High-pivot hype? Deviate Highlander Vs Forbidden Druid review | Mountain Bike RIder
Vložit
- čas přidán 31. 07. 2021
- It seems like you can’t open social media or a magazine these days without seeing a new bike with an idler suspension design. Only recently we've seen launches for the new Cannondale Jekyll and Norco Range, both four-bar suspension designs with, you guessed it... idlers.
And it’s not just Cannondale and Norco who are pumping up the high-pivot hype, spy shots are already circulating of prototype bikes from Devinci, GT and others, all rocking idlers. So once again, what’s old is new, as high-pivot idler designs have been drifting in and out of downhill racing for over two decades with various degrees of success.
Why the sudden proliferation in the enduro bike category? To answer that question we need to wind the clock back 10 years to when SRAM launched XX1, the first mass produced 1x11 drivetrain. Because without it, and the subsequent 1x12 drivetrains, no usable idler equipped enduro bikes would exist today.
But it’s not just the gravity focused bikes that are taking advantage of 1x drivetrains to rethink longstanding beliefs and further decouple the suspension and drivetrain. Forbidden and Deviate both early converts.have trail bikes boasting high single-pivot suspension designs with fully rearward axle paths. The basic idea being that the rear wheel moves back and up over the bumps, while the idler eliminates the adverse effects of the associated pedal kick back that would normally come along for the ride.
So what better head to head test, than the Deviate Highlander 140 and Forbidden Druid XT? As the name suggests the Deviate Highlander has 140mm travel while the Forbidden Druid pumps out 130mm. Both bikes have full carbon frames and both are built around 150mm forks, although you also have the option to run 160mm forks to further slacken the geometry.
Being shorter-travel trail bikes both are rolling on 29in wheels. The Deviate Highlander has clearance for a 2.8in rear tyre but doesn’t recommend mulleting the bike. Contrast that with Forbidden’s attitude; the aftermarket Ziggy Link, that partially corrects the geometry for the smaller 27.5in rear wheel, actively encouraging it. We say partially corrects, as the mullet set-up will still have a slightly lower BB height and slacker angles.
At 15.05kg and 14.85kg respectively, the Deviate and Forbidden can not be classed as Down County, as it would only take a thicker casing front tyre and bigger rotors to push them squarely into the enduro bike weight class. For reference, the 170mm travel Nukeproof Giga that we tested in the May issue tipped the scales at 15.56kg.
So it’s clear that both the Deviate Highlander 140 and the Forbidden Druid XT are built for the hardcore end of trail riding. But will either one live up to the high-pivot hype? Time to find out.
To read the full reviews, check out these links:
www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/full-su...
www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/full-su...
Click here to subscribe: / mbrmagaz. .
More at:
MBR: www.mbr.co.uk/
Facebook: / mbrmagazine
Twitter: / mbrmagazine
Instagram: / mbrmagazine. . - Sport
This is probably one of the most nuanced bike discussion videos I've seen. It really went deep into the nitty, gritty, nerdy details, that many videos from the big magazines sometimes gloss over. 10/10 would recommend 👍
Cheers, much appreciated!
100%, especially swapping shocks to find out how the frames respond to it was super interesting
Fully agree with. The majority of videos out there just about how awesome bikes they review and as cons only pricing is mentioned.
Agree with DragonBornish - for years now your youtube vids have had the most relatable and insightfull content on youtube - smashing pinkbike, vital, and beta etc out of the park. So much more detail and info. I know the mag - which I also buy - is the priority but I think you should do more vids too!
I don’t agree that rearward travel doesn’t count. It helps get over bumps therefore it counts.
Also once a fork is pointed downwards such that it is at 90 degrees to horizontal, you suddenly get all the travel you paid for just when you needed it.
Exactly, he was completely wrong on that. The whole point of rearward travel is that it allows the rear tire to get over bumps without hanging up. It sure as hell counts.
The way mbr measures things is total bullshit. They always measure the geometry with a tape measure and a protractor on what is most likely uneven ground, whereas the manufacturers measure them in a jig to the nanometer
23min video without crappy commercials. Best video of 2021 :)
Thanks!
We need a deviate claymore vs forbidden dreadnough discussion!! 🤘🤘
Need another one of these videos for 2024.... 👍
Funny, I was just looking for a comparison video of these two bikes the other day. Well done!
Great review, there is one thing ive noticed with these high pivot idler pully bikes and that is the derailleur cage gets pulled forward in every compression ,its certainly going to give the derailleur clutch a good working over.
Great reviews and deep discussions. I am riding a Druid with a Fox DHX2 (w 550 enduro spring) running a fairly high rebound and it is really coming to life. I actually am running it mullet as well and the manual ability increases. It is still a short travel bike and you can't expect it to hammer out big drops and harsh tech landing one after another but I have to say, the bikes improve as you tune them deeper and creates a super fun, modern design trail rider that can still just hammer it in the park...with a limiter switch in the travel length. So for this old guy, I am digging it. Thanks gents.
Great professional review, pls more of this
AMAZING review. Thanks. I just purchased the V2 of the Druid. I don't have it in hand yet, but now I have some background. Excellent stuff. Subscribed.
Thanks and enjoy the Druid. We actually have a video on the new Druid which should be going live in the next week or so.
@@MBRmagazinedid the druid v2 vid come out yet?
I am really curious about the improvements from v1
So refreshing to see a review that is not just blowing smoke up your ass about how wonderful every bike is. whether his takes are right or wrong, i have more respect and give more weight to his reviews because he is not just regurgitating the press release talking points.
great discussion. Really enjoyed this vid and loved the analysis!
As a very recent owner of a Druid frame , you make some interesting points... Some of which I agree with, some I don't.
My other bike is Gemoteron G1 and the druid frame replaced a pole hard tail - part swap.
I don't agree on the druid sizing. I'm 195cm and being used to ultra long bikes... with a 50mm stem... it fits me fine. Its short length makes it more agile IME and I don't feel cramped.
I also don't agree on the lack of pop / manual ability. Compared to the G1 and pole it's significantly better and good enough to have fun on. I find it encourages you to pop off each feature - but I'm a lot heavier so maybe the shock tune suits me better.
On the suspension performance, I do think it offers more than your normal 130mm bike. Over roots and rock gardens, I was dropping my heals awaiting the hit... It was nowhere near what I would have expected. But I agree - small bump isn't great.
I do agree, it is a confused bike. Way too heavy for a 130mm trail bike. My old insurgent was lighter, climbed better, and had more travel. I too wondered why they set travel at 130 when for pretty much no additional weight, you could have 150mm. But wondered whether you lost some pop at 150mm.
However, it does have an indescribable quality to it... I find myself taking the druid out way more than my other bikes...more than it just being new.
Hard to work out who it is aimed at.
I’m interested in knowing what you like about it? I’m on a hardtail right now too looking to go to a Druid. It caught my eye cause I’m from Florida and I don’t need much travel. But after doing research idk if it’s good for our trails which have short punchy climbs and short descents.
@@ShoneDaddy
Best advice is to demo one really - If possible try and test one against the equivalent travel Evil and Yetis.
What I like is the way it absorbs roots and rocks -they just never seem to hit through your feet like you'd expect...doesnt smother the trail though so you still feel the trail.
It is heavy though so for very long climbs, I'd look elsewhere.
If I was buying again it would be close between the Evil Offering and this... I've had an evil in the past so fancied a change.
@@takegoodcareoftheforestdew5339 So it sounds like smooth-Ish terrain isn’t what this bike was intended for?
@@ShoneDaddy
I'd suggest not. They're also a useless company to get hold of. They've just screwed up a parts order and have not responded to two emails.
I'd go 140mm Evil, Transition, or Yeti for a good all to under trail bike.
Loved my insurgent.
@@takegoodcareoftheforestdew5339 100% agree with you, had the chance to ride a druid and the suspension felt almost botemless! as for how well it manuals, it was probably the easiest bike to manual I've ridden
Best bike review I've seen in ages!
Thank you for this detailed review ! I was thinking of buying a second hand Druid frame size L... but actually my 2019 Trek FEX (heavily tuned 150/136mm Fox36/X2) can definitely handle bikeparks... really thorough review very informative... let's see how it evolves from here... I'll pass on the Gen1 high pivot trail bikes
Great Video, much details on the high pivot pros and contras. Im still trying to figure out if a Norco Range or a Dreadnought is worth the high pricetag or if I sould go with something like the Giga witch isnt cheap either :D anyway I want a new bike.
Thanks!
What about Banshee Titan!
Why didn't you add volume spacers for the kitsuma shock ? Also the 150 is more progressive and i'm curious how this shock will perform with volume spacers.
Great job on explaining High pivot bikes. Also wonder if the longer chain stretches less than standard chain over same length of time?
Thanks! Regarding chain 'stretch', it should be no different, since it's not actually stretch but wear.
Great review and discussion. I'm the proud (and happy) owner of a 2019 Druid. Ride it mostly in Vancouver BC and Bellingham WA, but have spent the last 2 months in Southwest Colorado and am surprised at how well it rides on more of the "ups and downs" of rolling rocky singletrack here. I'm super interested to learn how Forbidden may change up the shock tunes further, but from what it sounds like, I'm glad I have the "original" shock tune. Still, have been considering a "lighter" coil, like the DHX2, but now I see there is a Push Eleven Six "micro" which might be the ticket. I certainly don't want to make my bike any heavier. While it may be heavy - and for long 8 mile fire road climbs I'd want something else ideally - for technical or semi-tech climbing, the tracking of the rear tire is amazing. With the oval ring I'm using, there are so many sections I just could not get past that I'm able to easily ride now. Honestly shocking as I'm not that strong (I don't think, compared to what seems like everyone else on the trail anyway haha!).
One comment that I haven't seen is how damn well this frame and suspension design sheds mud and debris. I ride in some super muddy stuff in the PNW and one small hose shot and everything flushes out so easily (not that a lot collects anywhere in the first place). I love how pivot bikes ride (and transitions), but man, I see sooo many gnawed up frames from mud and rocks getting caught in the rear pivot area. That NEVER happens to my bike (nor do I think it will, after 2 years of riding).
Oh, and I'll take a "8" rating from you guys - I'd say that's pretty darn good. Though I've been looking to find your overall bike rates and find what bikes got a "10"?? [EDIT - FOUND IT]
What bikes got a 10???
When else do you compare a 130-140mm trail bike vs a 170-180 enduro giga? There is 30mm difference in the fork alone, of course your guna feal it more.
There is a myth that, in some way a high-pivot offers magical bump-swallowing properties, and we're simply pointing out that there this is no substitute for travel on rough tracks.
@@MBRmagazine I see what your saying but I would have to say it's not a myth, but it also has it's limits. Compare it to another 130mm design with similar spec and see what ya think. I will say though the dpx2 on the druid, does it no favours. Or back to back a big travel high pivot bike with another big travel enduro rig.
@@altank8 whats wrong with dpx2? Bike needs low-volume air can, which dpx fits right there.
@@laurynasjagelo5075 it will work for some people and their riding style but not for my kind of riding or style.
Throw the new Norco Range in that mix
Great review thanks guys ! What about the new druid V2 ?
Thanks! We have a written review here: www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/mullet-mx/forbidden-druid-v2-gx-fx-review
Nice and honest . Thanks
Really great review.
I’m really interested in the Dreadnought and hoping to demo one in October. Are you reviewing one soon?
We have a first ride review on our website, MBR.co.uk 👍
Will you release a long term review?
Fabulous and insightful review, it may be worth mentioning that these bikes will eat through front chainrings faster than a conventional type of layout. I would love to see some long term reviews of both of these bikes if possible.
Nope.. been riding mine for a year now minimal wear after 2800km
For my Druid I have the ziggy link with cascade components and a eleven six shock and it makes a huge difference.
Glad to hear that, but how much did all that cost on top of the original frame?
Luckily I have discounts but that being said still expensive, but I figured when building the bike I wanted it to be exactly what wanted. So cost was an after thought.
@@MBRmagazine truly a one of the kind build
You guys are great. The real deal
Awesome video! Love the detail, like others have stated already 👍🏻👍🏻
Well that's a Review!!Interesting
Loving another honest review from you both. I’m going to buy my next bike based heavily with your opinion in mind. Guys, which bike should I buy?!...
Thanks! But you'll have to narrow it down a bit!
@@MBRmagazine ok I was being a bit facetious 6 months ago, but now I really need some advice. Should I get a Slash 9.8 XT or an SJ EVO Elite Alloy? Now I know what you’re thinking....they ain’t even close, but I have my reasons. Here’s some context though: I ride a mixture of trail centres, some less crazy bike parks (as in I won’t be hitting the 40 footers) and the occasional enduro event. I’m not particularly harsh on components and the price difference isn’t a consideration as I won’t be paying RRP. (Don’t worry it’s all legit!). Your insight would be most welcome 🙏🏻
My Highlander weighs 14.3kgs. ant that with a coil fork. You do have pretty heavy builds. BTW: Deviate has changed the seals on the bike and there's not that much stiction anymore.
Builds were supplied as standard by both brands - we changed the tyres for control tyres, but everything else was stock.
@@MBRmagazine I guess that’s the problem. I think that buyers of these brands rather go for a custom build.
@@harzenduro exactly what I did, and add-up weight is currently 31.6 lb (14.3kg) w/ tire insert, sealant, tape, cables, pedals, all the misc bits in there.
The Corsair Marque could use a front derailleur with a high pivot idler, as the idler was on an axle and could move side to side with the chain.
im getting Corsair Maelstrom 2012 soon tho
Surely a massive advantage with the Deviates long seatpost & rearward suspension path is no tyre hitting your arse?.and grease ports are another win win in U.K. ...
The quality of this review is absolutely top notch! The detailed explanations of why certain things feel the way they do really make it stand out! Three questions remain for me: 1. Did you notice the absence of pedal kickback or thereby introduced suspension stiffening when going down the hill? 2. How noticeable was the additional drag introduced by the idler? 3. Did the suspension stiffen up during braking due to the high single pivot layout?
Thanks! In answer to your questions, no, we didn't feel any noticeable pedal kickback from either bike. One thing we wanted to do, but ran out of time, was to run the Deviate with the chain routed directly to the cassette rather than around the idler and see just how much pedal kickback it generated and how much we could feel through the pedals. If we get a chance we will still try that experiment. 2. Any additional drag was small enough as to have minimal impact on the efficiency of the drivetrain. In other words, it didn't bother us. 3. High Pivot bikes do generally have higher levels of anti-rise, but again we didn't feel that there was excessive stiffening under braking. Perhaps that's something that would become more obvious on a longer travel bike on rougher tracks, but without trying it, we couldn't say for sure. Hope that helps!
thanks.🎯
Finally MBR found someone who can actually get into the proper detail of a bike.
Both Alan and Danny have worked for MBR for 20 years!
What is the warranty and return policy?
As usual, top notch content from mbr. Cheers
Surprised the reviewer did not look at the falling away progressive leverage curves of both of these bikes and discuss why a coil shock makes a lot of sense. Especially with the deviate, which is regressive/linear at the very top of the stroke, a coil shock, on paper, makes far more sense than an X2 or other air can, especially low volume air cans. I also am surprised the reviewer did not discuss anti rise (brake jack), as both of these bikes have a lot of anti rise, sit into the travel when braking. This should affect handling noticeably.
The Deviate 150 is specced with a Coil on the basket if you want it..👍🏻
Shit just got complicated!
I'd love me a Deviate for sure though.
pretty good review, but the suspension is by no means bad. It is not as small bump compliant as I thought it would be after hearing all this shit about how planted HP bikes are. But it isn't unplanted either. It's also not-unpoppy like many are saying. Agree that shock tune could be the issue and am running all my damping full open. Not mentioned is that the bike pedals really well. I keep it unlocked for climbing which I never have on any of my smaller travel bikes. When I get to ledge a little blip on the pedals and it goes right up and over.
I had the exact same thoughts about my Druid before selling it. Amazing bike but too heavy for the amount of travel and intended use, it did not pedal like other 125mm bikes do(Spur, Following)...
I think most of these rearward axle path / high pivot bikes are too heavy and complicated(eg new Range)). The Stumpy Evo has a fairly rearward axle path at the beginning, and paired with a device like O'CHAIN I think it gives you a simpler solution to essentially the issue at hand; better suspension performance and less pedal kick back. Personally I think if O'chain catches up with a friendlier price tag it will be the end of high pivot bikes.
Stumpy Evo has maybe 1 or 2mm rear ward axle path initially. It’s barely worth mentioning. But it’s a brilliant bike regardless! 👍
What you’re talking about is distance vs displacement.
I wonder if anyone has ever done any double blind testing to determine whether or not "bearing drag" (or indeed bush drag) is a real thing. While I accept there will be a small measurable difference, I find it a bit hard to believe that it would be perceptible or indeed actually significant in real world usage.
Most bike engineers/product managers we've spoken to have said they've had to go up a shock tune when they've switched from a bushing eyelet to a bearing shock eyelet.
@@MBRmagazine I could believe that, but I'm sceptical regarding the same comparison between two different types of bearing with alternative levels of sealing. The forces involved in the extra bearing drag are at least a couple of orders of magnitude smaller than the shock spring force. It seems unlikely to me that anybody would actually be able to feel a difference, but that's just supposition. Someone needs to test it.
11:28 there you have it. would be good to put a data acquisition system to know for real.
first rule of mtn bike fight club...
Shhhhhhh😉
Alright here we go, should I get the Deviate 140 or Forbidden Druid ? (Yes, I watched the video).
🤣
I hear ye! Maybe cost and availability is the answer for you?
@@Daffy0208 gonna just stick with my Santa Cruz 5010 this year. Just bought the wife a Transition Scout so I'm broke now 😆
@@BWT599 How are they liking the Scout?
@@LastAphelion my wife really likes it. I'm still on the Santa Cruz 5010, but about to install my new Hustle Labs magnet flat pedals.
@@BWT599 Oh yeah I've been curious about mag pedals
Great article, I love what these companies are doing but have zero interest in high pivot bikes for regular duties, average performance , complex and costly are 3 reasons I'd not bother, those who feel they need high pivot are well catered for. If this is the future I'll eat my words.
well the trek session is a high pivot XD
Lmao everything looks like a Session 😂 I remember that
Interesting perspective. Although I'm not sold on a higher leverage ratio is great for everyone as suggested here.
A well produced and delivered viewpoint though, and avoids a lot of the hype.
GT Force review, please.
We've got a first ride review on the website, MBR.co.uk
Run Forest run! 😂
Bullseye!
With the price of sram x01 chains I think I will stick to my lovely regular bike.
the guy speaks with two accents
Bla bla bla bla bla, 😴
Suspension wise, it's a simple singlepivot.
Yes it as an iddler, giving it further maintenance than a normal single pivot.
Personally I like single pivot. Yes it has it's highs/lows, but one thing I do know, is that I wouldn't like a iddler.
People should spend money on ride technic, because today, we strugle to find "bad bikes".
PS- yeah...high pivot, rear arc, bla,bla,bla.
These reviews and comparisons are getting worst and worst. All kind of contradictions in 23 minutes.
Overy completely engineering solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Have you ridden one?
Waste of time. More expensive to buy. You cry more when you break it. And really... been riding mtb since 90s... do we really need this.
Give me a triple ring 9 speed rear any day. All you will ever need. Full suspension is great to.
But all this ... nah