John Piper and Tim Keller Wrestle with Sanctification
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2016
- John Piper and Tim Keller sat down to discuss the biblical vision of sanctification. In this 14-minute video they touch on how justification and sanctification relate, along with the psychological dynamics of faith.
00:20 - How Keller talks about sanctification
2:25 - What are we conforming to in sanctification?
3:45 - How does justification relate to sanctification?
6:40 - The psychological dynamics of faith
9:00 - What does it mean to “owe God everything”?
11:20 - “I'm going to work my tail off for Jesus, and it's all of grace.”
See the full resource at desiringGod.org/articles/piper...
One more thought on this topic. Think of a mother who has created with her own hands a beautiful flower garden of most precious and favorite flowers. Then one day she is in her home tending to a task when she is interrupted by dirty fist full of her flowers, uprooted and being offered to her with a loving smile by her child. Sure she owns the flowers already and did all of the work, but she smiles and accepts the loving intension. We are like children, in that we have nothing to give the One who created everything, even ourselves. However, if I can find a flower within myself or can blossom into something presentable, I owe it to my Creator. I sure hope I am the good enough soil for flowers to grow.
wow that's a beautiful illustration, thank you!
Terrible analogy 🤦🏻♀️
Completely agree Six pence none the richer! C s Lewis
❤
"if your faith is not producing love, it's not real."
Amen!
saving faith always produce love
Exactly
@ArchimedesBC
Exactly.
Read also James 1:27
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
There is sorrow in my heart because pastor Tim is not here anymore with us, but I have joy and comfort that he is with Our Lord and Saviour
"If you love me, you'll obey my commands." Justifying faith is a loving embrace of Christ. That same loving embrace yields loving obedience.
Jesus Christ lied and went to hell where all gentiles are today
I, sir, am a Calvinist, and I fail to see how anything I said conflicts with the doctrine of total depravity. Possessing a living faith in Christ saves, and that same living faith bears the fruit of love and obedience to Christ.
Will C Don't give up. If you haven't found people that are accepting. We should assemble to sing, and encourage, pray for one another and to learn and share.
I'll pray you find a place and don't give up until you find one. It doesn't even have to be in a "church" building. You could even start your own gathering.
The people are the church. Assemble together with other believers anywhere and do the things God has called us to do, when you do.
czcams.com/video/COgvEZK6ilY/video.html
Obedience that will lead you to do acts of love and charity towards your neighbors. Therefore if you do NOT do something to people in need (acts of charity in other words), then your faith ALONE doesn't save you.
well that was a great 15 min. 2 of my favourite teachers having discussions. Thanks.
I get hyped more and more in my walk with Christ when i come across to brothers in faith chopping it up as most of us do on a day to day basis especially leaders with wisdom
Wow, that 14 min. went by FAST! Can't get enough of this expository conversation and leadership with scriptural backing and reading assignments for the needy. Thanks for sharing!
An easy way to explain the need for good works is simply, imagine you have a best friend. They’ve been there for you, they’ve had your back, they’ve helped you when you needed help and time after time they’ve shown their unconditional friendship and love for you. So in turn, you WANT to help your friend. And the best way to help your best friend, is to help his best friend. And who is his best friend. Everyone.
the humility with which Pastor John speaks with his peer
Amazing teaching. .. "the beauty of the good." Praise GOD!"
oh Desiring God,what wld I do without this platform??🤗Thank you! !!
This was such a great conversation! Piper and Keller are always so thoughtful!
12:38 This is just perfect. Thank you.
Thank you very much for taking time to talk about this. It's so easy to get caught on the wrong side. I needed to hear this.
I am here because I heard of this great man's death today (May 19, 2023). See you at the resurrection TK.
Wish this conversation could go on longer and deeper! So inspiring and revealing!
Wow.. I could listen to these two for at least another hour...
It makes me happy when people talk about this topic and this style at the same time.
I could listen to these two banter on forever.
Wow, Keller still reads a lot to keep growing. So cool to see that come out in this great conversation.
Thank you Father for these men. Excellent under-shepherds.
Gold. Gonna have to watch this 10 more times.
Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit within the life of the believer to generate and develop Godly character and to carry out good works prepared by God. Justification is through faith and we express our faith through repentance or a turning away from sinful patterns (inner and outer).
Is justification a work of the holy spirit
@@aacc2216 justification is a “decision” (more so than a work) made by God to treat you as being righteous, even though you aren’t based on you own actions, but through the actions of Christ.
Definition is just a starting point..What is the SPECIFIC PROCESS that the HOLY SPIRIT uses to make a person righteous, separate them from sin and changes them to be like Christ/JESUS??
This conversation is rich, God honouring, and deserves several listenings from me
What a great conversation to be able to listen in on.
Blessing to watch.
Thank you!
This is a great preaching.wish I could translate into Chinese for my people in Taiwan.
Thank you! An important ,inspiring discussion. So thankful for both these teachers of God's Word. Tim Keller has lived and died well in Christ Jesus.
It's great to hear such thoughtful consideration of the Gospel. Iron shsrpening iron. RIP Keller!
I surrendered my life to Christ 4 months ago after struggling with anxiety and depression the suffering knocked me down into the dirt and as I was yelling for my heavenly father forgive me for running away living in sin and he came to me with open arms picking me up and dusting me off hugging me telling me he’ll never leave me he has always been there watching over me calling me back home into his loving embrace I know that nothing of this world will fill the void in my heart for the world will end but the love of God is forever I’ve finally filled my emptiness with Christ now I’m full never will I go hungry or thirsty and the life I now live is not my life but the life of Christ in me for Christ who was without sin laying his life down for sinners so that through him we will conquer sin that is death through his life I long to be with him and be like him I believe sanctification is such an important part of growing a relationship with God the father we must be willing to let go of worldly things see I idolized video games I spent 8 hours a days playing and when I wasn’t playing I was dreaming thinking talking about video games I loved video games my life revolved around video games I was trying to fill my emptiness with video games all it brought was false joy and happiness it wasn’t from God but from the world and I had to cut it out and put all my attention on God the source of joy peace love and everything that is good Christ is returning soon be ready brothers and sisters time is short
The greats! Piper and Keller.
Pray for these 2 servants of our living God🙏🏻
God bless them for showing the way to so many❤️
God bless you Brothers thanks for all the good work in Christ I know many people will boast about you guys on the day of the Lord. Grace to all of my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus on CZcams. Great is the Lord our God
they weren't finished when the video ended! I wanna hear the rest of that
love this , thank you for sharing ,I need to pray this for me too as we do a preaching course , not that I'm doing any preaching but it is about learning how to study the Bible more effectively
Beautiful Stuff! As a fellow seeker I puzzle over these things but joy in the ineffable”ness” of these things also!
I love both of these men and there ministries
Amen! Becoming like Christ, which is not by human efforts or merits but by the power and guidance of Holy Spirit.
Thank you!
Amen brother!
Two heretics. Unbelievable
Amen 💯%
8:48 “it’s motivated by joy” this is the best and most important thing said here. Period.
Otherwise it’s another heavy “to do” list added to people’s already hard lives, which would be absolutely ridiculous.
wow that never crossed my mind- that the more we walk in grace/due to grace, the greater our "debt" of grace becomes. I guess that's another way of thinking about how "grace abounds to me." Amazing is what grace will always be.
I really like these guys. Intelligent and honest, they do well to unpack this topic of santification I think. I am not a Calvinist by the way. God bless you guys. P.S - I love the idea 'debtor to grace'. Fab
Wow I just said that today to God. I had a rough night fighting resentment and anger that I felt the tough out of alignment. I know Gods peace and contentment that I don’t want to go back to my old ways and be blinded by grieving the Holy Spirit. God is good he worked it out in me and I am back on track
Two great men of faith we get to see and hear in our generation. Maybe the last two of this kind.
Thank you for this video.
Great conversation and insight. The horns in the background are the most New York thing ever.
This brings to mind when I was 13 and the thought came into my mind that all my life I was getting and getting from God and never giving. I wanted to give back so I sought to obey him by getting baptized and going with our youth leader out into the streets to pass out tracks even though as an introvert, it was it was very uncomfortable for me.
We owe a debt... that we can't repay.
We stand empty handed before Him, yet we stand by His Grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone.
False lordship teaching. Basically a catholic gospel.
Amen
@@getrit3007Catholic gospel? Catholicism doesn’t teach that we are saved only by the blood of Jesus Christ. This whole idea that a person is good enough to go to Heaven based on their own good works/merit is a popular lie being caught in Catholicism and other religions. And it’s spreading like wildfire.
@@bighand1530 catholic gots this gospel: ccc 2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
A.W. Pink says it very well in the following quote:
Just as the sinner's despair of any hope from himself is the first prerequisite of a sound conversion, so the loss of all confidence in himself is the first essential in the believer's growth in grace.
We can't perform for God we are fully accepted, perfected by the sacrifice of Christ. We are complete in Christ. Now our focus should be in loving God and others as God loves us. Or mental focus changes from i can keep the law to I'm not able . This is what sets us free from a performance trap. We can't keep the law that's the point. So surrender to God and allow his Spirit to gradually change us. Life in the spirit.
This video was very helpful. I think that Christians will always need help understanding the difference between justification and sanctification. Much thanks to Tim and John.
Well these guys don’t understand it.
God bless! DesiringGod helps me a lot! Just a lotttt
This was very insightful.
THUMBS UP brothers!!! Thank you!
very healthy conversation about the gospel
First time I heard blessing and cursing as 'remedial' for those not understanding the love of God. It is true. Christ loved us in spite of owning heaven itself. Why? Heaven has so much love stored up that He wanted to give us all a preview in his coming so that blessed or not, we love. Overwhelming! Great lesson in sanctification without which none will see God.
excellent discussion. thank you!
Great video, thanks for sharing.
(Side note, interesting this is from 2012)
Wow how come no one has responded to you here in this comment section?
What happened in 2012?
@@stefan.vincent he was saying that the interview was actually done in 2012, the video was uploaded in 2016.
I love the way he preface his answer as coming from a Presbyterian. Important nuance because they are fundamentally operating from a different perspective of theology. I think it also shows his understanding that there might be some difference.
POWERFUL GUYS VERY INSPIRATIONAL SPEAKERS CLASS..... AWESOME..GOD BLESS YOU ALL
They are not inspirational speakers class, Valirie Tompkins. Unlike many other preachers work to please people while they teach, these guys especially Piper to the best of my knowledge does not at all! He is a pioneering preacher of the Gospel.
How great is the one that saved me!
Wow, love you guys. 😊 Jesus is Lord 👑
awesome discussion
This was an amazing talk. I am a Catholic Christian and the crossroads of salvation and sanctification is always hard for me to wrap my head around. This video was so helpful!
That’s really interesting. Out of curiosity if you identify as Catholic, do you then believe in a saved by works salvation? As this video helps us understand that we are saved by grace alone and not of our own works as the bible says.
Tim ,God bless you, till we are united again
:0...I love these two wonderful men of God.
Dangggggggggg. Going deeper into His grace even in obedience🤯 and how there’s no limit to what He can ask because He is our sufficiency. Fwehehego
Great discussion
A desire to delight and please Him yes!
Sanctification and and maturity goes together always no matter how hard the process, yet our relationship/intimacy with God makes the dividing line.
I like it how the Lord put it in that parable (Luke 17:10), that of all the good we have done, as an outwork of sanctification (through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit); we account as our DUTY (a DEBT as the duo have put it) enabled ONLY by His Spirit (by grace as Mr. Piper rightfully quotes Apostle Paul).
I love these.
A.W. Pink says it very well in the following quote:
Just as the sinner's despair of any hope from himself is the first prerequisite of a sound conversion, so the loss of all confidence in himself is the first essential in the believer's growth in grace.
We owe him everything. We've been saved by faith.
Thanks for this! I picture faith as the candy and works led by faith as the lovely-looking wrapping paper. Both are possible and good because of God’s grace, and it’ll be ridiculous to only care about the fancy paper but not the candy inside. The candy is why the wrapping paper has its function.
“In fact, this is love for God: to keep His commands. And His commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.”-1 John 5:3-4
Sanctification. Holiness.
“Washed and set apart.”
You have been washed and set apart for God.
You have been made Holy.
I owe it to my parents that I exist but they don't expect a repayment. I owe it to my Heavenly Father and His Son that I am a child of God but no repayment expected!!!!! That Grace caused my sanctification. If not, then I am trying to cause it, showing a lack of trust in the finished work of the Cross. Now I am owed wages (Romans 4) and have fallen from grace (Gal. 5). Just rest in the Finished Work and accept that you have already been accepted, In Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think I've been this invested in the comment section in a long time.
Thank you.
"...because of the beauty of the Good, youd like that term". LOL Keller
Two humble men in Christ willing to reflect yet take correction BUT more than happy to stand for the truth where it counts. Amazing discussion - 2 Timothy 2:23-24 -
23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Praise God - how can we NOT live for HIM.
Wow praise God
I could never repay my debt to God.. because I’m so thankful that He saved me I show my gratitude by obedience. My disobedience is the reason He had to go to the Cross because I cannot save myself. I’m not repaying I’m loving ..doing what comes natural when you are truly grateful. Not expecting to gain anything for my obedience.
I also think that the Gospel, issuing forth in Sanctification should produce an increasing depth of awareness on our part of our sinfulness and the gulf that increasingly gets wider and further away form God's holiness which should bring another awareness that the only thing big enough and powerful enough to bridge the widening gap between our sinfulness and God's holiness is the Gospel. We are not only saved by the Gospel, but we must also live by it as well.
Given who we are left to our own devices and who God is, it's fitting that we should wrestle with these things. It's not surprising that understanding the process of sanctification would be alien to our fallen modus operandi.
Exactly what works shall I do to be saved, and what shouldn't I do in what point in my life to be saved?
There can be a major problem with using sanctification as a sign of saving faith. That is if I judge my salvation by my works. Many will always be fearful that they are not truly saved because they do not show enough sanctification. I think we should trust in God for our sanctification and salvation. If we wonder about our own salvation then we need to trust in Him and not look to see how well we are preforming.
It is better to be afraid without reason than feel safe while reality differs.
What you say is true, but necessary for finding those who are not actually saved.
Okay but why do you have to choose either? Why not be afraid because you are truly saved? I think you have only presented a false dichtomy.
Carl Peterson Just weigh your priorities. Perfect love will drive out unnecessary fear.
Okay. That is why I am against using how much we believe we have been sanctified in this world to judge our salvation. I am glad you agree.
isn't that what Paul means though by "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"? that fear causes more self awareness which leads to greater repentance and further sanctification. no?
Most people, if we believe, DON'T think we can live any way we want. The more we sin, the more hell we catch here on earth in this life. And, once we believe, our conscience (The Holy Spirit), guides us in our choices.
💯
The moment we believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ are we from the point in time holy? I believe we are are holy! I mean, positional sanctification and Justification. And in our day to day walk with the Lord we are progressively sanctified, We are being transformed from one degree of glory to another into the perfect image of King Jesus Christ by the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is what I believe sanctification is.Thanks to Dr, John Piper and Tim Keller for making clearer this doctrine. Reading through the comments of many, I again thank PIPER and KELLER for the presentation. I believe they could not have presented all the Biblical evidences and the contrary views to this subject given the time limit.
Mbanga Peter
May 7, 2017
WOW! Actually, Mbanga, **Ephesians 1.3-13 says that God did all that you said for us before the foundation of the world, for the praise of His Glorious Grace!** HOW AWESOME IS THAT! WOW, AGAIN, TO OUR AWESOME GOD AND TO HIS MAGNIFICENT SON, JESUS CHRIST, NOW AND FOREVERMORE!!
"Not I but the grace of God". I understand it like this. God's grace created the desire. Paul acted on that desire and God's grace provided the motivation but much more than just motivation, but also the drive to work harder. I see this to be so true in my life. My desire to know God is unnatural. I wasn't always like this. As a matter of fact, I was content to be a lost and depraved person. I would have preferred to stay that way without experiencing any of the negative consequences of that life. But God's grace made me alive. And that grace works in me to have the will to do what he desires. But having a will without doing is no good. So I act out of my will to do the desire he plants in me, and when I do that, it is as if he pours oil and gas into the engine to give me the drive, so I can't seem to let it go. Oh that I may know him. Whatever means are necessary!
Amen. Finally the Protestant world finally seems to be coming back to what the Catholic Church has said the Bible teaches all along.
God’s grace allows us the ability and the free will to Trust Him with our whole heart, mind and soul. And when we realize the sheer majesty and splendor of our Creator we fall down on our knees and worship him deeply out of reverence, devotion, respect and love. We obey Him not to earn our Salvation but out of a desire to submit ourselves to Him. And we do this every day.
And all prayer, the Mass, Eucharist, all the commandments, all the rules and regulations are there to help us Trust Him more every day AND also to make sure our Christian CULTURE honors and demonstrates our love for our LORD so that others will see His majesty and lordship and come to know and Trust Him also.
Dang. What a duo. Trio, I should say, considering the Holy Spirit with these two
jesus is lord
Amen he is King!
I think of GLAD singing A Debtor To Mercy - "A debtor to mercy alone
Of covenant mercy I sing
I come with Your righteousness on
My humble offering to bring
The judgments of Your holy law
With me can have nothing to do
My Savior’s obedience and blood
Hide all my transgressions
From view " "The work which Your goodness began
The arm of Your strength will complete
Your promise is yes and amen
And never was forfeited yet
The future or things that are now
No power below or above
Can make You Your purpose forego
Or sever my soul from Your love
" "My name from the palms of Your hands
Eternity will not erase
Impressed on Your heart it remains
In marks of indelible grace
Yes I, to the end will endure
Until I bow down at Your throne
Forever and always secure
Forever and always secure
Forever and always secure
A debtor to mercy alone "
I don't contend for ongoing sin I'm making a point of that we do still sin I'm not saying we continue in sin I'm talking about the struggle with sin which never ends
Does anyone know if there is a longer version of this video anywhere? It seems to cut off pretty quickly at the end.
we always had to keep the laws I love this teaching wow as an Israelite you hardly ever heard this speech from Christian pastors.
The Genesis Mishpacha
May 7, 2017
We don't keep God's Law to get saved, but how would we know what displeases our Holy God if He took His Law completely from us? **Galatians 3.24-25 says, Therefore the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come we are no longer under a tutor.** Everything God does has a purpose, and He gave the Law so that we would see how terribly sinful we are and that we could not keep His Laws by our selves, and then run to His Son, Jesus, to save us. God is so merciful and gracious to us! That's why JESUS CHRIST walked on this earth for 33 perfect years, to fulfill God's Law completely for us, but not to take away His Beautiful Law! Then, He took His Perfect Life and Body and Blood to the cross, shed His Perfect Blood, gave His Life and Body, and then died in our place and was raised from the dead to satisfy His Father's Justice and to give us His Righteousness to stand before our Holy, Just God on that Great Day that's coming sooner than the world knows and to save us from the second death, which is hell! How merciful is He! We sin against God, but He died in our place, taking the punishment for us and even gives us His Righteousness to stand before our Holy God without fear of His Righteous Judgement! WOW! GIVE ALL THANKS AND HONOR AND PRAISES TO THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST AND TO HIS AWESOME SON, FOR HIS GREAT LOVE, MERCY, AND PATIENCE WITH AND FOR US, HIS CREATURES. SOMETHING SATAN REALLY HATES, AND MORE THAN WHAT MOST OF US KNOW, IS THAT OUR MERCIFUL GOD HAS ALWAYS BEEN FOR US! SO, THANK HIM, NOW AND FOREVERMORE!!
Sanctification is (in part) acclimatization to the environments of living with God for eternity.
Our debt to God for our existence and to Jesus for our salvation can never be repaid. So working like you're trying to repay a debt doesn't make any sense you're working for the master he who owns you. And loves you.
Awesome
Sanctification and Transformation is the process of Salvation and to ENDURE.
Sanctification is the fruit of justification.