.38 Special+P - Fast & Light VS Slow & Heavy - Buffalo Bore TAC-XP VS HEAVY Hard Cast (230 gr!)
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- Testing the .38 Special+P in the Buffalo/Barnes TAC-XP 110 gr solid copper hollow point rated at 1,125 FPS from a 2" barrel VS some 230 gr hard cast flat point rounds loaded by a Patreon member Calamity Jane aka on CZcams 'pecosjane'. I test these in both a 4" and 2" barrel and do a 10% Clear Ballistic test with 1/4" MDF to represent ribs. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...
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Thank you so much for running my rounds through your well thought out gauntlet. I hoped they might tumble in gel, but still fun to see them bang steel at 75 yards. Aw yes, Bowling Pin Matches! it’s been a while but a bunch of Old Fudds with heavy revolver bullets knocking down bowling pins Is (was) my favorite day at the range! Meanwhile, those 110 grain TAC-XP look like an excellent choice for self-defense. Thanks Sam!
Thank you for providing ammo!
What mold did you use? If he mentioned it I missed it. Heavy and slow also means no need for a GC.
@@vincentphelps6325. I buy my cast lead from Montana Bullet Works. They produce excellent quality products, far better than I could cast in the garage. Correct: these 230 grain bullets do not have a gas check. I also buy and load some 180 grain bullets from Montana and those do have a gas check.
First of all, thank you for providing such excellent ammunition for testing! Secondly, appreciate using two barrel lengths in testing these two loads. Have been shooting .38 Special since 1980. It has served me well across these many years. Never thought much of the very heavy for caliber loads. You caused me to think again about that idea. Thank you.
@@vincentphelps6325
Looks like a NOE SC360-232-RF-U5
Good looking boolits. If NOE doesn't have any plans for another run, I just might have Tom a Accurate make me one.
Thanks PecosJane!
Screw the haters, love the 75 yard shots. Great video as always.
Yeah, I agree. the 75 yard shots tell their own story about where the rounds are going.
75 yards with a snubby .38 is cool shit.
Shows why an article I read about loads for bear defense recommended hard cast bullets for deep penetration to the vitals.
Yeah, anything that is flat point that remains flat point is good for penetration. Hard cast, solid copper, even flat point FMJ is pretty good within reason.
Buffalo Bore makes a hard cast load for snubbies in .38. It's wicked to shoot though
@@GunSam Just got home from filming .40 Snub making that known, 20 ounce snub good for woods or change when going into city
And don't forget wadcutters.
The heaviest. 38 Spl load I ever shot was Winchester-Western 190grn lrn I could easily watch the heavy slug travel to the target.Recoil was negligible.
By the way in the parlance of 21st century,you rock. Your tests are valid and very informative. Screw the haters. They know nothing. @GunSam
Thank you for another great test! That Bufalo Bore is what lives in my 3" 357, but that heavy bullet load looks like it might be a fine load for hiking.
Wow, I've never seen a .38 Special round over 200 grains. This was cool to see. 👍
Hi, i too, i see 200grains or less
The 110 grain +P did great, the 230 grain would be a good bear defense round. I'd prefer a bit less bullet weight and a bit more velocity, maybe use a 180-200 grain bullet. My former agency tested various 38 Special bullet weights and concluded the 110 grain +P was ideal for the 6 shot snubbies, and the 125 grain +P was ideal for the standard use 4" barrel for patrol. Loads were tested for penetration and expansion using the FBI standard as a benchmark. They also tested 148 and 158 grain wadcutter and semi-wadcutter but these did not meet the FBI standard, although some detectives wanted the option to carry these.
Was that a lack of penetration with the Wadcutters ?
@@h.r.puffnstuff8705 not sure of the test results but my guess is the lack of expansion resulted in over penetration.
Lighter bullets in shorter barrels is exactly the wrong way to go. Lighter bullets lose more velocity is shorter barrels.
@@jasonshults368 ballistics data does not support your claims. Lighter bullets are faster than heavy bullets.
@@PassivePortfolios that (OP) make more sense. I musta been half asleep when I pinged you.
Filmed June 27th 2024
What id like to see… cuz powder coat is so popular now . I’d like to see soft lead common bullets -semi wads -truncated round nose etc soft lead as wheel weights are harder to get powder coated in gel. How will they expand. I never buy ammo I powder coat and sense I use cheap softer common lead how will they act? Cuz they seem like they’d expand. This has become very common now.
Absolutely! Soft lead or softer lead alloy large meplat buĺlets (full caliber wadcutters are amazing for this) pushed to moderate velocity. Easy to make, devastating on soft tissue, WAY cheaper than the jacketed hollow points.
A texas state trooper told me as a kid that his 38 would drain the mean outa any perp with a couple center hits! 1970z were lead, maybe 158 gr. Semi wad cutter?
In 1972 the 158 gr LSWC-hollow point was invented, essentially the FBI load. He probably meant that.
Well both rounds performed as designed, I'd say. The 110 gr was getting 9x19 +p power. Those heavy lead rounds could well be a great option for folks venturing into the woods who only have one gun (nothing wrong with having only one gun). That level of penetration would do a number on an angry beast.
As always, I am impressed with your skill and your evaluation. Great stuff!
Wow, my kind of episode, I love the classics.❤
"The classics" lol. I assume that means, me and .38 Special and showing how it's the best cartridge out there despite the noise of the crowd saying otherwise.
@@GunSam Spot on 👍
@@GunSamagree
Really enjoy your 38 caliber testing. Because of your channel I have made some changes to daily carry and prefer my S&W 642 38+P most days. Simple, lightweight, and with the many choices of ammo, capable.
I made up some 110gr Hornady XTP and 110gr Speer Gold Dot short barrel rounds with Vihta Vuori 3N37 loaded max out of the VV reloading App. I chronographed them at an average speed of 1230 fps of 20 rounds fired. I want to test them through some water jugs and capture the bullets. These were 38 special out of a Smith and Wesson 686 4 inch barrel
Bullet design is always number 1, a well-designed bullet built for purpose is so important especially for short barrels. Nice to see both of these do well at both lengths. Thanks for your work, Sam, it's appreciated.
Those 230s were pretty cool at 75 yards. Fire. Take a tea break. Read some articles. Then listen for the hit.
Elevator music, check my watch.
Gun Sam awsome. I love your channel. Hard cast is what I shoot very good for hunting. God bless. Keep em comming. From Pennsylvania buddy Jeff 😊
Another great vid. Thanks to the ammo donor.
Love your presentations Sam, thank you!
Another great video, what an awesome carry round for us pocket snubby 38 guys. I carry a 3" Ruger 38 at times too, love the SWCHP 158s in the 3". But these 110s are perfect for a short barrel . The hard cast stuff isn't my cup of tea unless I'm in big bear country
I’m thoroughly amazed by those heavy 230gr loads! They perform about as good, if not better, than Buffalo Bore’s 38 Spl +p 158gr outdoorsman load, which is going almost 1,200 fps… Heavy, solid bullets are the way to go in the woods!
I am thinking that my old S&W model 28 would definitely partner well with the 230 grain pllus P .38 rounds for back country carry. I don't have to deal with brown bears and the blacks would not fair too well with that load. Thanks for what you do.
Thanks for another great Video GS Hope your health is well. Awesome comparison of the lightest and heaviest 38/357 loads. I dont own a 38/357 but have thought a lot about it for years. I just bought my 1st revolver in 44 mag after many years of semis and reloading. Maybe a 38/357 someday too. Pecosjane, Nice Jobs good consistant reloads!
Thanks
I was so focused on the heavy anomaly, that I didn't realize that BB Tac may be a very good inbetween load for .357 2" snubs instead of .357...Recoil wise wonder how that is to a .357 Golden Saber or Critical Defense which are lighter recoil for 357....it's just BB is $$$
Wow! Never SEEN a .38 Special loaded that heavy!
That's heavy man !!!
Why is everything heavy in the future, is there something wrong with the Earth's gravitational pull.
@@aarongreenfield9038 Doc?
@@GunSam Marty?
Even the hoverboards pick up a few pounds.
Thanks for the video. I would love to see how different bullet weights and velocity impact the POI vs POA. Such as a bullet traveling slower and the barrel starts to rise before the bullet leaves the end of the barrel. Looking to see if you can explain and demo sight regulation and Point of Impact on revolvers depending on your load.
My camp gun in black bear country is a super black hawk 240 grain smiwadcutter but now I have a 3 inch Smith might . Be great at the camp fire in a heavy coat
Nice to see heavy, slow, and solid. That bullet is punching 2 holes any bad guy it hits, from most angles, on most bad guys.
That cast bullet a resized .358 rifle bullet?
Never disappointed in the performance of Barnes copper bullets.
I think it was sold as a pistol bullet.
Love the revolver content, thanks for sharing! 👍❤️😎
Such a great idea for testing! Thank you!!
I've never had a bullet that narrow, that heavy! I predict that it goes through everything and keeps trucking
Lean Back Larry is the last certified revolver instructor in the country, a national treasure.
170 grain with 5 grains unique in a 4 inch barrel is cherry... Sierra RN bullet... same load with 156 grain HST works well too...
Good video.
I think you will find the longer heavy cast bullets work well at long range. If you look at the real Keith designs, you will see that Elmer meant them for long range. He also had a long range Patridge front sight with horizontal lines to show holdover at different ranges.
This is an interesting comparison. I would be curious to see a 230gr pure lead soft bullet added to the mix.
Fun video, thanks Sam. As usual, I appreciate your objectivity.
I've been using a 200 gr hard cast bullet 38 spl @ 850 FPS. I use it for bowling pin shoots.
Thouse bullets of 230 grains are awensom😮
230 gr. .38 Special?!?!? This should be interesting.
Those TAC-XPs performed nicely but I'm not sure how an Airweight J-frame would like them. Thanks for the interesting video. I'd never seen a 38 load that heavy.
A long time ago, but in my 11 oz J-Frame I once had, they worked. czcams.com/video/8maLk_CY-YA/video.html
Those 110 grain bullets look like a great carry load.
Diablo 12ga pistol could open up a whole other chapter for this channel and the amount of slugs and loads out there is insane also a great anti animal gun in a small enough package
Thanks for the snubby. I like the performance of the tac xp through either.
A miniaturized example of _why_ a freight train takes so long to stop. 😉
Your gel rig is top notch.
Spondylitis inspired lol
Interesting, always like the 38/357. Hard to beat, either in factory loads or hand loads...
Love these tests. Never stop simping for the 38/357, it’s truly the best.
Btw when are you going to treat yourself to an S&W snub? The Taurus works well but an aficionado like you should have something classy. Model 36 or 19?
I used to use S&W all the time. A S&W J-Frame has a worse trigger, is lighter and recoils more. That's not a treat.
Would be interesting to see a tumbling round in gel. Some guns have straight rifling for that use, without twist. So a long but small .22 projectil may give more damage for distance till 10meters.
czcams.com/video/Np0yFk5Kgwk/video.html
Old timers said power was more in favor of weight than raw speed. Hense lead over aluminum??? Lol
Gun sam that hard cast was very interesting. 😊😊
Recoil management is my #1 for critters. Follow up shots because they have safety in numbers. Will also be under 20 feet. Anything farther than that gives me ample time to retrieve my main tool.
1000 fps shock waves are not to be ignored IF a flat hard slap is carried thru!
Great test today lot of questions . I think you answered a lot of them.i would like to see the hard cast out of a 20 inch lever gun I have a sixteen and twenty inch for trial and camping protection for black bear many another block of jell.
Great test, thanks Sam!
Very interesting. Good stuff. Thank you.
Hmmmm…
Gun Sam 230 Grain Soft Lead casting and Manually drilling hollow point drilling with a Forester Trimmer Aficionado ?
another great video and I sure enjoy your video, thanks.
GS. Good and interesting video. What a difference. Thanks for sharing. Take care.
Thank you. You take care as well.
Very similar results for the different barrel lengths. Surprising results for low energy rounds.
If you mean the 230 gr , anybody using that would be a True Believer in Momentum being more important than Kinetic Energy .
Overshadowed by the 230 gr cast bullets , those 110gr Monolithic HP would normally be considered stand outs both foe good performance, and especially for the consistency between 2in and Canadian .
@user-uc5sn4tp3f Yes, that's simple physics. The low energy created by these rounds don't equate to good stopping power. Sam is just showing lower recoil ammunition and what it's capable of. Stopping power is more about shock levels, pain levels, actual damage, blood and tissue loss, etc. A sledge hammer or baseball bat to the ribs can cause more stopping power than this 230 gr bullet moving this slow passing through a lung. 230 grain projectiles in handguns don't really come into play until ball round fmj 45 ACP. Those are generally low power target loads. 230 grain defensive projectiles start coming into play with 41 magnums and above. You probably know this. By then, you're out of the recoil tolerance threshold of the normal person, including law enforcement personnel. That's why many law enforcement agencies are dialing back from even 40 cal, back down to 9mm. In 40 cal, the best defensive rounds stay in the 165 gr range and rarely go over 180. That's real numbers, not the numbers you hear at macho gun clubs or ranges. Now, I started my son with a 45 ACP when he was 7. I started him with regular target loads. I showed him proper recoil management. By the time he turned 13, he was capable of shooting my 500 magnum revolver. At both stages, he could shoot them, but it took some time and patience for him to get comfortable with the recoil. Not everyone gets those opportunities, and not everyone, which is less than you think. can use proper recoil mitigation. You don't know how many big burly guys allow wrist break on even 9mm. Too busy stiff arming, acting all muscle bound. That's one of the reasons police are going back to 9mm. Too many have trouble getting back on target in time for good follow up shots. Anyway, back to the 230 gr from a 38 special. For it to be hot enough to mean something, you might be going too far into dangerous pressure levels for the actual 38 special revolver and the recoil would make it unfriendly to the average person.
Shows the versatility of the revolver! Can you imagine a Semi-auto dealing with the wide weight variety of these rounds without a recoil spring change?
You can use black powder in the revolver and it will cycle
@@Daniel-du7pv or when talking a .22 revolver, cb caps no powder loads lol
The heavy slow projectiles obtain more lift as the barrel rises due to their low transit time while in the barrel. Heavy fast projectiles have a shorter transit time, but obtain more lift due the increased recoil. FWIW
Yes!!! This is the dilemma I ponder when I load my edc performance center snub nose!
As interesting as the 230 gr was from an experimental context , those 110 Mono HP loads would be very suited for carry in a 2 inch .
..the penetration of the lead bullet is SERIOUSLY impressive...
Another great test!
Flat meplat drives straight and true til it runs out of energy.
Great video. This is my go-to channel for technical info. I would hesitate carrying those light copper rounds without more information on barrier penetration. Would they bounce off a windshield?
While these had a little more power, basically the same bullet - czcams.com/video/SQ6s2Z2bMmA/video.html
Great test as usual
Great test... Like your sweatshirt 👍
Can the j-frame S&W revolvers fire a lot of those 230 gr. .38 special hard cast rounds without wearing the gun too quickly? Just curious.
Another great video on the .38 special cartridge.
I can't see why they would be a problem.
Very cool demo
Your's are always interesting and enjoyable videos!!! -Gunny T sends
Thank you
I am actually surprised those 230s stablized
The hard cast is what you want if a bear decides your lunch. Deep and straight. . 😊😊
Do you think the hard cast bullets could be loaded to .357mag levels and if so would they be good for critters i.e., hogs and black bears? Out of a lever maybe???
@mopesrus7266 yes they would. My henry bigboy firing 44 mag hard cast is a deer killing machine. I'd take it aginst a grizzly. Same as my ruger super Blackhawk hunter 44mag shooting hardcast. I get my bullets from Montana bullet works. Very high quality. Use gas checked bullets
Of course they could . But it probably wouldn't make the difference you might be expecting..
Digging deep in memory of esoteric handloading trivia , back in the day in IHMSA there was a mini fad of 200gr plus cast ( 215 - ish IIRC) for .357 Revolvers , but with .38 Spl cases to keep the COL within cylinder length . With long bbl revolvers , loaded hot to enough to have occasionally burst cylinders , was giving velocities in the 1,000 fps range . Bullets that long , displace a lot of powder space .
If you want Heavy And Fast, the neighborhood of 180 gr is probably the sweet spot in the .357 bore size .
@@mopesrus7266 Factory Grizzly or DoubleTap offer 200gr in the .357magnum.
@mopesrus7266 plenty of people use hard cast for .44 mag and .357 and the snappy recoil is less of an issue in a carbine
Hey buddy love the content maybe you could answer a question for me. Can the new 432-UC from lipseys shoot plus P? The S&W manual says no but the Buffalo Bore website says yes. I’m just trying to make sure I don’t blow my gun up lol. I’d like to use the BB I already bought for carry and S&W long for practice.
The short answer is yes. A .32 H&R Magnum as it is, is only a 21,000 PSI max cartridge, and a +P from Buffalo Bore won't be significantly hotter than that, if I had to guess i'd say maybe as hot as 25,000 PSI. In contrast a .357 Magnum is as hot as 40,000 PSI and additionally it has a lot of powder, and something like that WOULD blow apart a revolver like that by cracking the frame and blowing the entire barrel off the gun. All that being said, a 432-UC is sill only an aluminum alloy frame and .32 H&R Mag+P would put a lot of stress on it that could loosen and wear down the connection parts like the crane to the frame connection, so I would stay away from it myself, but it's unlikely you will blow-up your revolver by using it sparingly.
@@GunSam Makes sense. In that case l’ll probably return the plus p stuff and go standard pressure. If I can’t train with my defensive ammo without fear of unnecessary stress I don’t want to carry it and find out how it feels the first time I use it defensively (God forbid) Do you have any .32 H&R loads you recommend for self defense?
@@carryeveryday910 The Critical Defense .32 H&R did about as good as any. They expand a little, seem to work well enough. czcams.com/video/NvkydtvPVs0/video.html
Hey Sam, great video. I have you tested the 110 grain sjhp in 38 special? Did I miss a video? Lol
I have tested them a bit. I don't recall exactly which ones, but I do know I tested the Remington ones. Just go on my channel page and type Remington .38 Special and i'm sure it will pop up
@@GunSam thanks Sam. That's the exact round I want to see . I've always used them in 357magnum. But I want to try them in 38 special, but want to see how they perform before I buy some. Again thank you for your reply and the great videos.
Thanks!
Thanks a lot!
Can’t wait to watch tonight
For no particular reason, I am wondering what 9mm load will work best out of a 2.5 inch revolver.
I see lots of .38 special vs 9mm, but not to much (any) 9 mm out of a revolver vs a semi-auto.
Speculation is appreciated because not to many 9 mm revolvers out there!
What is ironically funny, is in a week I am buying a Taurus 905 2" revolver and am going to then do a long series on that very subject. Like Gold Dot in 3.2 auto VS 2" snub (about the same barrel/gun travel), then HST, Golden Saber and on and on. You must have good intuition. But I also been wondering what we will get, what kind of velocity and when I looked it up, found nothing on the subject, so I felt inspired to do it myself.
@@GunSam Looking forward to your results, Thanks GS.
Either one will defend you!
Wondering wheee he is at with a hoodie in July.
If a person recorded videos, and just released them right away....they wouldn't be a very organized person.
I like slow and heavy projectiles best. I want a pass through at all times. Have no use for hp.
at the risk of drawing "experts" criticism here in the comments, I carry PMC 132gr FMJ .38spl in my S&W 642 snub. they are hot rounds & penetrate well. In medium to small calibers I believe in penetration (incoming remarks, 3...2...1 😂)
There's certainly worse things to carry. That being said, FMJ is not far off from LRN which has statistically been shown to only be not particularly effective at stopping threats. JHP ammo has shown to be better at the task. While I normally don't want to split hairs, FMJ VS JHP are very far away from splitting hairs and I think you would be better served with a JHP that can both penetrate well and expand some.
@@GunSam the "experts" thing wasn't directed at you bro, it was meant for all the others I was sure would chime in. you're actually one of my fave guntubers & I post alot of your vids on gettr. I don't wanna dox myself & draw the ire of haters but for 20yrs I saw what bullets do bodies & if we really wanna boil it all down to gravy shot placement has & will always carry the day over bullet type, imho. keep doing what you do bro, respect 👍🏻
Handgun wounds often look very similar, even if the effect on stopping a threat is greater with one over another. It's why I get bothered when someone says 9mm is just as effective as .45 ACP because they saw bodies with both and the naked eye can't tell the difference. But flesh is stretchy, whatever wound is seen doesn't necessarily represent the greater unseen effects.
@@GunSam yup, bullets can do weird things to bodies and real world shootings can be bizarre. in the right spot doesn't take much to unalive someone, ✌️
Ooooo, 7:15
75yds!!! Anything Less Is!!;
Do you own a 342PD? Thought I saw it in one of your older vids. Still have it/carry it? If not, why not?
i'm not at liberty to elaborate, but it is currently in police evidence. I'm not in trouble with the law or anything, but that's where it is.
@@GunSam Damn, that stinks. I only ask because I found one locally, and I'm super psyched to try it out. Could be my ideal carry.
@@PanarchyTheater Apparently they will go through a metal detector without it going off because there's no ferrous metal in them. I never cared too much for it, but that's more due to that i'm not a huge fan of S&W J-Frames despite loving their larger revolvers. Trigger presses are like trying to break a pencil with a trigger press. Nice build quality and their hammer block safety is more reliable than the competition, i'll give them that.
Presumably the titanium and scandium isn't read by the detectors? I would think they had a steel barrel sleeve.
From what I've tried, the LCR trigger is so much better than any factory J-Frame trigger.
👍😊
should be like getting hit by a 230 grain 45 auto.proven man stopper.
That 230 grainer is probably going yo keyhole before 100 yards. But who the heck cares
interesting.
The 38 Special +P 230gr truncated flat point hard-cast is a completely worthless loading as a defensive round because it didn't tumble. The old heavy for caliber lead round nose, low velocity 38 Special was useful because the tumbling caused exaggerated wound channels. Even against thick boned animals, like bears, the 230gr loading you demonstrated would be of little value because it lacks the energy to break through thick bones. Now, that same heavy hard cast in full-power 357 Magnum would likely make a solid Bear Load. Fortunately, the Buffalo Bore 38 Special +P 110gr monolithic HP lived up to expectations. Anytime you can get a 38 Special to perform like a typical 9mm Parabellum you've done something right. Definitely, the 110gr Buffalo Bore would be worth carrying in an edc revolver if full-power 357 Magnum is too painful for snubby users.
Tumbling is irrelevant. Penetration and the face or shoulder caliber causes the real damage.
@@logangodofcandy lol...no, buddy, but i respect that you have an opinion. As far as headshots, unless you hit the nerve cluster, you may be surprised to know that a low energy, straight caliber penetration, will not necessarily immediately drop a human, or animal.
😂😂😂
@@deadmeat8754false.
idk her age, her looks whatever....
calamity jane must be a bad bitch
She's a lot older than you would expect.
The tac-xp was a great performer. Would that heavy beast be a possible 38 option for bear defense with those crazy penetration numbers?
I have a SW 686 with a 6 inch barrel... I would LOVE to see what difference it would make between these two with a 6 inch barrel
..some seriously smoky ammo...
Most warmly loaded lead ammo is
Lube in the cast lube groove vs powder selection regarding the smoke.
@@vincentphelps6325 It's actually often the lead bullet base burning. I've ran plenty of handloads without lube and they smoke just the same.
@@GunSam I will accept that I'm wrong! How does Powder coating smoke? I've got a coffee can of 160gn Wadcutters and 158lee RN waiting for me to find a toaster oven
I'm slow and heavy, 100 percent! Oh, wait, you were talking about bullets, weren't you? Never mind.
Those big-n-heavies would be gr8 vs large animals. Well, Sam, you've done it again - just when I thought the ping pong game in my head would be confined to the B.B. 158 gr standard p lswchp & the critical defense 110 gr +p, now i'm thinking about that B.B. that you just shot, although I would opt for the standard pressure out of a scandium j-frame.
Now, I've been meaning to ask you: how would I go about sending you some ammo to test? I recently grabbed some DoubleTap .38 spl 110 gr standard pressures that were advertised as jhp's but turned out to be all copper hp's. When I shot them, they were all over the place, with most missing the target completely at 7 yds. It wasn't me or my gun, since everything else that I shot was dead on or close to it. I'd be curious to see what you find.