The Last Cavalry Swords: British Army & Indian Army Cut vs Thrust
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
- The last cavalry swords of the British and Indian Armies, cut vs thrust.
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Matt, if you were magically transported back to the early 19th century, and awoke wearing an independent mercenary army/cavalry officers uniform, with a chest of gold at your feet, what type of sword would you design for yourself, your officers and troopers?
I greatly wish to know the answer to this
not nearly enough context here :P
Depends on where he is and the makeup of his band, I think.
@@eldorados_lost_searcher I'm guessing Mike Inez, William DuVall, Sean Kinney and Jerry Cantrell. From his t-shirt at least.
he makes a very good argument for the CJM pattern sword in "The BEST SWORD ever? British 1788 pattern heavy cavalry sword" and with added consideration and detail "Best Sword Design Ever Made? Maybe BUT......"
Another great History lesson. I especially like the Indian aspect. I've been to India and love the country and it is great to hear about their involvement with the British military. That Indian Cavalry sword is beautiful; blade perhaps reminiscent of the 1796 Light Cavalry sabre ... or Talwar. Thank you once again for your great presentation. Cheers!
The service sharpening of the thrusting-exclusive blade still allows for the blade to cut its way in and out of the thrust, reducing the force needed for entry and withdrawal, so it's still of some benefit, even if limited! Given the option between a sharpened or unsharpened thrusting sword I'd choose the sharpened one every time.
Extracting a sword from your opponent is often a parry in and of itself.
Also, even if you can't cut with an edge, you can still bind with it.
Very interesting, we need a serie about the last cavalry sword/sabre of all the countries involved in WWI AND WWII.
Thanks for this fascinating dive into an aspect of military history I knew nothing about.
☝️😎
Absolutely fascinating Matt , never really had much of an interest in swords from WW1 but you’ve changed my mind
Great video and fantastic shirt, Matt
Fantastic Matt another peace of history brought to light .... cheers
I’m really glad that you got your had on one of those hybrid Indian cavalry swords. I had found one of those in an antique weapons website which seemed interesting to me. Thanks for all the information!
Thank you Matt. In the period Yeomanry regiments were trained as mounted infantry and had to be retrained as cavalry upon reaching France in 1914. Not to mention being at the end of the queue for kit. That leather clad 1908 Pattern would be very difficult for an officer to legitimately acquire from regimental stores. He was to buy his own sword. I think that your example was to the 1908 Pattern, but bought privately direct from the maker rather than drawn from regimental stores. He certainly could not muck about with the material without getting into trouble as it had to remain true to the troopers pattern and thus be fit for issue to any trooper. Items in regimental stores had to be subject to inventory and inspection and this would not pass and the store would be short of one sword. Nice sword though.
Perhaps, Wilkinsons had a good marketing team in those days. "Officers! Tired of having worse kit than your chaps? Searching for a decent sword to stick it to the Beastly Boche, Johnny Frenchman or some fiendish Pathan? Then seek no further because J Wilkinson and Son have developed the M1908 Officer version available for private purchase. All the same wondrous killing power that His Majesty's Government issues the rank and file but with the little touches that distinguish a gentleman from the hot polloi. Just enquire at one of our exclusive agents for more details."
The advert can probably be found in a back issue of the Gentleman's Gazette or the Army and Navy Times.😀
The Yeomanry really came into their own in Palestine
I had always thought that I was most interested in things like cutlasses and sabres. But this has utterly intrigued me! I was fascinated! I suppose you really did your job! [Thank you]. Perhaps it has to do with my grandfather fighting in trenches in WWI [Us]. I think late war, though I was still too young when he passed and never heard the stories. I suspect it was late - though I understand still in the mess - because he had an entire locker of German weapons... Thank you for this! Somehow, knowing any of that history, Us, British, or ANY nation, has felt like closure. [I am 66]
I like your taste in music, all t-shirts are awesome!
Another great video, and also a great shirt
Very interesting, and to be honest I like that hybrid Indian sword you showed toward the end.
Thanks for the video
Another brilliant video Matt! I still want a 1908 to go with my 1897. The 1908 seems to go with mechanised warfare and in a way lives on in the bayonet attached to firearms. Swords don't run out of bullets.
Just noticed the Alice in Chains shirt, Mike Inez is a cool bassist.
The leather covered example may well be a Warrant Officer's sword, given there were only 31 cavalry regiments at the time there couldn't be more than a couple of hundred examples made before WW1.
I was wondering, once more complex hand protection became popular, how long after did traditional cross-guard hilts stay in Europe for? Did they all evolve into more complex hilts or did many stay at the same time and if so, why would someone prefer a cross-guard when a more protective alternative exists?
It makes it easier to carry, the Scottish units with the Basket Hilts actually had a crossguard they could put on instead. Quite rare to see surviving examples that come with both but you can easily see 1 or the other.
Cross guards are far cheaper and easier to make and hand fit than basket hilts for one thing. A basket hilt is a complex thing that has to be made just so in order to meet the pommel end of the grip without placing stresses on it. When you need to produce hundreds or thousands of swords, you’re likely to go with cross guards to keep the budget down and to get delivery as soon as possible.
I strongly suspect that officers would move to custom made basket hilts while ordinary soldiers would have to make do with “mass produced” cross guards for a long time.
There’s also fighting style and skill level to consider. The great mass of foot soldiers are not going to be expert swordsmen executing intricate passes, they’re going to be more hack and slash about it, going for the head, arms and torso, not so much the hand. Officers will be better skilled and better practiced, so a basket hilt will serve them better.
Also, in this time, the most common thing a person with a sword is going to encounter is close combat is a enemy with a rifle with a bayonet mounted on it and his sword would be used in either mounted ambushes or trench raids, fencing woith another swordsman would almost never happen, so more handprotection is kinda superflous. Finally, crossguards are easier to wear and less finicky to draw out. @@markfergerson2145
Light Horse in Australia, The belief the the Australian light horse didn't use swords is wrong ,some of the colonial military were trained in swords but did not go to war in 1914 with swords, later in the war they were reintroduced.
I have a regimentally marked 1908p to the 19 AD , who performed the last Canadian cavalry charge 😊. It’s all about the history 😊
Nice sword drawing sound and cutting air sound between 16:02-16:08.🗡️⚔️😁😂👍✌️🙏
Someone has stolen his superdry shirt
Thank you so much for all the great information.
I do have one question.
How much training did the Officers and Trooper have before they were given their swords?
I’m thinking maybe a thrust centric sword would be expected to more quickly defeat a bayonet than a slashing sword.
That Indian hybrid at around 18:10 into the video is an eyesore... but very interesting 👍👍
Matt, what about 1885 saber? Isn't it an early hybryd of these two conceptions? I'm curious to hear your reasons
Hi Matt, thanks for another fascinating video. One thing I'm confused about though (possibly I've misheard or misunderstood as I'm a bear with very little brains). You mention the swords of the City of London Yeomanry during the 2nd Boer War but why were they issued to only this regiment? The Imperial Yeomanry at this time consisted of companies manned by troopers from all the county yeomanry regiments (eg The Middlesex Yeomanry, The South Nottinghamshire Hussars, The Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry etc). Were these regiment treated differently or have I grasped the wrong end of the stick? 🤔
@scholagladiatoria Would you happen to have any suggestions for (relatively) inexpensive sabers which have a sharpened false-edge? I want one for use wiþ Hungarian Military Saber (As translated by Russ Mitchel) and I need þe sharpened false-edge to preform several counters wiþin þe system.
“¿y por qué no los dos?”
I have a 1908 with Iraqi military markings & a brown painted bowl. It is a dedicated sticker but a very efficient sticker.
Do you know much about its history?
@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 No, only circumstantial inferences. It is marked "WILKINSON PALL-MALL" & has the plain troopers model hand guard. It would have probably come to Iraq between 1914-1932 during the British mandate of Iraq. The Hashemites (1933-1958) may have retained them as military sidearms. They may also have been retained as a military weapon or stored away during the Republic of Iraq period (1958-1968), I have no evidence for either scenario. My sword was however marked with the Republican Guard Military Triangle sometime after 1968 and was in the field when I acquired it in 2003.
I can't be the only one who noticed a lot of similarity between the London Yeomanry sword and the US 1913 Cavalry Saber. I wonder if the designers of the US weapon were influenced by the Yeomanry sword or whether they simply came to very similar conclusions about what a cavalry sword needed to be.
I would also like to point out that US Cavalry, especially from the latter half of the 19th century, was very "dragoon-y," as it were. They fought on foot more than a lot of European cavalry units that weren't dragoons, even though the US cavalry units weren't explicitly dragoons either. I wonder to what extent (if any) this influenced their sword preferences.
Matt, I do have a serious question for you, I wish I had kept the sword but 1/3rd of the end of the Saber was broken off . I was told buy the guy who my Dad bought it off from back in 1990 it was a Spanish-American War sword ugh. I found a full pic of it, can't find it. It was a WW I German Gunnery Saber. It honestly has very light surface rust, more a patina, was really heavy, you think of "Pirate cutlass "from the "Goonies". It had a large iron hand guard (4) 1/4" holes on each side of the blade, two slender rectangular openings corresponding to the blade , it had a large curved quillion perhaps 2" in length. It had almost what looked like an iron "habaki" between the blade and guard. I remember it having a large inward blade shape, forgot the name...age thing, I'll blame it on that. The Backstrom was iron and had two langet style rounded pieces that went around the still very good but minor Crack walnut grip rounded reverse grooves. I cannot remember any Saber markings. If I can remember any of the proper terms, I will edit this post. I Greatly Appreciate the time,and hopefully by next month I will be a generous Patreon. Cheers My Friend 🦆
The German Saber from the boar War you showed had that grip shape.
I like the 'tulwar' and the skewers. I'm not too sure about the last sword, though.
Probably because I'm not used to that design. I think I would have liked it to have a lighter guard..
Thanks Matt, wonder which indian cavalry regiment used the last sword?
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Sir Richard Francis Burton either designed , or had some influence in the design of the 1908?.I could be mistaken and would appreciate input from those more knowledgeable.
I don't believe so. Matt has an article on his website on British cavalry sword development that references Burton twice but there's no suggestion of any influence.
7:16 "Added girth" - all the Mrs to us history freaks starts listening...
Are there treatises for non-lethal uses of swords?
What kinda steel was that sword?
The Katana can kick them all off your table, then cut the tanks in half, to produce more Offspring 🤣 JK...
That 1908 sword makes me finally understand the sport sabre. I could never fathom why the blade was so narrow and straight for training for a weapon I always assumed was a broad, curved, cutting blade. But it makes perfect sense if the last iteration of the working cavalry sword was very narrow and straight.
Actually the 1908 is a massive brute of a sword. The modern sport sabre is not at all based on cavalry swords, it is based on the Italian dueling sword (sciabola). A modern sport sabre generally weighs about 400g whereas an infantry officer's sword (then and now, in the UK) weighs about 800-900g, and a cavalry sword is around 900-1300g usually. The modern sport sabre is not really like any real sword, except itself.
What kind of microphone are you using now for your videos? The one that was attached to your shirt?
Er, yeah. Why else would he be wearing it?
4:40 "bo wo" British spotted and confirmed 👍
So what would an officer in an Indian Infantry regiment carry in WWI and the years immediately preceding?
I ask because I have a sword with Edwardian markings on what looks like a 1845 blade that has a three bar hilt that I am trying to identify. The scabbard is leather, not steel, with the the metal fittings painted black.
I’m always curious as to how left-handed soldiers equipped?
"The Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today." ...would you like to know more?
But what if you're riding a horse with a thrusting weapon and it gets stuck in the opponent's body? Doesn't your own hand pull you backwards in such a situation and you fall off the horse?
You are travelling at speed on half a ton of horse, man and kit. As you thrust you swivel your arm about so as to trail behind and the poked angry man is left behind as the horse drags the sword out of your somewhat annoyed opponent. Then you look for another naughty man to poke with your spikey thing. A Pattern 1908/12 with the inertia of half a ton moving at more than 20mph will poke through anyone not wearing plate armour but also slide out even if hit in the bone. The Great War cavalry, with their swords, rifles and Hotchkiss machine guns, together with Horse Artillery formed a combined arms unit whereby the cavalry could race about at the speed of a modern cross country vehicle to bring rifle fire to bear upon the enemy flank and advance on foot covered by machine gun fire and supported by mobile artillery. All with the plus of being able to carry out a direct assault, or flanking movement far faster than foot infantry giving far less time for enemy fire to engage against an advance. Foot moves at 1/5 the speed of horse at best, so meeting enemy fire for at least 5 times as long. What the mounted troopers were vulnerable to was artillery (bit trickery to take cover stuck on top of a horse) and wire etc. removing the speed advantage. In the day the cavalry remained useful well into the 20th century but the strategic downfall was less firepower and more logistics. Horses are delicate and need feeding, watering and rest. One lorry can give a company all the POL it needs for the day but it takes several to bring forward fodder for a mounted one and their range of movement is limited to a few hours a day whilst a vehicle can be driven 24/7 as long as it is topped up and maintained. I note that the actual first Soviet soldier to physically meet the Wallies in 1945 was a Cossack cavalry scout.
Just watched this, noted particularly the bit at the end about cavalry still much in use in Eastern Europe. Here is the refrain of *Żurawiejki* , a Polish song from not long after the end of WW1, when the Red Army invaded Poland.
_Lance do boju, szable w dłoń, bolszewika goń, goń, goń!_
Lances to battle, sabres drawn, rout, rout, rout the Bolsheviks!
The hilt to blade marriage makes me think of a sophicasted version of a cutlass for some reason. Like a naval officer wanted something that fit his saber training by want to show he was one with his men. Also, what is the point of camoflaged the hilt of a sword that you keep on a horse, especially if you don't camo the sccabard and the horse? Seems like a futile exercise.
Meanwhile mid-late war hungarian hussars: idk just rehilt that 200 years old antique sabre it will be fine
Hmm, yes
That last hybrid sword I’m not a fan. It seems the weight distribution compromises the effectiveness of both attacks.
As a purely mounted sword I think it would have been devastating
Dismounted as a trooper would I have a carbine with bayonet?
Post South African War they disposed of the Lee Enfield Cavalry Magazine Carbines and troopers had the same Short Magazine Lee Enfield as the infantry and the matching bayonet. Once dismounted you needed a bayonet for offence and for defence against cavalry and cannot handle both a sword and a rifle. Hence the sword lived on the horse. Dismounted you had no need for a sword but you did for a bayonet which was therefore on the man’s accoutrements.
Alice In Chains. Cheers Matt!
Do you think there's a correlation between cutting swords and a warrior culture focusing on swords? A cutting sword only works well when kept very sharp, meaning the swordsman is invested in maintaining the edge. Whereas thrust centric swords still work when neglected, such as for soldiers whose main weapon is a gun.
kick ass shirt
It's the Steam Punk Rapier! (not the Indian one at the end)
Looks a lot like that Napoleonic cavalry sword you showed before. Which is pretty funny, because the British accounts complained about it, calling it un-gentlemanly and basically "too OP (plz nerf)"
🍻
So Matt likes a little bit of length and girth to his swords, eh?
Let us not forget the Polish 1934.Iron-Hewer
you need to get Anthony Cummings into filming reenactments. .
When I was young the 1908 was known as the Perfect Sword. I notice that you tubers don't use that term or even reference the 1908 when they talk about the best swords.
Because it's only "perfect" for one highly specific role.
Yo
2nd
🗿👍🏿
Can you talk more about katanas and lightsabers please?
hey @scholagladiatoria cover the sword Urumi. It is a one of kind weapon and i dont think there is any other sword like it
Infantry right, ENGAGE!
i have to say i can't stand the thought of thrust centric calvery swords. pobs my mot hated sword to be brutally honest. The train of thinking of it's conception just reminds me of a spadroon.
Something new amongst all the blabbering and senseless content vomit out there
I'm going to have to get out my 1908 and do some atv calvary work again, hey, I'm going to play some AIC on that one! 💯👍👍⚔️🫏 Cheers 😎
I for one, hate those 1908, Patton style swords. Lance on a handle is exactly what they are. I just think they are ugly, especially when compared to earlier sabres. I understand what they were doing, and why they were doing it, but they are just butt ugly to me.