Stall, Misfire case study: Pontiac Grand Prix 3.8
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- This 2008 Pontiac stalled out in town and the owner had it towed back to his house. Now it starts up and runs great...can we recreate this intermittent problem?
Enjoy!
Ivan
Cleaning the throttle helped mine.The map sensor needed replacing and the mechanic did the throttle at the same time.He said the sensor was full of oil.No more stalling and erratic idle .
Great info for 3.8 owners!
Great Vid bro I had the Po300 code pop up on me last night car started running horribly with major vibrations hesitation, used that trick with disconnecting the spark plug wire , and noticed my 1-4 coil wasn’t giving off and sparks , ran to the auto parts swapped out that ICM and bingo I’m back running smoothly and no codes popped back up 👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾 thanks for the upload definitely useful knowledge
Cant tell you how many ECMs I have changed out on my 3800 series II motors. I was almost going to say it was a crank position sensor before you put the codes up. Sounds like his power steering fluid is a little bit low too, or a bad rack. My Grand Prix GXP had a leaky rack on it! Great video!
cw2lido I’m going on my 4th ecm on my 3800 ughhh
Hey Ivan. Ran into your video. I have an 05 3.8 super charged. Monte Carlo. .
This misfire on cylinder 3 only. I've checked how u mentioned. Pulling to wires off coil pack. All three coils seem very strong jumping across posts.
Swapped coils.
Swapped spark plug wires.
Always comes back to.the #3 cylinder miss fire.
If I had hair I'd pull it.
Has new.spark plugs. .
When I put them in. (plugs.iridium delcos) ran WAY. WAY. SMOOTHE. FELT MORE POWERFUL.
Then. It began. ....again. cylinder #3. Back at it.mis fire.
Engine light came on.
Comes on. When I warm car up after I put it in gear to back up and engine light is on..
I've cleared it every day for two weeks. Checking this that cleaning this that added heat transfer compound to between module &base dielectric lube @all.connctions.
New battery.
P0303
Have Innova small reader. 3160.
I can check it. Can't afford a big scanner
I do t feel I need to do a compression test.
When it gets up to jammmm. It goes. .
Turns on in a snap.
Disconnected fuel injector @3 cylinder. Noticed. A bit rough idle. So it's got to be working. How well. I'm not sure. Hmmm. I'm have to swap injector s.
Always use premium gas. I've tried all three. In SC 3.8 premium is it.
Hey Ivan , Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and thanks for all the nice videos !
Thanks so much for your support! Happy Thanksgiving to you too!
2006 Pontiac grand prix just had work done coils, spark plugs and ignition module replaced. Runs a lot better. Great video.
Good detective work and patience. I must admit I have not had a bad icm that was inop with just 1 bad driver. I guess the reason because it is so easy to swap coils and see if no spark/weak spark follows. In this case you can see by the amperage at a lower amp draw. I wonder if scoping icm would have shown erratic signals. Anyways you are dedicated at what you do.
Reminds me of the mysterious loose Subaru relay. Well done Ivan. Thanks!
LOL at least this one was staring me straight in the face!
Nice one Ivan -- straight to the issue it would have been easy to get sidetracked following the fuel pump relay problem.
thanks for the video ,i don t know why GM never engineered this flaw out well before the cars get to 120.00 or higher and they start doing this
Good job Ivan, always takle one - DIANOSTIC @ time, one thing @ time, is what a - "Nissan Tech - Specialist" taught me, 👌👍
Nice one!!!! By looking at when the code for fuel pump relay set , I knew you be back at it again the next day.
Why would you say that? No random misfire codes were showing up. Maybe they had been reset already, maybe not. My suspicion is someone had tried something prior to Ivan seeing the car. And I may be wrong. Customer goes and drives the car after the relay was plugged in properly and no issues, I would have thought a fix myself.
arciefan I made my comment on the feeling that I had, Ivan, the brilliant tech that he is just showed his viewers that there's always a possibility of an unrelated cause to a problem at hand. That was my feeling.
Crazy but hopefully saved the customer a bunch of cash. Nice work
Why? What this guy did is worth a bunch of cash! He saved the customer wasted time at a conventional shop.... Not to mention dumbass service writers and ppl trying to sell bs.
Great fix Ivan, looks like someone went it and either removed or bumped the relay to try to fix the ignition problem.
Quality and professional presentation, I appreciate the effort and thank you for your time, on several points you have shared some excellent diagnostic tips and trick’s for any auto-tech geek, keep it up, I look forward to your assistance with future projects!!!
My pleasure!
Ivan dont forget to do a crank-relearn when your done please , you have no idea how many erroneous misfies ive fixed doing that. good job btw
Good tip! Unfortunately owner replaced ICM after my diag, so I didn't have time to do the crank relearn with the new module...
Well handled Ivan. Customer got to see it was two distinct and unrelated faults, can be tricky if they give you the`you touched it last` line.
Thanks, it can be a bit awkward going in a second time and finding a completely separate fault and charging the customer a second fee, but that's how it goes!
I think there are those looking for something for nothing as they say. Those that don't mind paying for good honest work, and others somewhere in between. That's why I feel for you so much out there in the field doing this, vs them bringing it to you, based on your reputation and expecting to pay a fair price because they feel good about your service. Eric O would get my business any day of the week and so would you. Be advised there is a rarity somewhat for guys like you !
Thanks for that Danner tip Ivan, I guess I missed that particular video and it seems to be a quite handy thing to diagnose with. Now I'll have to logic out how it works the next time I'm near a waste spark schematic such that it makes sense to me too. So that just took a moment of reflection but then waste spark ignition have wrong polarity on half their plugs? Huh. When you are doling out Thor's own hammer like today's ignitions systems tend to do, I guess a little thing like polarity can get kicked to the curb. I'm starting to feel old.
Nice fix on the ignition.Spark loss confirmed by scope.Aftermarket parts can be found wanting under stress unless from a reputable company.Maybe leaky ht leads contributing to breakdown of ign nodule or faulty sparkplugs.
Put fuel injector cleaner in your car regularly to eliminate codes like random misfire and lean live readings. Give it a tankful chance.
Great teaching video, subscribed!
Eric O : "Probably a Dorman Module."
Here in OZ the same problem is usually the CAS or the DFI module under the coil packs...Same engine from 88-02 Commodore
I used to own a 2005, same car, had chronic problems with random misfire that could be cured just by restarting the engine. Never did find out what it was
I have the same problem on my 2006. It's been doing it for as long as I remember. I've learned to live with it since it doesn't happen that often and only on hot start up. Plus like you said, restarting the car fixes it and for me it doesn't come back for weeks sometimes.
@@michaelmiguelicutti2829 I'm pretty sure it's an ECM problem. Have you considered replacing it?
@Maverick Malone having a TIS2Web subscription, J2534 cable and the tech2 software also helps quite a bit
Outstanding! You nailed it.
Very very nice video 😊 I learned something thanks brother 😊
It shouldn't be that easy to remove a relay. You should take it out and inspect the connection inside the fuse block for a malformed pin, and look for heat. I just watched a video with a corvette that had a similar problem, very similar fuse block style and it was also the fuel pump relay. There was a bad connection and heat damage to the fuse block side pin from a loose connection
Thanks Ivan. Great call
Excellent stuff Ivan
I've looked over check engine freeze frame data at one time with my two buddies and one of their parents watching and read vehicle speed PID it was 135 km/h the parents gave the kid a talk LOL.
Maybe when someone was changing the battery they took the cover off for better battery access, or when they jumped it and they knocked the relay loose. with a crappy junpbox its hard to get the postive on those cars.
Nice job Ivan.
After repairs, check codes and general readings to prevent comebacks. If you see imminent problems, tell them now and see if they want it fixed. Customers will badmouth a mechanic in the blink of an eye. If it's getting toward Winter, scrutinize systems so you want be in the cold fixing some stupid problem. Get up as much business as possible in warm weather. Replace troublemaker parts in the warm weather. Don't install Chinese parts! Maybe stock up on popular parts.
How about a live repair video ? Please :)
One of the causes of the code on the trouble shooter was short to power , hum how does that happen in a relay ? The coil test , awesome 👍👍
STEVE ROB sounds like it was loose and shorting/ arcing from being loose lol
Desmond Blyan I have no idea what's going on next time im going down to PA and watch Ivan in person , bring a case of beer, that might help. LOL
Lol have a beer for me too Cheers
Hey Steve you are always welcome to stop by with some beer and Canadian tales ;)
motoYam82 Sounds like Eric and I are going to mikes and drink his beer and shoot some deer , get you gun and join us. Don't tell mike. LOL
My 98 explorer has been having a weird stalling issue only at idle though. If i'm at a long red light the engine will shake and almost die. Shitty thing is that sometimes it does die. Starts back up every time no problem. At stop signs its fine. It stops and goes no isse. BUt at longer headlights the revs will surge. Not constantly surging in fact sometimes i'll sit there at watch the needle not move for over a minute. Then after its warmed up is when i'll get that one misfire to make the needle drop to 200rps or under.
I was having misfires on all 6 cylinders. Changed plugs back to motorcraft and got rid of all misfires except CYL 4. Car runs way better now but i'm still having that issue. Bough new PCV,IAC, throttle body looks brand new on the inside now, MAF cleaned several times, new fuel filter, new air filter, changed manifold gaskets. So you see i've tried just about everything. Cant find anything in terms of torn hoses or boots. Any ideas? Oh i should add there are no codes.
i would have cyl 4 inspected, sounds like a burnt or leaky valve, or worse off broken rings, or melted piston.
Replace the vct solenoids.
sometimes my moms 01’ Grand Prix stalls.. and key won’t come out of the ignition half the time. also there is an emissions computer problem, 30 bucks for a new one
I think it was leaking from the hole in the fender.
Nice work
Great case study. learning a lot from your videos. Just to clarify the low current can only be caused by high resistance in the coil or a transistor not functioning correctly? Can you not do a traditional resistance test on this style coil? ( not that resistance is reliable have seen fault coils pass resistance tests and not start a car)
I get swapping the coil would eliminate coil or module, but since the other coils are working power and ground and all inputs to the module all rule out as suspects correct?
Thanks.
Sure, you can do a resistance check on the coil after removing it from the module. In this case the resistances were identical (should have shown on film, sorry). And correct, main powers and grounds to ICM are OK since we can see the other coils building up to full current.
I'm on my 2nd icm. Same stalling and misfired. What's killing the icm? and thanks for any advice
I've never had much luck with aftermarket ICMs on GM vehicles.
I do, however, have an odd request, if I may: Next time you see this car, could you inspect the body ground to the battery and to the engine block? Most of the GMs I've put ICMs on had engine ground issues (corrosion or missing entirely), and once I started including a "re-grounding" as part of the job, I stopped getting quite so many comebacks.
rhkips Well done sir . And lets not forget the icm bracket to block for corrosion also.
01 Pontiac grand prix is having multiple cylinder misfires I recently replaced the spark plugs and cables still misfiring
Try fuel injection cleaner in the tank. Check codes with a Actron CP9690 code tester. It checks live, graphing, record, emission readiness test, oxygen sensor test, transmission test, ABS, SRS, and MORE! Replace the module under the coils and the coils to prevent problems, along with spark plugs and wires. Warm the engine before checking codes until it says closed loop. Replace the coolent temperature sensor.
Fuel filter possible cause as well
Ty. This fixed my problem too!!!
Would it be possible to have high resistance in the wiring or connectors between the coil and ignition module? What would be the test to rule that out?
hey Ivan if you want a good cheap tablet. get the chuwi hi 10 its great and the screen is plastic so its a little more durable than glass
Great video!
Need to clean out throttle body, mine was doing same thing and after cleaning out throttle body, runs like a charm ,I have an 2004grandprix.
Great classic diagnosis of both problems. But you really need to replace your laptop. It's like looking through a shattered windshield and makes you look ghetto. And what's with the whine of that V6? Power steering pump?
Yeah P/S pump...already replaced that too. On the previous one, the owner told me the mechanic installed the pulley with a ROCK since he didn't have proper tools hahaha smh
I have a 2004 Grand Prix GT with 285,000 miles. A few days ago I had a misfire in cylinder 6. I bought a new coil pack and replaced it and the car works fine for one day. As I was driving home that night the car stalled out as soon as I got to my driveway. The car never ran hot. I tried to start it up but nothing. All electrical components are working except the AC fan isn't now. There are no codes showing. And there is no sparks coming from none of the coils now. I've checked all the fuses twice and they all are good. As a precautionary I changed the crankshaft sensor and the ignition control module and still nothing. What do I do next? ECM PCM or Timing Chain? Help??
Did you ever find out what was wrong with the car? I've got an 06 and got the cylinder6 misfire code, hoping it's just spark plugs
What was the problem? Mine did the same thing
@@logantill6168 tbh i dont remember, i sold it late 2017 for a brand new car. i havent had to buy a part or see a mechanic in 5yrs.. I loved my Grand Prix and it got me thru 12yrs and still had AC and the sunroof working. I just got tired of always watching the temp, oil, leaks, water, and always being nervous to drive it somewhere. It was time and thankfully I got my new SUV with no money down or payments for 4months...
@@XtremeSportX247 I feel u on that. I'm at 141k. Had from New showroom floor comp g version. I'm about done with her. Same issues. It's a headache that won't go away now
awesome ur the man..
What laptop is that with the cracked screen?
My 03 Bonneville has very similar symptoms which occurred after I did a simple engine clean. You suppose it's the same problem?
Thanks for the tip
could it also be a voltage drop issue on the wire that current is flowing through? You only showed the current but perhaps there is voltage drop on either the feed or ground circuits?
Perhaps, but those are all internal to the module, so new module is the fix...
And which brand for replacement ? 😎😉
where's the ICM on that car
Under the coil packs
We have a 2008 Grand Prix 3.8L. Stalls intermittently just like this. Has new crank sensor, crank balancer, new but used PCM, new coil ( I believe 3&6) , new wires, new plugs, new ignition module and it still does this. Stalls at operating temperature. Had at GM dealer for 2 weeks, and they cannot figure it out.
Did you ever solve what was causing your stalling issue?
Did you ever find out what caused the stalling?
I have a 07 grand prix throwing 0455 code. And is causing a miss fire. Is that possible can an EVAP issue cause a miss fire ? I replaced coil packs ignition control mod. Cam and crank shaft sensor. Plugs wires. And still has a miss fire
Thanks for the video. My 2004 has not ran in 7 years. Any help with the steps to flush out the tank and lines would really be appreciated. I just do not want that old gas making it into the engine. Thanks again.
Now I can't wait to check my relays and hope that is my only issue lol.
I had like 6 relays loose im kinda upset with myself
@@ashtonerdmann5613 mine ended up being a bad coil pack.
Question please men?? 2009 Pontiac Grand Prix 3.8 v6 series 3 car drives good until warmed up then bucks like a serge of gas then slows down keeps doing it then sime days its good! Any ideas please
I'm having an issue with the same motor. Mine is on a 2005 Buick LeSabre. The OBDII wont connect. There is power it just wont read the trouble codes. Acrually it wont read anything. The engine runs like crap so I Seafoamed it. Its running better but it still stalls out. Have you had an issue like mine?
Check the ECM fuse about the no codes.
coil breaking down ??
nice
I always thought modules were eitger good or bad tgey weren't intermediate couldn't u still have a bad coil even after u switch it around ??
Module in this is not intermittent. Coil is (constantly) not charged enough so spark is intermittent.
good answer ;)
Man time for a new laptop
easy to fix the owner never touch cars before
that was a strange looking waveform, was that coil primary current?
Good eye. Keep in mind that the ICM does more than fire the coils, so the waveform won''t look like what you expect, but still definitive in narrowing down the problem.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics man I'm on my 2nd icm. New coil packs and plugs tapped @.60
I'm all ears. I noticed my '05 gtp ignition switch and shifter bushing is jacked up too. Words from the wise please from anyone with similar problems and solutions
Loose relay...... Aliens!!
2003 Buick lesabre 3800 v6, New plugs wires. Car has original coil packs and fuel injectors. original map and maf sensor, car runs a little rough when cold or when you first start. feels like a miss but not a dead miss and its only for a little while before the car gets a little warm. The misfire counter does not shoot a code. My guess is a dirty maf sensor. Do you have Any ideas motoYam82??
Perform a relative compression test on a cold engine. Just crank it over with wide open throttle and listen for a low compression cylinder.
ok thanks and just 1 more question this means a lot to me umm the 3800 upper intake A metal tube routed up through the lower metal intake manifold from the Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve burns holes in the plastic manifold it extends into, allowing coolant to be mixed into the crankcase engine oil and combustion chambers slowly and undetected could this be the a suspect and how would you test and see if the coolant is slowly being mixed into your engine
yeah that is a common issue. Actually the cylinder could be filling up with coolant after shut-down and causing your exact symptom! I think there is an updated plastic intake manifold available.
how would you test to see if this is happening
are you losing coolant from the system?
holy crap man what happened to the laptop?!
One of the other computers fell on top of it during a test drive a few videos back.
he dropped it on a test drive
Damn those gm era cars lol 😂
My 2007 Pontiac Grand Prix 3.8 V6 Stalls out going under 30mph up hills or idling, but seems to drive fine when not going up hills or idling. It doesn't die Everytime it idles, but it happens sometimes. The last time I was stopped at a stop sign loud popping noises came from the engine and the car stalled out, but it fired right back up and was able to get it home fine. Any advice?
Coil packs maybe? Something like what he explains at the end of this video
there's something on your laptop screen? lol
What scan tool are you using?
I want one of those computer he has .. Im having same problem
Yes the computer is very helpful :)
Pause the video at 1:17 and my guess is that he has a failing fuel pump.
Why would you think that?
The lean code p0171 and the fact that the engine quit running. When a fuel pump starts to fail, it can't maintain the design operating pressure for the fuel injection system. Less fuel mean the 02 sensor is reporting a lean condition. A misfire in a modern computer controlled engine means the computer has detected that one of the cylinders or multiple cylinders are not producing as much power as the other (the computer can see the drop in rpm). In the old day, a misfire was either a bad plug, bad ignition wires, bad distributor cap, or a bad rotor.
Well yeah the FP relay intermittently lost contact and the fuel pump shut off... :)
120.000 milesoor higher
still never fixed the laptop lol
I bought a new one...still kept this one as a backup in the shop. Can't have too many laptops lol
Lol i still wanted to know which part u diagnosed was it that lil coil pack looking thing or what was it
Ignition Control Module, located under the ignition coils.
motoYam82 ok thanks you da man
i have a 1994 pontiac grand prix se 3.1 dies when driving. when it starts to die it starts to miss and the rpm gauge starts jumping and then it dies but it always starts right back up i changed the crank shaft sensor in it and it runs great till in starts to die ......what could it be.i also put a new fuel pump on it
ignition control module, shorted fuel injectors would be my first guess. Definitely need a scope to diagnose properly. You could measure resistance of injector group. Look up ScannerDanner shorted injector diagnosis :)
i havent changed the fuel filter could that cause it.the bad thing is i have to order a obd scanner for it a obd1 wont work i was told it a obd 1 1/2 it only has 3 wires in the plug i found a actron 9690 that will work but it will cost it a obd1 and obd2 i cant check any codes with out it.
That's unnecessary. For fuel pressure just hook up a fuel pressure gauge and tape it to your windshield and go for a drive. You have to get a direction before firing the parts cannon!
i just now tryed to start it and it cranks over and back fires like it out of time....i checked and its firing could it be the cam shaft sensor it trys to start
START WITH A FUEL PRESSURE CHECK!
quite the crack you have on that screen... lol
somebody please buy Ivan a new computer screen.
not sold separately...
motoYam82 😢
Wow . Man brken iPad
This a year old video and I know how it happened, you created an intermittent problem. Relays don't back out of connectors.
Checking fuel trim for a stall in town, LMAO. Gotta pay for that scope.
2 o2 sensors on a 3 way catalyst system. Great job on conditioning people on up sales for your lack of knowledge. "Lets look up the wiring diagram" so we are looking for a ground problem according to the Troubleshooter? So lets check the relay.
I have a hundred more things I can tell you about your mis diagnosis.Great Video though
Thanks for the constructive criticism! I'm just learning the ropes here, complete diagnostic noob. I would love to learn a thing or two from pros like you. Looking forward to watching your professional videos and learning lots. Have a great day! :)
And how many O2 sensors does this Pontiac actually have? I'm completely lost on this one lol
That lil white sticker under the hood will tell you. LOL
Well that will never happen, But if you want to talk we can.
first
Oh Ivan your in trouble look that cracked screen your wife will be so angry.