to their language family and language similarities across The Kelp Highway/Bering Strait to multiple other areas along the coast on the other side of the Pacific Ocean, including the Ainu.
(Setting up a point) There's also several distinct connections between Horses and Dogs in North American mythologies, and small linguistic ties. Like in one instance of the word for horse being "big dog", because dogs were used to pull the wheel-less cart-sleds of one's possessions when migrating seasonally, so horses became called "big dogs."
(Note: In my personal experience, some tribal traditional-horsekeepers will scoff that horses only came to America with the Spaniards, that they had mythos of them far prior, and there are dozens of very old, Native horse -only mutations that exist, but science hasn't picked up on the topic yet, so who knows. The horse-ancestor species did originally evolve in the forests and then plains of prehistoric North America though! lol)
The NoAm Horse&Dog mythos can tie into the Clay Man myth with, for example, the tribes of the Californian area having the story of "Coyote Went To Get Basketry Material." Summary: Coyote's grandson gets wizard-poofed into what sounds like a new animal, because the strange creature is suggested to be like a sheep in the story, and it turns out to be the origin myth of the Horse. In that region, we also have an instance of the Earth Diver myth, as well as instances of Coyote creating the world (and man) from earthen material, sometimes alongside the "Earthmaker" deity of that region, who is often his wife, and an animal spirit of a couple dif varieties according to the tribe in question.
These are just some examples of possible connection points off the top of my head... but I'd love to see someone pick up the slack and properly tie something together. lol
So yeah, if anyone in your research group wants to pick up on researching North America more intently, it is entirely possible to make further connections to the Earth Diver and/or ClayMan Dog Horse story out into this continent too. There's plenty of material to comb through!
I always get The Weirdest 10+ minute ads when I watch your videos. Very inconvenient when I’m trying to sleep! youtube algorithm bad
I will see if I can do anything about that.
@@Crecganford I’m p sure the solution is “get youtube premium” or whatever. i’ll still support u on spotify
@@Crecganford I’m pretty sure the solution is that I need to pay for youtube red. :( it’s scary radicalizing ads too
I like this story.
Great. Thanks.
The horses were afraid of being dominated by the men so they smashed the clay figures, and as punishment the creator took their wings to ensure that men would be able to dominate them more easily.
So... the horses were entirely justified in smashing the clay men because they were 100% correct lol
self fulfilling
@@420Travesty how are you typing with those hooves?
Thanks
Love the pictorial geography 😊
Did no one notice the umbilical cord for thousands of years?
Did anyone yell, Atreu...! When they saw the cover picture, or was it just me...?🤔😅
You were the first...
Thanks!
Thank you so much for your support, it is appreciated.
my favorite!
Thank you.
as a farrier i will never forget where my belly button came from as im working on those devils.
I don’t think anyone’s made a video or paper on it, besides one I saw months ago behind a paywall or institution login, but can you do a video over what Proto-Indo-Europeans wore? Whether it’s armor or plain clothing. You could probably work it back similarly to how languages which didn’t live in swamps but had lots of words for them were traced back to Eastern Europe (can’t remember if that was just for Slavic languages or for PIE itself). Like if a culture didn’t wear trousers but had words for them, you could surmise that their ancestors or those they ultimately got their language from would’ve worn trousers.
maaan, it's one of those stories I swear I've heard before.
Am very interested in indo european mythology😊
I would suggest, that the myth is rather Uralic in origin, with the northern variant being the original one, which spread with the Uralic migrations eastward and westward. The Indo-Iranians, who had extensive contact with some of the Uralic people, would have then borrowed the myth. Back then the Aryans were likely a collection of tribes, who spoke the same language and shared much of their culture. As the Aryans migrated south, the various tribes merged and grew apart to become different peoples later on, with the geographically closer ones sharing more developments. This is like, how the Slavs and the Ancient Greeks developed. Some of the Aryan tribes would have borrowed it, whilst other ones would have not. The Samoyedic variant might have been a reborrowing from the Aryans. The Munda variant might have been borrowed from a now lost Aryan tribe, which also migrated into India. The rest could be later dissemination.
Hello, I just found your site .
Hello, I hope mythology interests you.
An explanation for the origin of the belly button seems odd to me. A lot of myths explain the origin of natural phenomena that ancient peoples did not fully understand, but they certainly would have known exactly where belly buttons come from.
I think they found it odd why humans had them but other animals didn't seem to.
Is it possible that horses being seen as evil is due to them being a terrifying weapon of “war” during the Indo-European migrations?
We don’t tend to think of how scary a horse riding warrior is in the modern day, but there’s a reason why city-cops will sometimes ride horses…yes it is because it is quirky…but also it is a great method of crowd control because a horse can and will fight back in a way a cop car won’t.
Otherwise, the main mythological connotation would be that horses were hunted for food. Nobody would see them a “evil”…and it makes the most sense to blame this connotation on people having negative experiences with horses.
From Munda
Regarding the Ojibwe myth, I agree we do have to be careful-but I also think that assuming the similarity must be merely coincidental, is just as wrong as assuming that it is not. Bear with me (no pun intended), while I build the strongest case that I can...
Of course, the PIE myth you present here couldn't have made its way into the Americas. However, it's worth considering the possibility that the myth derives from an even older source (perhaps from the Ancient North Eurasians, which the PIE people and Native Americans share common ancestry with).
I find this highly interesting, considering also the shared motif of guard/guide dogs in the afterlife between the PIEs (*Ḱérberos) and various Native American groups. This isn't shared solely with the Ojibwe, but also groups spanning to even the Cherokee and Aztecs. I know you're familiar also with the ferryman myth that likely shares common origin. Perhaps the afterlife guide dog is somehow connected to the idea that dogs are the guards and companions of mankind in the 'lost myth' you present in this video.
Furthermore, the belief of a deity sculpting man from clay and breathing life into it, is not particular to the near east-it is also present in several indigenous groups of the americas-although, as always, it is possible this has been independently conceptualized. But perhaps it is no coincidence that groups like the K'iche' Mayans do not simply hold one belief or the other, but hold both beliefs together: Of mankind made from clay, and of afterlife guide dogs (as recorded in the Popol Vuh)-thus, this is not simply picking and choosing different aspects of various groups to force a connection.
(Continued in the replies...)
It would be honestly surprising to me if the myth retained the original core theme after those tens of thousands of years. The PIE and Native American versions would be far enough removed that innovation is to be expected. No longer exactly the 'same story', but stories of common origin nonetheless. If true, then this older version of the myth may lack horses altogether (hence the bear filling that role in Ojibwe myth). And only later after the advent of horse domestication did some eurasian populations begin to develop into this new direction. The innovation of the story could be a justification for man's subjugation of the horse and of nature as a whole-and perhaps a lesson that although our flesh has been made weak (due to the horse), our spirit remains strong (due to the god itself breathing its own life force into the clay figure-thus our superiority over nature). Probably a stretch, but perhaps even a warning for us as humans not to undergo a similar process of 'domestication' as both the horse and the dog have.
The Botai culture is an interesting example of domestication. They possess no Yamnaya ancestry, and even slightly predate the Yamnaya-but have a very close genetic proximity to the Tarim mummies and the Eastern Hunter Gatherers, which are direct descendants of the Ancient North Eurasians-the former of which being considered "the best representatives" of the ANE. Sites of Botai settlements possess enormous amounts of domesticated horse and dog bones. These Botai people are speculated to have spoken either an Ugric or Yeniseian language. Wikipedia states "This language could have contributed some loanwords related to horsemanship and pastoralism, such as the word for horse (Yeniseian *ʔɨʔχ-kuʔs "stallion" and Indo-European *H₁ek̂wos "domesticated horse"), towards proto-Indo-European."
Perhaps it is no coincidence that Dené-Yeniseian has been called "the first demonstration of a genealogical link between Old World and New World language families that meets the standards of traditional comparative-historical linguistics."
You're amazing, mate! Brilliant! Looking forward to a comprehensive compendium or a bestiary or etc.
Thank you for your kind words.
❤
as far as i know there aren't any horse myths or even any horse like animals in Australia but they do have a connection with dingoes (native dogs)
are you aware of any dog myths with them.. yes i know i could do my own research
There are at least two different myth types and four motifs with dingos. Check out the mythology database and search for Dingo, that should give you a few pointers.
The outro flute music, can you tell me the name please? It sounds Nepalese, correct me if I'm mistaken
I just use licesnable world musci with a cinematic theme, I'm not sure it is from anywhere particular.
@crecganford
Can you make more videos about native American stories
Yes, I want to, and am slowly reading many stories and books about the culture.
I can't find my pockets
Love your stuff if you have time check out Dr Ammon Hillman! Ancient Greek linguistics expert and he blows your mind and I would love for you to cover some of those stories!
Does Pegasus have anything to do with these myths?
I could not see a direct link, but there are over 150 motifs about flying horses, and so one of them may be linked.
I am surprised that your horse & dog myths are as recent as they are. Dogs have been around humans for perhaps 15,000 years. Even pre-humans were hunting horses for tens of thousands of years. (It's most common meat source for some hominid types.) And modern humans were probably herding horses for long before they were domesticated them for riding & pulling wagons and chariots.
Your remark about the name of the Ibilisi prooving a transmission by the Arabian is objectable: a former name from an original Indian version of the tradition could have been changed at a later stage.
It could be classed as subjective, yes, but I do say probability is the only currency I have to work with.
Okay Buma
So was neptunos equestris an evil god?
The Indo-European gods tend to have human characteristics, and so there may by stories suggesting he was malevolent, he certianly showed jealousy and was vengeful, but also had poistive traits.
😎😎😎😎😎
What kind of dialect/accent does Jon have? Cant seem to place it anywhere specific
He has a Metropolitan/South London/Home Counties with a bit of West Country. I've live in many places.
Are there any myths about winged dogs?
Yes, at least 22 according the mythology database.
@@Crecganford Amazing. Our yearning and searching for understanding this Mystery of Existence is…❤️
This story doesn't work, either for a "dog" person, or a "horse" person. Dogs and horses got adopted at different times, in different places. This does not clarify anything. People want to know if they tamed fire, or if fire tamed them. Find that myth. Give people peace.
Sorry, I shall travel 4,000 years back in time and tell people to create myths about things people want to know about today.
6:25 So, is he actually called Adam in this version of the myth, or is it a designator that was given in translation? Then again, either way, find it interesting that the motif of humans being first crafted of clay is found in a wide variety of Indoeuropean and Indo-Aryan cultures but only a few branches of Semitic culture... Then again, I've already shared with you my heterodox view that the Jewish people were partly of Indo-Aryan and/or Indoeuropean Extraction, and that their religion was less a Semitic religion and more an Indo-Aryan religion with a Semitic coat of paint... Then again I have to also admit the biases, hair splitting, and utter pedantry that goes into this idea. But then who would be if I wasn't a pedantic contrarian who thought Occam's Razor was self-refuting drivel?)
Yes, those influenced by the Abrahamic traditions sometimes used the word Adam.
♪♫♥ - Very Interesting, thank you for sharing this - 𒀭
On 'O Iblis', I would not be too confident that the tale was carried in the first instance after beginning of Islam. There are constant references to Jesus and Saints in the recorded cosmology of the Northern European.
It is am ystery to me why humans would not know exactly what a navel was.Something is missing in these stories where is the glory of birth and women?
I think the point was that animals don't have navals, or not easily seen when compared to humans, and why is that? Just their way of trying to understand the world as a whole.
The horse as the creation of the devil 😂😂 that tracks!
I'm now thinking about how much influence this myth would have had on the interpretation of the ritual of the Ashwamedha Yagna as depicted in certain versions of the Mahabharata. Stop the horse and fight the army or let the horse wander your land and let the owner of the horse take it over as your liege lord. It kind of does make sense in the context of the period if I'm right in thinking that was around the time the indo-aryan peoples were settling down after a nomadic lifestyle previously.
Horses are known to Sumerians: they call them “donkey of the mountain” or "anše. kur. ra", meaning Horse. anše-kur-ra, “ass of the mountain” or “foreign land." The Egyptian god of "foreign land" was associated with the Donkey and the Devil, his name is Seth, the god of Chaos, was also known as Thigh of the Bull's Leg
For the exact time, Nilesh Oak seems to have nailed it; thoroughly documented with his books. The Historic Rama: Indian Civilization at the end of Pleistocene, and When did the Mahabharata War Happen? The Mystery of Arundhati.
Those people sure had creative imaginations. People today seem so dull and unimaginative by comparison. Maybe because most people couldn't read or write and had to use their minds more.
I don't think they imagined it. They just shared their weird dreams and sometimes retold the story until they forgot it came from a dream.
I *always* ♾ find dreams have *inferable, hidden information* 🕵🕵🕵 that is *not directly perceived* 🤐🤐🤐 about *the dream world* 🌍🌍🌍. E.g. Character 👤🪞 motivations ❓, modus/modi operandi 🛣🛣🛣, the validity ✅❌ of a statement 📑 within the dream, etc.
Dreams 💤 are primarily logic 🤔 puzzles 🧩🧩🧩.
Modern dreams are similarly "imaginative" with a good narrative once you solve the hidden information.
The great working is complete. I have achieved Gnosis. Rebuild the myths
Clans
Guilds
I think most myths are dreams people forgot came from dreams.
I *always* ♾ find dreams have *inferable, hidden information* 🕵🕵🕵 that is *not directly perceived* 🤐🤐🤐 about *the dream world* 🌍🌍🌍. E.g. Character 👤🪞 motivations ❓, modus/modi operandi 🛣🛣🛣, the validity ✅❌ of a statement 📑 within the dream, etc.
Dreams 💤 are primarily logic 🤔 puzzles 🧩🧩🧩.
In this story the main points are humans and horses used to be much more powerful, but an unintended event made them less so.
Likely the dog 🐕 part was much more complex, as dogs are weird in many ways, but most of it flew over humans' heads.