How Shōgun Makes Translation Exciting
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This is why the UN calls them interpeters, not translators. An interpreter isn't just translating the words. They're educated on both cultures they interpret between and can help avoid faux pauxs and offending anyone.
Conversely, my partner is a translator, and she is often at pains to point out to people that she is not an interpreter, as that is an entirely different skill. She considered going into it, but it would require a whole new set of training.
An interpreter and a translator have two very different skillsets. An interpreter translates live spoken word, while a translator handles different kinds of text that are set beforehand. This can range from words on paper to audio to subtitles and anything in between.
What they do in the EU when live is interpreting. Anything else that gets translated via the EU is done by translators.
Just a bit of clarification!
A translator doesn't "just translate words" they translate culture and meaning too. Translation is text and interpretation is spoken language. Different skill sets, but both adapt one language and culture to another. It's not "just words".
@@aliquidcow Not really. Interpretation is essential to the task of translation. Especially between cultures far apart. For instance Japanese language and especially historic variants has a lot of signifiers of class differences. Those would not be present in the English/Portuguese, and thus needs to be added by the translator, interpreting where they should be.
@@Carewolf You're taking about the concept of interpretation. Of course translation requires 'interpreting' things in a literal sense. I'm talking about the job known as 'Interpreter'. The point is, interpretation on the fly for people having a conversation in real time is a very different job to translating written text, especially texts in creative fields. Many of the same principles apply, but they are different skills. Not a matter of opinion; you would need different qualifications to work as either one.
So much of communication is context. There’s an interesting quote “Translation is not a matter of words only: it is a matter of making intelligible a whole culture”
Nerdwriter1 will you please condemn the actions of your government in funding an ongoing genocide
Translating (what the words say) v Interpreting (add body language, tone everything else)
I had the same discussion in another Chanel , and the guy who made the video didn’t understand my point of view about translations made long time ago in movies , how that’s getting better in portraying culture , this video explains it better than me , how by not Americanizing characters is better for the depth of a movie and the tru portrayal of a culture or time , I hope they talked in Portuguese as well
@@LaoWatsonSmith Not just that, its how culture itself shapes a language. So when it come to translation, the culture context of the language must be taken into account.
Yeah right, the show should be in Japanese and Portuguese 🙂
But forget the Portuguese right? 😅
Kiku in Japanese: "Please tell him to visit again. I will count the moments."
Mariko translating: "She is honored"
Mariko was so jealous at that moment hahaha
@@damiloification ikr?? Maiko's actress is able to portray so much with so little
@@damiloificationNa. She understands it's just typical flowery courtesan speak (and undoubtedly how they can act as spies) and decided it's "not in my lord's interest" to encourage the liaison. 😂
@@LizardSporkI also believe that to be the case. Mariko knows how dangerous courtesans can be, even if she is unaware of Kiku's connection to Yabushigue's nephew
When he elaborated his frustration about their whole rules and cultures …
mariko: he is having a problem with his gardener!
I’ve worked as an interpreter and it’s crazy how one finds themselves unintentionally smoothing out bits of the conversation
I'd been a translator as well as an Interpreter for 30 yrs or so and yes as translator
you write what's written where as you edit detract bcs it could be misinterpreted
(misunderstood) or receiver wouldn't have a point of reference so you as an
interpreter must add information that was not said.
I don't have FX so I've not watched the show but from some of these trailers
I'd seen I really appreciated their treatments of language and class issues.
Basically, translators are honest while interpreters may deceive those they interpret for... that gives interpreters power to push their own agenda, very dangerous if unchecked.
I assume you’re monolingual? Whether interpreting or translating, you have to make changes because otherwise it would just be incomprehensible, especially between languages as different as Japanese and English. Then you have cultural differences: what you might say in one language could sound offensive or stupid or just strange if said directly in the other language, even if that was not the speaker’s intent. An interpreter’s job is to convey the intent and spirit of the message in an appropriate manner for the target language.
In any case if there is any suspicion between two parties they will usually bring their own interpreters, so if one of them just starts making stuff up they would be found out fairly quickly. @@WithmeVerissimusWhostoned
@@harfgarflarf haha, yea right,... all these 'cultural differences' is a load of bollocks, humans are humans... and unless they decide to become apes they're still humans... 'culture' is a like the clothes you wear, irrelevant once you're naked....
@@WithmeVerissimusWhostoned No, thats not the takeaway from that.
I think a super important distinction is that this is not ‘a remake’ of the 1980 series, its another adaptation of the book, one that seeks to be more authentic to period-specific Japan. Its like the distinction of Villeneuve’s Dune isnt a remake of Lynch’s. Also in this Shogun series they actually went beyond the book to be more accurate to history.
Is it good? Is it worth watching?
Very much so@@willtheprodigy3819
@@willtheprodigy3819 Yep. Episode 3 is a bit of a stumble, but everything else is excellent. The final episode doesn't air until the end of this month though.
@@willtheprodigy3819 I'm loving it! I don't watch that much TV but I haven't been this excited every week for a show since Andor and early GoT before that!
@@willtheprodigy3819maybe? Depends what you like. I think the performances are mostly fine, though not being a Japanese speaker, I can only give a very subjective opinion on some of the line delivery from the Japanese actors. I thought most of them were very good. Spanish and Portuguese characters are fine, was always happy to see them again and catch up on their plots. The John Blackthorn actor....I thought was ok. He made a few performance choices with how to portray the character that got kind of grating and monotonous and I didn't love the performance even from the start. The writing has a little bit more telling vs showing than I loved, but some narrative/backstory dialogue dumps are worked in neatly enough by having an ignorant, bullish Englishman who CONSTANTLY needs things explained to him.
It's FX, so while it's not HBO level in the gratuity of language, sex, and violence depicted on screen, there's a fair amount of all three. Pro/neutral/con, depending on your preferences, the LSV content is not ignorable.
The sets are lovely, the editing is solid, there's a few plotholes but not that bad, and Nerdwriter is correct, if you are someone who is interested in cross cultural communication and translation as a subject, then there's lots to love here. As someone who has done some comparative critiques and some original translation in grad school and loved it so much I briefly thought about changing degree programs, I mostly enjoyed the first 5 episodes, but by then I was just so annoyed every time John Blackthorn was on screen that I stopped. I might finish it, might not. Maybe his portrayal is historically accurate, I can see how it might be, but I just hate him. 🙃 If someone else who finished it agrees with me and thinks he got better at the end, lmk.
Lady Mariko is one of the best written female characters I’ve seen on screen in a while. Shes the reason I come back to the show every week. Her and Toranaga, her and Blackthorn. SO good!
That's quite a testament to the writing, and I guess in a way to Anna Sowa's acting, although I find her portrayal gratingly anachronistic in the previews. She's about as period Japanese in her intonation and manner as Charlize Theron. But I am prepared to be turned around by the full picture, it would not be the first time.
@@AndSendMe well she must be a bit of a cultural outlier as she wants to die and doesn't give a shit. She's excited for her life to have any purpose beyond being a loveless housewife, and clearly embraces her time and influence among what is essentially a desperate war council of of conniving men.
Wtf
She is so boring and a buzz kill
Since I married my Japanese wife, I have been just like this: sandwiched between two cultures and three languages. My native language is Mexican Spanish, and hers is Kansai Japanese. She learnt a lot of Spanish(not a lot, in her opinion), and I have eventually learnt enough Japanese to handle myself in most situations, but I'm far from fluent. As my Japanese skill grows, I can hear and sense the nuances involved in conveying meaning and context in both languages. We use English as a middle ground, but it can be sometimes too dry or insufficient for what we want to say. Both Spanish and Japanese have more nuance and attention to context and intention in many situations, and we both came to realize that, in many ways, both Japanese and Mexicans have roughly similar cultural sensitivity(meaning we see or notice roughly the same situations or feel when there are cultural codes at work), but we have almost opposite instinct regarding how to respond and act, which makes it very amusing, but also an act of self -restraint before acting. I can also start to feel bs around me in Japan, but we have to choose our battles, and I just try to work with the flow around me. Still, it makes watching the show all the more interesting...
Wow! Fascinating comment. And excellently conveyed. 👍🏼 In so few words you have described your relationship and growth. I’m still not sure why this was so touching. Thanks for sharing your experience❣️
Two cultures, three languages, two opposite instinct...
Now this sounds like a promising sitcom! 😂
Please give us a story of two.
Interesting. In defense of English, my third language, it's the product of countless conquests and simplifications to make it, in essence, a language of servants, of slaves, drained of humanity, purposefully.
@karlstriepe8050 I don't recognise this description of English at all. I've heard US speakers say that US English is very utilitarian because as an immigrant nation emphasis is placed on being understood. My experience in the South of England is that it is a very nuanced and subtle language, I imagine quite similar to Japanese in the attention payed to social standing and quite a complex way of being polite. Ours is the language of Shakespeare and Austen after all!
I read this comment and less than a couple of hours later I found myself listening to the FX Shogun Podcast series. I was surprised to find out that Episode 6 is directed by a Japanese-Mexican woman. She shares her experience on the episode. Todo el mejor para usted y su mujer.
There's a recent movie (The Covenant) set in Afghanistan. Jake Gyllenhaal's Green Beret goes back to the country to exfiltrate Dar Salim's character. Ahmed had previously explained that he wasn't a translator, he was an INTERPRETER.
Shogun does a masterful job of showing the difference.
spot on
Love that in the show, there are at least two characters who intentionally mistranslated to compromise Blackthorne and Blackthorne sensed their bs both times. And the best part is that Alvito seems to be the only one who never mistranslated albeit he’s the one with the most to gain if Blackthorne was in danger.
Because Alvito was the only one who couldn't lie.
Toranaga invited Mariko there precisely so she would expose Alvito in case he lied.
The series succeed in making every character as good as they know how or as bad as their enemies think of them. Avito is just trying to honor and defend both his nation interest and his own religious beliefs. Also, I'ts great seeing how much western individuality contrast with the hive mind culture of old Japan.
Father Sebastial was the first, but who is the second character who wants to compromise Blackthorne? Does Mariko want to compromise him?!
@@metasystem8625 Yes. She keeps lying to Blackthorne whenever the things someone else said made her uncomfortable.
@@curupa66 Yeah but Alvito never seemed to show any interest in lying anyways. I know he knows Mariko can speak Portugese, but Alvito is consistently portrayed to have strong, unwavering morals.
To me, that scene never emphasized Mariko's presence as to why Alvito cannot lie. In fact, I'm pretty sure before he sees Mariko he states that he doesn't need to lie, because Blackthorne's abrasiveness will show his true colors. To me, the scene more or less portrayed the fact that there are decent people no matter the faith, nationality, etc.
I think it's evident in the last episode that Blackthorne is starting to learn Japanese (like he does in the book) hence he's starting to understand that Mariko not always translates faithfully. That complicates their relationship even more! Really cool
The representation of ‘broken’ Japanese in the subtitles kind of adds to this point. Japanese sentences don’t need to contain a subject or an object, and there is a smaller range of tenses (‘the past’ and ‘not the past’, basically). So, for example, when Blackthorn says “Sawattara, shinu” (if you touch it, you will die) this is a perfectly grammatically fine, if exceedingly blunt and menacing, statement to make. If you actually intended to prohibit something on pain of death, you’d probably go for something like “te o dasu mono wa inochi o otosu” (whoever lays a hand on it forfeits his life). Broken’ Japanese usually consists in using the wrong particles, using a transitive verb when you meant to use an intransitive or vice versa, or not using auxiliary verbs. This has to be represented by writing fragmentary English where the verb and subject don’t agree etc, but doesn’t really represent the exact nature of the mistakes. The real problem, which the show depicts well, is that he hasn’t understood that casual, jocular threats of violence or murder are perfectly normal in England but are absolutely not normal in Japan. Insofar as they can be separated, the problem is less of language itself than of custom or affect. If he’d known to say something like “Sawattara, okoru” (touch it and I’ll be angry), all would have been well.
Thanks for the interesting points! I wonder how the Pheasant part plays out in the book, because in the 1980 version, Anjin never says that if you touch it you die, because like you touched upon, he knows that these people kill others for very little. Instead he only says that no one should touch it but him. Of course, the outcome is the same. It makes more sense to me that Anjin is devastated in the 1980 version, because he didn't use the word "die" at all.
@@DemonstormlordThe word 'die' isn't mentioned in the book either:
" He had already hung the pheasant under the eaves of an outhouse with careful instructions that no one, no one was to touch it but him. “Do they understand, Fujiko-san? No touching but me?” he asked with mock gravity.
“Oh, yes, Anjin-san. They all understand. So sorry, excuse me, but you should say ‘No one’s to touch it except me.’” "
In the novel as in the 1980 series, the issue is that touching the pheasant at all is forbidden, so the gardener is killed for disobeying the order. In the new series I read it that the Japanese characters focus on that disobedience, but Blackthorn gets hung up on the specific words.
V interesting and I'd agree with, the exception being the fewer tense claim. Strictly speaking, referring to verb morphology, English has two *tenses*, present and past. Everything else we commonly call tenses (perfect, continuous etc.) is aspect or a periphrastic construction with an auxiliary ("have") or a modal ("will"). The average English verb only has four conjugated forms (e.g. narrate, narrates, narrated, narrating), whereas Japanese puts much more information on the verb and also has a vastly richer auxiliary and affix system to encode meanings that often devolve to adverbs in English.
As someone who translates 1000 year old Japanese folktales and puts them up here, I cannot stress enough how accurate your description of translation is. It's a difficult process that needs to be informed by so much more than just a word for word swap.
Yet, I would always enjoy seeing both a true translated and an interpreted translated side by side. The later to understand what was said and the former to learn how the culture thinks and sees the world.
Dealing with Japanese games and animation I see it all the time. People hear a word they recognize but the subtitles don't say what they expect, so then they complain about "localization". Not understanding a thing about how a translation is supposed to convey a meaning as close to the original as possibly, it's not merely to just swap words.
Translation is adaptation and that's not a bad thing, but if you want the "true version", learn Japanese language and culture, because the purpose of a translation isn't only to be accurate to the text, but also the meaning, way more the meaning.
@@Nukle0n I agree with your main points, but there does need to be a difference between those that unrightfully complain about small changes to dialogue to help with understanding and flow... and those who deliberately change the entire meaning to insert their own political views or because "this may be offensive to western audiences". There is a reason for the whole "Eat your hamburgers, Apollo" meme or the Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid line regarding the "pesky patriarchal societal demands" (there are many more examples in that category, the Dragon Maid one is just one of the most well-known).
@@Windmelodie "eat your hamburgers" is a meme comic, but it's because they moved the setting of the series in the first game. And I generally think that was the smarter move, lets them translate the names to equally punny ones.
And yes that dragon maid one seems to be a pretty bad example, but what are you gonna do, stuff happens. Esp for anime they don't tend to get very good localizers, it's a cutthroat market because nobody wants to pay for anime.
@@Nukle0n Though sadly it's not just anime or manga, it's also video games such as US localisers forcing changes on Japanese audiences in Rune Factory 5 or even really BIG games like Final Fantasy 16. From what I have seen, it just further deepens the divide between Sub vs. Dub, as well as using fantranslations as opposed to official ones. People want to know what is actually being said as opposed to what "carries the tone, but adapted for western audiences" or whatever the localisers WANT to be said. And far too many localisers and translators simply miss that sweet spot between "keikaku means plan", "eat your hamburgers, Apollo" and whatever the hell Fire Emblem thought they were doing. And as a translator, it is your job to convey what is being SAID in a way others can UNDERSTAND it.
I think this challenge of translation and interpretation is also a part of what makes Anatomy of a Fall so great: Her struggling to interpret their relationship in a language in court, that is both foreign to her and not the language the relationship was lived through.
I’m an English speaker who works as both an Indonesian and Japanese interpreter. Each language carries with it its own subtleties, nuances, and cultural considerations. I’ve even had to do an Indonesian to Japanese conversation, which totally destroyed my brain.
Many people think that one day the role of the interpreter will be taken over by AI. Although machine-based interpretation can be effective, understanding the human requirements in person-to-person interactions is incredibly important. Knowing how to say something and why you are saying it can be just as important as what you are saying.
I am really enjoying Shogun for many reasons, with the translation being a great highlight…
Keren
The way you structured and wrote this paragraf tho, tells me that Indonesian is your mother tongue. But I can't really elaborate why.
I had no idea there was a 1980 miniseries of Shogun done first, I've really been enjoying the new one.
Starting toshiro mifune no less!
It really is worth a watch. It's very good, and not all that long. Just be willing to get past the beginning part. Blackthorne's other crew members are not very good actors and the series get dramatically better once they are out of sight.
I wonder if that translation of "grateful to be alive" purposefully changed to simple "thank you" based on her back story revealed in episode 5, being that she her self does not want to say such a thing
A buddy of mine complained to me about the show not transitioning to all English with Blackthorn learning the language. I tried to explain that the language barrier was an integral part of the story and very much deliberate. I don't think he got it in the end. Maybe sending him this video will help. Thanks.
Besides, Japanese is such a beautiful language that communicates so much in tone even to those of us who do not understand it. I love that they never go full English dialogue. It would be like dressing them all up in English clothes.
Tell your friend no one learns a language that fast, especially Japanese.
In the book, the author teaches the readers alongside Blackthorne. By the end of the book, you are understanding as much of the language as he is.
That doesn't make sense. That would mean they only speak japanese, not english.
he should just watch the dubbed version :)
About the 2024 miniseries, as a brazilian which speak Portuguese it is really weird to hear them mention they're talking in Portuguese but actually talking in English.
Voice AIs are advanced enough that for a DVD release they could translate the spoke English into spoken Portuguese in what sounds like each actor's own voice.
It's weird for me too, most of the times I forget they are talking portuguese. Portugal Portuguese it would be nice to hear
I imagine this was a deliberate decision. Finding Japanese actors fluent in Portuguese (and it has to be period accurate Portuguese) will probably take a very long time. Also, imagine having to deal with English, Japanese, and Portuguese all at once in a show. You’ll lose a lot of audiences. English served as a good substitute for Portuguese in this case.
@@alexanderwalter4595 That would be a terrible thing to do in a show that is so focused with historical accuracy.
No one gives two shits
Also most Americas now grew up watching Anime and K-dramas so we are used to seeing subtitles. I would even say with movies and television it's hard to even understand nowadays so subtitles are a must for most of us. My mom watched the original and now we are both watching the remake. After watching the Westworld remake I wondering if we would get a Shogun show in the future.
You are used to subtitles, because your dubbing is shit.
A little off topic but the actor that plays John Blackthorn, Cosmo Jarvis, used to be a moderately successful indie singer-songwriter. His music is really good and is worth checking out.
He just wants to get back to his ship so he can continue singing renditions of Gay Pirates
Wondering if he ever dabbled in scream singing. He's got the depth for it.
It’s been a while for a show that just requires ur full attention to every little details and I love it
Hey Nerdwriter, I’m extremely surprised that you didn’t touch on the distinction between translation and INTERPRETATION. The difference is significant. What Mariko is doing is the latter - same as what is done for people at high-stakes discussions.
There is no translation without interpretation. Its always a creative act, because there is no direct access to the object of underatanding. Understanding is always a fusion of horizons between subjects.
@@rafaelnunesduartei mean there is literal translation with stuff like google translate which doesn’t do any actual interpretation of the meaning of the words it’s trying to translate.
@@anamoose461 according to gadamer, at least, there is no such thing as literal. All is an aproximation, not exact translation. Because of the subjective nature of meaning. Literal translation is a fiction, accepted for pratical purpuses.
@@anamoose461 That's arguably still an interpretation, and probably a worse one. You're losing the cultural nuance of word choices, subtle differences in meaning, puns and other wordplay, cultural idioms, etc.
Google Translate will translate
"watashi to shourai ni ikimashou" and
"ore to mirai e ikuzo"
to the exact same thing. "Let's go to the future."
But in Japanese the first sentence is a lot more formal. The speaker chose a bland inoffensive first-person pronoun, the 'future' referred to is a relatively near-future, and the verb is in a formal, polite form. It feels like something you'd hear someone at an Airport say as they escorted you to the plane. A time-travel plane.
In the second one the speaker uses a casual semi-arrogant masculine first-person pronoun, the future referred to is a distant one, the 'e' emphasizes the journey between now and the distant future, and the verb is a very informal, almost yakuza-adjacent form of the verb. It feels like something you'd hear a guy in a seedy bar say to you as he opened a door to a back room, a door that started your long journey to being Yakuza in the distant future. I just really wanted to use two similar words with different meanings and 'future' was the first one I thought of.
But literally they both mean, "Let's go to the future."
The only difference is that translation is written while interpretation is spoken. The distinction only matters is the sense that they are different skill sets used in different contexts. Yeah it would have been technically more accurate to say "interpretation" in the video, but that's just a pedantic distinction.
Nerdwriter: 2024. Twelve years on, thank goodness Evan is still making video essays. In these times of change and endless consternation it is a comfort to have this digital safe haven.
I am always entertained and enlightened. Thank you Evan.
My family watched Shogun (miniseries) over and over when I was a kid. It was my dad's favorite book as well. I'm loving the new series.
as a Portuguese, I love when the actors are speaking Portuguese /s
Had no idea there was another adaptation! I think at times the dialogue is just shot like action scenes when it's just people talking, but there are ways to make that dialogue / conversation engaging or interesting. Marikos' use of words definitely caught my attention and made every conversation with her more
Edit: made sure to correct the show as it's own original adaptation of the Novel. Thank you for correcting me!
The new show is based on the same book, not the original show.
It's not a remake though.
It's a new adaptation of the book itself.
The 1980 version chose to be fully focused on Blackthorne's perspective so we as the audience also felt the same isolation as a stranger in far away lands as he does.
The 2024 version chose to follow closer to the book (and more to make it more period correct).
Corrected.
For people looking for more media focused on translation, the book "Babel" by R.F. Kuang is a great low-fantasy novel dealing with the Opium Wars and translation
This show is so well written and great it's insane
I haven’t read the book in a while but this series handling of Mariko is exceptionally well done. The writing, performance and direction of the character is so compelling that she feels like the main character to me.
Blackthorne is the one making things happen and driving the narrative, but Mariko is the heart of the show. Seeing her reactions to what Blackthorne/Toronaga say and her massaging of words in her translations is utterly captivating.
This looks like a great shō
There's also the fact that no matter how hard you try some words are impossible to translate without losing the depth of their meaning.
True
I was first introduced to Shogun via the 1980 miniseries... then the book, and now the netflix series.
I love your commentary on how translation/interpretation has become a focal point of this series, and how the tension between what is said and what is translated is such an important part of this experience!
First Nerdwriter1 video I've watched in years. How did I forget about this gem of a channel? So glad you're still creating!
The joy of growing up in a bilingual household quite fun when you have to act as the translator between two worlds while keeping clear of misunderstandings.
Most of the times we just translate word by word, but sometimes we have to interpret in order to get the meaning across.
I love how she was interpreting both sides quite well, might give this show a watch.
I absolutely love how Shogun has been using language and subtitles in such a unique manner, and I'm so glad Nerdwriter1 came to talk about this! Thanks as always!
As a translator myself I absolutely loved how Mariko was crucial to the story even though it was told from Blackthorne's POV. And she spoke 3 languages too!
It's really interesting how your video essays perfectly articulate what I, as a viewer, can only appreciate nonverbally. The translation in the show has fascinated me from the start, and the way you described it, materialized my thoughts exactly. Great video as usual!
I definitely like what they've done here.
I work as a transcriptionist. Primarily, I do legal work, but sometimes I also do business meetings. One of the most interesting ones I had to work on was English/Japanese. Each side brought translators to share the burden of translation and keep everyone honest. But one of the most interesting things that happened was the two translators eventually having a sidebar trying to find the best way to translate some sort of common expression or idiom from Japanese to English. They were trying to go over both what the word individually mean and then what the expression itself meant and trying to find a "correct" way to say the thing. Neither was trying to be dishonest, they were just both struggling with the right words.
Great to see the showrunner/creator of Counterpart with JK Simmons utilize his strengths in storytelling other series. Hope he does something similar in the sci-fi or thriller realm in the future.
As an active interpreter who translates (interprets 😊) simultaneously between multiple language pairs, I truly appreciate your take on translation and drawing Shōgun‘s audience‘s attention to this intricate, diplomatic and very demanding task/job! Arigatō gozaimasu! 🙏🏻
One of the thing I noticed in the Japanese that isn't covered in the subtitles is how keigo is used. This is a polite form of speaking and its fun hear rough characters switching to keigo when they talk to torunaga
The literal "die" mistranslation example in the show, so interesting and impactful. Thanks for the video and recommending this series!
I work as a translator specializing in English to Arabic translation, and I must confess, conveying cultural nuances and concepts between two languages is a formidable task, fraught with challenges and intricacies.
i gotta admit i only picked up this series after season 1 again cause u made a video essay about this, finally all caught up and this is among the best telveision ive seen in some time. Thank you!
I love it. I'm glad there are still creators who respect their audience that get to create high quality shows that arent catered to those with prohibitive attention spans.
I worked subtitling Japanese television shows into English for 18 years so all this is familiar to me. The only reason I haven't continued with it is the relatively low salary of the translator. It's a lot of work.
Thank you for putting this out just as I finished the series
That scene also struck me as well. I think it's possible to translate something of those nuances, but only by adding a lot of additional phrases that aren't literally there.
Like in English we often distinguish polite from plain speech by a similar means as Japanese - speaking more indirectly and with more qualifiers. I.e. "Can you do this for me?" vs. "If it's not too much trouble, would you be so kind as to do this for me, please?" Japanese just takes thar concept deeper and hs different conjugation forms as well as even more words which mean the same thing but with different levels of politeness.
Thank you for noticing and commenting on this.
As someone who has been watching anime for a long time and has picked up a lot on their dialogue and mannerisms, Shogun 2024's actual Japanese dialogue translation often deliberately does not translate keigo well, sometimes omits it entirely and often certain cultural words are also replaced that most people who have not seen other Japanese media will not realize they are missing.
For a video essay talking about the strength of translation at bridging the gap between cultures, for the show's literal hardcoded translated subtitles to omit these things is odd to me.
If you already trust the viewer to be intelligent and being willing to learn, why omit these things which add more context to the characters and situations?
One of your best works in a while. Loved it thoroughly.
Patrick Willem’s discussion of translation in the Hunt for Red October is another brilliant look at how filmmakers explore areas of similarity and difference - the one word that is the same in both the characters’ languages, English and Russian, is “Armageddon”
They just forgot the Spanish and Portuguese....
Don't watch the show if that bothers you! Very easy fix!
@@LeoCannotPark you are a dummy aren't you?
@@LeoCannotPark I enjoyed the show, thanks. This video is praising the show's approach to subtitles and translation but it fails to mention that Portuguese and Spanish characters are speaking english. It did bother me because it's inaccurate. Maybe it would be confusing to have so many languages, but that's just how it was at the time.
The book obviously makes great use of translation as part of the story, but also Blackthorne's gradual learning of Japanese. Especially before he has Mariko translating for him, there are recurring untranslated Japanese words, and Blackthorne (along with the reader) guesses and deciphers what they mean.
Best series of the year (so far?)
Well, the first adaptation was my favourite series for some decades, so...
@@miskatonic6210 it’s a great one. But have you seen this one? Brutal
Long story short; The fellow playing Toranaga is also a producer, and he has made the Japanese story subtle and grand. The translation conundrum of the characters, so well pointed out in this vid, shows this. I wish my Japanese was better!
Glad someone made a video on it!
This show is even more interesting and entertaining to me, someone who understands both English and Japanese. English subtitles do not always perfectly translate the true meaning and subtle nuances of the actual Japanese expressions of the time. I enjoy the depth and art of the translations by watching it over and over again!
🎌📜 Shogun's approach to translation is truly captivating! It adds a whole new dimension to the art of language! 🌟📖
As an aspiring writer I’m marvel at Shogun’s ability to transform lengthy conversations often about repetition and seeking of understanding into, meaningful exchanges. It’s the very hardest thing you can do when writing I think
This show is so great, and I appreciated this take! A very interesting concept!
SO HAPPY TO SEE YOU BACK!
The interpretation of one’s words is so important to the show. I haven’t seen the dubbed version of the show, but I assume much of that complexity is left out when everyone just speaks english
Loving Shōgun so far! Great vid!
Language is born from our inability to transfer our experience to others. It is a compromise in itself, a tense and finicky agreement upon a community of communities, among many communities.
Traduttore, traditore.
Translating: been doing this my whole life since I am not a native English speaker. When you're good, it's as easy as flicking an imaginary switch [in linguistics they call it code-switching].
i feel like it's more interpretting than translating, though mariko does still act on her own motives/values when it matters
There is no translation without interpretation. Its always a creative act, because there is no direct access to the object of underatanding. Understanding is always a fusion of horizons between subjects.
Literally what she's doing is interpreting and not translating, but that's only because she does it verbally and not written. But for the purposes of this video essay it doesn't change anything to use the more common colloquial "translating" as a catch all term.
@@rafaelnunesduartewhat in the abstract forsaken heck are you on about? If it’s verbal, it’s interpreting , if it is written it is translating
@@cosmolove its just hermeneutics! You can interpret any text. By interpret, i mean understand. By text, i mean anything we can attribute meaning to it. Search for thinkers like gadamer, heiddeger, husserl, if you are interested! Or dont! Do what suits you!
@@cosmolove i think we are having a misunderstanding. Seems like we are attributing a different meaning to the Word "interpret". While i read interpret as "understand", you read it as "enact", like an actor interpret a character in a play. Both meanings are valid. I understand what you are saying. But what i was saying is that, to translate or interpret something, you have to understand it, you have to attribute some meaning to the text.
Nerdwriter might not cover many shows, but each time he does, it's ones that goes beyond what's hot at the moment. Like Succession, Shogun really reveals the depth, the limitations, and the weight of language.
It truly shows the messiness of human connection and how much we disregard everyday. While AI translation is undeniably helpful, I do fear that we could loss the actual intention behind each single word choice.
This is a very amazing insight about the great show!!
I find it interesting how the two shows handle perspective and understanding so differently. Yet they are so far at least complementary to one another.
Great vid! I love the show and this is one of the many reasons!!
Agreed. The translation segment is amazing. One reason why I enjoy the show every week. 4 episodes left😭
i read this book when i was a teen and my concern that the tv would be problematic kept me from watching it. your video changed my mind, and i am really, Really loving the show. THANK YOU for your perspective and insight!
just finished watching episode 6 and this is hands down one of the best shows ever made
I've worked as an interpreter between french and Latin American Spanish, chiefly from french, and despite the fact it's fairly easy to translate word for word between those, the culture is very different. Sometimes, while you can say the same thing word for word, that's not how you'd say it, and to say the same meaning you have to change things. Furthermore, a lot of the way french people talk to each other feels aggressive, even scary to Latin American speakers, and certainly blunt and more honest than is welcome.
This became apparent to me in episode 6 when she directly translates in the Willow World because then we know she is choosing when to translate directly and when to interpret - such a good show. And this video helped me see things I didn't before.
I want more TV/Movies like this.
This video makes me remember about Bong Joon Ho's speech in Oscar: "Once you overcome the one-inch tall barrier of subtitles, you will be introduced to so many more amazing films"
I saw this show trending but After your video I will watch it
The most translated text ever, The Bible, is constantly being carefully updated to better reflect the original word choice and meaning with current language nuances.
Does that mean the commandment is now
Thou shalt not unalive?
😂
Great video, as always! I’ve been loving the show! The only thing that bothers me is, as a brazilian, the fact that in the series portuguese is spoken as english. If they went to such lengths to translate everything and had the audacity of making a TV series with primarily japanese dialogue, it would’ve been so cool if they actually spoke portuguese aswell. We would’ve even more of a cultural clash and the translation scenes would go even crazier. I get that casting actors that could speak japanese and portuguese and a british one that could speak portuguese must be hard, but man, such a shame.
For sure, though because it is made for an English audience you would then have to add ANOTHER layer of interpretation which would further obscure the meaning. Since we are supposed to only completely understand Blackthorne, who is English, I think they made the right choice. Maybe they will do a Portuguese dub though
I think the main challenge with that is the added degree of difficulty in finding actors who fit the roles who ALSO speak Japanese and Portuguese, which is significantly less common than Japanese to English. I think it's a fair criticism you have, though, but it's undone by practicality.
@@hollandscottthomas yeah, I think that's most likely the case, I can cut them some slack hahaha. I think you would only be able to find brazilian actors with japanese descent, but even then they would have to pull off the old portuguese accent, so yeah, tough af. but man, as a portuguese speaker, there are some scenes that I would get so freaking hyped if they were actually speaking the language. anyways, that most likely only bothers portuguese speakers anyhow.
Interesting perspective I did not know that about the old show Shogun thank you !
This series is one of the greatest that I have ever watched. Granted it's place on my shelf beside Spartacus, Vikings, Rome, Borgias...
Culture plays such an important role in communication and is probably the hardest part of language learning to grasp. You have to be so humble as a second-language speaker. You will never know as much as even a native 10 year old. There are subtleties you just can't learn from books.
Amazing video as always :)
There was this one popular skit (I don't remember whether it was a local German one or something from America), where they show a literal translator in a conversation between the mob and some guy.
And literal translator was just what it says. If A says: "I (A) want something", the translator would say "I want something" but B would understand it as "I (T) want something" and then ask the translator why he would want that in this situation.
This went on for a couple minutes and was pretty funny.
Translation is almost its own, main character in this story.
This makes me think of the movie Sound of Metal about a man who gradually becomes deaf and has to learn sign language. At the beginning there are entire conversation in sign language that aren’t translated because the audience has to be as lost as the protagonist. It’s only after he takes lessons and practices that we start having subtitles.
I worked as an interpreter for engineers who worked on the venues for the Tokyo Olympics - my boss was a typically blunt Northern Englishman with little regard for the subtle politeness of Japanese culture.
I can certainly confirm that allowing the 'meaning' of the words to not cloud the way that they are spoken is a real struggle when the method of communication - not just the words - is drastically different between two cultures. It also didn't help that any modern Japanese person will know the words "fuck" and "shit", which my boss used liberally and I wasn't able to hide it since, well, they knew exactly how my boss was communicating 😅😅😅 I do wish I had had Mariko's grace and wit when translating on the fly!
Loved the show!
Mariko not just translating, she also localizationing
I’ve been watching the series whilst also reading the book for the first time and I really love how they’ve done the show. The book is wonderful, but the show has given the interactions between the Japanese characters more nuance by making it not just in full Japanese, but in period Japanese. I’m a Japanese speaker, and whilst following the period Japanese is difficult, you certainly do pick up the way changes in keigo (polite Japnanese) to more blunt Japanese changes the mood of conversations, as does the way they talk around things instead of addressing them directly.
Everyone in the show: Toranaga lost his damn mind!
Everyone watching: Let Him Cook!
I'm trilingual and really think they did a good job, the translation isnt direction word to word but much more nuance and culturally sensitive & comprehensive
Another JE translator chiming in! Sadly I haven't gotten to see the show (it's only available through Disney+ in Japan), but it's been interesting to see the response from people outside of Japan! The first time I read the subtitles, I was so confused as to why they left so many Japanese words in. Though this rule varies from company to company, we try to keep works from the source language to a minimum to reduce the time it takes to read a phrase (I think for subtitles, the rule is something like 21 characters per second). We you leave words from the source language, it can often eat into the reading time and distract the viewer, but I do see how it can be used as a world-building technique now!
I am curious as to how to works with the Japanese subtitles though. Was the same care taken to differentiate between the two? Or did they just go straight for translating the words being said. Might have to activate that 1-month free trial to find out!
you've immediately made me want to watch this show.
I haven't seen either show, but this was a major part of the book so I'm glad to see it reflected well in the new show.
some of the ideas about the nuances of translation across languages were really interestingly explored in Babel by RF Kuang! Super riveting book :D
really missed your videos man!
Missandei from the island of Naath was a similarly spectacular translator.
This show is so incredible I don't even know what to do with myself. It's so good.
Being from and living in Sweden I watched this with Swedish subtitles and I think a lot of nuance was lost. Like many swedes I'm more or less fluent in English and I think it'll be worth a re-watch with original subs.
It also really tripped me up that the first few scenes between the Blackthorn and his captain were in English and they proceeded to speak English the whole show and calling it Portuguese. Still not sure if that first conversation was supposed to be English or Portuguese in fiction, if remember correctly the ship was Dutch?
Being so used to subtitles it seems like such a weird choice to not just have Portuguese and Japanese be the spoken languages and not have actual Portuguese characters speak English with a different accent. I get it from a financial stand point ofc but still.
Great show! Great video! Thanks!
As an interpreter you always have to "smooth the edges" a little bit during conversation. Aside from good understanding of language, translator has to be equally skilled in diplomacy which is why this job is more difficult than most people realize. Speaking from experience.
I always wondered why in Star Wars the translator machines were called 'protocol droids', but now it makes a lot more sense.