I've not had a chance to see this review, however, after watching it-I don't understand why Weber came at you the way they did. I felt like this was a fair, honest, personal review where you raised valid concerns and critiques.
You’re welcome, and honestly, happy to do it. I was very hopeful about this grinder being the last one I’ll ever buy, not quite as hopeful now. Thanks for watching!
I just watched this for the second time and just noticed the Sir Mix-a-Lot line you snuck in there - “it’s a big but and I cannot lie” (10:16) - very good! And I’m sticking with my Niche.
As an engineer I tell you, that TIN coating is hard, really hard. In my book, It should not be possible to get a difference depending how much you put through the burrs. TIN coatings are often used for metal machining tools, to get an even harder surface than the hardened steel it self. So even high altitude light roast, are soft as marshmallows. With that said, if you see that the golden tint are wearing off, that's probably down to burr clinching. Having only seen this video, again as an engineer, I'm surprised by the long wobbly shaft, you would need pretty sturdy bearings to make that work. And really don't by the "self centring" theory. Especially when single dosing, since you here don't have the burrs completely filled with beans at all times. I'm rambling now, but It makes me wonder, If you would have a continuous feed of beans down the grinder, allowing for better self centring. And ground 100 grams, and take out 20g "in the middle" are that ground/grind? different ?
I got your long wobbly shaft right here buddy ;) Just kidding. The shaft could be attached with rag joints depending on how the burrs/bearings are set in the housing. It'd be interesting to see an exploded diagram of this unit. I've always wondered why they use the motor/transmission for setting the inside cone on conical burr sets instead of setting them inside of a bearing with preload vertically. A preload shaft on tapered roller bearings seems the best way to do this and I don't know jack about designing this kind of thing, I've just worked on a lot of different style machines.
@@scottleggejr 😁 Yes, preloaded conical is the way. Or heck, have all the Nerds loose it completely ! Rotate the outer burr instead, held in place by twin conical bearings, driven via a toothed belt, see now I also solved the Torque issue ! Pls send me 5000 USD when implemented 😋
@@stirfryjedi Now let's see it with the build quality/precision/service-life of a weber and we're talking. Although, I'm not a fan of belts. Let's see some swiss timepiece brass gears instead. I'm sure it's a minefield of patents, copyrights, methods, and the like to make any home appliance, which might be holding innovation back for many of us. I've never understood why we don't have 1-2 motors in a home that'll run a mixer, blender, food processor, vacuum, blow dryer, circular saw, reciprocating saw, jigsaw, leaf blower, etc. you could port from device to device to device with a variable transmission to set input/output speeds and an ISO standard of the appliance splines or whatever. I have FAR too many motors in my kitchen alone, all garbage export quality when you dig in to them.
Thanks for the review sprometheus. Really appreciate you staying level headed, not rushing the review or rushing to pass judgment. Considering the pedigree and price of the unit, I have to say I am surprised at the inconsistencies you've shown especially in terms of "driveshaft" alignment (do they have to build them with a bit of give maybe?) and lackluster torque in the lower rpms. If the specs are such that 70% of the rpms are not able to run without snags for the intended brew method then it's truly baffling why they would even be available to choose. I was under the impression WW were not creating products with a main focus on cost cutting but it really seems the issues you've found are pointing to that conclusion. I hope it breaks in for you (somehow), and that you get your money's worth!
Your comment about Weber's response to your complaints matches with a lot of people say about Weber's customer service. I often hear that they're not very helpful and tend to put blame on the customer first. I knew someone who bought their HG-1 and it was way too hard to grind. When he reached out to Weber Workshops, they at first told him he must've done something wrong. After some back and forth, they were able to finally get the issue resolved, but it seems frustrating that a company fetching for such premium prices doesn't do as much QC as one would like and who is quick to point the finger back at the customer. Those points would make me choose Kafatek over Weber for end game grinders as they test each and every grinder before shipping out and seem a lot nicer when communicating with customers.
Thank you so much for your honest review. If I could turn back time definetly I'd not want to be a part of this project and ordered one. I feel ashamed I've back this project since day one. It has been number one disappointed purchase and worst experience I ever had (I still waiting for mine to arrive which not sure when I will get it) As WBWS told everyone he lives in Japan but to me looks like he never learned anything at all from Japan especially service mind and the concept of customer first, including honesty. Take care and thanks again for your honest review 😊 👍 I'm a big fan of your work.
I have been following you for a while and this is one of the most critical reviews you have done! I would be disappointed too with what you got for that price!
Really? Have you seen any of my reviews of Fellow’s recent stuff? Haha Regardless I did my best to make this as balanced as possible while still sharing my personal experiences, so I’m sure it does come off critical, but that’s where I’m at.
Thank you for another outstanding honest review! I am considering purchasing a new grinder. I’m currently using a Eureka Mignon Specialita. I’m thinking about the Niche Zero. I primarily brew milk based espresso drinks with dark roast coffee. In your opinion would I achieve better results with the flat burr Eureka or the conical burr Niche…..
You’re welcome, but I urge those who maybe are concerned they will suffer the same fate to come into it with an open mind. Machines can vary widely, so maybe yours will be perfect out of the box?
Thank you my friend! I appreciate that, and it’s what I aim for. Of course, this was just my personal experience. Curious to hear from others as more land on counters.
Hey Spro, I'm a long time HG-1 user and have the TiN burr set. I can say that it's taken some real time to season them. But it's well worth it imo. At the 8:30 mark of your video, your inner burr looks wonky. Maybe it's the video or the coffee built up on the burr. But it doesn't look right to me. Keep up the great content!
I suppose it depends on why you bought the Key. I bought the HG-2 pre-sale and got it a good while ago. I've had a lot of time to learn how the alignment works and how seasoning differences manifested themselves. But my whole purpose of buying the HG-2 wasn't for any of the fancy stuff or even build quality. I just wanted those big, high-quality burrs that are usually locked up in $2k-3k territory. So, in my view, I still got a good deal because my focus was solely on getting the highest quality conical burr for the cheaper price. Thanks for the review, Spro!
I have a HG2. I believe it is the same as the Key, but hand grinding. I quite like it - it is my go-to for espresso. It is certainly not perfect, but I have had very good shots from it.
I have an HG-2 and Key at the moment, the HG-2 seems to produce a little smoother straight shots but very similar at comparable RPMs. The difference may be due to the HG-2 having more seasoning or perhaps could be due to slight differences in the alignment but I'm hoping it's seasoning. Not much reason to get the Key over the HG-2 if you already got the HG2. Advantages of the KEY are speed of grinding (higher RPM capability) less effort, and it also takes up less space. Higher RPM does add a little more body / intensity maybe, which results in less flavour clarity, but likely adds more fines and makes grind quality technically worse, It might be slightly better for milk drinks but never really is as 'conical' like with high body and low clarity as you might expect from a conical grinder.
I've updated my preference for using the tumbler now, after trying a few different things. I've found the magic tumbler with the METAL lower burr holder (not the plastic ones with wiper arm or WDT paper clip thing attached) I found that works best for me. The paperclip dangling in a different position every time was annoying and usually got hit flinging coffee and bending the WDT tool so it's not great workflow wise for me, so I disregard it, I just use WDT needle tool afterwards, I don't use RDT (water spraying) sometimes with some coffees (especially at higher RPM) it will stick to the edges of the Tumbler, just a little tap and it usually falls down easy. I use a WDT needle tool, you can do it through the bottom opening of the tumbler or use your favorite funnel/collar (I put that underneath the tumbler, it works fine that way) so when you remove the tumbler the funnel is already in place, you do your WDT tap down and you're ready to tamp.
After using my Key for a while I am surprised no one has mentioned it's not easy to determine if the grinder is set for Espresso or Drip like the Niche. Turning the adjustment ring a full turn to go to drip seems like a lot of work. Recently picked up a bag of beans that had a blend of medium and light roast beans. After grinding an Espresso size dose, I could not turn the grind adjustment ring. The burrs were totally stuck together. Even running the grinder at full speed did not free up the adjustment ring. Had to work the outside burr holder back and forth to free u the burrs. UPDATE; The stuck adjustment ring was caused by grinding very fine and slow and not finishing grinding the dose. Running the grinder at maximum speed at the end of the grinding session will clear the burrs so they can be adjusted.
Thanks for the honest review. I've probably ground 5kg of beans through it and it has started to break in but, still hard to remain consistent with volumetrics. Well, it's probably "pre-seasoned" in WW's context, but it's just as painful as when I got the HG1. Everything you've mentioned in your review, it's similar to my experience except the magic tumbler. RDT and removing the WDT wire works best. You'd probably want to just twist and remove the plunger and shake the grounds into the basket. You'll definitely get more grounds sticking to the standard funnel (if you ordered it). The shaft play, now this I would keep monitoring for the next few months. Again, thanks for the review.
Every new grinder that comes out convinces me the Niche is just amazing. What a perfect product design. It's easy to underestimate how good it is but when anyone else does a single dose grinder it just has so many small annoyances.
@@MattHarris85 People seem to really like the workflow of the Niche. i heard somebody wish they could buy the Niche dosing cup. made me curious what's so much better about even the cup. meanwhile I'm considering a Comandante eventually with red Clix, versus a 1zpresso K-max. fur both pour-over/clever and to keep using, eventually, for espresso, as soon as I can afford an espresso maker. meanwhile I'm using a humble mokapot, and warning up milk on stove. it often surprises me how satisfying it turns out. but resting the beans and WDT make a noticable difference even at this low level. one praise for all the virus lockdowns: they really raised the home coffee brewing expertise, I think.
If I designed and brought a product to market, I really admire how well they did the Niche. probably the Comandante too, though I wish it could be faster and have grind setting numbers like the K-Max.
It says a lot about the Niche that all new single dosing grinders get compared to it. For me, its strength is it's utter simplicity (yes I own one, so not completely unbiased). I can't help but think other companies are trying too hard to add features or trying to reinvent the wheel to differentiate themselves and just end up over complicating things. The Weber Key looks like just such a grinder.
Great review! You're the first reviewer that I've heard (to much frustration) compare the Niche and other high end grinders to manual grinders. It would be amazing to get a full review comparing a few of them.
Just ordered my Niche,upgrading from a cuisinart haha. And even though I’m not at a point where I want to spend $2k on a grinder yet, it’s nice to hear the Niche can hang with the big boys. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I’m looking forward to seeing what espresso machine you get next.
I think this is more of a case of a grinder trying to hang with the big boys but failing. I don’t think any other grinder at this price point would have a burr shaft as misaligned as this. That’s not to say the niche doesn’t outperform it’s category though!!
@@dan110024 The Niche doesn't stall, the Niche has the lowest retention out of any electric grinder I've seen, cleanest, best UX, low noise, quick, best grind adjustment mechaism, easy to clean and align... That 5% extra clarity and 1300 bucks dont compensate imo🤪🤪🤪. Monolith conical crushes the key it seems, if i had 2k+ for a grinder.
I upgraded from the cuisinart to an Eureka Mignon Perfetto (for 2 months) while I waited on my niche, and now that I have my niche let me just say, be prepared for worlds better coffee. The grind quality compared to the cuisinart is insane. Can’t believe I put up with mine for 4 years before upgrading.
@@UberInformer dude im so excited to hear that haha. I’ve been a HUGE coffee lover for years and after a long time of making due it’s finally time for me to get real coffee gear.
You missed the thing I hate the most about that workflow. I owned a blind tumbler for a few weeks, and I quickly grew to hate the "cowbell" ringing before I've had any coffee in the morning! :)
Really good review and stands apart as so many reviewers seem to be more fan-boy than pony-boy (what IS a pony- boy anyway? 🤷🏻♂️) I was humming and hawing over the Key for ages, but the fact that they got the launch price wrong (or changed it) so it went from $1500 to $2000) and the amount I would have had to pay in shipping and duties made me decide against in the end, and honest reviews like yours which show real attention to detail and ignore the hype make me think I made the right decision. Thanks for a great (and on point ) video.
Thank you my friend, and I haven’t watched any other reviews for the grinder purely to not let it sway my thoughts. It’s important to me to share my true, unadulterated experiences even if they differ from someone else. Haha I don’t know what a Ponyboy truly is, it’s just from The Outsiders, it’s a character.
Thanks for this review. As someone who also has a LMLM and a niche I wanted to upgrade to a higher end grinder, and was looking forward to your evaluation of the key. Ultimately, I preordered a Monolith MC4, but was debating as to whether the key would be the better option (mc4 only $150 more after Weber air shipping). Your review was helpful in alleviating those concerns, although I truly hope Weber gets you sorted. It seems that the arm coming down into the burrs may be causing the largest issues, but who knows. Perhaps Weber will send you a new unit to test. Anyway, keep up the great content!
You’re welcome and thanks for watching. I’ve heard great things about the Monolith, and maybe I’ll go that route in the future. It seems I’m back in the grinder prowl at the moment looking for the next best option. I really am looking to invest in one and be done. Haha.
@@Sprometheus That’s my goal as well, to have a one and done. I think mono might be the next step up, but their TOTL flat (max) is about the same price as an EG1. James Hoffman reviewed both in his end game showdown and preferred the EG1. From the conical perspective, The mc4 is a duo burr conical, which is a newer design and supposed to have more clarity than a traditional conical. I’m hoping the taste between the niche is apparent to warrant the difference, or I may end up selling my unit when I get it in the summer. Anyway, perhaps contact Kafatek for a review unit. Denis the founder is very responsive and they’re based out of Seattle.
I am on the same boat. Hope the 2Q shipment gets all these issues fixed. I am still thinking about canceling though. Unless WW send out an update to clarify and justify these observations rather than brush off answers. I am not very happy about their replies to people’s questions, not very convincing. We will see. Thanks Sprometheus.
The magic tumbler doesn’t need wdt. Its just that the grinds don’t fall evenly into the basket. i find if i put the tumbler on topic of a portafiler funnel to give it more headspace then it distributes better in the portafiler basket. Then a little shake to even the grounds and tamp.
Great review, for me I have not had any issue with shot time and each dot move the time a couple of seconds and I have not done any seasoning. Are u sure all your trst were in same rpm? ,, from my experience rpm plays a huge role in shot time and even more in taste.
Yes, when testing I only adjust one variable at a time. In this case it was only grind size. But like I've reiterated in other comments, these issues are likely not on every grinder.
Thank you for this video! I’ve been looking forward to this one. I have some questions and comments that I hope you’re willing to indulge. For the light gap shot; interesting. I suppose the “wobble” that you’re observing is a result of the shaft runout + plus error in burr concentricity. It’s remarkable that such a small variation is visible to the human eye. You mentioned at 6:50 that the shaft is slightly askew, do you think that’s causing any of the wobble? I wonder what the burrs in other conical grinders look like when they’re running. Have you been able to take a look at any in your niche or other conical grinders that you’ve used in the past, and if so how do they compare? If the error in burr concentricity is larger than the shaft runout I’d have a hard time blaming Weber. Not that any blame needs to be assigned, I wonder if it actually matters; does it make a difference in coffee quality? Thanks spro ✌️
Mine does the same thing, a very slight wobble is noticeable when light is shinning through, Weber says that's normal like 5 micron runout or whatever their standards are (i forget the details) and that it's just easier to see it vs other grinders (which is true) and I'd argue it's not ideal however, the grinder is working very nicely producing very good results, it is higher clarity and lower body than you'd expect from a large conical burr. I think taste profile is similar the 1zPresso K-plus which is very good as well (i'll need to do more testing / comparison) but from the few comparison shots I've done I noticed the Key gives smoother results, K plus I think has more fines so has more bitterness/harshness.
We have a Weber Key & Decent DE-1 XXL on their way to us & we're super excited. My wife & I prefer rich flavoured dark roasted beans & with the amazing brewing options that are open to us with Decent machine, I'll have the time f my life tweaking Decent XXL to coffee Nirvana.
I’ve had my Key for almost 2 months now. The major complaint/problem that I don’t think can be resolved is that for light to medium light roasts, my grinder stalls when grinding espresso unless the beans are fed in slowly. This is at 70 RPM with The Leam Hammer as one example. For medium dark roasts, turn on the grinder, dump the beans in, wait a for it to grind through. For the lighter roasts, I’m continuously feeding the grinder slowly to keep it from stalling. I’d the chamber fills up it stalls, which appears to contradict the statement about the axle alignment.
I am with you, I am also very frustrated with the stalling on beans. It was one of those features that sold the grinder to me as I really wanted to explore that deeper, but this sort of throws that idea for a loop.
@@rc3443 umm, the burrs are definitely big, but saying they’re too big is an oversimplification and inherently incorrect. The grinder design has been around for ten years as a hand grinder and motorized adaptations have been done. Other grinders like the Option-O HSM use the same burr set. It is pretty clear that the chosen motor for this grinder is not providing enough torque for lighter roast espresso at all available RPMs for some of the shipped grinders for the use case of start the grinder, dump in the dose, and wait for it to finish grinding.
Oufffff, 8:29 shows quite some shaft wobble. A long shaft design + conical burrs are an engineer's nightmare lol. It is destined to wobble and it's a PITA to align. Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts on this! 💪
Yup.. my original HG-One also has a wobbling shaft and no way to align it. Still give pretty decent shots because it does auto-align when beans fill all around. If you really want uniformal grind, your only option is something like the Kafatek Monolith Flat Max, with a short shaft and tight CNC tolerances. Pay double too.
@@AnOtterCoffee nice!! I'm sure you'll be enjoying stellar shots with that machine. I'm waiting for the email when they open up orders for the Max, but still not sure because after shipping and taxes to Europe it will cost me 5000$ might as well buy a German product, the Titus Nautilus, seems pretty similar.
Is it possible to remove the center piece of the tumbler, mount it and just stick a portafilter underneath? With maybe a short pf funnel on top to avoid any mess? Grinding directly this way may improve the wf. I do not have a Key but this might work.
So I did try that. The burrs are wider than my and most funnels, so you need to use a built in funnel, like then tumbler without the bottom. The magic tumbler is too big, so the portafilter fils up and it’s a mess to get it out. That’s why I would recommend the Standard tumbler option, which is essentially a funnel, then you gain a lot of headroom for the portafilter. Then all you need is a low profile magnetic portafilter stand below and you’re in business.
Was the magnet at the bottom of the magic tumbler skewed that way from Day 1? That looks really sloppy. (And I wasn't trying to make a sloped pun until I read that.)
Hey Spro! Thank you so much for this review, I was really looking forward to it. As already stated in your „Shorts“, I also got tons of spray with my Key and I was quite frustrated how inconsistent my shots where. I am probably through 2kg (4.4 pounds) and it is getting better, but it is yet far from perfect. My spindle is straight, but I also can see from the top, that the inner burr is having a tiny play. I guess this is the „self centering“ you mentioned? Additional WDT helps, but you still have to be thoroughly. I will test further and eventually remove the paperclip at all - so it is easier to clean. If you need something that I, or others should test, just reach out. Thank you again!
Hey! Yeah it’s definitely slowly getting better, I’m now at about 20ish lbs, shots are still messy. I am curious to sift the beans soon, I just didn’t have the energy to do it in this video, and the results I was getting more or less spoke for themselves. I have since removed the WDT as it seems like it was more of a pain than an assist. Definitely keep me informed how things progress for you, if you aren’t already following me on IG it’s definitely the best place to share those kinds of things on.
@@Sprometheus I guess I have to create an IG account then. Haha alright … I will blame you for doomscrolling all night long. :P I am also curious for James‘ review, as Kyle also dropped his today. I don’t have the Kruve sifters, but this also popped into my mind. I did some amateur eyeball comparison with my K-Plus. Soooo … I will probably get some cheap beans from the supermarket tomorrow and don’t stop grinding. :-)
Hey, I had a few issues myself but I have a few things to say that may help your experience. I appreciate your thoughts on seasoning anyway, and I think I will also throw some old beans through it. What setting should I use, my standard espresso setting? Or finer or coarser? I won't comment on taste as I am probably not qualified and that is such a subjective subject. Ok to touch on your comment about the WDT and the tumblers: I agree the WDT was a bit eh... but honestly that wasn't a big selling feature for me in the first place, as I only have a 49mm basket machine, and a 54mm basket machine. So I got the standard tumbler and cone as well as the Magic tumbler. I have played around with both and here is what I think you should try so far, don't bother with the WDT wiper, or the Wiper that comes with the Standard. I actually think the grounds come out better without that WDT mod and I have not been getting any visible channeling without doing any WDT at all. Now the wiper that comes with the standard tumbler and cone is actually pretty sweet, and if I was using the Cremina only then I would leave it in, but I am also using a 54mm basket machine, and the dosing funnel just happens to fit the magic tumbler perfect and I wanted to try it. This way, you can swap the cone on and off and go back and forth to either tumbler for awhile until you get an idea of what you prefer without taking off the bottom burr. When you use the cone with no wiper, just be sure to tap the cone a few times before you grab the tumbler, I found this tap not needed if the wiper is installed. OK that brings me to my next point about the bottom burr and not taking it out. I had the same issue you had with the slight wobble light test. Here is what I found, the first time I did this I got lucky I guess and just took it off and put it back on and then it was perfect, no wobble. Later when I removed it again, it took me about 5 or 6 times of loosening the nut, then retighten - check - rinse and repeat. But there must be just a hair of play in that burr shaft and eventually I got it perfect. Now, this isn't fixing the issue, and it would obviously be better if it wasn't required BUT when you get it right it seems to be perfect. The annoying part is that it makes me not want to take off the burr very often, and it will mean I clean it out less than I assumed I would being so easy to remove. But such is life, nothing is perfect. Bottom line, I think the standard tumbler and cone is great, fits 49mm and 58mm, and then you could grind into basically anything, you could actually probably leave the cone wiper without the WDT attached at all times now that I think of it, just wouldn't really do anything if the magic tumbler was on. I may do this. But tighten that burr and make note of the shaft key so you know how you are holding the burr each time you tighten it, I think you will get it perfect. I have also never had mine jam and I have had it on slowest this whole time with nothing darker than medium so far, crazy I haven't heard that... maybe Ill bump up my speed a little to avoid it hahaha. Hope that helps, I agree its not perfect but I think its the best looking and coolest grinder I have had. I also have never used a Niche, but its nice to hear you prefer the taste of the Key anyhow.
thanks for all this info. i have the HG-2 but the design is very similar and a lot of your tumbler info transfers over to the HG-2. in my experience, and bare in mind this is the HG-2 where im grinding whatever rate i can by hand, maybe 1/2 revolution per second. nevertheless, in my experience, the magic tumbler WDT helped more with collecting the grounds nicely and uniformly into the tumbler. once they fall into the basket upon lifting the stopper, true WDT is still prudent (at least in my experience). the magic tumbler also seemed to keep my mess of grounds more contained than the standard tumbler, but not by much. one last thing around alignment and swapping wipers: perhaps the HG2 is different enough but I never had to take out the bottom burr, i just had to lay grinder horizontal and unscrew a bottom concentric bolt.
Still looking forward to getting my Key... Considering here in Aus it's almost the same price as a niche the key seems so much higher end, and hopefully with a bit of seasoning it will be the last grinder I need to buy!
The burrs wobbling from the shaft is a problem even on my key too. It absolutely doesn't sound like it was supposed to be this way so the beans self centering them is a lame excuse. Do you hear a noise when burrs are empty and on tight setting?
Yes I got noise and what seems friction sound after grinding on a high speed. I asked weber and told me that the key wasn’t designed to grind always on high speed. If you lower down to low speed below 70 RPM, you’ll get stalling.
Very nice, detailed review. Thirty pounds of coffee is a years supply for me lol. The burrs and build quality look amazing, sorry to hear it is not as perfect in the cup. My consumption of coffee is low enough that I can easily hand grind all my beans, so I will stick with that. I do secretly want a Niche, but unwilling to spend for it.
Thanks Jaime! And yeah, 30lbs is a massive amount of coffee, and likely your average persons yearly amount. As a roaster I have the fortunate ability yo stockpile old beans for occasions like this.
I'm averaging using upwards of 100 lbs. yearly for espresso only and hand grind 95% of the time. Still find it hilarious there is so much fuss over the electric grinder fad when a quality hand grinder is all one really needs for ANY home use.
I tried it for a month and unsatisfied. Very week motor which doesn’t give you all options with daily stalling not only with light but also with medium roasts at 70 RPM or less. Noisy but well functioning motor is better than quite but malfunctioning one.
Just received mine today - tried about 8 shots before I retired for the night. I had major channeling issues with each one (spraying and split streaming like crazy). At each stage, I made the grind finer and finer to reach my time window (27-32 sec) - with some sacrificial beans ground in between. I too am coming from a Niche and I was able to get it dialed in with little effort. My work flow on my Niche is: grind > top PF with funnel > invert grinds into PF > wdt > tap PF on counter > leveling tool > pull shot. With the weber standard tumbler, I tried with and without WDT and found no difference in channeling. I plan on trying again once I get my hands on more beans, but so far I'm not too happy about it.
Long time HG-1 owner, still waiting for the key as it's very delayed. Has anyone seen the orbit - an Acaia and WW collaboration? 63MM flat burrs. Looks like a mini me version of the EG-1. Also curious what people think of the lagom p-64?
The ceado e37z-hero had this grinder and others like it beat by almost a 5yr head start. Although 83mm flat burr, coated burrs, and adjustable rpm from 600 to 1500. The trade off is it $5000 to $6000 price tage
Do you think the Mk 2 would change your opinion on the Key (since it seems to address many issues like power, alignment, etc)? Or, do you think you'd feel more or less the same?
I don't own a key but I have used a friend's and loved everything about it. From the aesthetic to the workflow to the coffee that it produced. Granted, I already use a magic tumbler, rdt and leveler so for me it felt like a tailored suit. It was all second nature. The issue with light roast @ low rpm issue would never affect me. You can spec a larger motor but then the price of an already expensive grinder grows. It's hard to imagine it as the deciding factor in many people's decision making process but I suppose its worth mention. The variance in one grind step is the most concerning complaint but its worth noting others have done the same one step test without the wide variance you got. Perhaps something was knocked out of place in shipping or maybe it just needed a bit more time. I know that the factory is very thorough about checking every unit but mistakes can happen especially with the earliest units. If that was the case it's very unfortunate, but it seems like you weren't in love with the rest of the experience so perhaps it wasn't meant to be. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to spend even half what a Key costs on a grinder but it seems to me at that point its a lot like buying hifi. Some want vintage tube amps and some want vintage solid state amps and still others want the newest state of the art equipment. You can argue about what sounds the best the same way you can argue about which grinder produces the best coffee but it's very subjective. In the end the only thing that matters is how the experience connects to the individual.
for that price I would expect better TBH, it's also a reminder that the Niche Zero is really tough to beat. For my money I would look for a used Mazzer Robur and convert it to single doser usage.
Thanks for the review. I was considering the Key as it seemed like a forgiving grinder for espresso. I’ll stick with the P64 for filter and EG1 with core burrs then.
Thanks for the review. Still torn between the niche and the key but from your review it seems tough to justify the extra spent. You said RDT was not optional for the key, what about the niche? Did you also have to break in the niche with 20pound of coffee? Sorry I do realise these are more niche questions but I m sure I m not the only one considering these two grinders.
Damn, but I am glad I went with the Kafatek monolinth instead of the Key. Granted the key is readily available, unlike the monolith which you have to wait for half the year to arrive, but once it does its basically set it and forget it.
Same. Every review video for other grinders compare with the Niche and every time I don't see any reason to upgrade. If you're lucky enough to get one, it's hopefully the last grinder you'll ever need.
Same here. Considering I'm no coffee expert, I'm very happy that I ended up getting the Niche and the Bezzera BZ13 espresso machine. They seem to be a perfect pairing for my budget and level of interest in making good espresso.
Now you have me on the fence. I have one on pre-order, but this review has me second guessing my decision. I recently got an Atom 75 two months ago and have finally gotten the hang of it and it's cup profile after coming from a Sette 270WI. I don't know what to do at this point. I was hoping this would be my first foray into very high-end home espresso grinders.
Essentially this was my first foray into very high end grinders. I was thinking this was the last grinder I’d ever buy. That was actually the working title draft for this video before I actually used it. I’m sure the issues that mine have aren’t on every grinder, so try not to get too down on it before you use it. Time will tell.
@@Sprometheus that's true. But I can't help but think about them considering the price. Other grinders like the Wug² have my attention - the ability to swap between conical and flat burrs in one grinder. Also, when can I order more beans? Loved the last two bags I got! Cheers!
I’m really happy with mine compared to my atom. Both are great grinders but mine is very consistent and the wife loves that it doesn’t look like crap in the kitchen. Definitely a conversation piece.
Lolll that wobble in the burrs!!! 100% that’s your inconsistency issue. And it’s so obvious when you look up at it around 8:50. The fact you can easily see it on camera without even trying to look shows how bad it is.
This video was very educational and honest. Too many coffee channels kiss ass but your channel goes to the top of believability. I would be very interested to see what you think of the Kafatek MC4. I own one so if you ever pass through NYC, you're welcome to take it through its paces.
Thank you David, and that’s the best possible comment/compliment I could receive. I really pride myself on providing a true and honest review of my personal experiences, I’m sure it’s not going to make me friends at Weber, but in the end this is channel is for my fellow coffee lovers, not the manufacturers and brands.
@@Sprometheus Yes, we viewers see the risk you're taking and appreciate it. Unfortunately, honesty has consequences. Of course, we all respect James Hoffmann but he beats around the bush too much. For now on I will come to this channel to see unvarnished truth. Keep it real.
Great Video. I think a Helor 106 Hand Grinder with a Variable Speed Drill on a Stand would be a more flexible and better value for the money than the Key. I recently received a Kinu M47 Classic and pulling some great shots on my 2021 Olympia Cremina with medium roast beans. I had a Eureka Mignon Oro Single Doser but had to return it back to the Dealer after 3 weeks of use due to crazy vibration and noise levels. I am beginning to see a pattern with Grinder Manufacturers in the espresso coffee world getting on the 'single dose' band wagon to make a few bucks with little advantages to the Consumer even when spending large some of money on say a Weber Key, EG-1, HG-1 & HG-2 or a Ceado e37z Hero etc. Grinder.
Not to mention that the Helor 106 has insane/lifelong build quality and gives top notch performance in function and in the demitasse. So impressed with mine it will be the last I'll ever need/own. My beast of an electric sits by watching, waiting and hoping to be used again another day.
maybe im dumb but whats the point in measuring the extraction as part of the brewing process for the grinder, when you should be able to change the extraction by manipulating variables other than what grinder youre using
For espresso, the general rule of thumb is to have an extract time of 25-30 seconds with a 1:2 - 1:2.5 bean to extraction weight, and minor modification to dial the acidity/boldness. Tuning the grind size is by far the most common and standard way to archive that. If the minimal change step cause an extract time to change from 26 sec to 40 sec, it means the "other variables" I need to change is either the bean weight by up/down dose of 1/5, or changing the pressure of the pump etc. which both have very serious impact on the resulting espresso.
Thanks for the review! I’ll be sticking to my Niche for sure. Hard to justify that price tag if performance is similar and workflow is more of a hastle
@@Sprometheus it is quite impressive how the Niche continues to hold its ground in the mid range grinder tier. And that is very true. Plus I really don’t see myself abandoning those two grinders any time soon
Now I have not used the key, but what you write resemble allot of the two big conical I did own, a conical just uses less precise burrs that has a noticeable wider distribution, this is especially true for the big mazzer robur burrs, burrs that are well known for this. Reality is that conical is a nightmare to align just somewhat acceptable especially compared to the relatively straightforward task aligning of flats, so alignment is always a challenge on these, so I’m not overly chocked you see this, as this was a well known issue for years before the dawn of SD grinders. Also I always found an aligned flat to be far more predictable when making grind changes. I honestly never seen proof of conical really living up to being adjusted within a given micron number, no matter what conical grinder electric or hand it’s just not the reality I seen, for it to really work like that it would need an alignment I never seen and burrs machined to far higher precision like we actually see on flats, even the Kafatek Monolith had a very wide distribution in all test I seen, there is just no way you can adjust by micron when something isn’t more precise then that. Obviously you should not see 19g of difference with so small changes, so from my experience that is a bad misalignment I got the exact same issue when the things wasn’t aligned good enough, running the burrs in might make it less pronounced but I will be surprised if it solves it.
Thing is some flats just don't deliver like a quality conical can. Some tend to go on and on about certain flats, but I've strayed away from them and prefer conical especially for the heavy texture (espresso) that I get from conicals. Flats just can't touch that regardless of the configuration. Of course there is no right/wrong, just what works for each enthusiast, but the conical bashing is a bit much these days. Also find it damn hilarious how scientific some try to be and miss the entire point... enjoying the espresso instead of nitpicking the slightest details that mean little.
@@commandodude333 I don’t really see it as bashing, it’s the reality that conical is harder to align, deliver a wider distribution, is less precisely machined, are built to lower quality of lower grated steel, the three last thing also apply for traditional flat Italian made espresso burrs just to get that clear. Reality is you get what you pay for, you might like the espresso/coffee from these, no one is against that or even argue against that and wasn’t really my point. In regards to taste it dos sounds like your into darker style that might explain you preferences for conical. I like very like very light roasts for that neither conical nor espresso flat really showcase the full flavour potential.
@@mikni4069 I get where you're coming from and light roast/modern flats equals NO texture. Might suit some people, but a waste to others like myself. 'Espresso' some are extracting these days is barely more than weak ass pourover. Also, trying to be a bit scientific with trying to measure variables in microns is a bit much as that equals nothing useful in the demitasse. Simply satisfies the inner coffee nerd and not much else.
… so many years? The Indiegogo campaign was started in 2017 :) Not that I dislike the NZ, have one. The HG-1 from 2015 is essentially the same design as the Key grinder (minus the motor).
@@zixzysm 4.5 years is pretty decent right for the competition to pull it's clutch up? Almost every Niche killer has 1-2 major flaws that could've logically ended at ideation stage.
@@subbieda But the Key was never a “Niche killer”. I don’t know where people get that. The Key is built as a direct development of their HG-1/HG-2. Which is a lot older than the Niche.
I'm not sure I understand. If the extraction is lower, yet there less fines (I suspect the peak isn't lower as Niche's) you should push for a finer grind to achieve a higher extraction, despite the time the shot takes? Not hatin', askin'. Was a shot a touch finer with a touch higher extraction bitter and/or astringent? How come, if there's less fines? On paper this grinder, having less fines and less texture, should be able to achieve better extraction.
If a step finer makes it astringent and bitter, it makes the grinder useless as it doesn't have enough flexibility for shots and (I understand) it aims for spro, not drips.
I think if I’m someone already ready to drop $2k on a Key grinder I’d rather go for the full-fat EG-1. Yes it’s double the price, but is also renowned and established-and doesn’t come with compromises or growing pains that you mentioned. Otherwise I’d save a stimmy and get the Niche. (Anything would be an upgrade from my breville grinder lol) Thanks for always being honest!
Almost 3 times the price of the Niche. Also, I'm a machinist, millwright and Marine Engineer. Stating that the burr is self centering is a crock. A shaft that long requires support in the form of a bearing. I predict a close look at grind size will show wild inconsistencies especially oncoarser settings. The beans shouldn't have the job of self centering the burrs LoL 😕 I'm happy with my Niche, but thanks.
It seems like different backers are getting different results. I wonder if they’re having issues with quality control? You mentioned they were quick to blame the mazzer burrs. That’s incredibly poor business practice. Would you mind expanding on that?
Yeah, I’m sure there are some mixed results. They never outright said it’s Mazzer’s fault, but when explaining my issues they reiterated over and over that Weber’s QC standards are higher (30 micron) versus Mazzer’s (60 micron) which in my mind feels like a brush off of taking responsibility.
@@Sprometheus can you elaborate a little more on this? It sounds like they are explaining the issues and not casting blame. So it’s good to know if that’s the situation. I have had my key for a month or so and love it so far. Way better than my atom 75 and looks awesome as well! Hopefully they can help resolve all your issues since you are keeping it.
Indigogo campaigns never turn out as advertised. I have backed 4 projects from indigogo - 3/4 never arrived and the other one was significantly different to described. I will never back a project again.
Same here. Also, while I didn't have a problem with the delays or WW's communication, the gaslighting in some responses from Indiegogo reps to what were IMO very reasonable questions from backers (back when IGG were replying to comments directly) really put me off as well. I'd be happy to buy directly from WW in future but definitely won't be backing any IGG campaigns.
That’s the problem with the Versalab style of grinder. The unsupported shaft must be super stiff to resist the unequal forces from grinding. Weber claiming that it self centres from equal bean pressure . . . Hmmmm
Damn I’m starting to think if I should of just bought the eg1 now or just stick with my niche I was gonna sell it when this came but I might just keep it and if it’s really that bad I’ll sell it n just get the eg1 u guess
I used this grinder after a period of 4 months and I faced many problems. On low rpm like 70 rpm or less with Light to medium roast coffee stopped suddenly the burr hard to rotate. If the grinder does not turned off from the main switch without using above 3 hours , and when you want to use it, it will not work.
Great review - given your issues, I’d be having buyer’s remorse also. 2k is a significant step up from the usual suspects, and far too many “issues” for me to consider this.
Non biased, and to the point. All the stuff you need to know, with no filler. Well done.
Your videos and integrity with the truth speaks volumes, greatly appreciated, superbly done
Thank you for the honest Review and for the things we should pay attention to whenever we see one in the wild.
Cheers buddy
Thank you for this honest review, you highlighted some details which other reviewers did not and therefore facilitated an informed decision for me.
thanks for the honest review & level headed analysis!
appreciate it a lot.
I've not had a chance to see this review, however, after watching it-I don't understand why Weber came at you the way they did. I felt like this was a fair, honest, personal review where you raised valid concerns and critiques.
Thank you for the detailed, honest review. I would not be nearly as positive if it had been my $2000.
You’re welcome, and honestly, happy to do it. I was very hopeful about this grinder being the last one I’ll ever buy, not quite as hopeful now. Thanks for watching!
For 2k this is borderline broken.
Hand grinder for 2000 lol
I just watched this for the second time and just noticed the Sir Mix-a-Lot line you snuck in there - “it’s a big but and I cannot lie” (10:16) - very good! And I’m sticking with my Niche.
As an engineer I tell you, that TIN coating is hard, really hard.
In my book, It should not be possible to get a difference depending how much you put through the burrs.
TIN coatings are often used for metal machining tools, to get an even harder surface than the hardened steel it self.
So even high altitude light roast, are soft as marshmallows.
With that said, if you see that the golden tint are wearing off, that's probably down to burr clinching.
Having only seen this video, again as an engineer, I'm surprised by the long wobbly shaft, you would need pretty sturdy bearings to make that work.
And really don't by the "self centring" theory.
Especially when single dosing, since you here don't have the burrs completely filled with beans at all times.
I'm rambling now, but It makes me wonder, If you would have a continuous feed of beans down the grinder, allowing for better self centring.
And ground 100 grams, and take out 20g "in the middle" are that ground/grind? different ?
I got your long wobbly shaft right here buddy ;) Just kidding. The shaft could be attached with rag joints depending on how the burrs/bearings are set in the housing. It'd be interesting to see an exploded diagram of this unit. I've always wondered why they use the motor/transmission for setting the inside cone on conical burr sets instead of setting them inside of a bearing with preload vertically. A preload shaft on tapered roller bearings seems the best way to do this and I don't know jack about designing this kind of thing, I've just worked on a lot of different style machines.
@@scottleggejr 😁 Yes, preloaded conical is the way.
Or heck, have all the Nerds loose it completely !
Rotate the outer burr instead, held in place by twin conical bearings, driven via a toothed belt, see now I also solved the Torque issue !
Pls send me 5000 USD when implemented 😋
@@daniel635biturbo Like the Baratza Sette? lol
@@stirfryjedi Apparently yes, I've missed that one 🙂
@@stirfryjedi Now let's see it with the build quality/precision/service-life of a weber and we're talking. Although, I'm not a fan of belts. Let's see some swiss timepiece brass gears instead. I'm sure it's a minefield of patents, copyrights, methods, and the like to make any home appliance, which might be holding innovation back for many of us. I've never understood why we don't have 1-2 motors in a home that'll run a mixer, blender, food processor, vacuum, blow dryer, circular saw, reciprocating saw, jigsaw, leaf blower, etc. you could port from device to device to device with a variable transmission to set input/output speeds and an ISO standard of the appliance splines or whatever. I have FAR too many motors in my kitchen alone, all garbage export quality when you dig in to them.
Thank you for your frankness. There is no doubt that it is a valuable piece, but it is not without some impurities and as always big thank you 😊 🌹
Great review, I appreciate your honesty. Rare in todays commercial styled reviews.
Thanks for the review sprometheus. Really appreciate you staying level headed, not rushing the review or rushing to pass judgment.
Considering the pedigree and price of the unit, I have to say I am surprised at the inconsistencies you've shown especially in terms of "driveshaft" alignment (do they have to build them with a bit of give maybe?) and lackluster torque in the lower rpms.
If the specs are such that 70% of the rpms are not able to run without snags for the intended brew method then it's truly baffling why they would even be available to choose.
I was under the impression WW were not creating products with a main focus on cost cutting but it really seems the issues you've found are pointing to that conclusion.
I hope it breaks in for you (somehow), and that you get your money's worth!
Your comment about Weber's response to your complaints matches with a lot of people say about Weber's customer service. I often hear that they're not very helpful and tend to put blame on the customer first. I knew someone who bought their HG-1 and it was way too hard to grind. When he reached out to Weber Workshops, they at first told him he must've done something wrong. After some back and forth, they were able to finally get the issue resolved, but it seems frustrating that a company fetching for such premium prices doesn't do as much QC as one would like and who is quick to point the finger back at the customer. Those points would make me choose Kafatek over Weber for end game grinders as they test each and every grinder before shipping out and seem a lot nicer when communicating with customers.
I wouldn't waste time/$ on anything from Weber as it's clearly more about form than actual usable/consistent function.
the customer service of weber workshop was really bad with the way they communicated, very dissapointed with them on this.
Thank you so much for your honest review. If I could turn back time definetly I'd not want to be a part of this project and ordered one. I feel ashamed I've back this project since day one. It has been number one disappointed purchase and worst experience I ever had (I still waiting for mine to arrive which not sure when I will get it) As WBWS told everyone he lives in Japan but to me looks like he never learned anything at all from Japan especially service mind and the concept of customer first, including honesty. Take care and thanks again for your honest review 😊 👍 I'm a big fan of your work.
I have been following you for a while and this is one of the most critical reviews you have done! I would be disappointed too with what you got for that price!
Really? Have you seen any of my reviews of Fellow’s recent stuff? Haha
Regardless I did my best to make this as balanced as possible while still sharing my personal experiences, so I’m sure it does come off critical, but that’s where I’m at.
Thank you for another outstanding honest review! I am considering purchasing a new grinder. I’m currently using a Eureka Mignon Specialita. I’m thinking about the Niche Zero. I primarily brew milk based espresso drinks with dark roast coffee. In your opinion would I achieve better results with the flat burr Eureka or the conical burr Niche…..
Thanks for this fair and honest review, I'm gutted I backed this now - but fingers crossed they fix some of this with the sea-shipment of grinders.
You’re welcome, but I urge those who maybe are concerned they will suffer the same fate to come into it with an open mind. Machines can vary widely, so maybe yours will be perfect out of the box?
I like my Key grinder and the espresso it makes, but it’s not perfect.
If you want honesty, you come here! Love the video and your take on the Key!
Thank you my friend! I appreciate that, and it’s what I aim for. Of course, this was just my personal experience. Curious to hear from others as more land on counters.
Hey Spro, I'm a long time HG-1 user and have the TiN burr set. I can say that it's taken some real time to season them. But it's well worth it imo. At the 8:30 mark of your video, your inner burr looks wonky. Maybe it's the video or the coffee built up on the burr. But it doesn't look right to me. Keep up the great content!
I used KEY around 1 month 2 kg coffee passed.I loved brightness that KEY provided exchange with texture and body.
I suppose it depends on why you bought the Key. I bought the HG-2 pre-sale and got it a good while ago. I've had a lot of time to learn how the alignment works and how seasoning differences manifested themselves. But my whole purpose of buying the HG-2 wasn't for any of the fancy stuff or even build quality. I just wanted those big, high-quality burrs that are usually locked up in $2k-3k territory. So, in my view, I still got a good deal because my focus was solely on getting the highest quality conical burr for the cheaper price.
Thanks for the review, Spro!
I have a HG2. I believe it is the same as the Key, but hand grinding. I quite like it - it is my go-to for espresso. It is certainly not perfect, but I have had very good shots from it.
I have an HG-2 and Key at the moment, the HG-2 seems to produce a little smoother straight shots but very similar at comparable RPMs. The difference may be due to the HG-2 having more seasoning or perhaps could be due to slight differences in the alignment but I'm hoping it's seasoning.
Not much reason to get the Key over the HG-2 if you already got the HG2. Advantages of the KEY are speed of grinding (higher RPM capability) less effort, and it also takes up less space. Higher RPM does add a little more body / intensity maybe, which results in less flavour clarity, but likely adds more fines and makes grind quality technically worse, It might be slightly better for milk drinks but never really is as 'conical' like with high body and low clarity as you might expect from a conical grinder.
I've updated my preference for using the tumbler now, after trying a few different things.
I've found the magic tumbler with the METAL lower burr holder (not the plastic ones with wiper arm or WDT paper clip thing attached) I found that works best for me. The paperclip dangling in a different position every time was annoying and usually got hit flinging coffee and bending the WDT tool so it's not great workflow wise for me, so I disregard it, I just use WDT needle tool afterwards, I don't use RDT (water spraying) sometimes with some coffees (especially at higher RPM) it will stick to the edges of the Tumbler, just a little tap and it usually falls down easy. I use a WDT needle tool, you can do it through the bottom opening of the tumbler or use your favorite funnel/collar (I put that underneath the tumbler, it works fine that way) so when you remove the tumbler the funnel is already in place, you do your WDT tap down and you're ready to tamp.
Thank you for your review.
After using my Key for a while I am surprised no one has mentioned it's not easy to determine if the grinder is set for Espresso or Drip like the Niche. Turning the adjustment ring a full turn to go to drip seems like a lot of work. Recently picked up a bag of beans that had a blend of medium and light roast beans. After grinding an Espresso size dose, I could not turn the grind adjustment ring. The burrs were totally stuck together. Even running the grinder at full speed did not free up the adjustment ring. Had to work the outside burr holder back and forth to free u the burrs.
UPDATE; The stuck adjustment ring was caused by grinding very fine and slow and not finishing grinding the dose. Running the grinder at maximum speed at the end of the grinding session will clear the burrs so they can be adjusted.
I'm working on building a Bunnzilla - hoping that 50 lb beast will be my end game! Great review, appreciate your thoughts on ease and workflow.
Thanks for the honest review. I've probably ground 5kg of beans through it and it has started to break in but, still hard to remain consistent with volumetrics. Well, it's probably "pre-seasoned" in WW's context, but it's just as painful as when I got the HG1.
Everything you've mentioned in your review, it's similar to my experience except the magic tumbler. RDT and removing the WDT wire works best. You'd probably want to just twist and remove the plunger and shake the grounds into the basket. You'll definitely get more grounds sticking to the standard funnel (if you ordered it).
The shaft play, now this I would keep monitoring for the next few months. Again, thanks for the review.
Every new grinder that comes out convinces me the Niche is just amazing. What a perfect product design. It's easy to underestimate how good it is but when anyone else does a single dose grinder it just has so many small annoyances.
Probably right but I wish someone would make the 'flat burr Niche'
@@MattHarris85 for espresso or more for pour over/ clever?
@@aryehh7128 thinking for espresso particularly. Baratza Forte is probably the closest thing right now but single dosing could be improved
@@MattHarris85 People seem to really like the workflow of the Niche. i heard somebody wish they could buy the Niche dosing cup. made me curious what's so much better about even the cup.
meanwhile I'm considering a Comandante eventually with red Clix, versus a 1zpresso K-max. fur both pour-over/clever and to keep using, eventually, for espresso, as soon as I can afford an espresso maker.
meanwhile I'm using a humble mokapot, and warning up milk on stove. it often surprises me how satisfying it turns out.
but resting the beans and WDT make a noticable difference even at this low level.
one praise for all the virus lockdowns: they really raised the home coffee brewing expertise, I think.
If I designed and brought a product to market, I really admire how well they did the Niche. probably the Comandante too, though I wish it could be faster and have grind setting numbers like the K-Max.
It says a lot about the Niche that all new single dosing grinders get compared to it. For me, its strength is it's utter simplicity (yes I own one, so not completely unbiased). I can't help but think other companies are trying too hard to add features or trying to reinvent the wheel to differentiate themselves and just end up over complicating things. The Weber Key looks like just such a grinder.
Great review as ever, reinforced my lack of buyers remorse for my Niche!
The Niche truly has set a standard that for me, and many others, that’s hard to beat.
Really good video, thank you
Great review! You're the first reviewer that I've heard (to much frustration) compare the Niche and other high end grinders to manual grinders. It would be amazing to get a full review comparing a few of them.
Hoffman used the niche as a control in his ultimate grinder test
Just ordered my Niche,upgrading from a cuisinart haha. And even though I’m not at a point where I want to spend $2k on a grinder yet, it’s nice to hear the Niche can hang with the big boys.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I’m looking forward to seeing what espresso machine you get next.
I think this is more of a case of a grinder trying to hang with the big boys but failing. I don’t think any other grinder at this price point would have a burr shaft as misaligned as this.
That’s not to say the niche doesn’t outperform it’s category though!!
@@dan110024 The Niche doesn't stall, the Niche has the lowest retention out of any electric grinder I've seen, cleanest, best UX, low noise, quick, best grind adjustment mechaism, easy to clean and align... That 5% extra clarity and 1300 bucks dont compensate imo🤪🤪🤪. Monolith conical crushes the key it seems, if i had 2k+ for a grinder.
I upgraded from the cuisinart to an Eureka Mignon Perfetto (for 2 months) while I waited on my niche, and now that I have my niche let me just say, be prepared for worlds better coffee. The grind quality compared to the cuisinart is insane. Can’t believe I put up with mine for 4 years before upgrading.
@@UberInformer dude im so excited to hear that haha. I’ve been a HUGE coffee lover for years and after a long time of making due it’s finally time for me to get real coffee gear.
That was a smart choice I have a niche it's amazing
I received 1 and I very enjoy my KEY with espresso grinding. Difference taste profile from Niche Zero .
Thanks heaps for this exhausting comparison. You are helping some much to the coffee community.
Thanks again!
Looking forward to a part 3 !!!! Lol tea time 🫖
You missed the thing I hate the most about that workflow. I owned a blind tumbler for a few weeks, and I quickly grew to hate the "cowbell" ringing before I've had any coffee in the morning! :)
Ouch. Staying away from this one. 2k is a lot to pay to deal with all those issues imo. Looking forward to that part 3! Thanks for the vid
Really good review and stands apart as so many reviewers seem to be more fan-boy than pony-boy (what IS a pony- boy anyway? 🤷🏻♂️)
I was humming and hawing over the Key for ages, but the fact that they got the launch price wrong (or changed it) so it went from $1500 to $2000) and the amount I would have had to pay in shipping and duties made me decide against in the end, and honest reviews like yours which show real attention to detail and ignore the hype make me think I made the right decision.
Thanks for a great (and on point ) video.
Thank you my friend, and I haven’t watched any other reviews for the grinder purely to not let it sway my thoughts. It’s important to me to share my true, unadulterated experiences even if they differ from someone else.
Haha I don’t know what a Ponyboy truly is, it’s just from The Outsiders, it’s a character.
Stay gold pony boi
Thanks for this review. As someone who also has a LMLM and a niche I wanted to upgrade to a higher end grinder, and was looking forward to your evaluation of the key. Ultimately, I preordered a Monolith MC4, but was debating as to whether the key would be the better option (mc4 only $150 more after Weber air shipping). Your review was helpful in alleviating those concerns, although I truly hope Weber gets you sorted. It seems that the arm coming down into the burrs may be causing the largest issues, but who knows. Perhaps Weber will send you a new unit to test.
Anyway, keep up the great content!
You’re welcome and thanks for watching.
I’ve heard great things about the Monolith, and maybe I’ll go that route in the future. It seems I’m back in the grinder prowl at the moment looking for the next best option. I really am looking to invest in one and be done. Haha.
@@Sprometheus That’s my goal as well, to have a one and done. I think mono might be the next step up, but their TOTL flat (max) is about the same price as an EG1. James Hoffman reviewed both in his end game showdown and preferred the EG1.
From the conical perspective, The mc4 is a duo burr conical, which is a newer design and supposed to have more clarity than a traditional conical. I’m hoping the taste between the niche is apparent to warrant the difference, or I may end up selling my unit when I get it in the summer.
Anyway, perhaps contact Kafatek for a review unit. Denis the founder is very responsive and they’re based out of Seattle.
@@Sprometheus you can try the grinder brand Molar, it is from taiwan.
The Key is great, but from what I hear the Monolith MC4 is even better, if you can actually get it! I'd love to compare the two directly one day.
Glad I'm waiting for the sea shipment for mine now. Hopefully they iron out that last few % on later units.
Who knows, maybe I got a bunk grinder, but they seem certain the issues I’m experiencing aren’t permanent or pervasive.
I am on the same boat. Hope the 2Q shipment gets all these issues fixed. I am still thinking about canceling though. Unless WW send out an update to clarify and justify these observations rather than brush off answers. I am not very happy about their replies to people’s questions, not very convincing. We will see. Thanks Sprometheus.
The magic tumbler doesn’t need wdt. Its just that the grinds don’t fall evenly into the basket. i find if i put the tumbler on topic of a portafiler funnel to give it more headspace then it distributes better in the portafiler basket. Then a little shake to even the grounds and tamp.
I trust you and I believe that your clarity and lack of corporate courtesy is the reason for my trust in you
Great review, for me I have not had any issue with shot time and each dot move the time a couple of seconds and I have not done any seasoning. Are u sure all your trst were in same rpm? ,, from my experience rpm plays a huge role in shot time and even more in taste.
Yes, when testing I only adjust one variable at a time. In this case it was only grind size. But like I've reiterated in other comments, these issues are likely not on every grinder.
Thank you for this video! I’ve been looking forward to this one. I have some questions and comments that I hope you’re willing to indulge.
For the light gap shot; interesting. I suppose the “wobble” that you’re observing is a result of the shaft runout + plus error in burr concentricity. It’s remarkable that such a small variation is visible to the human eye.
You mentioned at 6:50 that the shaft is slightly askew, do you think that’s causing any of the wobble?
I wonder what the burrs in other conical grinders look like when they’re running. Have you been able to take a look at any in your niche or other conical grinders that you’ve used in the past, and if so how do they compare?
If the error in burr concentricity is larger than the shaft runout I’d have a hard time blaming Weber.
Not that any blame needs to be assigned, I wonder if it actually matters; does it make a difference in coffee quality?
Thanks spro ✌️
Mine does the same thing, a very slight wobble is noticeable when light is shinning through, Weber says that's normal like 5 micron runout or whatever their standards are (i forget the details) and that it's just easier to see it vs other grinders (which is true) and I'd argue it's not ideal however, the grinder is working very nicely producing very good results, it is higher clarity and lower body than you'd expect from a large conical burr.
I think taste profile is similar the 1zPresso K-plus which is very good as well (i'll need to do more testing / comparison) but from the few comparison shots I've done I noticed the Key gives smoother results, K plus I think has more fines so has more bitterness/harshness.
We have a Weber Key & Decent DE-1 XXL on their way to us & we're super excited.
My wife & I prefer rich flavoured dark roasted beans & with the amazing brewing options that are open to us with Decent machine, I'll have the time f my life tweaking Decent XXL to coffee Nirvana.
I’ve had my Key for almost 2 months now. The major complaint/problem that I don’t think can be resolved is that for light to medium light roasts, my grinder stalls when grinding espresso unless the beans are fed in slowly. This is at 70 RPM with The Leam Hammer as one example. For medium dark roasts, turn on the grinder, dump the beans in, wait a for it to grind through. For the lighter roasts, I’m continuously feeding the grinder slowly to keep it from stalling. I’d the chamber fills up it stalls, which appears to contradict the statement about the axle alignment.
Typo: I’d => If
I am with you, I am also very frustrated with the stalling on beans. It was one of those features that sold the grinder to me as I really wanted to explore that deeper, but this sort of throws that idea for a loop.
burr is too big, so it appears the the motorr does not have enough torque to pair with, I guess it's not always bigger is better.
@@rc3443 umm, the burrs are definitely big, but saying they’re too big is an oversimplification and inherently incorrect. The grinder design has been around for ten years as a hand grinder and motorized adaptations have been done. Other grinders like the Option-O HSM use the same burr set.
It is pretty clear that the chosen motor for this grinder is not providing enough torque for lighter roast espresso at all available RPMs for some of the shipped grinders for the use case of start the grinder, dump in the dose, and wait for it to finish grinding.
The EG1 also has an incorrect spec motor and stalls with some burrs. This company is a scam really, check the playlist on my profile.
Oufffff, 8:29 shows quite some shaft wobble. A long shaft design + conical burrs are an engineer's nightmare lol. It is destined to wobble and it's a PITA to align. Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts on this! 💪
Yeah, it seems only the outer burrs are alignable. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts.
Yup.. my original HG-One also has a wobbling shaft and no way to align it. Still give pretty decent shots because it does auto-align when beans fill all around. If you really want uniformal grind, your only option is something like the Kafatek Monolith Flat Max, with a short shaft and tight CNC tolerances. Pay double too.
@@karoo_bushman6880 I secured a preorder on the Monolith MC4 last week 👀🤓
@@AnOtterCoffee nice!! I'm sure you'll be enjoying stellar shots with that machine. I'm waiting for the email when they open up orders for the Max, but still not sure because after shipping and taxes to Europe it will cost me 5000$ might as well buy a German product, the Titus Nautilus, seems pretty similar.
@@karoo_bushman6880 yeah, the Nautilus seems like a tank. Why not a Lagom P100?
Nice review as usual. DF next!
Is it possible to remove the center piece of the tumbler, mount it and just stick a portafilter underneath? With maybe a short pf funnel on top to avoid any mess? Grinding directly this way may improve the wf. I do not have a Key but this might work.
So I did try that. The burrs are wider than my and most funnels, so you need to use a built in funnel, like then tumbler without the bottom. The magic tumbler is too big, so the portafilter fils up and it’s a mess to get it out. That’s why I would recommend the Standard tumbler option, which is essentially a funnel, then you gain a lot of headroom for the portafilter. Then all you need is a low profile magnetic portafilter stand below and you’re in business.
You’re a gem. Keep it up man🤟
Thank you my friend, I do what I can!
Was the magnet at the bottom of the magic tumbler skewed that way from Day 1? That looks really sloppy. (And I wasn't trying to make a sloped pun until I read that.)
Thank you.
Of course! Thank you for your continued support my friend!
Hey Spro! Thank you so much for this review, I was really looking forward to it.
As already stated in your „Shorts“, I also got tons of spray with my Key and I was quite frustrated how inconsistent my shots where. I am probably through 2kg (4.4 pounds) and it is getting better, but it is yet far from perfect.
My spindle is straight, but I also can see from the top, that the inner burr is having a tiny play. I guess this is the „self centering“ you mentioned?
Additional WDT helps, but you still have to be thoroughly. I will test further and eventually remove the paperclip at all - so it is easier to clean.
If you need something that I, or others should test, just reach out.
Thank you again!
Hey! Yeah it’s definitely slowly getting better, I’m now at about 20ish lbs, shots are still messy. I am curious to sift the beans soon, I just didn’t have the energy to do it in this video, and the results I was getting more or less spoke for themselves.
I have since removed the WDT as it seems like it was more of a pain than an assist. Definitely keep me informed how things progress for you, if you aren’t already following me on IG it’s definitely the best place to share those kinds of things on.
@@Sprometheus I guess I have to create an IG account then. Haha alright … I will blame you for doomscrolling all night long. :P
I am also curious for James‘ review, as Kyle also dropped his today.
I don’t have the Kruve sifters, but this also popped into my mind. I did some amateur eyeball comparison with my K-Plus.
Soooo … I will probably get some cheap beans from the supermarket tomorrow and don’t stop grinding. :-)
Hey, I had a few issues myself but I have a few things to say that may help your experience. I appreciate your thoughts on seasoning anyway, and I think I will also throw some old beans through it. What setting should I use, my standard espresso setting? Or finer or coarser? I won't comment on taste as I am probably not qualified and that is such a subjective subject. Ok to touch on your comment about the WDT and the tumblers: I agree the WDT was a bit eh... but honestly that wasn't a big selling feature for me in the first place, as I only have a 49mm basket machine, and a 54mm basket machine. So I got the standard tumbler and cone as well as the Magic tumbler. I have played around with both and here is what I think you should try so far, don't bother with the WDT wiper, or the Wiper that comes with the Standard. I actually think the grounds come out better without that WDT mod and I have not been getting any visible channeling without doing any WDT at all. Now the wiper that comes with the standard tumbler and cone is actually pretty sweet, and if I was using the Cremina only then I would leave it in, but I am also using a 54mm basket machine, and the dosing funnel just happens to fit the magic tumbler perfect and I wanted to try it. This way, you can swap the cone on and off and go back and forth to either tumbler for awhile until you get an idea of what you prefer without taking off the bottom burr. When you use the cone with no wiper, just be sure to tap the cone a few times before you grab the tumbler, I found this tap not needed if the wiper is installed. OK that brings me to my next point about the bottom burr and not taking it out. I had the same issue you had with the slight wobble light test. Here is what I found, the first time I did this I got lucky I guess and just took it off and put it back on and then it was perfect, no wobble. Later when I removed it again, it took me about 5 or 6 times of loosening the nut, then retighten - check - rinse and repeat. But there must be just a hair of play in that burr shaft and eventually I got it perfect. Now, this isn't fixing the issue, and it would obviously be better if it wasn't required BUT when you get it right it seems to be perfect. The annoying part is that it makes me not want to take off the burr very often, and it will mean I clean it out less than I assumed I would being so easy to remove. But such is life, nothing is perfect. Bottom line, I think the standard tumbler and cone is great, fits 49mm and 58mm, and then you could grind into basically anything, you could actually probably leave the cone wiper without the WDT attached at all times now that I think of it, just wouldn't really do anything if the magic tumbler was on. I may do this. But tighten that burr and make note of the shaft key so you know how you are holding the burr each time you tighten it, I think you will get it perfect. I have also never had mine jam and I have had it on slowest this whole time with nothing darker than medium so far, crazy I haven't heard that... maybe Ill bump up my speed a little to avoid it hahaha. Hope that helps, I agree its not perfect but I think its the best looking and coolest grinder I have had. I also have never used a Niche, but its nice to hear you prefer the taste of the Key anyhow.
thanks for all this info. i have the HG-2 but the design is very similar and a lot of your tumbler info transfers over to the HG-2. in my experience, and bare in mind this is the HG-2 where im grinding whatever rate i can by hand, maybe 1/2 revolution per second. nevertheless, in my experience, the magic tumbler WDT helped more with collecting the grounds nicely and uniformly into the tumbler. once they fall into the basket upon lifting the stopper, true WDT is still prudent (at least in my experience). the magic tumbler also seemed to keep my mess of grounds more contained than the standard tumbler, but not by much. one last thing around alignment and swapping wipers: perhaps the HG2 is different enough but I never had to take out the bottom burr, i just had to lay grinder horizontal and unscrew a bottom concentric bolt.
Still looking forward to getting my Key... Considering here in Aus it's almost the same price as a niche the key seems so much higher end, and hopefully with a bit of seasoning it will be the last grinder I need to buy!
Buy direct from niche, the Aus resellers here jack up the prices a lot. I got mine for $1040 AUD including shipping from niche direct.
Where are you getting you Key from? I live in Australia and the Key is three times more than the Niche.
@@shaftyz seeing as I have a key on order through the IGG backer campaign I'm probably not going to do that
@@c0mbat15 early backer through Indiegogo they had a 500 USD discount so ordered it for $1500 USD, just over 2k Aus + postage etc.
The burrs wobbling from the shaft is a problem even on my key too. It absolutely doesn't sound like it was supposed to be this way so the beans self centering them is a lame excuse. Do you hear a noise when burrs are empty and on tight setting?
Yes I got noise and what seems friction sound after grinding on a high speed.
I asked weber and told me that the key wasn’t designed to grind always on high speed.
If you lower down to low speed below 70 RPM, you’ll get stalling.
Put a dial indicator on the shaft while running. The results might be interesting
Very nice, detailed review. Thirty pounds of coffee is a years supply for me lol. The burrs and build quality look amazing, sorry to hear it is not as perfect in the cup. My consumption of coffee is low enough that I can easily hand grind all my beans, so I will stick with that. I do secretly want a Niche, but unwilling to spend for it.
Thanks Jaime! And yeah, 30lbs is a massive amount of coffee, and likely your average persons yearly amount. As a roaster I have the fortunate ability yo stockpile old beans for occasions like this.
I'm averaging using upwards of 100 lbs. yearly for espresso only and hand grind 95% of the time. Still find it hilarious there is so much fuss over the electric grinder fad when a quality hand grinder is all one really needs for ANY home use.
@@commandodude333 Not everyone is a Commando, dude! :D
I tried it for a month and unsatisfied.
Very week motor which doesn’t give you all options with daily stalling not only with light but also with medium roasts at 70 RPM or less.
Noisy but well functioning motor is better than quite but malfunctioning one.
Thank you for a great review for a product I won’t be buying anytime soon 💸
Just received mine today - tried about 8 shots before I retired for the night. I had major channeling issues with each one (spraying and split streaming like crazy). At each stage, I made the grind finer and finer to reach my time window (27-32 sec) - with some sacrificial beans ground in between. I too am coming from a Niche and I was able to get it dialed in with little effort. My work flow on my Niche is: grind > top PF with funnel > invert grinds into PF > wdt > tap PF on counter > leveling tool > pull shot. With the weber standard tumbler, I tried with and without WDT and found no difference in channeling. I plan on trying again once I get my hands on more beans, but so far I'm not too happy about it.
Long time HG-1 owner, still waiting for the key as it's very delayed. Has anyone seen the orbit - an Acaia and WW collaboration? 63MM flat burrs. Looks like a mini me version of the EG-1. Also curious what people think of the lagom p-64?
The ceado e37z-hero had this grinder and others like it beat by almost a 5yr head start. Although 83mm flat burr, coated burrs, and adjustable rpm from 600 to 1500.
The trade off is it $5000 to
$6000 price tage
Do you think the Mk 2 would change your opinion on the Key (since it seems to address many issues like power, alignment, etc)? Or, do you think you'd feel more or less the same?
I don't own a key but I have used a friend's and loved everything about it. From the aesthetic to the workflow to the coffee that it produced. Granted, I already use a magic tumbler, rdt and leveler so for me it felt like a tailored suit. It was all second nature.
The issue with light roast @ low rpm issue would never affect me. You can spec a larger motor but then the price of an already expensive grinder grows. It's hard to imagine it as the deciding factor in many people's decision making process but I suppose its worth mention.
The variance in one grind step is the most concerning complaint but its worth noting others have done the same one step test without the wide variance you got. Perhaps something was knocked out of place in shipping or maybe it just needed a bit more time. I know that the factory is very thorough about checking every unit but mistakes can happen especially with the earliest units. If that was the case it's very unfortunate, but it seems like you weren't in love with the rest of the experience so perhaps it wasn't meant to be.
Unfortunately I'm not in a position to spend even half what a Key costs on a grinder but it seems to me at that point its a lot like buying hifi. Some want vintage tube amps and some want vintage solid state amps and still others want the newest state of the art equipment. You can argue about what sounds the best the same way you can argue about which grinder produces the best coffee but it's very subjective. In the end the only thing that matters is how the experience connects to the individual.
for that price I would expect better TBH, it's also a reminder that the Niche Zero is really tough to beat. For my money I would look for a used Mazzer Robur and convert it to single doser usage.
Thanks for the review. I was considering the Key as it seemed like a forgiving grinder for espresso. I’ll stick with the P64 for filter and EG1 with core burrs then.
Thanks for the review. Still torn between the niche and the key but from your review it seems tough to justify the extra spent. You said RDT was not optional for the key, what about the niche? Did you also have to break in the niche with 20pound of coffee? Sorry I do realise these are more niche questions but I m sure I m not the only one considering these two grinders.
I have a niche...it doesn't handle RDT well...but honestly you don't really need it if you have a quality WDT tool.
Niche is amazing just buy it
Damn, but I am glad I went with the Kafatek monolinth instead of the Key. Granted the key is readily available, unlike the monolith which you have to wait for half the year to arrive, but once it does its basically set it and forget it.
Smart choice
I can’t seem to get any pressure with my key even at 0 grind setting… any help is appreciated
I am still very happy with my Niche. Your honest comments mean I am not rushing to change it out. Thank you.
You know, generally so am I. It’s really been an extremely stress free ownership experience.
Same. Every review video for other grinders compare with the Niche and every time I don't see any reason to upgrade. If you're lucky enough to get one, it's hopefully the last grinder you'll ever need.
Same here. Considering I'm no coffee expert, I'm very happy that I ended up getting the Niche and the Bezzera BZ13 espresso machine. They seem to be a perfect pairing for my budget and level of interest in making good espresso.
Wow, I’ve never seen you look so deflated. Thanks for the review and taking one for the team.
Now you have me on the fence. I have one on pre-order, but this review has me second guessing my decision. I recently got an Atom 75 two months ago and have finally gotten the hang of it and it's cup profile after coming from a Sette 270WI. I don't know what to do at this point. I was hoping this would be my first foray into very high-end home espresso grinders.
Essentially this was my first foray into very high end grinders. I was thinking this was the last grinder I’d ever buy. That was actually the working title draft for this video before I actually used it.
I’m sure the issues that mine have aren’t on every grinder, so try not to get too down on it before you use it. Time will tell.
@@Sprometheus that's true. But I can't help but think about them considering the price. Other grinders like the Wug² have my attention - the ability to swap between conical and flat burrs in one grinder. Also, when can I order more beans? Loved the last two bags I got! Cheers!
I’m really happy with mine compared to my atom. Both are great grinders but mine is very consistent and the wife loves that it doesn’t look like crap in the kitchen. Definitely a conversation piece.
Lolll that wobble in the burrs!!! 100% that’s your inconsistency issue. And it’s so obvious when you look up at it around 8:50. The fact you can easily see it on camera without even trying to look shows how bad it is.
Should have bought the Onyx Buddy, it’s beautiful and the grinder is fantastic
This video was very educational and honest. Too many coffee channels kiss ass but your channel goes to the top of believability. I would be very interested to see what you think of the Kafatek MC4. I own one so if you ever pass through NYC, you're welcome to take it through its paces.
Thank you David, and that’s the best possible comment/compliment I could receive. I really pride myself on providing a true and honest review of my personal experiences, I’m sure it’s not going to make me friends at Weber, but in the end this is channel is for my fellow coffee lovers, not the manufacturers and brands.
@@Sprometheus Yes, we viewers see the risk you're taking and appreciate it. Unfortunately, honesty has consequences. Of course, we all respect James Hoffmann but he beats around the bush too much. For now on I will come to this channel to see unvarnished truth. Keep it real.
Great Video. I think a Helor 106 Hand Grinder with a Variable Speed Drill on a Stand would be a more flexible and better value for the money than the Key. I recently received a Kinu M47 Classic and pulling some great shots on my 2021 Olympia Cremina with medium roast beans.
I had a Eureka Mignon Oro Single Doser but had to return it back to the Dealer after 3 weeks of use due to crazy vibration and noise levels.
I am beginning to see a pattern with Grinder Manufacturers in the espresso coffee world getting on the 'single dose' band wagon to make a few bucks with little advantages to the Consumer even when spending large some of money on say a Weber Key, EG-1, HG-1 & HG-2 or a Ceado e37z Hero etc. Grinder.
Not to mention that the Helor 106 has insane/lifelong build quality and gives top notch performance in function and in the demitasse. So impressed with mine it will be the last I'll ever need/own. My beast of an electric sits by watching, waiting and hoping to be used again another day.
maybe im dumb but whats the point in measuring the extraction as part of the brewing process for the grinder, when you should be able to change the extraction by manipulating variables other than what grinder youre using
For espresso, the general rule of thumb is to have an extract time of 25-30 seconds with a 1:2 - 1:2.5 bean to extraction weight, and minor modification to dial the acidity/boldness. Tuning the grind size is by far the most common and standard way to archive that. If the minimal change step cause an extract time to change from 26 sec to 40 sec, it means the "other variables" I need to change is either the bean weight by up/down dose of 1/5, or changing the pressure of the pump etc. which both have very serious impact on the resulting espresso.
Yeahhhh awesome grinder but there’s something oh so special about the Niche that really sets it apart. If only niche made a flat burr version 😭😭😭
Thanks for the review! I’ll be sticking to my Niche for sure. Hard to justify that price tag if performance is similar and workflow is more of a hastle
Have you consider the Kafatek MC5?
Wicked video as always. Sub'd to Standart with yout code.
I think you can sorta see that shaft wobble @7:10 lol
Well if I ever do upgrade from the niche /df46 SSP MP it looks like the bentwood might be the next step.
There’s a lot of grinders out there, and likely by the time you are ready there will be 100 more haha.
@@Sprometheus it is quite impressive how the Niche continues to hold its ground in the mid range grinder tier. And that is very true. Plus I really don’t see myself abandoning those two grinders any time soon
Now I have not used the key, but what you write resemble allot of the two big conical I did own, a conical just uses less precise burrs that has a noticeable wider distribution, this is especially true for the big mazzer robur burrs, burrs that are well known for this. Reality is that conical is a nightmare to align just somewhat acceptable especially compared to the relatively straightforward task aligning of flats, so alignment is always a challenge on these, so I’m not overly chocked you see this, as this was a well known issue for years before the dawn of SD grinders.
Also I always found an aligned flat to be far more predictable when making grind changes.
I honestly never seen proof of conical really living up to being adjusted within a given micron number, no matter what conical grinder electric or hand it’s just not the reality I seen, for it to really work like that it would need an alignment I never seen and burrs machined to far higher precision like we actually see on flats, even the Kafatek Monolith had a very wide distribution in all test I seen, there is just no way you can adjust by micron when something isn’t more precise then that. Obviously you should not see 19g of difference with so small changes, so from my experience that is a bad misalignment I got the exact same issue when the things wasn’t aligned good enough, running the burrs in might make it less pronounced but I will be surprised if it solves it.
Thing is some flats just don't deliver like a quality conical can. Some tend to go on and on about certain flats, but I've strayed away from them and prefer conical especially for the heavy texture (espresso) that I get from conicals. Flats just can't touch that regardless of the configuration. Of course there is no right/wrong, just what works for each enthusiast, but the conical bashing is a bit much these days. Also find it damn hilarious how scientific some try to be and miss the entire point... enjoying the espresso instead of nitpicking the slightest details that mean little.
@@commandodude333 I don’t really see it as bashing, it’s the reality that conical is harder to align, deliver a wider distribution, is less precisely machined, are built to lower quality of lower grated steel, the three last thing also apply for traditional flat Italian made espresso burrs just to get that clear.
Reality is you get what you pay for, you might like the espresso/coffee from these, no one is against that or even argue against that and wasn’t really my point.
In regards to taste it dos sounds like your into darker style that might explain you preferences for conical. I like very like very light roasts for that neither conical nor espresso flat really showcase the full flavour potential.
@@mikni4069 I get where you're coming from and light roast/modern flats equals NO texture. Might suit some people, but a waste to others like myself. 'Espresso' some are extracting these days is barely more than weak ass pourover. Also, trying to be a bit scientific with trying to measure variables in microns is a bit much as that equals nothing useful in the demitasse. Simply satisfies the inner coffee nerd and not much else.
Never stops shocking me how Niche is still the big bad all round boy after so many years for espresso.
… so many years? The Indiegogo campaign was started in 2017 :) Not that I dislike the NZ, have one. The HG-1 from 2015 is essentially the same design as the Key grinder (minus the motor).
@@zixzysm 4.5 years is pretty decent right for the competition to pull it's clutch up? Almost every Niche killer has 1-2 major flaws that could've logically ended at ideation stage.
@@subbieda But the Key was never a “Niche killer”. I don’t know where people get that. The Key is built as a direct development of their HG-1/HG-2. Which is a lot older than the Niche.
It’s just the poster child of the espresso hobbyist community now. I use a used Italian grinder and it works fine.
I'm not sure I understand. If the extraction is lower, yet there less fines (I suspect the peak isn't lower as Niche's) you should push for a finer grind to achieve a higher extraction, despite the time the shot takes?
Not hatin', askin'. Was a shot a touch finer with a touch higher extraction bitter and/or astringent? How come, if there's less fines?
On paper this grinder, having less fines and less texture, should be able to achieve better extraction.
If a step finer makes it astringent and bitter, it makes the grinder useless as it doesn't have enough flexibility for shots and (I understand) it aims for spro, not drips.
I think if I’m someone already ready to drop $2k on a Key grinder I’d rather go for the full-fat EG-1. Yes it’s double the price, but is also renowned and established-and doesn’t come with compromises or growing pains that you mentioned. Otherwise I’d save a stimmy and get the Niche. (Anything would be an upgrade from my breville grinder lol)
Thanks for always being honest!
Almost 3 times the price of the Niche. Also, I'm a machinist, millwright and Marine Engineer. Stating that the burr is self centering is a crock. A shaft that long requires support in the form of a bearing. I predict a close look at grind size will show wild inconsistencies especially oncoarser settings. The beans shouldn't have the job of self centering the burrs LoL 😕 I'm happy with my Niche, but thanks.
I’m so glad I went with the P64.
It seems like different backers are getting different results. I wonder if they’re having issues with quality control?
You mentioned they were quick to blame the mazzer burrs. That’s incredibly poor business practice. Would you mind expanding on that?
Yeah, I’m sure there are some mixed results.
They never outright said it’s Mazzer’s fault, but when explaining my issues they reiterated over and over that Weber’s QC standards are higher (30 micron) versus Mazzer’s (60 micron) which in my mind feels like a brush off of taking responsibility.
@@Sprometheus can you elaborate a little more on this? It sounds like they are explaining the issues and not casting blame. So it’s good to know if that’s the situation.
I have had my key for a month or so and love it so far. Way better than my atom 75 and looks awesome as well! Hopefully they can help resolve all your issues since you are keeping it.
Indigogo campaigns never turn out as advertised. I have backed 4 projects from indigogo - 3/4 never arrived and the other one was significantly different to described. I will never back a project again.
Same here. Also, while I didn't have a problem with the delays or WW's communication, the gaslighting in some responses from Indiegogo reps to what were IMO very reasonable questions from backers (back when IGG were replying to comments directly) really put me off as well. I'd be happy to buy directly from WW in future but definitely won't be backing any IGG campaigns.
Niche would like to have a word.
@@LimitedWard One of the very few...
That’s the problem with the Versalab style of grinder. The unsupported shaft must be super stiff to resist the unequal forces from grinding. Weber claiming that it self centres from equal bean pressure . . . Hmmmm
Damn I’m starting to think if I should of just bought the eg1 now or just stick with my niche I was gonna sell it when this came but I might just keep it and if it’s really that bad I’ll sell it n just get the eg1 u guess
I used this grinder after a period of 4 months and I faced many problems. On low rpm like 70 rpm or less with Light to medium roast coffee stopped suddenly the burr hard to rotate. If the grinder does not turned off from the main switch without using above 3 hours , and when you want to use it, it will not work.
I will watch most videos on this grinder and analyze everything... only to remember that 2K is too much for me and be happy with what I have XD
Great review - given your issues, I’d be having buyer’s remorse also. 2k is a significant step up from the usual suspects, and far too many “issues” for me to consider this.
What order number are you? Sill waiting for mine to be shipped.
There was no part 3. What happened? Did you return it ? Did they accept refund or even to test it ?
I sold it. Couldn’t be bothered.
Wow…after watching this I’m happier than ever with my Specialita. It’s never once let me down.