Self Taught vs. Formally Taught Musicians
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- čas přidán 23. 08. 2024
- This is documentary I created in 2013 which highlights the differences between self-taught & formally taught musicians. The musicians featured in this video are:
John Floreen - Rutgers-Newark Music Theory professor
Tom Gaydos - Rutgers Alumni & Guitarist & Flautist
Josh Milan - House Music Artist & CEO of Honeycomb Music
Moses Laporte - rising Rap Artist & Music Producer
I DO NOT OWN THE RIGHTS THE MUSIC VIDEOS USED IN THIS DOCUMENTARY
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I dont understand why everyone is hating on music education. Im self taught and now learning theory and its opening so many doors.
Oh yes
I believe formal training should always be taken advantage of whenever possible. But that's the issue: it's not always available to everyone.
100% agree. If i have the chance to learn some formal music education i take advantage. Its just some people who only worry about theory cant get away from it and stunt their creativity. Not like its everyone but ive seen it happen and it sucks. They know all these techniques but cant create anything with all the tools they have acquired. A good balance is where the best music comes from
I agree, and it sucks that it isn't more readily available to everyone; but the video doesn't really talk about it that way. It makes it out to be debilitating. Like one cannot be creative and formally trained. Without realizing it, they're saying knowledge is hindering.
Exactly. Its sad that people think knowledge of any kind is debilitating.
It seems like a lot of people think self taught means you don't know any actual theory. To me, self taught means you actually taught yourself the theory behind music and how to play an instrument -- using books, other musicians, and other materials. Basically, you just didn't go to school for it. The self taught musician *might* not have the broad knowledge of a person who has a formal education in it, but they certainly aren't just banging around playing random notes until something sounds good (in most cases). You learn enough about what you are doing until you are satisfied and know enough to play the things you like. A self taught player could read music and have a great knowledge of theory... it just depends on what they taught themselves...
steven pomerville 2 months after I started playing guitar I bought two berklee music theory books and watched theory lessons on CZcams daily until I knew every note on my instrument and could play through the major scale while knowing what my scale degrees are.
steven pomerville I completely agree with your statement btw
steven pomerville Yes, self taught, literally means self taught, not just doing something without learning about it. It's 2017, all the information you need is free on internet. Even full official courses.
I agree. I think most people will watch this and come away with the misnomer that "derp i don't need no theory!". Basically any musician worth their salt, whether they have learned formal theory or not has come to the same conclusions musically that traditional music theory already teaches us. On top of this, it is so so helpful when it comes to working with other musicians to know at least rudimentary music theory. If we're already using the same language, we can communicate our musical ideas much easier. So instead of using your "self taught" made up music language you may as well just use the standard language of music. If I tell you the key of the song is in D major and the chord structure is I-IV-V now we can all just play and get the feel for the tune. There isn't no fiddling about and saying "so then what's the chord after that again"?
Paul McCartney and John Lennon may not be able to read sheet music but I assure you they have an understanding of music theory. There is no "mystical" thing here when it comes to the craft of making music, although that's not to say writing and playing music can't be a euphoric experience.
I completely agree. I taught myself ukulele and a little bit of piano for a year and learned sheet music from school music classes and theory from CZcams. I now have a piano teacher and I am in band, so I think I have a good view from both angles. I think band has benefitted me in the fact that I can now play better with other musicians.
Being self taught and knowing music theory doesn't contradict itself. I learned more music theory online than my music teacher taught me in years.
George Hypotenuse and the Triangles That goes for most people honestly. Most people here just seem to think you can't learn theory without having a teacher. All the information you need is online, you just have to look for it and read and listen to it yourself.
I learned more music theory yesterday in 15min thanks to an app than I learned in like 3 years of compulsory music lessons at school.
Learn many styles !
Kulturalny Wilk School music subjects doesn't teach actual theory- If you're serious about music I recommend taking some musicianship or music theory exams.
Self-taught can be great, but if all you do is learn to play tabs or only by ear, you're not as good as most of formally trained musicians since we actually know what we're doing.
I think that you HAVE to have the self taught attitude to improve and really learn about which ever area of music that you are interested in. Formal training is worthless without that attitude. That being said; when used correctly, a good music school can be a great way to accelerate the music learning process.
The only 2 problems I have with the documentary is that it focuses on Classical training (which is a lot more strict and restringent of other styles); and that it's a bit biased in it's content. Yes there are tons of amazing musical artists (with formally taught musicians, arrangers, composers, etc. in their musical team); but there are amazing formally taught musicians/artists with tons of soul like Esperanza Spalding, Robert Glasper, Snarky Puppy and countless others.
As long as you have music and soul in your heart you are good to go. Music school and formal knowledge can't hold you back, it'll only be an aid in your journey.
Juan Antonio Couldn't have said it any better
Mr. Juan Antonio many thanks!, I didn't know Ms. Spalding an I am having a wonderful time discovering her music. Thank you!.
Josiah Meade Interesting interpretation. I also love playing my own music and improvising. But playing other peoples music is a seperate challenge. You have to get inside the mind of the composer. Just listen to glenn gould discuss bach. Its insane. Formal training does not block the soul of music if you dont allow it to. Some allow the rules of music theory to be just that. Rules. Rather than what they truly are. Suggestions and ideas based on 100s of years of knowledge. I think formal training allows you to learn from beethoven mozart bach and all the masters while allowing you to experiment as well.
This video is very misleading. It’s not he job of a classical musician to express themselves, it’s their job to express what the composer wanted. And that’s the key difference between classical and other forms of music. I’m a jazz studies major at school and my playing abilities and vocabulary have drastically improved while I’m here, which would have otherwise not happened because I wasn’t around a good influence. At school I’m around people who are trying to figure this stuff out too so it’s a fantastic environment.
Classical musicians don’t have a need to learn by ear, do some of them? Of course. But thing is classical musicians have impeccable technique and reading abilities, all of which can also be gained from formal education. Playing with good technique on your instrument allows for much more ease of playing and above all things means a less chance of developing permanent injury from poor technique. A high number of iconic jazz musicians are formally trained, past and present.
One is not better than the other, but understand that being formally trained is just as valid.
Absolutely, while music schools can't teach you how to be yourself. They can provide you with the techniques that make it easier for you to do so. Music is the same as any other art part internal and part craft. While many people talk about being self-taught in reality this is rarely the case. Most musicians learn from the other musicians that they play with. Aretha Franklin was cited as self-taught. Yes, but if she hadn't been exposed to the Baptist gospel sound that she brought to popular music it is unlikely that she would have sounded the same.
While Frank Zappa may have talked about dropping out of an inferior education system we shouldn't forget the influence of classical theory on his approach.
I think by and large this is a false dichotomy, while many musicians do fine without knowing how to read or have formal training and are able to express complex musical ideas, many formally trained musicians are capable of the same for instance George Gershwin or Louis Armstrong. They then took that formal training and used it in new and unique ways.
The usual problem with formal training is that the musician never develops the ability to play what they hear. These are the musicians that can't play without the sheet in front of them. Prior to the 20th Century it was almost impossible to become accomplished on an instrument without formal training. Where would you hear complex music to develop your sound. With the advent of recordings musicians no longer needed to be able to read to discover new musical forms, recordings provided it for them. They could now simply play a recording over and over again until the had absorbed the ideas within.
This is not to disparage reading music it frees you to play not only what you have heard but what you haven't.
It's the creative mind that matters.
Most valid point here. Music is a language and theory is its vocabulary. Like putting sentences together. It can be Extremely helpful to know this language. You can write better stories..
It's very important, however, one must learn the fundamentals and theory behind music and composition in order to incorporate their own creative ideas.
well said, classic is boring and outdated
Yea, so many self taught musicians that make bomb music. Let’s be honest we don’t love tchichovsky or Mozart for their theory but for their musical creativity.
I know from experience that it helps to have a bit of both. You should have the drive and curiosity to teach yourself a lot musically, but having a formal background always helps you understand what you're doing. As a formally taught cellist and a self- taught guitarist, one aspect always helps with the other.
It doesn't matter if your formally taught or self taught. The only thing that matters is that you are having fun with your music. Just don't be one of those people like beyonce who has song written for her and people think she wrote them.
Ah, THANK you, everyone's either hating on-formally taught of self-taught people here. JUST ENJOY MUSIC GUYS!
yap.. im a self taught too.. somehow now i manage to play finger style on acoustic guitar just try to mimic others style like sungha jung.. now im going tp share my experince.. i got this 1 pianist friend .. at that time he actually choosen to perform with a girl singer.. but the notes he play was the same to the original song.. yeah his skills was far better than mine.. cause he can read music sheets nicely and have well trained fingers.. but somehow he cant play it in the other chords of the songs.. the girl singer cant hit the high notes on the song.. then when i try to play the piano, i can play the song rightaway by reducing down the chords several range or octives so the girl could sing at her best.. of course theres some minor error.. but is ok cause still have 1 day tp memorize what nktes should i play to make it harmony.. i then was picked up to perform live with that girl.. lol.. so from me is.. self taught is more in their intuitive than formal taught.. formal though is well train and got real skills tp play the instument.. probably if we have both.. will be nice xp well thats just for me.. this is true story.. hmm but maybe its only my friend whos like that.. im not gonna assume everybody the same.. haha alright. thanks ! yap.. whats important is we all loves musics :)
This is a non-issue.
Just play, people.
Underrated comment.
I was self taught for about 35 years. I finally went to college and earned a degree in music at 46. As a self taught musician I was blind to many things like extended chords, counter-point, rhythm, conducting, and basic all-around theory. College has taught me to walk into ANY situation, whether it's jazz, metal, classical, country, or rock and I can tear shit up. Hand me a piece of written music or a jazz chord chart and I got this.
The best part about college training is that I can now hear music and know exactly what someone is playing WITHOUT an instrument in my hands. It doesn't matter if it's Frank Zappa, Beethoven, or Slayer, I can interpret any music and write it on paper. When I learn music in my band, it now takes me 2 listens to own a song instead of 2 hours. Try self teaching yourself that.
Not trying to be a dick but jamming to party songs are totally different than jumping into a jazz trio with nothing but a chord chart. Try reading a Beethoven quartet on the fly.
Believe it or not, there is a way to play with feeling AND be trained in music theory.....I spent 35 years learning music by ear. I know exactly what you are saying......But In college they taught us to read a chord chart with passion and feeling BEFORE we even pick up an instrument. We spent hours and hours learning how to play with feeling. We couldn't pass any performance class without "feeling" in the performance. There is a reason that Beethoven is taught in college while Cobain will forever be a garage musician.
guitaryoder1 College really didn't do much for your ego eh
So going to college and learning music makes me egotistical? Guess I should be ignorant like you?
guitaryoder1 We have ourselves an insecure middle aged man oops
"I really can't see myself sitting down and learning a formal way of doing something that's artistic. Because, nobody can really tell me how to express myself, its just whatever I feel I hear it in my head and I make sure it comes out on my guitar, my beats, my verses. There's no class that can teach that, there's no class that can teach you how to be you". This is very powerful. This hit home for me. I did take piano lessons for 5 years (ages 8-~13) and that helped me read music for guitar. I'm a self-taught guitarist for several years (I'll be 20 in 4 months) and I think having the will and passion to love practicing and expressing myself in so many ways on one instrument helps tremendously with growing and knowledge and skill. This same quote can be applied to other aspects of life as well.
It's neither good or bad to be self-taught or formal. Being able to be determined to learn music in any way is the true way to learn.
my greetings from Burundi
Learning theory never hurt anyone. Only can improve your ability. Any youngsters currently self-teaching should take that energy and focus on also learning theory and seeking a mentor. Like being on a superhighway instead of a dirt road.
The self-taught musicians all come across as naive. Being formally trained does not remove one's creativity or emotions, nor does being self taught grant someone creativity and/or emotional expression. That's something that is developed, and it is not developed through the learning of a skill like they seem to believe. It is developed through the use of the skill. I'm a self taught guitar player, and I'm pretty awful at it. Not having formal training and music theory knowledge does not give me an artistic edge, it limits me in every way.
I think the balance of this was too uneven in favor of self taught, highlighting the exceptions and ignoring the average self taught player. If you compared the average self taught to the average formally trained, you'd find the formally trained to be far superior.
I think I've taken my self teaching as far as I can, and I am now seeking formal training. No education will take away your creativity, because creativity is the use of the knowledge you have to create something you don't, and the more you know the more you can create. The more ways you can find around a problem. Music education should not be so shunned.
Jason Caldwell I don't think this documentary is shunning being trained, it's showing the possibilities. Especially since many trained musicians spend much time bashing untrained musicians as if they are superior for knowing. Both sides do tend to be at odds. I however agree with a another comment, both have creative limitations, and neither are superior. I disagree with you say about being trained does not limit creativity. That is false, knowing more does not make you more creative, at least not for everyone. There are people who learned much but were in fact limited by the theory and education they learned. Then there are those who don't have it, and are limited. Having knowledge doesn't guarantee greater creativity. Yet, there are many creative trained musicians and many creative untrained. If you want to learn you free to, but I choose not to, I find myself more creative by not really knowing. I love discovering thing myself and then finding fun ways to apply it. It's doesn't stunt my creativity at all.
A self taught musician on average is going to approach things different than someone who is trained. It's not a matter of trained musicians creating things that are superior, but that it's more complex than what a lot of people who are self taught play, not superior and that depends on what that self taught musician learns and the time they devote to learning it. I've seen musicians who are self taught do complex things. Both can produce, "superior" work.
People can be either one and create amazing things. It is good to have a documentary like this to show people who may not have access training the benefits to being untrained. I don't believe it takes away from trained musicians, it just shows that even those untrained can create amazing things. It's up to you. Just like there are documentaries about trained musicians. I think people are taking a bit of offense from things that aren't offensive, nor is it saying being trained bad. It's saying that being self taught is just as capable in its own way to being as great as trained.
Fala Crow You didn't understand my comment. The focal point of my comment is that creativity doesn't come from being trained or untrained, it is something cultivated and honed. To say having more knowledge is hindering is naive. In another comment you said you gave up theory because you didn't like it and learn better without it. That is to say it did not come easy to you, and you do not like the challenge. That's a valid feeling to have, especially when learning something foreign that is related to something you love, and that you expect to come easily because of your current knowledge.
Learn music theory. If you have the chance to get formal training, take it. Allow yourself to be bad at something before becoming good at it. If you don't learn to enjoy things you're bad at, you'll be severely limited in what you are good at.
Jason Caldwell Actually, Jason that's false. I chose not to learn because I find that I learn better without it. Theory is not hard at all really, at least what I learned of it made sense to me. So you are false there. Also it is naive for someone to assume that knowledge does not hinder a person. That couldn't be further from the truth. Learning theory can limit people as well as not knowing it depends on the musician. I don't expect learning this instrument to be easy, but am willing to put the work into it. The more I practice the faster I advance actually. Taking formal lessons can help, but no, people can learn without and be just as strong as someone who does.
Maybe if you feel it limited you not knowing then that is understandable. You should learn it. I think anyone who feels they need to be trained should go for it. Not being trained doesn't severely limit you when you work hard at what you are doing, train your ear through learning songs, and doing exercises. I found that going to guitar jams and asking other musicians, most of whom were old school guy who learned primarily from the radio, for help a few times unlocked potential in me that was needed. No theory required. Many have done so, I've meet many of them too. It depends on that musicians ability to grasp it. Some musicians say theory is hard, I would disagree but that's because I got it. For others it's hard. I just chose not to learn it because I enjoy the experience of discovering things for myself really. There are limiting aspects of each really, pros and cons. So it's really up to the musicians and what will benefit them, I find learning from songs and playing in a band setting has really helped me greatly, my band mates even noticed my quick progress as a player. Wasn't even learning theory then. However, they are trained and none of them taught me anything. I just practiced more songs, and also finger exercises worked wonders too.
I don't know a lick of music theory and that IS an edge because I'll discover things a trained musician would never play because to them, playing X___ note in X___ scale would be "wrong" to their ears. You mention limitations. It is the trained who have limitations. The untrained go where ever their ear and heart take them. Music is like cars. I don't have to be an engine mechanic to know how to drive. I don't have to know how to shoot paint to know what color looks good on my car. And I don't have to be a professional race car driver to get down the road. Having formal training does not make one superior. Steve Vai knows much theory and yet Paul McCartney, who cannot read or write music, writes better songs.
Those are all really bad comparisons. You didn't just get into a car and teach yourself to drive. Someone taught you. You watched your parents and friends, you read a book before taking your learner's test. You had teachers for all of those things.
And who told you that about Paul McCartney? He was raised by a musician and understands quite a bit of music theory and even teaches it on occasion. As for "writes better songs," that's a subjective claim that serves no purpose in this discussion. Paul himself would argue that Steve Vai's music is superior. The difference being one writes technically beautiful songs and the other writes simplistic pop songs. That's like saying Dr. Dre writes better songs than The Grateful Dead simply because you prefer one genre over the other.
As a guitarist, a formal education helps me to improvise and work with others, and it makes learning new things easier. It also helps me open up creatively. For example, a lot of self-taught guitarists get stuck playing the same one or two pentatonic scales when trying to solo. There's nothing wrong with that, many guitarists have made very lucrative careers out of it *coughkirkhammettcough*. But an education will undoubtedly take you farther musically (not necessarily monetarily) than no education.
Any advice on how I can move beyond the same scales? I've been playing for four years now and I really enjoy it, but i want to move on to the next level, if you will.
actually, kirk is not a good example, since his teacher was Joe Satriani .... its sad i know ...
Logan Young learn the concept of keys and modes, and your chords as well. There are many tutorials on youtube
Say, David Gilmour or Noel Gallagher...they are multi-millionaires now
Dude Hendrix knew music theory.
Any Rebel reading music is not the same as theory.
Formal training teaches you discipline and the correct way as you attend the lesson, when you’re on your own afterwards you can mess with it, adapt it and do it your way to make it easier but always remember you can go further if you willing to learn more...
Exactly how can knowledge ever hinder? Understanding what you are doing surely can only be a good thing? Musical training and education can only ever make you a better musician in whatever genre you chose. It also allows you to use different genres.
Getting a formal music education does not take away the ability to express yourself through your instrument, and being self taught does not increase this, like what this video suggests
You seem to live by the words of this video wholeheartedly and probably believe that if a person wanted to express themselves through writing. They should spend more time learning about writing first in order to express themselves properly, but for those who have learned enough own their own, at that time cannot express basically at all because they were never formally educated or trained. Thats like creating music theories prior to the creation of instruments since BC to AD; let's develop sounds through formal training which doesn't exist yet for something that we haven't created and held to make it with. I am pretty positive thats how it all began, learn about a guitar first, okay lets make one next and then write sheet music, oh and finally express yourself based on your sheet music (edit when needed). Be free, but be completely structured first, and follow the theories and what you read; don't go off on feelings because that it is not what real music is about.
Yes, you absolutely need to learn to write if you want to express yourself through writing. If you want to be better at your craft, learn your craft. Knowledge is power. If you truly care about your music, or your art, or whatever it is you use to express your creativity, you do whatever you can to do it to the best of your ability. Purposefully avoiding knowledge for the mistaken belief that it makes people 'more creative' shows just how much people need to learn. When we start to gain the knowledge, we understand the importance of it, and just how integral it is to the advancement and betterment of its integrity. The dangers of self-education is the lack of accountability, of balance, of any source of reasoning and logic, minds that have learned more than us, greater and better, wiser.. I've never understood why so many fear this, are so threatened by this, are so spitefully resistant to this..
I taught myself how to play instruments but having some formal music theory and jazz theory training has helped me write and learn quicker. Being able to read and write charts becomes invaluable the more you play.
Guthrie Govan was taught/shown by his father and then he developed by himself. Probably had a few lessons. What he did next is where music theory and teaching kicks in. He went to the library (like Zappa said) and matched what he already knew with the technical language described in the books. That way later in life he was able to teach in highly regarded music academies and record with musicians like Steven Wilson and the movie composer Hank Zimmer.
Why is everyone hating on formally taught musicians? Is everyone here just self-taught people that is trying to convince themselves they are better than the formally taught people?
Tre Panda sorry but we know music theory. the difference we learned it for free on youtube and you payed for it...
I didn't pay for my music education. It was in grade school, middle school, and high school for me. Sorry your schools sucked I guess?
Its not a debate. It's like anything else we can learn ourselves, but different teachers have different perspectives. The more you learn about music the better your ear for any situation or instrument.
One of the most significant benefits of formal training not emphasized here is getting regular critical feedback on your performance, composing, etc.
I think it's a myth that Hendrix was self-taught. He for sure knew his theory and as a session musician he almost certainly would've needed to be able to read music. - that's unlikely to be self-taught.
His dad taught him. This is a known and documented fact haha
Be self taught at first and then get lessons
That might not always be good.
You could be learning bad technical habits during self teaching and then have those get slapped out of you by a teacher. It can be a jarring experience for some.
Then you tell that music teacher to fuck off
That depends on what instrument you are playing. Guitar is an intrument which is easier to self teach. A friend of mine taught himself to play the guitar and he's a very decent guitar player by now. But he also tried teaching himself to play trumpet but failed at it. It also depends on what kind of music you are planning to play.
There are bad habits one can learn while self-teaching guitar as well, and having someone show you the correct methods to use before you learn the bad ones. Bad habits are usually formed by doing what seems to be the most comfortable/simple, but turn out to be the most hindering, and in some cases can cause injuries like Carpal Tunnel.
I think it should be the other way around. Get lessons, learn basic music and how it works, and then when you know the language, you can say whatever you want with your instrument and fool around
Okay, as a musician with 10 years of being exposed to both individual learning and formal music education, I will say, a substantial amount of music education will always make you a better musician than any self taught player.
Does that sound a bit harsh? It should, the truth sucks. I am both a self taught musician and formally trained musician. I put myself through rigorous exercise and technical improvement for years. I had a few books consisting of music theory applied to the guitar through different guitar techniques which I learned from.
What's my point? My point is, you can learn formal technique through self teaching if you understand the material found in books relative to your instrument(s) of choice. Being formally trained does not remove the personally creative aspect of making music nor does it remove emotional expression from musical creation.
ATSIC Music Victor Wooten book : the music lesson would do you good....also mitch alboms magic strings of Frankie presto
ATSIC Music I'm self taught over here...You absolutely do not need music education to be good. Or even better. It helps to have a guideline. But as long as you're creative enough you don't need it. If you can learn the material out of nothing, aka yourself. That makes you better than the people who needed the crutch of someone else who learned it themselves :). just saying dude.
Music, if taught formally, is a science. When it's 'self-taught', that's *art!*
Yeah, no.
As a Musician who had a father who was a professional musician, pedal steel, 12string guitar/electric guitar. I had an advantage to"believe" I could be a performer on stage. Even though my parents separated and he was not there to teach me, I loved the drums. My mother paid for lessons and I learned from a gifted drummer how to"Practice" the art of perfect practice and doing something over and over. I began learning how to read drum music, sight reading. When I moved to my father's at 14, I didn't have a drum set nor if I did,we lived in an apartment. I picked up the acoustic guitar and fumbled around on it, I asked my father to teach me, and he laughed," I don't have time too" . He was in college and put all his efforts into his education. But the next day , I came home from school, a Mel Bay's guitar chords book lay on my pillow .
All I wanted was to be able to Jam with my dad. So I strummed every chord in that book, fighting the pain of the strings and complete unnatural feeling of distorting my hand and fingers.
Jumping ahead, 9 months later I had earned the right to graduate to electric guitar my father had said.
1986, right after Christmas we went to Phoenix and we bought a Stratocaster,white,like Jimi Hendrix's. Even though I wanted a Ibanez, like Kurt Hammit played. I never regret getting that Strat. Six months of self taught practice, I knew I was lacking in correct structure of the bands I listened to, to be able to emulate each note and speed.
I began taking lessons, I became very,very,very dedicated to practicing. I got very good in one year. The best compliment I got from my dad, "You're better than me" , even though I didn't think so, he could write songs and sing. I couldn't do that,not yet.
I never learned how to read music, tablature I did.
So, I believe that you can be self taught and take some lessons,but no one can teach you how to write your own songs, it has to be within your soul,your ability to not be embarrassed if your first work,song, is basic or corny. Some people only know how to play other people's music and that is a very good thing to accomplish. But if that's all you can do, I feel that the purpose to be a Musician could be limiting.
Once I found my voice and learned how to sing a song and play guitar,same time, my music world has never stopped expanding.
Good luck, believe in yourself and try to teach yourself and if possible learn correct structure, picking, rhythm is very important.
So funny, because behind of all these amazing self taught musicians, there's a whole team of fomally taught musicians helping them to achieve their goals...
MsanchezS333 funny because the same thing is true with formally taught, no one makes it on there own
OMG SOOO TRUEEE
I taught myself to play the keyboard.....I never ever ever took lesson or watch tutorials....I just got a keyboard n find witch notes sound good being played back to back....once I found a few note that sound good n work on different melodies until something sound gud
I think there’s actually a team of amazing self-taught musicians helping the formally-taught “musicians” achieve their 🤑 moneymaking 🤑 goals.
When i studied we had to pass "music history" and ALL the projects needed Someone with formal education that makes the music "real". Is just fact... I'm not looking down on self taught musicians. I work with tons of self taught and fornal ones.
Honestly, I think both have their place. I learned trombone and piano from Juilliard but I learned guitar and bass myself. Teaching myself was a lot of fun but I learned warm ups and other tips that only a professional could teach me from my formal training. It really depends.
I was taught to play the recorder when I was 6. Than I taught myself the guitar at 9. Than at 13 I was taught the piano. Now I'm teaching myself the violin. Having at least a theory basis is great but it isn't everything. Just do what you love.
Self taught to play the recorder at 9, Self taught to play the guitar at 10, currently self-teaching myself to play the Piano at the age of 14. I'm turning 15 now.
And I gave up on Violin for almost 6 years.
@@thinkpol7882 heeey, you're me but 5 years younger. Good luck in your musical journey 🥰
@@PeoplepersonOG well then, thank you, also good luck on your journey as a musician :>
I'm a self taught musician and songwriter. From a writing perspective, I do believe that learning music theory can be a big help for songwriters/musicians because (Number 1): If your playing is being processed into a computer and the notes appear on the screen it will show and give you a clear understanding of what you are playing. (Number 2): For Musicians who are also Songwriters, you can write your Instrumental Arrangements for horns, strings, etc etc. And that in my honest opinion is a good advantage.
Now as it pertains to Self Taught Musicians, it's Awesome because it gives you the freedom to invent and create your own style, which is a great feeling. These days it seems like everyone wants to be part of (The IN Crowd) rather than Standing out as a individual.
The Beautiful thing about Individuals that stand out of the crowd is: Their not afraid to take risks no matter the cost.
Did he say that 10% of all people have perfect pitch? No way. Probably more like .001%
>admitting you've used a Realbook
say goodbye to your music career
Matthew Hume lmao
I had grown up studying music and music theory, playing my violin for over a decade. I am able to read music, sight read, and master pretty difficult pieces, although I've been criticized by those who play strictly "by ear" that my formal training was BS. I've also self-taught myself in some of my other musical interests beyond violin.... but if it weren't for my formal training, I believe the imitation training I indulge in would not help me nearly as much. Just as those who play by ear may seek to learn to read music, I am training my ear to hear more clear.
Whether one is self-taught or formally taught, the love of music is what should guide a person. Knowing that life is inevitably circular, as is music, helps one to bring it all together.... in one harmonious and melodic masterpiece.
Much Love, Audrey
They’re not mutually exclusive. I’m self taught, but have a respectable understanding of theory, which helped develop my ear (IMO the most important skill to develop). If you’re curious enough, you can learn a lot about theory without going into academia. Generalizing a bit, but there was a sense of elitism in academia, which is where I think a lot of the negative sentiments come from. There’s pros and cons to both sides, but I’m very happy with the route I chose and find it rewarding that I haven’t been spoon fed any ideas about music. I only discover new concepts by investigating!
Edit: I should mention I play nylon and electric guitar only. For other instruments, I can see that formal education might be more practical
Learning music theory enables you to communicate musical ideas without having to play it. However, I can not read music and I'm completely self-taught. It's very difficult to identify chord progressions and scales, but I know what sounds good to me. Knowing why would definitely help me expand my options and enhance my ideas.
Never learn music theory in place of self-discovery. Never lose that excitement and inner voice. Music theory should help you and others understand the voice that's already there, not replace it!
Randy Lott Same here. Half the unusual chords I come up with I'm not sure how to name them. Theory would help me understand it better but typically I don't care as long as it sounds good when you put them all together.
not everyone is going to be famous, i think someone who is formally trained has more options to make a living than someone who isnt.
Exactly. To become famous someone doesn't even need to be great at their instrument, they just need to be charismatic. Very few people that are great at something but have no charisma are capable of becoming famous. I can't even think of any examples, though I'm sure there are a few.
In my experience, self taught players have difficulty dealing with constructive criticism. Even if you're trying to help them, some self taught players never learned how to take criticism which a qualified teacher would incorporate into their teaching. I think the being more expressive claim is a cop out excuse. There are so many advantages to learning from a master. If you like putting limits on yourself and taking longer to reach your goals, then by all means teach yourself.
Understanding all aspects of music is the lesson here. Self taught or not, everybody learns from somebody. Music is a shared art form and most musicians freely give that experience to those who truly want to learn.
Self taught musicians are going on like all we do is read notes on the sheet in front of us. Formally trained musicians can express their feelings too, they can compose their own music and they can fumble on the keys. We don't always play sheet music.I compose my own classical music depending on my mood. That isn't restricted when you are formally taught, it's just enlightened because you would have learned about chords and Melodies that can enhance what you are trying to play.
Depends on the musician. I've come across formally trained musicians that indeed can't play anything without sheet music in front of them, can't improvise or compose anything. Others however can. So it really depends on the person. Just the same with the music theory knowledge of self-taught musicians. Some know very little music theory, but play mostly instinctively, while others have learned a lot of music theory through books and other sources and can read music etc. I guess you could say the lines aren't always drawn that clearly between a formally trained musician and a self-taught one.
What a crock, assumes these artists made the records on the own, Elvis' band were all trained musicians and without them he would not have made those records.
The Stones had Brian Jones
The Beatles had George Martin
etc. etc. etc.
Exactly, trained musicians are essential. Very essential
Well said.
Axe Man but then there's the who
Spencer Floyd lol check your facts idiot.
Entwhistle was a highly trained musician
Daltry had been a choir boy.
Many trained musicians have created great things and some of the artists listed were not good examples, Elvis definitely. But people know very well that many self taught musicians have produced amazing music. But this documentary doesn't knock trained musicians. It just shows that being self taught is not a crutch, it has advantages in itself.
Music is about sharing your heart, your ideas and touching people who hears your music. This is not a competition who is better, self taught or formal training.
I think a lot of kids get bored with music because when exposed to it from a traditional and former perspective they most likely are learning early thoery, scales, etc. If you are self taught you will learn to actually play some songs and have experience having fun with your instrument instead of being bored with the technical things. After you have developed your technique and can have some fun with your instrument then you can attack the technical end of things with a better attitude and understanding of the importance of those things. The better musicians I know have engaged both their natural ear and their abilities to sight read and understand the "nuts and bolts" of music.
I think a combination of both informal (self-taught) and formal can be helpful to any musician. I learned how to play the clarinet in HS, taught myself to play the guitar, and later taught myself to play piano. However, I recently took some piano lessons from a music school and was bored because I knew how to play songs that my piano teacher didn't know how to play. I consider myself a LIFE LONG learner of music and it doesn't really cost that much. Now I teach piano and guitar lessons.
How only 17 subs and 8k view, I swear to god the greatest, well put togrther videos are in the smaller community, what a well put together video
But it isn't well put together.
But it isn't. He's misrepresenting both sides of this "argument." Self-taught is fine, what isn't fine is someone who literally knows nothing and only uses their ears saying they're just as good as the rest of us who read a book or learned from another person. They're not. Not by a long shot.
I am a self taught pianist (Grammy Nominated) I went to school to learn music in order to communicate with other musicians and to be able to do shows just by site reading and having to commit every thing to memory.
Formally trained musicians use use their knowledge and apply it in their creativity.
Im a self taught guitar player, my dad has played piano since he was 6, he was formally trained and has perfect pitch. i love the fact that i am self taught but i will admit that there are some benefits to learning music theory and having some sort of musical training even if only a little bit. and like it was said in the video, no one and teach you to be you
Joshua Locklear i seriously doubt your dad has perfect pitch
Dan you can ask him yourself...oh wait you can't because you don't know him and he's not your dad, thanks for telling me about my dad though. Have a fantastic day
You know what perfect pitch is right
Stevie Wonder, Jose Feliciano (and most other blind musicians) have perfect pitch.
You can still teach yourself music theory
Here's what I'm hearing that's missing from this presentation: the common theme between formal and informal training is THE BASICS!! - The FUNDAMENTALS OF MUSIC!!! How can you teach yourself music without knowing the fundamentals? It's easy to pic up a guitar or tap on a piano a particular melody one has heard. But knowing how that melody fits into a song to make it all harmonious is the real test. Learning how and why chords are played, how tempo and pitch works together with the aforementioned is vitally necessary in order to play/make music. Just simply picking up instruments and plucking/banging away(drums and percussion as well) it fruitless without knowing these things. If they're referring to discovering the fundamentals (basics) through self-teaching, then that makes sense. But again, that takes tremendous effort and patience. It's considerably less with gifted people. Formal music training can cut this time shorter, mostly.
Self taught is good for the few of us.
I originally first learned music on piano at age 6 and hated reading other people music, then when I was 12 I got my first guitar and it was a totally different world because of the simplicity of tabliture. After 10 years of playing guitar I finally decided to learn theory and it pieced together everything I understood into a language that could be translated between any instrument, truly awesome for composing songs and using chords
Education is education. As long as you cover the material and learn your craft who cares how you came by it?
In the end it doesnt even matter...
I think this is a rather interesting study of a video and I've watched it a couple of times over the last month. I actually agree with both aspects, the formal and self taught musicians. My reasons are, being both a visual artist,(Graphic Designer,) and Musician(Vocalist and Guitarist,) I'm not amazing by any stretch of the imagination, but always working to be better. As, I child I would always sing high notes, but with formal training I learned the proper technique. Even with playing guitar. I bought books and DVDs, and would teach myself scales and chords without knowing the proper execution. Sure I'm creative, but I had to humble myself to see what was lacking in my playing. Even though, I taught myself to read basic sheet music, and applied it to songs, I wasn't doing it properly, and noticed that I would be off by a semi-tone, because I'm not blessed with perfect pitch. Granted, a music instructor can't teach you how to solo beautifully, necessarily,(they can supply techniques,) or put together beautiful chord arrangements, but they can help you with your technical chops and organize your thoughts in such a way that you can explain your process. Hints: Joe Satrani, Guthrie Govan, Nile Rodgers - All studied music. Literally that music instructor could be the guy you know that plays an instrument a bit better than you during the jam session. Ask questions. I always did, however, I took formal lessons, because there were simply some things I couldn't teacher myself. Not everyone needs to read music, but learning formally helps organize your thoughts, so, that you can explain what you're doing even - if you're improvising on a song.
the advantage isn't really what a professional can teach you, it's the connections in the music business that a professional may offer
Self teaching developes talent but learning from others improves knowledge.
How does an actual experienced musician say that you need to read music to be able to play with others? So much amazing playing-by-ear and on-stage improvisation going on in the world. And what about all those rock bands that wrote classic songs with little to no formal training?
they are still simple songs, and that's why people like them. I don't think u know Prog music, that is some reeally hard music to play and to listen to. i dont think people are able to listen to complicated stuff.
It seems to me that Music Theory and the practitioners of the art create "masterpieces" of orchestral and choirs participating in union, that to many in the modern world, sound like absolute crap. Yet in their minds, justified by what they studied (and may I say created) it is a masterpiece of technique. It might sound great to others, but to me the complexity behind it is not pleasing to the ear nor is it logical for me to try and understand it when I can appreciate music in far more simpler and more enjoyable terms, such as with an electric guitar that does not require a language of itself to read. Propagating the idea that every musician or self taught musician (and I'm not saying you are) MUST learn to read music and MUST learn the inefficient setup of classical music (By this, I mean you dress up in fancy suits and act like pretentious %@%@%@@ on a stage, bowing and all... that's not elegance that's archaic and useless) or they will surely lack the tools to express themselves is highly illogical. There is no set pattern that one should follow when expressing themselves through an art. A book will effect one person differently than another, just as a song will, and just as will an individual playing a guitar, or a piano. It might hurt someones feelings, but Music Theory is like statistics at times; It's fake math!
I listen to a lot of progressive music, and a lot of jazz, and lately I've also been developing an appreciation for classical (European/Western classical) music. And I appreciate that in genres like this - especially in the creative process - music theory is more or less essential, as well often as a high level of physical skill in the performance - neither of which I really have. As someone who plays music for fun I'm more than content to leave this music to other people.
My point however is that to hold these types of music - music that is not even in most people's awareness as being 'music' - up as some sort of standard, and based on their characteristics to make generalized statements about music as a whole, is not really justified. Hotel California and Sweet Child Of Mine, are, by pretty much any reasonable criterion, _bloody damn good songs_ . Yeah sure, so are Beethoven's Fifth, and Fur Elise, and a bunch of other classical stuff, maybe some jazz standards. How much of today's progressive music do you really think is going to survive the test of time as these have, though? My bet is not too much, and I think it's rather pretentious to attribute this to the musical illiteracy of the masses...
No one is saying that those styles are the standard. Hotel California, Sweet Child of Mine and any other song at all you can mention can still be understood using music theory. And actually, knowing music theory isn't required to read sheet music. Yes, most classical musicians know theory, but they don't use the theory when performing Beethoven. You know what we use it for? Composition. And all those rules about counterpoint and how "you have to resolve the leading tone"? That's only true if you're trying to write species counter point and even Bach used parallel perfect intervals, so like...quit thinking music theory says "these are the rules you must follow" because it's not. It's saying "Hey, you know that sick guitar riff in that song you like? It's based on this scale over this chord. Give it a try!"
A lot of professional gigs are almost all sight reading, especially in jazz, classical, and commercial music. If you have a rock band and you play in your local bar, yeah you probably don't need to read sheet music all that well. but if you can't read sheet music, there's a lot of gigs you'll never be able to play.
Formal training: Writes a crappy song and knows exactly why it is crappy.
Self taught: Writes and epic song and has no idea why it is good.
Out of the two I'd prefer if I had formal training, it saves time experimenting with things that are doomed to fail.
Tolis Mortadelas Stop lying to yourself.
You really only provided half of the theoretical outcomes. But yes you are correct in stating that having a knowledge of music theory saves many many hours of "experimenting" and allows you to complete a song in a much more efficient manner.
PONYBOYonline experimenting is part of the fun in music...
Everything starts out good, it depends on how you add things to that initial idea that make it better or worse. Experimentation when writing is crucial, you might have a good sounding melody but if you don’t shy away from things such as odd time signatures etc you could have a much better sounding melody
1# Why do you think knowing theory would stop someone from experimenting if they felt like it
2# Who are you to dictate what people find fun?
As someone who has received both formal training and been self taught, formal training is FAR superior to a writer and a performer. People always bring up Jimi Hendrix with this but forget that the vast majority of people who attempt to teach themselves end up giving up or end up being incredibly limited when writing music if they even get that far, practically being able to use 4 chords and a pentatonic scale and nothing else. However that being said, many formally taught musicians get used to not experimenting by themselves and therefore can't express themselves properly along the line but that is not in all cases.
I bought my only guitar 15 years ago when I was 45, am completely self-taught. I bought books and practiced scales, but I made slow progress until I got DAW software and started composing. My playing skills increased rapidly. I strongly recommend recording, listening to yourself play will help you correct a lot of mistakes and bad habits early before they get set. I also taught myself guitar maintenance and upgrading, and virtually every other aspect of playing and composing electronic music. Today, I have music videos on youtube and I'm putting together a live one-man show. All it takes is the will and determination.
Not to put it down but it pays to be self taught first and get lessons. It is harder to learn from lessons because of habits already made, but lessons first can kill creativity and imagination of a player because they are learnt to follow everything to the letter. this is only my opinion.
Yeah, that's your opinion and it's wrong. I was formally taught first. Didn't limit my creativity because I was never taught that music theory were rules, just a system of descriptions.
+Clare Segrue
Opinions can be wrong. It is some people's opinion that other humans are lesser than others based on the color of their skin. This is an objectively wrong opinion.
How exactly did it kill your creativity? Cause I will admit that when I was learning theory it was hard not to think about theory while playing and writing music, which can seem like it limits creativity, but as I continued to learn the material those intrusive thoughts subsided and they became tools I could access without having to think about it. This happened because I didn't think of theory as rules, but as names for sounds.
I believe that music theory should be seen as a guideline and I agree with you with that... but when people are taught music theory first (especially by poor teachers), they tend to think that music theory is a system, not a guideline. This is how some people choose to teach music and for some students, this is how it comes across.
I know this is going to another part of it but hopefully, you will get my point.
when people learn sheet music during a lesson, depending on the genre, different types of teachers will allow more or less freedom when changing or playing the chosen song differently. Some teachers (for example formal jazz or blues) will allow more freedom with a song, unlike some (and I mean some) classical and formal music teachers (who see this as "wrong" or disrespectful). But it is at that time where students are changing the music, that they are expanding their musical creativity. This is when learning music formally is ok, but when the music teacher shoots down the student ideas then that is when music theory is wrong.
I say let the student experiment before learning lessons because this guarantees the student time to expand their musical creativity before they are told that they are wrong. Once the student has learnt his or her own fundamentals and has experimented enough with music then give them formal lessons to correct their bad habits and to improve/expand their current knowledge (or to fill in the gaps). Often self-taught musicians who have a unique playing style it what the music/entertainment business loves. they would not have learnt that unique way through lessons.
In the hands of the wrong teacher it can definitely be that - it's why I gave up guitar lessons as a kid. Apparently I was playing "wrong" chords. But they sounded good, and I found in later years they were being used in all sorts of popular songs. Partly due to having a deformed little finger on my left hand, I play guitar like probably nobody else, but it works for me and people think it sounds good. I could definitely benefit from some lessons on technique and scales and how things go together, though.
Every musicians sould know theory
Arunava Bala theory is like traffic laws. theory is like that thing that tells you you can't go faster than 55 on this road
Nick Cowan
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Knowing that the speed limit is 55 makes it more exciting when you take those curves at 75.
Knowing theory gives you a basis on which to communicate with other musicians, but even more than that, it gives you guidelines that you can choose to follow or ignore. People tend to misunderstand music theory, thinking that it's all just rules, when really it's the opposite. In terms of music theory, there can never be a "wrong note" or "wrong chord" or "wrong rhythm." Music theory does not impose any rules on you, period. Theory might dictate that the note you're playing is outside the key of the song, but knowing that means that you're doing it on purpose; it makes your out of key and out of time playing into an artistic expression, rather than just shitty playing.
Kevin Stephens how exactly do i say it like it's a bad thing?
Kevin Stephens ps unless i'm surprised, im bored
Art begins where technique ends. As a self-taught musician, I'm still in the technique phase
I'm a self taught musician, but once I got into learning the theory behind music it really helped me improve as a musician. I learned to read music at a young age by myself and not by a teacher. It just comes down to how you learn and how far you take it.
Is perfect pitch a natural ability or developed skill? The flute player here is classically trained but doesn't have perfect pitch, but I have friends that play songs on the piano and guitar by ear without formal training. I'm pretty sure it's a natural ability first, and a skill second.
I play cello, and I can do that and I don't have perfect pitch. I'm pretty sure you can develope it
Perfect pitch is a dumb skill. Hearing intervals is more useful, and wouldn't you know it? That's what real ear training is for!
playing things by ear and perfect pitch are not the same skill at all. many people don't have perfect pitch, but are good at matching pitch and recognizing chords and intervals. That's a much more important skill than being able to sing a C on the spot.
I can see that, that's where I fall too. I don't know what the actual note I'm playing is, but I know it is the root note of the key I'm playing in when I hear it. It's more about the mathematical side of music and measuring string distances within intervals. Relative pitch Vs Perfect pitch I suppose.
@@AgentMurphy286 a dumb comment.
Ear training is not there to develop perfect pitch which cannot be developed unless extremely gifted and very young. It also is more than being able to play by ear and more than being able to correctly identify any note. It includes being able to sing any note accurately and immediately.
All ear training is useful unless there's no musical ambition.
This is such nonsense, having an education in music does not stifle your creativity. Actually it can expand your creativity because once you run get stuck writing a song you can start applying theory to it and come from a different angle.
Having grown up a self-taught guitar-player, and having enrolled my daughter in piano lessons, you might say I have observed musicality from both sides. I appreciate more complex forms of music (classical, progressive, jazz) and thoroughly wish I had a better understanding of musical theory that formal dedication to routine learning can bring. I learned guitar because I wanted to and was driven to self-teach, but with guidance from a learned teacher I can only imagine what I could have accomplished. When you self-teach, you learn the passion of music-playing; when you are taught, you learn the language and color of theory. In my opinion, the perfect situation derives from both sides.
Thank you for the documentary; it is well thought-out and informative.
I´m self-taught and never were a "talented" player with any instrument. But I allways tryed to get my hands on new instruments, each one has it´s own benefits. Like piano for the ear, drums for the groove, guitar for the expression... I know that being a jack of all trades is not recommended, but it has helped me develope my own musical identity :)
its no fair i mean learning music is knowing much more dynamic nuances of music. Self thought (popular music) is very simple compared to classical.
Derek, I'm formally trained. You really think I have to think about what I'm playing? No. I've learned so many things through academics that it comes naturally. I hear II-V-I I know several things that would be fun to play on top of that. You act like self-taught musicians are the ones that know how to audiate. I'll give you that self-taught musicians are more likely to be good at audiation, but only if they stick with it for a long time. I on the other hand had names and constant examples of the various intervals that are possible in music. I don't have to think about it, I just know it second nature. I don't have to think about riding a bike, I just do it.
And I didn't pay a cent for my music education because I didn't think I was too good for those nerds in middle school and in high school. Be bitter that you wasted time, but don't blame us for your short-sightedness.
12:30 'Nobody can teach me how to express myself' spoken in English that was taught to him as a child by his parents & schoolteachers nonetheless. Lets hear him articulate that in grunts & groans
Carry on being naive & ignorant, & you'll never ever have 1% of the tools to express yourself as you would if you had the most rudimentary musical education
Well, I'd say linguistics is a false analogy to a musical education. One is a byproduct of physics and morphology that is necessary to construct society and is passed along through paternal influences throughout early life, and has little to do with artistic expression (communication itself), whereas the other is a bunch of adults blowing, or hitting, pieces of metal and wood in their hands and acting like pretentious assholes. One developed out of necessity whereas the other is a social construct designed to please the ears. The schoolteacher and parent imprints English unto the student, though that student is left to interpret the world and express it through speech as he or she sees fit. If an unmolded guitarist goes to a teacher, and is told a certain way of playing is the "right way" and that other ways must be discarded, then that's an imprint of something that does affect expression. You can express yourself however you see fit, and if you follow a preset, or a template, laid before you by people who claim they know the best way to express an individual, then it's entirely justifiable to snap the instrument in half and ram it down their throats. If it sounds good, and it works for your image of what you can express, then that's how you ought to do it. If some random instructor says you must stick your pinky out when you play the violin (happened to me), then you eat his dog
Well you're wrong, it sounds like you're too biased by a bad teacher experience to actual absorb & understand what I posted & projected your own meaning upon it
Bro most of the time they say "this is the correct way to play" there's a reason for it, whether it be for ease of technique or for safety reason. Maybe don't learn from non-percussion classical musicians, they're the real music elitists. Not people like us who expect you to know your scales and chords, which you should know those.
I went to music school for 4 years and now i'm embracing the journey of self taught music, i was really scared but i know now that it is possible and you CAN learn how to read by yourself and you CAN play with others musicians. You just need dedication and enjoying yourself while doing it, if you can take lessons, do it, if you don't have the money, grab a book, call a friend who can lend you a hand or find someone who can guide you. Music theory wasn't made by itself, the first musician was self taught, music is inherent to humans, so don't be afraid for so long like i did and enjoy the music, cause it is everywhere and you can always find it.
Ultimately everyone is self taught. A teacher, book or video can advise you what to learn or practice but only the student can do the practising, listening, memorizing, adapting etc. and decide what they want to play and how they want it to sound.
sounds like the self taught had a stronger case than the formally trained who seemed to grab for straws to make a case. i'm an evangelist for the play by ear method so i'm biased towards the self taught route.
Zrocs1 l
The fewer people you come in contact with, the better.
But don't you want to be able to talk about music? 😂
samsound what? You mean talking about cool stuff or about Cmaj675#4Eb466?
Álvaro Bass yes. All of it, lol.
I find formal education tends to create limited musicians. just like the flutist talking about perfect pitch and how difficult it is to hear a song and repeat it. this doesn't take any special skill just practice. I find those who read music are consistently amazed by those who can play by ear. I say that's cause you don't try. old school musicians had to learn both, seems to me there's advantages to both.
Yeah exacty ... even if you don't have perfect pitch, you can quite easily reproduce a lick from a song with what is called "relative pitch", which requires a lot of work but really, anyone can achieve that level within a few years.
Mr. Boarbaby The same way formal education can create limited musicians, completely self taught can also create limited musicians. I can't tell you how many times I've see self taught guitarists who've played longer than me with horrendous technique and technical ability with so many flaws. I've also seen many formally taught musicians who have no creativity whatsoever and can't play anything outside of what they were taught.
I'm personally a self taught musician (mainly a guitarist but some drum, piano & violin knowledge but haven't played those instruments in a while) but I'm hoping to get formal lessons soon. There's always something you can learn from someone else and a teacher can help pick out flaws better than you can yourself most of the time and pinpoint what you need to work on and how to go about it.
There are pros and cons to both but I think the main difference with the majority of people is that purely self teaching allows more creativity and formal teaching creates great refined mechanical ability. There are exceptions and ways about going about each to fix this but this is the general outcome of each teaching
Mr. Boarbaby True, but these types of musicians are only limited when their education is limited. Any well trained musician can play by ear because aural skills are a cornerstone of formal music education. Someone who can't do that after a good education either is untalented in music or has recieved insuffient education.
Also, complete self-teaching is usually only successful when carried out by extremely talented musicians. Most people will require at least some training. Most of the "self-taught" people have some sort of mentorship.
At the end of the day, you need the passion to teach yourself music, but you need the guiding hand of a teacher if you want to go down the right path.
Playing by ear is part of being formal taught .... omg... harmony cmon guys, dont lie to yourself, save some money and get a teacher to really teach u. The results will come super duper fast.
Knowing music can only amplify ur imagination.
I was so lucky that the movie, The Sound of Music was then the latest crazed when I was in the fifth grade elementary in our small town in the Philippines. Our teachers taught us all the songs of the said movie which we used to sing shortly after every end of our subject lectures. It was the time that I learned how to play the tune of do re mi on the water bottle xylophone filled in different level to create a chromatic scale when beaten by a stick. I was thinking all the while that it was just another ordinary kind of a song in which I just learned later, that it was really the basic musical scale. Thereafter, I was having a great interest in music and trying to master all the music that I want to sing by ears, by just listening to my favorite radio station prior to the introduction of the cassette recorder. When I was in Junior High, I was so fascinated by female senior schoolmates who know how to play guitars while singing. By coincidence, I have a blind neighbor who was a good instrumentalist. I was so mesmerized by his skills in playing the music popularized by the Ventures, Chet Atkins, and other famous instrumentalists at that time which prompted me to eagerly study how to play the guitar. Thru self-study, I gradually learned the rudiments of the chords, how it was formed and their respective names in alphabetical and numerical scales. I was also able to learn the chord variance, chord progressions as well as transpositions. Furthermore, I’ve learned to play fingerstyle and finger picking. My style of playing bass rhythm on guitar has been my basic foundation in learning to play electric bass guitar. Along the way, I learned to convert the guitar chords into the piano keys despite my handicapped in reading musical notes.
Inspired by the Beatles songs, I learned how to arrange music of my favorite Beatles selections by singing all their respective vocals as well as playing the instrumental rhythm, bass, and lead all by myself via two tape recorders. I’ve been an artist in my own right. I create my own music and lyrics though not commercially. Being a bookworm, it renders a great advantage to have perseverance and forbearance in ones research undertakings. This gives further knowledge to learn some easy methods in mastering the degree of difficulties of a sophisticated musical piece. Much less, if you’re an easy learner, it’s an additional factor. Accordingly, education is a never-ending process and it’s just up to us how to develop our well- being, be it thru formal training or self-education.
i taught myself at 18 and later took some classical guitar lessons. I see absolutely nothing wrong with getting further education to understand or play music better. Only beneficial. And this guy is very correct about reading music.. wow that will truly help you. Only adds to better memorization of scales and notes applied. Hope you all are doing well and God bless. Keep using those gifts you were given to inspire the world around you in a great way! peace and love.
Whether you're a "Formal" taught or "Self" taught musician, finding who u are as a musician & developing character, is what truly matters! If it's your passion, it will show! Character in your playing, is something that can't be taught, whether formal or self taught. All of your favorites musicians & artists, have something unique to them, that allows u to instantly recognize them, when u hear a song or hear them play!
Stop with the rap thing, there is literally no musical knowledge required for rap..... Also most of the pop stars had their songs written for them and just happened to be good singers...... We should focus on country, metal, rock, blues or piano driven music, not rap though.
Rap music requires a LOT of rythm & groove control, more than radio pop music. I love groove metal and there's a lot of rap in it :D
there is literally no harmonic or melodic knowledge required for rap*
but rhythmic and poetry knowledge though...
Gabrol
Are you sure? rap music dowsn't have chords and arrangements based on HARMONY & COUNTERPOINT?
Even when rappers are not aware they're using techniques and proressions well known in academic circles, they use them anyway, they go by ear most of the time but they know their s***.
If you talk about street rappers when the voice is only requisred, well, you won't expect a quartet string arrangement in the streets!
Even those rappers doing voice box (or something) they make incredible well acurated tunings imitating sintethizers, guitars, basses, a lot of things in the same moment, they are simply genius on rythm & Harmony & well use of scales and infinite detailed arrangements.
Verónica Gorosito afaik most rappers don't make their own beats
also, rap is literally called "rhythm and poetry"
Gabrol
IDK, rap is music still, I don't get it why some think is not music, but it's OK :)
I taught myself how to play guitar when I was 16 using books and cds. I then took music theory and performing arts classes in high school. There was very little I learned in school compared to what I taught myself. After 20 years of playing guitar and piano, composing electronic music and making beats, the one thing I lack as a self taught musician is the ability to sight read sheet music in real time. The importance of this skill would have made it possible for me to write songs and arrangements in my head before I even sit down in front of an instrument because sight reading music is similar to sight reading words and hearing them in your head. Self taught doesn't mean that I do not know theory or scales, etc. it means that I never had a formal structure or plan to my learning so pretty much learned only what I needed to in order to do what I wanted to do.
Nothing is wrong with being self taught,that doesn't mean I don't know the musical theory,and I'm a self taught bassist
I have a perfect pitch but don't know shit... Awesome something that I look forward to learning
i am a self taught musician who went to school to learn what I was doing musically. I learned what i needed which was the language of music. what makes a chord major or minor or augmented or a perfect 4th or a sustained 7th or a diminished 3rd. it did help but i learned how to play by myself by just playing with other, more patient, people. you should want to know what it is that you are doing but don't let that get in the way of doing it. if you cant afford lessons then go buy a grade 1 guitar(or whatever instrument) method book and use that along with just playing your instrument as best as you can. and most importantly don't try and sound like anyone. just learn and play the stuff you like and you'll develop your own style
As someone who's been self taught for 8 years, then had formal education, reading music isn't what allows you to play with other players
If you're a jazz bassist and you show up to a gig and the band wants to play a song you don't know, they aren't going to give you a sheet of music. You're going to have to ask them what key the song is in, they'll tell you the chord progression with a sort of sign language known by jazz musicians, and you're supposed to know what to play just like that. No sheet music involved.
Reading sheet music hasn't helped me be a better musician much, but learning music theory has helped significantly in my musicianship and expressing myself.
Every musician should learn intervals and what notes are in what chords. With just that, you'll have an easier time playing and expressing yourself
It shouldn't ever be a "Me vs you" mind set with this topic.
I taught myself how to compose music because I didn't think I'd ever be able to go to school and get a formal teacher. It changes the mind set of "wow these two chords sound good together, I wonder what else I can do" to "Here's the melody I have in my head, and heres how I'm gonna harmonize it". formal teaching doesn't even teach you how to make the music, it teaches you what things look like, sound like, and why they sound that way.
Some people are smart enough to figure it out without the need for a mentor, but it really helps to have one in some capacity.
Because my noise could just be your music.
You could have created an elaborate counter melody, or counter point and since you didn't know what it was, just thought it was extra special or something, not that it isn't.
Musical Education is just a tool. The more and better the tool you have, the better you can express yourself.
Communication is the only real reason to learn formally. By formally I mean learning to read music, period. We only need to communicate and play. Whether it's a rock band or orchestra this never changes. Knowing the language allows us to read it.
im a classically trained cellist and a self-taught guitarist/drummer. there were only two things i disagree with.
1: the pianist was talking about how classically trained or formally trained musicians can only play music thats right in front of them, removing the ability to just feel the music rather than just read the music, which is most definitely incorrect. a formally trained musician can also play by memory, after playing with the music in front of them for a bit it eventually sticks. and yes, we definitely know how to put raw emotion in our music, just watch yo yo ma perform the elgar concerto.
2: the music instructor was talking about how self-taught musicians often times cant perform together because they all most likely cant read music or dont have a well structured foundation of music theory. which i understand how having that foundation is very helpful in certain areas such as symphonies or a jazz group. but on the other end of the spectrum you have amazing self-taught groups that play very well together. a couple of my favorite are metallica, and green day. bands like that could never come from a group of formally trained musicians. they come from those who aren't afraid to learn things their way.
at the end of the day both formally trained and self-taught musicians have their advantages/disadvantages
The Real difference between being formal taught, and being self taught is on the creativity. Self taught musicians usually take other musicians ideas and creations (not because they want to, but because that's what they are studying) and putting some of his soul. Formal taught musicans create and compose what they want to create and compose. They end up with their own kind of music, their music, that nobody can copy.
Brendon Small was a formally taught musician and he wrote the music for Metalocalypse and Galaktikon.
32 years old. I'm self taught guitar/ bass player, my dad is self taught but can read music and writes his own songs. I just play what I feel plain and simple. The trick is to PRACTICE X3!!!
No musician is harmed by a formal education. Most are helped in some way. Mediocre musicians can become good musicians. Self-taught musicians can become great musicians. Precious few can be great without a formal education. So look at a formal education like this:
1. If you are already self-taught, it can fill in the gaps and enhance what you are already good at.
2. If you are not self-taught, pursue a formal music education and use the tools given as a foundation to teach yourself afterward.
Regardless, it's always better to both have a formal education and to be self-taught. Never be satisfied with your current level of ability.
Learning to play music is not just between having a teacher or self-taught. There is also the distinction of people who play by sheet music vs. those who play by ear / improvise. A lot of people who started off with a teacher and learned to play by sheet music doesn't always know all the theories behind the music they play but simply follow the notations on paper like if you see an A, you play accordingly. A lot of Pop musicians have no Classical player and tend to play by ear. Their music are recorded first and often notated on paper later by people who read notations.
The end to this argument: Teach yourself up until the point where you realize why you would benefit from learning theory, then learn theory in a specific way that gives you more tools specific to your style and streamlines your writing process.
Education in music is the way to go but it’s not the only way to go. You can learn to do what you love, you just have to do it.
as long as you practice your ear by playing a lot you can hear the root and learn by finger memory and just play without thinking. Listen for notes that fits in a solo for example
“You aren’t better if you don’t know something.”-Music is Win.
Even though the front person may be self taught, a lot of the musicians in the backing bands on the records we grew up listening to, and that have been sampled in hip hop have had formal training.
I was a self taught drummer for 20 years before I learned how to read and write drum music. Once I could read the world opened up
and I could play what the best drummers in the world were playing. Before I read I would be shown a cool beat and by the time I got home
I might have forgotten how to play it. Even if I wrote the music I can review my transcription without forgetting it it goes.
In band practices we move quickly through material when the other musicians know their theory.
Every self taught musician should make an active effort to learn some theory, as much as they can. It's super easy to do, and it's guaranteed to make you better.
Thanks for showing both sides of the spectrum. I've started formal training but finding it's hindering my creative process. This was very helpful in deciding on what to do next.
The funny thing is.
there's going to be some peoples that said they're "Self-Taught" and showing the public their "own expressions" of their "Genuine" Musical works just to find out that some of the elements in it was already invented 3 centuries ago and there's even a special class that studied it.
Yeah maybe these #$^% flaps that propagate the dogma of musical education will realize we self-teachers really don't care about what they've learned and want to discover the instrument for ourselves. Also, three centuries ago a majority of, well, everyone, lived pretentiously and acted extremely inefficiently in almost every aspect of their lives.
Forgive me if I read/interpret it wrong.
Is there's something from my post that intrigued and upset you?
and if does, just like what you've said, I don't care what your thinking and said.
it's funny when someone said "I don't need formal educations (in any discipline) to be good of what I want to learn and I don't care what anyone said" but goes batshit mad when someone just said "yes I think you do need one".
Ironically Funny.