Dune: How Myths Create Reality
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
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Is Dune about sand worms? Sure. But what if the real narrative is about the power of human storytelling? Let's find out in this Wisecrack Edition on Dune: How Myths Create Reality
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00:00 - Intro
01:52 - The Background of Dune
05:15 - Why Paul Matters
11:15 - Conclusion
Written by Dean Varga
Hosted by Michael Burns
Directed by Michael Luxemburg
Edited by Mark Potts
Video Title Card by Amanda Murphy
Produced by Evan Yee
Additional Production Assistance by Matias Rubio & Olivia Redden
Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound
#Dune #TimotheeChalamet #wisecrack
© 2021 Wisecrack / Omnia Media, Inc. / Enthusiast Gaming
What are your thoughts? Is Dune a cautionary tale or just a sci-fi trope?
It's an overly complex story about magic spice wizards and their hatred of computers.
Herbert used 6 books to cover lots of things and the focused critique of the savior leader started in Dune Messiah and onto Children of Dune and pinnacle God Emperor. It's literally a college academic course in philosophy & literature in many universities and you could do a long video series using the novels and parse all of Herberts' quotes & maxims by characters reflecting on humanity and history. There are many CZcams channels already breaking down the original novels like Quinn's Ideas channel or book readings discussions by ComicbookGirl19 or tons of podcasts by Dune lore fans. Pish there is TOO MUCH background on the academic wealth of knowledge Frank Herbert lays down in his books & DUNE series, you are joking trying to imply it can even be reduced (only by the blind & intentional ignorant) to simplicity of scifi trope. The fact is Herbert makes you invested in Paul and his life that it is meant to make you question yourself as you identify with his trials and that real life leaders that you believe & follow mimic the fictional power structures and leadership tropes being shown to grow corrupt and failing or not always perfect pure even in the face of greater evil surrounding.
It is clearly a cautionary tale. A caution that the most vocal voices in our society today seem blissfully ignorant of.
Just 2 thoughts: Paul raised a Jihad. Not a Crusade. And, the Fremen were manipulating Paul just as much as him and Jessica were using the myths to their own advantage.
Lastly, it's not a cautionary tale against heroes, but a portrayal of mass social systemic forces that are natural patterns of humanity, for good or ill.
Sorry but this video wasn’t a great take on Dune in my opinion. You have to completely ignore the golden path and the inevitability of the path the world of dune was on to walk away with these points.
8:03 OK, I gotta stop you right there.
Paul WANTED to fix things, but he physically couldn't. By the time Paul got his ability to see into all possible futures, he saw that the path that would lead to universal genocide had already started. He saw that, even if he took his own life to try to stop it, the result would still be catastrophic, since the Fremen would make a martyr out of him. What Paul does is to try to stay in the path that would result in the smallest amount of bloodshed possible. It just so happens that, due to the scale of the story, that "smallest amount" was in the billions of people.
We have to keep in mind that Herbert wanted to warn us against charismatic leaders, not because he thought they were all necessarily evil, either secretly or otherwise, but because they were human beings, just a fallible as everyone else.
This is an important point. The problem is systemic, and no amount of benevolence on Paul's part could set it right. Just as it doesn't matter how benevolent a billionaire might want to be, they can't undo the inevitably harmful nature of capitalism as individuals. Just as Paul's very existence is part of the problem, the existence of billionaires is part of the problem. The difference being, of course, that Paul can't stop being a part of the problem, while for billionaires it's a choice. Sure, they can't fix the problem, but they could at least stop being part of the problem. But they won't.
Also Paul actually did not go the whole way, as his son (God Emperor of Dune spoilers) took the "Golden Path" while Paul only saw it, but could not force himself to be the tyrant that ends tyrany.
You're overlooking the fact that, in the books, the Golden Path that is seen through Paul, and later his son Leto, is a lot more than just a way to shuffle political power around. It's about the survival of humanity, when an ancient menace returns. The atrocities committed during the Jihad, and the brutality of the God Emperor's regime, were a crucible, necessary to forge a mankind capable of standing against the threat to come, and without it the species wouldn't stand a chance.
Ah yes, the Terrible Purpose of The Golden Path. Just like Dr Strange looking in the future he saw ONE outcome where they won...one outcome where Fremen wouldn't wipe out the rest of the galaxy in a Paul's name...warping the way he took control of Arrakis into some kind of manifest destiny. Ultimately his son Leto leads humanity along a path where there will be no more colonialism...no more Emperor of the universe.
I agree. Dune is not the story of a great man with the power to change things as he wishes. It is the story of a powerful man who realizes his power is useless. Paul is trapped by fate. Despite his abilities, he sees no truly good outcome, just less terrible ones.
A lot of critics who have never actually read Dune think it's a "white savior" story. That's like thinking Lord of the Rings is about fancy jewelry.
Many people are too far up their own asses nowadays, they are incapable of putting their own beliefs and ideologies aside in order to see things from different perspectives, even if it's just for a just a moment.
Be fair. If you only do a quick surface read of the first book, it does fit almost all of the tropes of WS stories. (it owes a lot to the boys adventure stories where the Brit or American kid goes to some colonialized country and wins over the 'natives' and becomes their leader - like the 'Boys Own' stories I grew up reading in the UK.) Only when you read the later books, and go back and reread the first one that it is clear that the first book is a complete subversion of that kind of the WS story - the hints are all there in the first book, but they are just hints. So the analogy to 'jewely' misses the whole point of what FH was doing - he was using those tropes in order to undermine the hero theme of WS / BO stories. FH is a better writer than you give him credit for.
Dune book 1 is like that tho,the subversion are mostly in the sequel books
Grace randolph lol
That's cause it IS a white savior story, that's the entire point, is just that this time instead of the 'hero' being undoubtedly framed as in the right, the book wants us to analyze why we, why the people, fall into these kind of myths., why do we worship and idolize powerful figures, and why do we continue to believe that there are people 'destined' to rule, to be above others. The book IS a white savior story, like 100%, and that is intentional because it is required in oder for the process of deconstructing the nature of myths to be possible, among other things. But mostly, I think the books wants us to stop believing in 'chosen ones' and stuff like that, to realize that that is a silly, pretty unfair and fascist concept, and that it only leads to trouble, not just because of the leaders, but for the extremes the followers are willing to go in their names.
Among other things, Dune is a timeless warning against heroes and idols
And a cult of personality, ignorant of the flaws of its leader
And also spice worms...
Especially relevant today I’d say
@@lococomrade3488 I get you were joking, but the worms really were part of the warning - overreliance on a tech/resource that is ultimately deleterious to the society's "health".
@@mandisaw Nah, it's clearly a warning to not wear worm skin for too long.
As Liet-Kynes' dad once said: “No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero”
One thing he's seeing through the wrong end of the telescope is that it's not Paul that is trying to manipulate the Fremen it's just the other way around, it's how Paul fits into the world like he was made to fit it from his beginning.
104th, second, also a reply 14 min ago.
(Dont mind this weird stuff)
that saying is really cool and deep.
@@tomasinacovell4293 Yes, thats part of the tragedy of the character, he realizes too late he walked into a trap or conditioned to walk into lol
Exactly... this is the level of science fiction nerd level take themselves to serious im talking about.
Probably my biggest criticism of the movie is that they didn’t have Dr Kynes listening to the mirage of his/her dad while stuck in the desert. That whole sequence lays out so many of the book’s themes.
"Greatness is a transitory experience. It is never consistent. It depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of humankind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man."
-Frank Herbert, Dune
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"sit down, be humble"
Thanks for sharing nice message
this sounds like timothee chalamet
One thing that always struck me about Dune as I was reading it was how it felt like reading a biography and messianic text in parallel--with Paul stuck in the middle, knowing that he's stuck on this path and that he cannot change his story anymore. The manufactured prophecies blended with the actual style and presentation of the text as a whole. It just works together really well.
As you were "reading" it huh?
@@Flippy_Nips yeah. Reading it. This video wasn't specific to the film adaptations, so I mentioned a structural quirk of the source material.
@@Flippy_Nips yeah jackass, as you notice things like writing style, literary techniques/devices/elements, tone, perspective, etc. the more you actively process anything with depth.
What, did you instantly know everything this book was gonna contain just looking at the title? Then congratulations Mr. Sparknotes
@@murk4552 man wtf did I do to you. I was merely pointing out the fact that he just had to include the fact that he read the books. As if to set himself apart from the rest who don't "read".
@@Flippy_Nips are you being salty over that? Reading the books mean you do have more knowledge about the story and thus its themes.
I think Dune was to me the first introduction to the idea that systems themselves propagate power, not individuals. Herbert had a kind of wild life too.
“Dune” is a masterpiece for three reasons. 1. The big-scale depicting all the six elements of civilization, science & technology,
economic & social (including cultural) activity, laws & policies, material resources, human resources, natural & social environments.
2. The ingenious SF settings that improve human abilities, reviving old weapons or schemes. 3. The theme tells us the importance of human improvement, not only of some people but all the people. I think the author tried hard to balance entertainment & reality.
Wisecrack: "Get ready for a deep dive into Dune."
Quinn's Ideas: "Hold my beer".
At first Paul and Jessica used the Missionaria Protectiva in order to survive. Later, Paul used it to get revenge on the Harkonnens. By the time Paul had become prescient enough to see where his actions would lead, it was too late. He saw that Muad'Dib's Jihad would go on with or without him and all he could do was try to mitigate the damage. He entertained walking away multiple times, and when he finally found a way out, it cost him his lover, his eyesight and his power, leaving his children to make the hard sacrifices to find the Golden Path.
This is good stuff. However I do like wisecracks take cause it’s a good beginners lesson. I’ll watch Quinn’s ideas next! Thanks
RIGHT. It really needs books 1-4 to really play out. That's not to discount the following books, those are even more meta.
Are you talking about Chani?
Jessica definitely manipulated the myths in order to save her son, and to set him up to lead the Fremen. The insight here is that Paul didn't question whether he should become a leader amongst the Fremen. He had the skills to do so, and so he did it. Whether prescient or not in the end, he still chose to use myths and legends to establish himself amongst the Fremen.
@@domicius Yeah. It's kinda chilling and upsetting in the later half of Dune how he sublimated the desires of the Fremen for freedom dignity and independence, into a quest to avenge his father's killer. Game of Thrones took note in making the Heroic Charming Starks start a blood feud. Hebert made ir so uncomfortable. George left that in the subtext for his fans to hash out.
By the end of Dune Paul is screaming at people that his destiny to be Duke Atreides is twined with their wants and desires for idk... not to be enslaved oppressed and beaten for no reason.
Duke Atreides is A lot like Ned Stark but he actually might not be worth saving... and is definitely not worth starting an intergalactic war for. And the firemen should have independence. Not be Paul's worshippers. It's chilling. Just listen to the book on tape
If you read the later books it really solidifies everything he's saying about Dune. A majority of the series is about creating a galaxy without the need for messianic leaders.
The anarchism is strong with Herbert /s
@@imperfect_dan7519 he isn't anrchist..he sayed that a government or a rulling body is necessary for civilation. But we should be cerfule on who we put on tope and not just blindly follow them
@@yuvalgabay1023 I was joking
@@imperfect_dan7519 man ..I was really r/whoosed*melts into pain
But doesn't a messianic leader put them on the path to freedom? His child turns into a human worm god to set humanity on the right course. How is that not messianic?
As the Dune series goes on, Herbert made a point of hammering the "Blindly following a charismatic leader is bad" point with increasing bluntness.
I think he said something to the effect “every leader should come with a sign ‘follow at your own risk’,”
The massage in Herbert's dune goes beyond "the dangers of charismatic ruler", as it's a commentary on belief structures that lead to creation of messiahs and saviors that captivate people's minds to do everything for them. The plague that humans created for themselves which chained all future generations. At the end, Paul was not a savior (as he regularly mentions himself) and he was forced to be a dictator like ruler, but even he didn't posses the strength to truly free humanity from the chains mentioned before. His legacy was almost a failure, if it wasn't because of his decadent.
*his descendant
Otherwise, spot-on commentary
@@mandisaw "the massage" ;)
@@amirmoradi9595 Good catch, too LOL
But doesn't a descendant of Paul set humanity on the Golden Path? It takes a savior to give them all freedom and to keep the human race from annihilation. It seems that his books actually end up implying that someone very powerful is going to have to save everyone.
The myth of a savior is just a myth. Behind any public figure are always larger systems and dynamics that rule the show. Dune sort of shows that.
Hello Americans, I'm from the future (also known as Europe). Dune is really good! Totally worth seeing!
Second that
Eh, it's worth the ticket's price, but... 🙄🤓
I’m also from the future. Dune is amazing!
I'm Canadian, I watched it last night. It's ok.
Hey!
Non-timetravelling but fellow European here. Glad to hear that. The movie only comes in 3-days-time here in Hungary.
And despite I'm yet to read the books (own the original, failed to start up to a month ago so better postpone after movie) the Westwood RTS games based on it were a major part of my childhood, so I have expectations.
It's a good video, but I'd argue that Paul didn't fight his terrible purpose because he knew it was inevitable. This is a character that can see the future and how his actions will affect the galaxy, and really early in the book where Paul fights a fremen (whose name I forgot right now) in a cave, he knows that even if he were to be killed, he would become a martyr, and the war would still take place.
This isn't an excuse for his actions obviously, but Paul's fate was sealed long before he had any say in it.
Edit: The fremen's name was Jamis, the fight takes place in the same chapter Paul takes the name Muad'Dib
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@@ELENA-yl8yu begone, bot
I read it a little differently. At that point in the story when he's making his most decisive choice we are aware that he's not fully up to the challenge of engaging with prescience. He doesn't have a perfect view, and once the bomb goes off that's made literal. He has the 'power' but he's essentially overwhelmed by it, he doesn't have the capacity to engage with it fully.. Those are two futures he sees, but they're incomplete. I think "Rickmancing the Stone" is a goofy version of what happened in a way.
@@weatheranddarkness i think its a combination of both you and the op’s point of view, his prescience is imperfect but that prescience only shows him worse results and thus he interprets it as inevitable. It’s not that he didn’t do anything like the video claims it’s that any action led to worse results. That’s why Leto II (technically III) does everything he does, to free humanity from prescience and its myths
Exactly, guiseppe! Paul’s journey is one of FATE. He looses his eyesight in the second novel only to predict how everything and everyone will exist in the universe. So Paul lives the path and cannot change it. The final 3 novels from the initial author is about how the son of Paul fights the entropy and inevitably of Paul’s initial predictions. So, yes, we can judge Paul for his blind acceptance of leadership, but I see him as a Greek tragedy, like Oedipus. Also, the great Jihad of Paul’s prediction mirrors the Islamic expansion after the fall of Rome. I will bow to better scholars on that detail beyond just pointing out the linguistic connection with the phrase, Jihad, and also how Dune as a planet has a few similarities with Western European views of the Middle East (a valuable fuel for travel, arid, inhospitable terrain). I want to be cautious with my thoughts as I am not promoting the potential racism, only identifying a mid 20th century view of a very controversial topic.
So lucky to have such a visionary director take the helm of this project. I was blown away while I streamed dune last night and can’t wait to go watch it in imax. This movie was an amazing part one but we NEED a part two for it to be truly iconic. Please for the love of good art, cinema, storytelling, and fun support this movie officially if you can. We don’t want another game of thrones where the beginning is amazing but the end is forgettable leaving it in the past of many.
My dad, who has since passed away loved this book and the earlier movie. I never got into it but am willing to give a 2022 version a try. My dad would definitely be excited. Wish he was here.
You guys should really do a series of an episode each on the books, or at least Messiah, Children, and God Emperor. The way the themes youve brought up here evolve through the series is really incredible, especially in Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune.
Quinn’s Ideas here on CZcams breaks down each book really well, as well as discusses themes from the books. He also has things on other sci-fi series and Game of Thrones. I’d say go check him out.
“And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest bit of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the jihad would be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They needed only the legend he already had become.” Go back and watch what your own Thug Notes video has to say about Paul, you got it right the first time.
As a European, I’ve already seen the movie and it is beyond amazing. 10/10, every frame a painting, super captivating, can’t wait for part two.
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Can you tell me what was so beautiful about this movie? I'm genuinely curious. Because I saw it also and it looked like dogshit. Worst lighting and grading I've seen in a movie, the images were more dark than the Season 8 Nighwalkers fight in Game of Thrones.
@@dragonstone6594 Yeah its so odd considering the same cinematographer for Dune seems to have done a far better job at "dark scenery" for Matt Reeves' The Batman movie for next year.
@@Latinkon I think the one to blame more is the guy who did the color correction and grading in post. Because even if a scene is badly lit, you can bring it out decently in post production.
Either way though I'm sick to death of these long, brown and grey movies. I gave it a chance but eventually wasted 7€ and 3 hours of my life.
A huge part of the Dune series after the first book is about making sure that what happened in the first book can never ever ever happen again. Frank Herbert said in an interview that Dune was written with existentialist themes central in his mind, which include the importance of individual authenticity and awareness of one's own freedom. Herbert doesn't go into detail that I am aware of about exactly what he means by that.
What I've noticed is that the series shows how the Fremen are manipulated by the Bene Gesserit into believing in myths which empower Paul and allow him to use the Fremen to accomplish goals which are not necessarily in their best interest. The Fremen belief in prophecy dooms them to carry out actions which destroy their culture, strip them of their freedom, and make them into the blind instrument of a genocide which they falsely believe is the inevitable will of God. Paul is doomed by his nearly unlimited knowledge of all possible futures to have no personal freedom about which path he takes in life. His abilities eventually make him into a human supercomputer with power and knowledge similar to a god, but this also strips him of his humanity, transforms him into the unwilling figurehead of a genocidal prophecy and prevents him from living out his true desire for a simple human life with the woman he loves.
A lot of why the Dune sequels have never been as popular as the first book is because the second book in the series in particular is absolutely brutal about how it shows this tragic message play out, while the first book is much more subtle about what it implies will be the ultimate consequences of Paul's hero's journey. The first book really makes you *feel* the seductiveness of Paul's cult of personality and the righteousness of Paul and the Fremen's motivations and character. As a result the second book ends up dropping on a lot of folks like a continuous succession of flaming pianos dropping out of a 20th-floor window. The second book is an incredibly impactful and masterfully written tragedy which is only hard to read because of how incredibly good it is and because of how relevant its themes are for the world we live in. Its underrated even today not because it is bad but because it is simply way too good to handle.
The fourth book is arguably the best in the series. The fourth book is the one which ties all of the others together, and it is one of the best and most unique books in all of science fiction.
Dune shares the themes of the classic Monty Python's Life of Brian: czcams.com/video/iktKXIsRUIg/video.html I wouldn't be surprised at all if Life of Brian was directly inspired by some of the themes of the first two books in the Dune series. Life of Brian lacks Dune's ecological themes and quite a few others, but the existential themes are very similar.
Ah, here is the interview where Herbert mentions Dune's existentialist themes. Its a fascinating interview: czcams.com/video/A-mLVVJkH7I/video.html
I know books aren't super cool these days, but it would be cool if you covered the book series. There is so much more past the first book to discuss.
Agreed. Although that whole thing with the 'other' Duncan in the subsequent book is so odd. I tried to reread the series recently and got hung up there. But I do remember loving the leadership lessons of the God Emperor book (final one, I think?)
@@jmckey chapterhouse is the final one written by Frank Herbert
They could use the Sci-fi channel's version, which covered the first 3 books across two miniseries. I never read the books myself [prefer my hard SF as short stories], but my late hubby and several cousins & friends were/are deep into the lore. Any discussion of whether Dune is supporting - or subverting - a colonial savior myth really needs to consider little-Leto's story as the conclusion of Paul's arc.
I wish this new movie all the best, but I think for its length, it'll prove too short to give viewers the intended satisfying & meaningful conclusion.
@@jmckey Duncan has a rollercoaster of a life...lives? Lol. I find him fascinating due to how those circumstances shape his positions over time. Who he aligns himself with and why. How his ideas challenge those around him and how those people challenge him. His ideas and beliefs are just as crucial to his identity crisis as the plot circumstances. I don't want to say too much for sake of spoiling. Great character though.
@@mandisaw You do know that this is just part one of the first book? The title of the movie is literally Dune Part One. WB is on board with making Part Two, and they are starting very soon on it.
I think the cultural legacy of Dune didn't include the savior critique. In part, this is because it is not a central part of the first book but only one of it element. The critique became stronger in the Dune sequel but they had far less of a cultural impact and legacy compared to the first book.
Interestingly, that help keep Dune fairly relevant today which is not the case for the other 1966 Hugo best of all times nominee with the exception of the Lord of the Rings and, to a far lesser degree than LotR , Foundation.
I still remember seeing this in 1984 (was a huge fan after recently reading some of them)... and saying too loud in a quiet theater "Wait, is it raining!?"
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Dune was great for me as a child back in the day.
2021 version is just as good. It is being stretched out even more so and I love that decision.
Dune deserves a TV series remake with the same robust budget and longevity as Game of Thrones.
Good thing it's getting a movie remake
@@Dewey4200 movies are shitty storytelling mediums. They almost all feel rushed because of the time limits
@@goblin3810 well, this one was great
Go watch the movie, seriously, it's super good
And unlike GoT, the series is fully released so they won't have to pull a terrible final series out their butt
The God Emperor Leto the second would be pleased. The golden path endures.
As a Honduran, Dune fan & long-time Wisecrack subscriber I never thought Yoro's raining fish would ever be featured on any of your videos. Anyway awesome video guys!
Never heard that story. Delightful.
I’ve been reading and rereading dune for 15 years and I’m always seeing something differently or learning something new.
That said God Emperor of Dune is the GOAT.
Long live the Duncan Idaho Ghola
The real "hero" of Dune
Dont' you mean Gholas?
'I don't like Dune because it is just reinforcing the white messiah myth' "Oh, cool, so you havnt actually read it yet? Or were you just unable to understand it?"
Hot take: Dune is also about ecology.
That's the thing: the Fremen were doing just fine before Paul showed up. If anything, Paul shows up and hijacks their culture in a way that ultimately destroys their culture.
12:52 "but stories, Dune warns us, can also be fuel for destructive forces used to justify and reinforce unfair power disparities." Oh, thank goodness no one's doing that today.
As a kid I only saw the epic world building and Paul's hero's journey, but as an adult, I can see all of Herbert's warnings about self-fulfilling prophecy and idolatry.
As Donna Haraway said, “It matters what matters we use to think other matters with; it matters what stories we tell to tell other stories with; it matters what knots knot knots, what thoughts think thoughts, what descriptions describe descriptions, what ties tie ties. It matters what stories make worlds, what worlds make stories.”
The Fremen Jihad was coming whether Paul was at the head of it or not.
It's mentioned multiple times in the book that pretty much everything Paul is doing is to mitigate a galaxy wide war as much as possible.
It's disingenuous to attribute everything he did as a will to power and out of entitlement.
He had no ill will but his actions kick started it, and by the time he got powers to see the future it was to late. At first he used tropes to fight Harkonens and take revenge but later on when he saw where it leads it was to late to stop.
That makes no sense like the arab conquest would have never happened if prohepet didn't lead them
This also makes it out like Paul is a conman, he isn't. He legit has those powers and is forced to allow travesties to occur as the alternative is far worse and he will father an even more powerful character that will similarly be forced to allow himself to be known as a tyrant be many to keep human kind from literally going extinct. These are tragic characters, not some snake oil salesmen.
Well he kind of is at the point. He used that lies to get power and later he developed those powers. So he lied, only this lies turned out to be true later and he did not know that. Regardless, he used them for personal vendetta and not to free them as a first motive. Later on he found out what making them free will do to the galaxy but it was to late.
When you see a self-proclaimed "philosopher" do this sort of mental gymnastics in order to get from Dune to "systems of oppression" and how missionaries trying to change "hey, let's murder innocents to appease our made up gods" into "love thy neighbor" is somehow a BAD thing because of "colonialism", you know you're witnessing an intellectually dishonest asshole trying to sound smarter than he really is and nothing more.
@@khatack that was about what I came up with tbh. Also, Dune is a sprawling series and this takes Dune as if it was a one and done. There are definitely echoes of colonialism and all that but the conclusions reached here entirely ignore so much of the novel. Almost like they were just focused on Lynch's adaptation and in looking at it like that then there may be some sense to be made of these conclusions. One thing I will certainly give them is that Dune absolutely turns normal story telling tropes upside down and inside out, it is like nothing else to be sure.
@@robertdctrey When you're politically motivated, you don't care about the story, you only care about reaching your desired conclusions from it. Academic "philosophy" is what Socrates would've called sophistry and has nothing to do with philosophy, which is the love of wisdom. I'll stop here because I can't speak honestly about academic "philosophers" without using excessive profanity. This damn video makes my blood boil.
I agree this video’s a pretty shallow dive into the universe as a whole. However, for the purposes of the universe Paul is a conman. What was prophesied was was much closer to Leto II and Paul was never going that route. He shunned the golden path.
“The Romans broadcast the pharaonic disease like grain farmers scattering the seeds of next season’s harvest-Caesars, kaisers, tsars, imperators, caseris … palatos … damned pharaohs!”
I was a fan of Dune story. Now I am a full Air Conditioner
Philosophers in Space is a great podcast that has three whole episodes breaking down Dune.
thanks a lot, i've been looking for some good sci-fi podcasts. If anyone's got more recommendations, please share
personally i really enjoy the Infinite Worlds Podcast, they did a great episode on dune as well
@@naanbread4523 I’ll check that out.
We need to circle back to the raining fish thing… that’s some good fun
One part of the book that struck me was that Paul knew his actions would result in a galactic civil war and tons of would perish. But I thought the book did a good job of making it feel like this was unavoidable IF they wanted a different system/society. In other words, Paul never considered stopping his uprising but not because he just had to be king--it was because the universe deserved it ;)
After what you just covered, it makes even more sense. Paul never saw himself as anything less than a God/King/Leader.
No Paul did not ever see himself as that. Even when he was a child he didn't want to rule. It's why he has that conversation with his father about what would happen if he doesn't want to become Duke
I'd disagree that Paul is enthusiastically taking advantage of the Fremen's belief in him as a messiah. Paul keeps getting trapped in everyone's prophesies which put power in his lap, but he is terrified of where that power will lead. Part of his tragedy is that as he becomes more and more prescient, which you'd think would make him more powerful, he becomes even more trapped and powerless as he realizes what a powder keg he's on and how inconsequential his life really is as anything other than a catalyst. He can't handle it, and can't bring himself to take the extreme actions that would actually change the future significantly (the actions that his son will take). The colonial critique is there for the Bene Gesserit, but Paul isn't interested in their goals he just wants revenge on the Harkonnens. Yet everything he does accelerates the universe towards war because of how the Emperor and the Bene Gesserit have set up the whole situation to explode, assuming that they would be the ones to control the terms of the explosion.
This video's take that "yes Paul is an unabashed colonialist, and that's the point! He's a villain!!" makes me nervous, because it makes the story racist unless Paul is made out to be an unambiguous dick, and given that as portrayed by Timothee he will certainly be more of a cool hot action boy, that's setting up for failure and bad vibes... A more believable, less racially dicey, and truer to the text take is that the Emperor and Bene Gesserit are the colonialists and that Paul sets off a chain of events that is more powerful in scope than he can embody or control, even when he himself is its figurehead and possesses godlike powers.
I’ve been waiting for wisecrack fine for years
The complexity def comes from how many characters perspectives we get in the book. Without even changing chapters or anything you get different perspectives of every thing happening. This makes it able to discuss many different ideas on these very difficult and deep philosophical questions.
So excited for this movie. I listened to the entire series on audiobook while rebuilding a car. The book series explores so many different themes and schools of thought as they progress that I really hope they can at least make the 3 original books into movies.
I've seen it... don't be :-(
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CZcams: This is fine
Someone: Says "heck"
CZcams: Be gone
#однако #я #люблю #таких #рыбаков
#Интересно #забавно #девушка #смешная #垃圾
what car did you rebuild?
Then you should see how a movie can't possibly do it justice
@@Elfdard why, does it suck?
This is the best video I've seen in awhile! It doesn't really apply to 2021 Dune part one, though, because that movie doesn't get far enough into the story. This video will certainly apply to part 2.
I love how in David Lynchs movie when Paul made it magically rain somehow ? Which he can't do in the books but that scene just ignored the whole ecology of dune because if it did rain on dune then it would kill all the sandworms as they would be drowned so no more spice. I hope there aren't any big inconsistencies like this in the new dune.
Pretty sure Dune was the co-winner of the 1966 Hugo award with This Immortal by legendary author Roger Zelazny (The Chronicles of Amber, Lord of Light). While This Immortal hasn't stood the test of time anywhere near the as well as Dune (looking back 55 years later it's actually laughable that they tied) it still was considered at the time to be equivalent. Really just wanted to shout out Zelazny, dude was amazing and weird and really ahead of his time.
You should really do a video on Leto in the later books (don't want to spoil anything).
That is my favourite character in all of fiction
Not sure I agree that Paul “wanted” to be become emperor I think for him his actions were guided thru the lense of self preservation. It was also difficult to prevent the jihad when he hadn’t fully come into his powers yet. I always remember when Paul told his mom “you made me a monster” as him expressing his sustain for the institutions he was brought up in. I think he just wanted to be a kid at the end of the day not the ruler of a galaxy
Right he just want to protect himself and his mom and he needed the Freemen to do that. At best he wanted to be a Duke like his father.
Yea. He did con them to take revenge not knowing where it will lead later. By the time he saw it it was to late. He is not evil person and this makes this books great, how the system is flawed and playing with fire is dangerous and can get out of hand.
Micheal straight up choosing violence by no longer signing off with "peace"
I think you missunderstood Paul's character. At first, him and his mother used the myth in order to survive. Later on, when Paul got his powers and saw what would become of his actions, he saw himself in a path with no turning back and he suffered with his visions. Therefore, he chose the best way he could for the galaxy as multiple futures were presented to him. The point of Frank Herberts narrative was that the story of charismatic leaders and can be used to manipulate people in a away that even those leaders can't stop.
Shout-out for mentioning Lensman!
Also, what I got from the book was that if Paul wanted to evade the yihad, it would happen anyway. Like his timevision told him that he didnt had a choice.
DUNE means that drug addition is the key to interstellar space flight :)
I feel that analyzing and dissecting Dune as just 1 book and not a series is like judging a movie by a 10 second preview or a person by just exchanging a few words with them.
Thug Notes has forever enriched Dune for me in that now I read Paul's house as ATREIDEEZ NUTZ
With the new movie coming out the interweb is full of hot takes and weird takes of people who didn't seem to even hit close to the messages of the books. Glad to see Wisecrack not only pinpoint some accurate interpretations but also be open to discussion on them.
Thank you for the content.
Great video and analysis.
The Children of Dune miniseries focused deeply on the themes you mentioned. I hope that someday they are revisited in IMAX... It'll take a generational commitment by WB, though.
I think it's a folly to view dune outside of the first couple book's context. The sequels especially drive home the message.
Herbert was skeptical of political and religious leadership, that is clear in the novels. What is not clear at all in the series is what is a better alternative. Hence, the book is not really prophetic.
Shame Herbert never got to finish the fabled Dune 7 novel, as the best we have is a vague line about a " transition to a fictional universe of democratic rule" from a second hand source.
THANK YOU for making this video! As a huge fan of Frank Herbert's Dune, I've had legit arguments with people about the fact that Paul is not a "good guy", and that he (and Jessica) take advantage of a safety net put in place by the Bene Gesserit - The Missionaria Protectiva - in order to live among the Fremen and take back power for the Atreides on Arakis.
I just watched Dune last night and I have to agree; at first I thought it was the same savoir myth, but Paul knows he's being used to be a savoir figure. And then, when he's desperate, he uses the myth for his own good, even having seen the visions of the war that will be fought in his name. It's incredibly unique and compelling, and I'm surprised with how old and popular the book is this trope hasn't been used much. (just lots of reluctant heros who still end up heros)
Holy shit i just realized Paul Atriedes is Napoleon.
"All charismatic leaders should come with a warning; may be hazardous to your health." - Frank Herbert.
I love how dune makes us think about our power structures and why they are the way they are
Thank you. Dune is very influential and that’s great I’m happy for it. But I think it was very clear that it is very Barsoom-y. Chani being the Dejah Thoris and Paul being John Carter.
I feel like you are somewhat under stating the degree to which Paul is actually a personally tragic character
It’s not simply that Paul refused to stop the jihad, it’s that by the time he realized what was going to happen there were was virtually no way back
It’s not just that Paul used the myth to gain power it’s that in the end the myth shackled him as much as it shackled those around him. In the end there was only the option of death or to surrender to the myth he started before he understood what it meant.
I think a full discussion of dunes use of myth also requires a dissection of the fremens religious fanaticism which is ultimately the cause for the jihad in the books, where Paul does not order it, it simply begins
Nice video production guys. Any idea what's the music title for the beat from 2:00 to 5:00?
Good summary of the book
Well done analysis. I view Dune not only as a warning against heroes and messiahs, but as a rebuttal to those who believe they can impose some type of ultimate order upon the universe. Notice how the ones who fall the hardest in the series are those who tend to overreach.
You guys should start publishing wisecrack books, I've been reading the *blackwell philosophy and popular culture* series and I'm enjoying It a lot, the world needs a wisecrack popular culture and philosophy book series.
Can't wait for Friday
DAMN! When did Wisecrack hit 3MILL? LETS GO
Just watched the 2021 film and it was amazing
I just hope it continues strong in pt II
Can't wait for the end of this year to see the second Dune movie!
I highly recommend seeing the movie in big screens. Visually amazing.
A Honduran reference in Wisecrack, someone wake me up from this dream.
I think Dune very much is a critique of the times, especially from the perspective of the later books which get rather complicated and introspective. I hope someone gets to covering these later books like this from the same perspective as you. It's deeply philosophical with some interesting conclusions.
I had no single idea of Dune film nor the book but oh my i watched it On IMAX yesterday. And it was phenomenal. It’s epic and visually stunning of a half complete story. Once again Denis Villeneuve and Warner Bros present an amazing film. It’s my best film of 2021 so far. Can’t wait for second installment and yeah WB have basically confirmed the second part.
Paul saw the golden path and justified all the bloodshed in his name to get there. It was only when he rejected it for love that he became cold and calculating. He was trapped by his own earlier decisions. His son the god-emperor made the sacrifice turning himself into a sandworm to breed humans that could not be seen by future sight.
I've only read the first half of Dune, but the first thing that struck me was how much other sci-fi has built off of it (*cough* Star Wars). As for Paul, it was interesting to see him grapple with his seer abilities. He could see nearly all futures but eventually realized they were always changing -- nothing was completely certain. Also, joining the Fremen was more about survival than rulership. I haven't read the second half yet, so I'm sure things start to take a new direction.
I really want to see a video about Sanderson's Stormlight Saga.
Good video; although, I would add that Paul also has deeply personal motives for striking back at the Emperor and House Harkonnen.
I liked the new movie and i really hope with its sequel it is bold enough to go against these tropes and not frame Paul completely one sided as a typical messianic hero and accurately portray Herbert's intentions as discussed in this video. Maybe at least be ambiguous about it, but I listened to the audiobook and I myself got the impression pretty early on that deconstructing heroism was the exact intent. It's like an old story but it really surprised me in that regard. In the '84 movie that subtext was not there, maybe it couldn't be. But now's the time and I am so there for it because this and the ecology theme are all-time important topics.
There were already many hints in even portraying the cynicism behind Paul's portrayal as the chosen one in this movie. Better than how Lynch portrayed Paul. Paul here seemed more fearful and hesitant of his visions...I didn't get the feel of something hopeful...more tragic than anything. And I didn't even read yet half of Dune to find out about the subversions.
You nailed man that is DUNE, I hope the director Denis Vilenueve will be able to close Paul's Ark like it was intended to be, strip the Myth and showcasing the Man.
The captions at 4:31 tho xD
Thank you
"Too few individuals and a people reverts to a mob."
-Stilgar
I didn't read the books, yet I was FLOORED by this masterpiece💜
Solid, t's like you read the book :)
I feel like I learned more about the basic storyline from this video than watching the two movies.
I believe it's very important to talk about your point that Paul didn't try to stop the Jihad. The book clearly states that by the time he gained full prescience, it was far too late. The best he could do was mitigate the damage, but there was no route, whether he lived or died, that stopped galactic genocide.
Then his son took the concept and... ran with it, to put it nicely.
0:45
Yes!!!!!!
Herbert pretty much stated in an interview that the story was a cautionary tale about "Chosen ones"
"While the Emperor has the most power in the galaxy...."
Does he though?
When I was 17 having read Frank Herbert's Dune and saw David Lynch's Dune I ate of the "power". Growing up, rereading the book and having just seen Denis' Dune, you realize "power's" pitfall and corrosion.
"So seal up those Stillsuits and get ready for a deep dive into Dune."
Bold of you to assume my Stillsuit is not sealed at all times, off-worlder. Anything else would be pathetic water discipline.
ok now do the philosophy of legend of the galactic heroes
This! The best animated series many haven't seen yet (either the original 110 episode OVA version or Die Neue These). A must watch for anyone claiming to be a Star Wars, Game of Thrones or Dune fan.
I’ve not read the book, but I’ve seen it and it’s thick. By the sounds of it, it should be a show not a movie.
well, Villeneuve's movie is the first half of the first book, and it's 148 minutes long.
(and every single one of them is amazing)
Sci-fi Channel thought the same thing - they did two 5-6hr miniseries covering the first 3 books. Honestly, I think Warner Bros should have gone that route, and made this a prestige show for HBO.
Would've knocked that GoT taste right out of people's mouths :)
@@mandisaw Does Dune have enough content for that? GoT a sh*t load of characters and side stories, I'm not sure if the same would posssible in Dune.
@@gustavocvieira8584 Just counting the "core" story of Paul and the people he directly impacts / his immediate family, that's 3-4 dense books filled with loads of characters and enough intrigue to choke a sandworm. Rather than "not enough" story, the main problem is that there's way too much to readily tell in a handful of movies.
I’m so glad people are discovering Herbets genius.