Gold vs. Bitcoin: A Soho Forum Debate
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2022
- Monetary Metals CEO Keith Weiner defends the future of gold against bitcoin podcaster Pierre Rochard.
reason.com/video/2022/08/08/g...
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Will gold remain an important form of money, or are cryptocurrencies like bitcoin set to overtake it?
That was the subject of a Soho Forum debate held on July 26 at the Mises Institute in Auburn, Alabama, as part of Mises University, an annual instructional program in the Austrian school of economics attended by over 80 accepted students from around the country.
Keith Weiner, CEO of Monetary Metals, defended the resolution: "Gold will remain an important form of money in the 21st century." Weiner took the position that gold is poised to hold on to the monetary status it's enjoyed for the past 5,000 years and that its recent performance only confirms why.
Pierre Rochard, co-host of the Bitcoin for Advisors podcast, took the negative, arguing that the technological advantages of bitcoin will make it the preferred medium of exchange in a post-dollar world.
This debate was moderated by Soho Forum director Gene Epstein.
Narrated by Nick Gillespie; edited by Clay Barnett and John Osterhoudt
Photo: The Mises Institute; Kirez, CC BY-SA 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons; Rangan Datta Wiki, CC BY-SA 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons
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I'm partial to Bitcoin, but would still say that gold will remain important
It really doesn't need to be one or the other
Exactly. It would be foolish to put all your eggs in one basket.
Exactly I would rather hold Bitcoin for most of my wealth but gold is nice to have.
I'm a big fan of Bitcoin too, but I don't see gold going away either.
You won’t be saying that when it goes back to its intrinsic value of 0.
No much difference if btc falls to 0$ or gold to a few dollars which its intrinsic industrial value is
Very refreshing to listen to a respectful debate between two smart people here on CZcams. Thanks!!!
As soon as Rochard makes the absurd claim that stability is not necessary for bitcoin to function as money because its some kind of Keynesian obsession, he gives away his monetary bias as deductively misguided. You can't even discuss money without involving the "stability" (ie: the saleability of a commodity). The entire POINT of "money" is that it be consistently valued across a wide spectrum of goods in order to make the inefficiency of barter unnecessary.
He compares bitcoin to the housing market, as if the volatility of real estate would be a selling point for it to be the basis for currency. It's painful to have to point out how much of the volatility in housing is directly correlated to loose monetary policy, which is the same policy that obviously has a significant effect on bitcoin market prices. And the fact that many hardcore bitcoin advocates specifically point to fed monetary policy as a reason to embrace bitcoin makes that undeniable. Its literally the explicit reason bitcoin was invented.
Then he goes on in his summary to make the ridiculous recommendation that, "if you're worried about the volatility of bitcoin, you can just buy more of it". Hahaha....yeah, because what someone needs when they're in the financial crunch of watching their savings dip is to just keep buying into the thing they're not sure if they should trust in the first place. And that even assumes we are talking about someone that is still working and earning new money to divert to bitcoin, much less the dire situation someone would be in if they NEEDED to liquidate assets to survive.
I think the point he was trying to make is that holding bitcoin actually increases its value by making it more scarce on the exchanges. There's this concept of the hodlers of last resort where bitcoin's price can't fall below a certain level due to the conviction of a sizeable group of people that won't sell and will constantly buy on market downturns. I agree that it was poorly explained, and not particularly compelling, but that's what I believe he was referring to.
I mean currencies aren't inherently stable depending on how things are measure. If housing, gas, and groceries go up 30%, the currency is not stable relative to them. Yes, $1 is still $1, but it's the purchasing power that matters. Compared to the dollar, the Euro looks highly unstable right now. Compared to bitcoin over the last 10 years, the dollar is a sinking ship.
@@chilidem
The conceptual math of this money dynamic is baffling.
It sounds like you're saying he's making a comparison between the amount of Bitcoin being ideologically held to the gold that sits in vaults and rarely gets traded, much less physically. Some might say that creates a floor. If they won't sell, then anyone wanting to buy has a smaller inventory to buy from.
I don't really see how that does anything but prevent commerce. It's literally saying, "as long as nobody's opportunity cost of USING IT rises above the opportunity cost of holding it, it will stay valuable". But then, if nobody uses it, why is it valuable to begin with again?
Mises said the value of a money proper must start from the original utilitarian value of its purpose prior to becoming money. If the only purpose it has is being money, then it didn't go through this evolution from barter commodity to medium of exchange to money.
@@garytarbell So is gold money then any more? Nobody spends gold and it will never be used as money again. I guarantee you the amount of commerce in bitcoin vs gold isn't close anymore.
@@chilidem
It is money, it is not regularly currency, at least not in the US for the last 100 years that the fed has existed.
It doesn't have to be used in direct exchange to be money proper. The USD was intended to be a convenient stand in, which, combined with US military intimidation, is one of the only reasons that USD's are still the world reserve currency.
But your view seems to be pretty narrow, considering that foreign banks have been stockpiling gold for decades, especially China. Why do you think that is?
If any foreign government wants to ditch USD's in order to step up as the new world reserve currency, they have to first amass tangible assets to back it with.
So the gold held by these governments is effectively their "money" already, propping up the legitimacy of their international trades with collateral.
The fact that the fed was used to siphon away all the US held gold should be a clue as to how significant it is. If that gold didn't matter, then Nixon would have honored the foreign debts and not closed the window. But he didn't because the gold was already gone and the people that got hold of it weren't giving it up, even if it meant war.
@@garytarbell Well said Gary! Keep on bringing the facts!
Gold's physicality is precisely what makes it a shitcoin in the first place (in addition to its higher stock-to-flow ratio compared to btc, but thats a different subject).
Because gold is difficult to transport/validate, it naturally concentrates into the hands of institutional custodians to help facilitate payments, which inevitably leads to fractional reserve banking, which inevitably leads to central banking, which inevitably leads to fiat currencies.
@Complete Failure | Total Loser | Low IQ Subhuman Tell that to the Spanish.
What will you do when we start to mine asteroids?
Also not gambling on thin air, but information, the ones and zeros are not imaginary.
@Complete Failure | Total Loser | Low IQ Subhuman Bitcoin is people relying on provable math. And it will remain valuable until the very last computer on this planet can compute 1mb worth of data.
Doubting bitcoin is doubting technology
Traditionally =/= Inevitably
The implication that there is no other way for gold to serve as money or that custodianism must lead to government fiat is narrow minded bias
Just as technology and the network effect make Bitcoin possible, so do they also make other outside the box monetary paradigms possible.
@Complete Failure | Total Loser | Low IQ Subhuman Unlike Tulips, bitcoin has a cleared and defined use case. (Censorship Resistant Money with benefits).
Proof of work computational costs offers bitcoin a reasonable floor price and the buying pressure is exorbitant.
Yeah, Gold is a shitcoin, and that's exactly why it's good. Not everything should be hyper-traded market commodities. It's shit in comparison to Bitcoin, for what the people in power value. The only thing that makes Bitcoin different than USD is the nominally decentralized nature of the Blockchain. It's still basically digital numbers that have no physical reality.
Gold doesn't rely on electricity and is impervious ot EMP
Exactly! People seem to believe that all this technology be it Bitcoins or whatever is just guaranteed to remain. In a world where certain areas still don’t know when or if their power will work. An everyday we’re asking more and more of our electrical grid’s. Never mind natural or targeted disaster’s.
I don’t know maybe the idea of holding gold or at least defining it as The foundational currency would now be considered a very “Boomer” (🙄) perspective. 🤷🏻♀️
@@TaraContido you have a car, tue internet, computer, or phone? If so, why are you using them if you are afraid they are going to be taken out? Sounds like you are a Luddite Doomsday prepper. When things get that bad, bullets, not bitcoin or gold will be the highest currency. Well, hesides water.
Hackers, grid outages, network outages, btc wallets die, etc
If you cant hold it, you don't own it.
@@TaraConti except u only need 1 node to reactive the system again, and if the entire electrical grid is down you'll be surviving and trying to find food, so you have other worries than monetary wealth storage.
@@HappyHermittbtc wallet die? Lol what is that? 😂😂😂
I recently purchased food from a farmer in northern Italy 🇮🇹 with Gold ingots of 1 gram i asked if he would accoept crypto he wasnt interested (im 56 and i regularly have to explain how the blockchain works to people 20 30 years younger than me. Its the other way around in many instances
how long have you been living in italy?
True, but in 5-10-15-20-25 years? We’re moving more & more into a digital world & I believe using & understanding bitcoin will get easier. I still love Gold though and will always own some. Both bullion & jewelry.
I lived in Vicenza for 2 years in the 90s.
I loved it.
Keith is a genius. Listen to his other talks.
@Weimar Gold it convinced the audience of an Oxford style debate.
His points were not great. But arguing for gold in a digital age is a losing battle.
@@chilidem In a digital age where any physical asset can be tokenized? Hmm. Kinesis Monetary is a great example.
@@kyleor7 Terrible example. The fact that you don't have the underlying asset means you don't have the asset. Bitcoin IS the asset and you can self custody it.
That point was obviously so stupid that it was embarrassing that he made it. " You can spend you gold on Apple Pay." What?
we need both
Bingo. Diversity is key in so much of life.
This debate had a bad resolution one side was not aligned with the counter to the resolution and the winner of the resolution had the clearly worse argument but a near unassailable starting position
I still think it's so funny how you can tell who is on which side of the debate based on how they appear in the thumbnail.
How?
@@mildtotemperate the disgusting fat high time preference slob is always against bitcoin
If you are conflating crypto and Bitcoin, you don't understand Bitcoin.
Well, then, in that case, I don't understand Bitcoin. Isn't it a unit or product of cryptocurrency?
Unfortunately, when you have one monopolistic entity (the State) providing another monopolistic entity (Federal Reserve) with "legal tender" laws, there is no choice allowed.
💯 buy butcoin buy freedom and what we deserve with our hard work
@@droangulo257 I don't typically use freedom to describe clunky methods of payment that ultimately lead back to the dollar. Bitcoin certainly has it's benefits, but you'd have to ompletely destory and rebuild society for bitcion to be accepted as a normal mode of payment.
@@threemar3 And yet some of us have been using it for both wealth storage and payments since 2015 or so. Early adopters will stomach the risk as it grows and as it grows it will lose volatility over the years. One day it will be the perfect money, far better than anything we've ever had before.
@@droangulo257Grid outages suck.
Pierre missed some opportunities in this debate
Most importantly, he did not focus on why GOLD is outdated. He brought up the danger of centralization of gold, but that really should have been almost the primary theme.
When Keith brought up that people just dug holes and hid their gold, Pierre should have said, "OK, but now all you have is metal in the ground. You no longer have the ability to transact with it. Loading gold into the banking system is what allows you to use it as money." Without centralization, gold is a heavy metal that is slow and expensive to send, and therefore cannot function as a currency. He kind of touched on it tangentially when he brought up escaping totalitarian states, but that is only a single application of Bitcoin's immateriality.
Gold has been around for 5,000 years as money for a reason and is only outdated based on your logic (or no logic mentioned I should say)! 5.5+ billion in the world today understand gold is money, whether it's in your hand or in the ground. It's the backing that keeps on backing regardless of trust between participants transacting! BTC is a zero sum casino waiting on the next bidder to prop it up and the next seller to leave it for the next buyer. You can't even transact with BTC across the world now and it's one of the most volatile assets out there! Business' would go out of business based on its volatile inflationary/deflationary features alone.
Saying Gold is volatility in relation to BTC is to compare a jazz club to a death metal concert.
More of this Felix! Loved it!
As always and as an owner of both assets these debates are very painful. I still have yet to see anyone on the gold side display anything other than an extremely superficial understanding of bitcoin and the bitcoin network. No doubt a rapacious government would be a problem for all asset forms if there was an attempt at confiscation or restriction but our goldbug friend here does not seem to understand the bitcoin network is worldwide and game theory would dictate as it already has in China when one government restricts bitcoin another one opens up its arms for it. At the same time I don’t think our bitcoin protagonist did a great job responding to the typically superficial arguments against bitcoin. Does our goldbug friend thing gold digs itself out of the ground without any energy cost or damage to the environment? He poses this criticism of bitcoin admittedly not knowing anything at all really other than he read a few articles about bitcoin so-called energy use. And As far as his trick of dropping Gold Coins and this as a means of verifying their validity as gold well I don’t think this is a technique central banks use to verify gold bars as all of them are melted down and resmelted at significant cost and this silly parlor trick should’ve been dismissed. As to golds 5000 your record this is true but that record clearly demonstrates what our bitcoin debater verifies that because of it problems with storage other than in small amounts it leads to centralization which led to paper notes which ultimately led to plain old fiat. Centralization of gold is a significant problem with it. For now neither gold or bitcoin at this point is money in a transactional sense. Come on, everyone buying either including central banks buying gold are hoping or expecting the value of that asset will increase and they will be the beneficiary of it. There’s hope for return as an investment it’s part of all investments but it is true bitcoins price swings have been more significant but no individual who has held bitcoin at least 3 to 4 years has lost money and if you don’t intend on buying and holding you have no business buying bitcoin because at this point you don’t understand enough about it. I also don’t think our gold bug understands the definition of a Ponzi scheme. In order for Ponzi schemes to exist and stay afloat new money Must come in to pay old investors or it collapses and that’s simply not the way bitcoin works. How many Ponzi schemes have had their price collapse with investors holding onto the majority of the asset despite the price decline only to find that in the next cycle not only did the price go up but it went up 10 fold. So if bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme it is unlike any Ponzi scheme in history. Lastly golds 5000 your track record as money is is in no way a guarantee towards future use as our gold bug implies. Let’s remember, the horse was the preferred means of transportation for many thousands of years but within a 4-5 decades It was pretty much all but displaced by the automobile. Improvements in technology win out and anyone who owns both gold and bitcoin and truly and dispassionately studies each system recognizes bitcoin wins in almost every aspect as a means of storing monetary energy. Anything humans choose must preserve that purpose. Despite its problems for thousands of years gold was the best we could do but just like the horse vs the car, we have done a lot better in the technology of money with bitcoin.
Not as painful as trying to read a long response with no paragraphs or proper spacing.TLDR
@@calstanke6170 It’s CZcams not an English paper lighten up
Charlie Munger Quote - "Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies are WORTHLESS ARTIFICIAL GOLD!"
ok boomer
Munger dead, bitcoin still here at 65k! 😂😂😂
This was fascinating. Learned a lot.
Both?
Neither!
Gold will likely continue to be good for jewelry.Almost No one uses it to buy things as its horrible money.
@@ericvincentofinowicz5610 Sure, if something out-competes them voluntarily that's cool too.
Really really good one. Love the riot guy
I don't see what prevents bitcoin from being governmentally controlled like any other form of currency. I don't think gold is better, i just don't think bitcoin will ever be competitive for any logical reason.
Thats right you dont see it. Like you dont see mee running my nodes, mining and walking with 12 words in my head. Thats why you cant stop it and neither coverments.
Because there is tens of thousands of nodes running? You can't stop speech, you can just make it difficult. You think they will do this now that so many influential people have committed?
It is funny how all these people saying gold is better don't actually own that much gold :D
Who exactly?
@@edjobkarjr.7650 Keith Weiner, Peter Schiff and so on.
@@Rockmonsterdude do you actually know or are you speculating?
'Not that much' = 4% or more of their net worth. As it turns out, physical gold stocks make up roughly 4% of the world's wealth. Holding at that level is an average kind of portfolio allocation.
Most investors understand that cash is the segment used to reduce risk and return and only becomes dominant in portfolios during times of economic downturns.
@@edjobkarjr.7650 They have said so in interviews and no I am not gonna go and find them for you.
Have any of you folks heard of the Carrington Event? If that happens again (it will), what happens to crypo?
If but a single node survived, the bitcoin network would live on, but would be very susceptible to a single point of failure. This is very very unlikely though, given the vast improvements of communications networks and the general advancement of interference resistent grids. Should it happen, the same concern must be made for those who do not hold custody of their gold. Do the custodians ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and say they don't know whose gold is whose? A Carrington Event would be very very disruptive for all of humanity, but the Bitcoin network is positioned extremely well to weather a related possible storm.
In the future, we'll use crypto to buy gold. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Buy gold for jewelry and other purposes. Its days as a monetary asset are numbered.
the diffrince between gold and bitcoin is gold is tangble for evre day use. it can be melted and made into other things. bitcoin is just an idear with nothing to back it like the dollor dos of the u.s back for now which will alss crash. thats why it makes gold a better opisthion not to say it has to be one of the other
You can now. Most bullion dealers accept it.
@@Waseem_Aminevery day use? For every day monetary use bitcoin is way better! 😂😂😂
@@HappyHermitt The bullion Dealer is not a holder of bitcoin. The dealer immediately converts Bitcoin to gold.
Pierre is a good man, but it's sad to see so many "Austrians" confused about money.
ironic
Could you please talk about AMZT02 it’s very strong and took off in short time thanks
If you invested in gold ten years ago … you made 9% profit in that time. If you invested in BTC … you made 570,000%. (Mic drop
The question is, what happens when governments start forbidding ownership of BTC as they have with gold in many countries around the world? In my home country, for example, ownership of gold has been limited to jewelry and gold coins but, in principle, owning gold in any meaningful way is prohibited. And how did they accomplish this? Well, under the gold standard, they told everyone to exchange their gold for cash which people "willingly" did.
Why can't the same thing happen with BTC and CBDC? You might argue that the majority of those who own BTC are in it because they understand its purpose as shield against government manipulation of the monetary system, but those who don't will willingly exchange their BTC for CBDC given the right price. Moreover, as I understand it, the majority of BTC is owned by a few institutional players such as miners. Are the Winklevoss brothers going to tell the government that they refuse to exchange their BTC for CBDC under threat of imprisonment? If (and I should say 'when') such a move by government is made, billions of dollars in BTC will be sold off, crashing the value of everyone's BTC who is willing to risk imprisonment for holding it.
I love BTC but I think it meets its match with the monopoly on violence which I support as a minarchist. At least with gold, you're buying into the government's game.
EDIT: 47:59 - And he seems to agree with me...
😂you can’t take a good plane with 50kg of gold dude you need to register that crap lol
Bitcoin doesn't exist within a system over which a gov't can control. Even in systems they can control like the highways: they've tried outlawing drugs. How's that going? They tried outlawing alcohol. That was a huge flop, wasn't it?
While piracy of music and movies and the like could be shut down when it was managed on a centralized site, de-centralized, peer-to-peer iterations of the same file sharing operations are totally unstoppable. The same principle applies with Bitcoin. You can take your nation out of Bitcoin, but you can't take Bitcoin out of your nation. There's no way to practically prove that I'm holding it or to stop me from buying it. Not to mention the Streissand effect. If the gov't doesn't want me to hold BTC... maybe I should.
Don’t forget the Achilles heal of bitcoin is electric/pcs. WW3 happens and there can be lots of people fucked. Doomsday is around the corner.
Who will the government sell it to? Back to the people? Lol it wouldn't be in their interest to sell it. Bitcoin is unstoppable.
I think it’s a shame Pierre Rochard conceded Bitcoin would stay volatile. Volatility will certainly drop as the market capitalization increases. Gold is difficult to manipulate when there’s $10 TRILLION of it at any given time. There’s only half a trillion of Bitcoin. I believe Bitcoin could reach a $10 trillion market cap in another 15 years. It will certainly be much less volatile than it is now that it’s such a tiny market cap.
As I understand it, gold is at least useful. Even if no one wanted it anymore, it would still be useful in many applications. Not only is it useful in high-tech applications (electronic contacts), it's also very useful even in a proto-literate society (jewels).
Bitcoin doesn't have this minimal value case: all its value is contained in its inability to control transactions by a third-party. If for whatever reason, either by breaking the protocol or by being able to control its environment (associate wallets to real identities for example), is it worth more than zero any longer?
It seems to me that the size of the market cap doesn't change that.
@Complete Failure | Total Loser | Low IQ Subhuman I don't understand the distinction you're making re Bitcoin: if the transaction system has value but can only be interacted with via the currency, surely that makes the currency valuable. How could it not?
I guess what you're trying to say is that the value is in the network effect? As in: Facebook would be more valuable than an exact clone because everyone is on Facebook but not on Faceclone? Similarly, bitcoin only has that value because the system works right now (enough computing that 51% attacks are hard, etc) but that isn't something inherently unique to Bitcoin.
That is what I was pointing at in my first comment: it is value but it is value that could be taken out
@Complete Failure | Total Loser | Low IQ Subhuman my point is that this feature of the system is valuable and so long as it remains the case, even holding Bitcoin has some value.
It's more volatile than gold because it has a much higher technology basefloor and requires a large enough network to remain even in the future.
But still, I think a currency that allows you to interact with such a system has some value. Which is perhaps much lower than current BTC prices, that I don't know.
Please refine your knowledge of money vs currency. The concept is very simple. Your future based gains theory with BTC should be void of this conversation.
@Complete Failure | Total Loser | Low IQ Subhuman I'd understand the criticism if you didn't get Bitcoin at all but you've explained its value proposition yourself here.
Bitcoin has some value because it allows me to send value through its system (which has some desirable properties). It's the same with money: you can't eat it yet it's better than being paid in oranges.
You can certainly have both. The more one learns about BTC the more one can see it as a very useful freedom money.
great debate!
My bet is Pierre’s bitcoin allocation percentage is much more than Keith’s Gold allocation. One believes in what he says the other is a net seller(scammer). Get your incentives aligned Keith!
Pierre claimed that someone using bitcoin as money can simply hedge their bitcoin exchange rate risk. In that case, bitcoin wouldn't be the unit of account; the good they are hedging against would be the unit of account.
So handy I don't need to carry around a granite countertop to confirm my bitcoin is real
1:09:11 very good question . But does show no reading of the BTC white paper . Sadly
34:07 - No one would counterfeit gold with platinum? Let's check today's spot prices... gold: $1695/oz, platinum: $828/oz.
I hear all the arguments (pros) for BT but find it quite funny that all the beneficial exmples are relatively extreme and wouldn only really apply to the uber wealthy when the average person is living paycheck to paycheck across age ranges. Didn't hear a single convincing argument for BT as currency vs. a hedge. As for gold, it can be currency, but I think its just better for backing. Any system you choose will have challanges with verification and security (e.g. see all the crypto scams over the years). Neither is perfect, but gold holds up against fundamental concepts in a way crypto does not. There will likely never be a truly decentralized currency (but perhaps as a proxy backer) so seizure will always be possible. IMO, gold is the better backer we have.
I'm not sure I understand how on the one hand Keith can reject the notion that money supply changes affect prices while on the other hand he argues that new supplies of gold provided through mining help to stabilize the price of gold. Can someone confirm or correct my understanding?
11:30 "Hello yes I'd like to buy a hamburger"
"No problem that will be 0.0001662872 Bitcoins"
lol never heard of satoshi? 😂😂😂
It doesn't matter how many monetary units there are. The stock to flow ratio is what matters.
Wrong. The more abundant the money the more scarce the thing we buy with it become.
@@michaelbhatti6846 That's an issue with *expanding* the money suppy. The amount of money in it of itself doesn't matter. As long as it's sufficiently divisible, it doesn't matter if there's a cap of 100 bitcoin or 1 billion. As long as the amount created over time is small relative to the amount in circulation, then it can be good money.
Dear guy at 55:20 , I'm over 40 and an engineer. Our generation of engineers advanced computers to what you enjoy using today. These days you don't really need to understand computers to make use of the internet. Back in the day, logging on to Usenet and posting on forums, transferring files using ftp - you actually had to have a lot of knowledge to use computers. In the future, crypto currencies will be as easy to use as a credit card or the payment app on your cell phone. Possibly easier. Just like people today have no idea how VISA or AMEX is settling the payment with their bank, so too, what is happening on the blockchain will be invisible to the end user. People will only point their phone or card and accept or receive payment with a single click.
The lady in the back laughing at this question was my highlight.
This was great, except it missed a second poll after this first:
Will Gold continue to be a important money in the 21st Century?
Will Bitcoin ever match or surpass gold in importance?
Will Bitcoin
I think, considering the previous jumps it made, Bitcoin can certainly surpass gold in total value. The technology works, and can help people at this very moment. The scalability is a bottleneck though, but I can see the Lightning network lighten (get it?!) the load in that area.
I think gold could be used for monetary purposes (high value cash transactions). But that it will be mainly used in industry, compared to now, when there is so much stored away and wasted in vaults.
BTC will NEVER, I repeat NEVER surpass Gold in importance. Gold is a unique industrial material without which the modern civilization would not be the same. BTC is just a record, - it doesn;t make anything better or worse, it is 100% redundant
#Gold #Silver & #Bitcoin (1%allocation) to the 🌕 baby we out 🚀 Sound Money > Fiat currency
Good debate. Gold wins.
Bitcoin wins! 😂😂😂
As a computer engineer, and part of a broader STEM community. Gold’s utility is Universal. Gold (Au) and Platinum (Pt) are metals vital to the manufacture of compound semiconductor devices. These precious metals are chosen because they offer high electrical conductivity and resistance to corrosion necessary for superior performance.
Bravo! A rare instance of intelligent view on this stupid argument BTC vs Gold. Gold is a unique and essential metal, without Gold BTC would not even exist, communication would be done via underwater cables and computers would occupy huge rooms
No it’s not. Gold isn’t fundamental for that and can be recycled infinitely you are wrong
While you're right, that has nothing to do with whether or not gold will be seen as value due to using it as a medium of exchange. That's what's being debated here.
Utility value decreases something’s moneyness. The ideal money has 100% monetary premium, Bitcoin.
@@SteveO21Mbro Riot mining Bitcoin is literally adding utility to Bitcoin, without utility u have nothing desirable, nd u cant use something not desirable in the physical world to be desirable in the digital world. Kinda like with music, u if u could hear music in ur ears thats valuable to u, not the fact that music is stored digitally. Only great utility i see for bitcoin is if ur escaping a totalitarian state or govt it would be valuable to store ur seed phrase in ur brain rather than carrying Gold with u. But that scenario is not likely which is why i allocate 1% to it 👌🏼
Peter with #Gold combo is still undefeated
lol Peter was buried by Natalie Brunel lately 😂😂😂
1:11:10 same question from my point of you . The better answer would be to fund work on quantum protection
Bit oink is a man made professy, gold has always stood strong throughout
Automobile is man made but way better than horse mobile? 😂😂😂
Bitcoin is "an order of magnitude less uncertain than gold" I guess - now with hindsight - that debunks Pierre's entire premise.
sorry he said "orders" of magnitude. He needs to look that term up
Lol try that gold coin verification method with $100,000 worth of gold at every single transaction 😅
It's not a tough resolution to defend that gold will remain "important". I would say the chances are it will, even though i think bitcoin is a world changing epic idea the likes of which very few people understand yet. And bitcoin will continue to take gold's juice over time because it's clearly a superior way of doing the same thing. This debate could barely scratch the surface on the details of bitcoin.
Can we perhaps agree on one thing?
I think it is good to have some of both.
Even if you are the most hardcore goldbug there is. In that case, just buy 5 dollars for every 1000 you put in metals. Just having some exposes you to the asset, and it's huge upside potential. and what do you lose if you're wrong? A cup of coffee?
And to the Bitcoiners. The tangibility of gold can be both a blessing and a curse. Just get some of it, so you have someting as a backup.
Why invest in a casino when you can own it!? #gold is the only money "when" the monetary system collapses.
@@edjobkarjr.7650 I do not think so. For the simple reason that we need international settlement. Good luck doing that with gold.
In my opinion you are putting yourself in a higher risk position if you don't own AND hold (very important, don't go and day trade or whatever) ANY Bitcoin.
If diverisfying is an answer, which cryptocurrency should I buy? I think your answer is 'all of them,' and this makes your investment advice useless.
The debaters failed to address the 21st century's dawning multipolar world as a context for gold reasserting its value as a monetary standard, aided by blockchain and crypto-mediated transaction tech.
@@JaxVideos that wouldn't be my answer. My answer would be just Bitcoin, no altcoins.
Most altcoins, at least the ones I am aware of, are run by companies or influencers. Those can be manipulators and be manipulated.
Bitcoin is the only one that can't be manipulated by any individual or organization. A large majority of users with full nodes, and the miners need to agree before change happens.
You know you got brainwashed when your ideal of money is a fiat digitalized token.
USA, would you crash already.
Just hold both. Silver, real estate, and stocks too
Excellent content. I used the last dip to stock up, buying AMZT02 now its cheap, can't miss the presale.
Keith is the man! Knowledgeable and an expert in his field! When the lowest and highest bidders lose faith, does that mean #BTC has lost its trust? Be honest.
When faith is lost, Bitcoin fails. Very simple. It would be tragic though because it's our best way to offer people a good alternative out of the fiat hell that is destined to blow itself up some day.
@@MrTroydeboy Why not gold? It's only been around for 5000 years and every country recognizes it as money.
@@edjobkarjr.7650 I like Gold and I own it. Gold is harder to move around, easier for governments worldwide to limit exposure to it, less divisible, less censorship resistant and still vulnerable to centralization.
I lost trust at BTC now that it’s 65k!🤣😂😂
1:03:37 a very good question .
I'm sorry, it's 2022 already. If you still don't understand Bitcoin, it's because your ignorance does not allow you to
the problem my just be that they do and the ignotance is on thos holding a pump and dump. a argument should be made on the maret not name calling
@@Waseem_Amin debate me bro
I'm impressed with this. It's actually really intelligent and mannered.
Bitcoin and crypto in general is extraordinarily complex. Shouldn't money be a simple concept?
Money is simple, you spend it or save it for later! Bitcoin is simple, you spend it or save for later! There I make simple for you. 😂😂😂
The goal guy did a good job. The Bitcoin guy did fair. But I would still go with the queen because it’s just easier than figure out how many ounces of gold buy something
I’ve heard Amazon is killing it with AMZT02
I’m buying AMZT02 on sale, waiting for BTC to maybe drop again before I add more. Hope to take some Eth profits by Sept proof of stake
Crypto is good for portable movement of buying power independent of the current system. The problem with Gold and Silver is that it needs to be moved physically to take ownership. I truly think for purchasing BTC and its cousins are better but for holding buying power gold is better. So buy cryptocurrencies to increase your buying power and move your profits to gold and silver or platinum having both is better. Paper is for the "goi" while BTC and its cousins and gold and silver are for people who understand and can hold it long enough to make the asset profitable enough in value.
Crypto is based on a zero sum game; when the lowest and highest digital bidders lose faith, it all collapses! Be honest with yourself!
@@edjobkarjr.7650 Yup I also feel the same way about currencies and everything with current value. The value we attached to it is based on use, consensus and emotion. Just think of it Silver was in negative supply for decades due to electronics use but is value is by consensus manipulated by the paper markets which shift with the emotion of people. At the end of this its how a person learns how to get out of one asset into a different asset that will be kept to dictate a state of wealth. Both comply with the four aspects of money except gold and silver have longer history of acceptability but the question that remains is what is faster to move and dispose of or convert into another asset when push comes to shove. czcams.com/video/0oGDUGhkumk/video.html
@@edjobkarjr.7650 Have you ever asked yourself "Why haven't people lost faith in Bitcoin yet?" I asked myself this question about a year and a half ago, and my perspective will never be the same again now that I've spent a lot of time doing the necessary research to answer that question.
@@user-tu2dr3ny6x BTC is a zero sum game. Only the next bidder is holding it up.
@@edjobkarjr.7650 Ugh why do I bother? I try to be nice and encourage you to find the answers on your own, and you respond with the same boring trash people have said since 2010 lol.
Keith = economics jedi
50:40 from the security point of view . Ultimately both assets can be confiscated or stopped . I am in both assets. Love the protocol.
There is big difference. To stop Bitcoin you need to stop whole internet. And when you start it again my two nodes here in Finland start again validating and working. Other ones around the world also, even in China where Bitcoin is banned there are still nodes running and mining happening. You can't stop it and you can't know who has 12 words memorized when walking through borders.
@@21Cabins You don't need to stop the Internet. A local power outage in your small, finnish town will do the job just fine.
@@kapliger My nodes and my internet connections are backed up same as my freezers. I have server rack lifepo4 battery, solar, and genset. My bitcoin lightning node has 99.997% uptime 😎
Binance CEO talk about AMZT02 and hinted let it list on binance, cant imagine the price at 2023!.
The big advantage with gold is that it's real.
Also a big disadvantage.
In the sense that it must be moved physically to be transferred to another party.
Is mathematics fake?
@@Marshall1914 Is gold backed by anything?
@@Marshall1914 Neither is gold.
They say Gold is store of value. I say Bitcoin is a store for exchange.
In one sentence: Keith is incapable to escape fiat mindset. He always needs to exchange gold or Bitcoin to fiat to make through his thinking.
There are crypto gold tokens. PAXG is one of them.
The point that btc is much more volatile misses out, that gold at his start was as well very volatile
The problem with gold is that I don't have it.
This comment is subjective and personal, and it doesn't address any actual issue with gold as a material or commodity. Your inability to possess gold is not a problem that affects the general population or has any broader implications.
If u have a smartphone u have #Gold & #Silver bro too late 🤣💀 its too valuable for u not to own any. Same with Copper in the electrical wiring in ur house….
The captions quit at the 5:10 mark. A screamer frustrating event. They were perfect up to that point. Reason has jerked me around like this for years now. Getting so I won't even watch Reason videos anymore.
They Should’ve let Saylor have a shot at this debate.
AMZT02 has as much potential as ethereum. But unlike ethereum it has a bigger growth potential.
Imagine missing the Amazon AMZT02 on-going presale, HODL STRONG the public sale about to explode
Keith’s comments certainly aren’t aging well. Especially about Michael Saylor.
Bitcoin being unstable as a selling point only works if it's secondary to another currency
Pierre Rochard did not do a great job here. Michael Saylor absolutely crushed Frank Giustra though. Would like to see a Michael Saylor vs Keith Weiner rubber match!
Halfway through, the Bitcoin guy could be doing way better. I believe in dollar cost averaging in Bitcoin. We are moving into a digital age, no one is settling in Gold and waiting multiple days for payment that a million things could go wrong with. This shouldn't even be a debate. Bitcoin is the most powerful, decentralized computer network the world has ever known. There's no debate. Get on board or get left behind holding shiny metal
53:23 - Gold-back crypto already exists. Check out PAX Gold as one example.
Easy clap for Pierre
Is that Austin Powers hairstyle intentional?
You should buy ETH and AMZT02 if you care about your future
OK, two things: First, I don't believe Keith's hair is real. Second, the argument between gold and bitcoin is moot. They are both unique in their own properties.
Can't trust a toupee.
In response to the "collapse of society" argument, "I worry about New Yorkers..." -the late great Dr. Walter E. Williams.
And if you don't know what I'm referring to, I highly recommend checking out his speech on greedy Idaho Potato farmers and New Yorkers eating steak and potatoes that kindness would never supply them.
I think the CBDC should be backed by a basket of commodities (gold, platinum, sliver, copper, cocaine, and marijuana)
But don't lenders know that inflation will eat into their profits, and thus make the interest rate higher than it would be if the currency were stable in value.
The more I learn about Bitcoin, the more I understand why it can never truly be money. There's far too much counter-party risk associated with Bitcoin, to say nothing of its known absolute finite amount and deflationary nature. Also, there is the question of the additional layers built onto Bitcoin that may allow it to be infinitely divisible, which does away with its truly finite supply. Too many questions and uncertainty for Bitcoin. I vote Gold for sure!
Exactly, 1 EMP (while the dollar is hyper inflating) attack that lasts weeks and #Gold & #Silver from one day to the next can easily be a medium of exchange. Verifying if its real Gold & Silver would be the only downside but im sure if a later is one day built on top of Gold to transact with everyday would be a game changer
Cutting a single pizza means I have more pizza for everyone...this is your brain on drugs folks
In my opinion Gold and Bitcoin can’t even compete with eachother.
Gold can’t be exchanged digitally unless you use a reserve.
Bitcoin can’t be traded physically unless you use reserve notes.
They don’t interact at all, they have completely different uses.
It depends how you currently prefer to use fiat. Gold can replace fiat coins and bills but if you use a debit or credit, gold could not supply this use. To me the utopian result would be if banks existed to trade gold to bitcoin and vice versa and have fiat go away completely.
The problem with gold will always be that it can easily be stolen. The beauty of btc is, that you just need to memorize words in your head
@@Wurmminister As easy as Cash true.
But on the flipside, it is very difficult for the average person to keep their bitcoin safe and opens up a wide variety of problems that could go wrong.
Burying gold is an easy way to make it hidden. Especially if they had no idea you had gold at all, there wouldn’t even be an attempt to search for it.
@@LavaCanyon yeah unfortunately that's right, and for me that's in fact the biggest danger for Bitcoin, not governments. Most of the people just don't want to take responsibility for their things and money, it's much more comfortable to give power away, trust others and let them do the work :/
@@Wurmminister gold and seed phrases can both be stolen. it's not the top priority tho. you can bury both somewhere. no one is walking around with 24 and a passphrase in their head and taking the risk of not having it in the physical world as well. 12 words not enough in the future - better switch to 25
I didn't like the look of the $ETH chart yesterday and I took profits on everything and bought AMZT02.
They aren't in competition
To Keith: if you think you can trust somebody to keep your Gold, why can't you trust your government not debasing your fiat? Dollar was backed by Gold, why it broke?
AMZT02 is less that $1 just like the 2012 bitcoin days... time to buyyyyyyyyyyy
if AMZT02 can grow organically like that they will dominate that industry
you fucking murdered it Pierre.
So basically bearish on everything except amazon's AMZT02
I would prefer to be payed in something tangible than in a math problem.
... but it's the way of the future.... /s
We will rise with AMZT02 and Matic!!! Just HODL