This is a reading of the Gorgias, one of the great Socratic dialogues written by Plato. The audio, I believe, comes from ukemi. #philosophy #plato #socrates #ethics
Shows were we are at. I hope more than anything it's a test of some sort. Otherwise we are in so much trouble for reading this. Some day they will try and burn the books and then burn us.
@@longcastle4863 Sure. A for effort. He sparked an enduring intellectual itch. Meanwhile Wall Street Lawyers live in mansions and donate to charity . And Corporate Billionaire s build university dorms and labs with their names on them. So nothing has actually changed. All in the name of virtue. Because his sophistry didn't actually work, Plato wrote the Republic - about indoctrinating youth to an ideology in the name of virtue. And Aristotelian ethics is the basis for Christian ideology (prior mythology notwithstanding) So, sure a most admirable character. A pleasure read and ponder....
(447a-527e) Gorgias. The dialogue naturally falls into three divisions, to which the three characters of Gorgias, Polus, and Callicles respectively correspond Socrates is deferential towards Gorgias playful and yet cutting with the youthful Polus, ironical and sarcastic with Callicles.
Rhetoric is certainly an art, and there is more to this art than mere flattery. Yes, like many other arts, it aims at producing pleasure... But it surely is built upon the understanding of a human nature that is more ignorant than wise, more gullible than discerning, more pleasure-seeking than wisdom-loving. At the end of the day, I regret to inform Socrates, that most people see the value of enjoying life much more than ever see any real value in examining it. Is it real happiness, or only the illusion of happiness that comes from primarily seeking pleasure ? You decide.
Justice is not simply a kind of knowledge, it is primarily an art. Like the boxer, it is not enough simply to know the principles and skills required for the art, one must actually practice the art until it becomes habitual (or second-nature). This was the advance made by Aristotle on the foundation laid-down by Socrates and Plato.
Rhetoric is certainly an art, and there is more to this art than mere flattery. Yes, like many other arts, it aims at producing pleasure... But it surely is built upon the understanding of a human nature that is more ignorant than wise, more gullible than discerning, more pleasure-seeking than wisdom-loving. At the end of the day, I regret to inform Socrates, that most people see the value of enjoying life much more than ever see any real value in examining it. Is it real happiness, or only the illusion of happiness that comes from primarily seeking pleasure ? You decide.
most perhaps spend life trying to enjoy it asss they see it, others maybe are more concerned with the nature of enjoyment ,perhaps each brings a form of happiness
The utilitarian J. S. Mill observed that the only people who are able to speak on the issue knowledgeably are the ones who have tried both types of happiness: the happiness that comes from examining one's life, and the happiness that comes from the pleasure of hearing exactly what you want to hear at just the moment when you want to hear it. So, it's not a matter of taking a poll. Hume observed that there is no necessary conclusion you can draw based on what is, to what ought to be. (Mill commented that he, personally, would rather be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied.)
@@l.w.paradis2108 As a utilitarian, was it not the position of Mill that pleasure alone is the sole good ? If so, would it even matter where one got his pleasure ? I am far from endorsing this utilitarian ideal of the good myself -- that was certainly not my intention. I don't believe pleasure is the only good, or that it matters the amount of pleasure -- as in 'the greatest pleasure for greatest number.' No, that certainly wasn't my intention. But 'dissatisfaction' is more than just a lack of pleasure, and so enjoyment (or satisfaction) is more than mere pleasure as well. I think the point I was trying to make is that philosophy must justify itself by making it clear to men that we can become more than either just satisfied pigs or Socrates unsatisfied. No, if philosophy has any real value at all, it must show us the way to become Socrates satisfied.
@@l.w.paradis2108 I think the other point I was trying to make is that Plato's attempt to disparage rhetoric as not being an art is misguided. Rhetoric is certainly an art -- and it is, like many arts, aimed at producing pleasure and perhaps an aesthetic satisfaction. The larger question is whether or not rhetoric or even art as a whole -- as in Romanticism -- suffices to produce satisfaction with life ? Of course, the same question must not only be asked of rhetoric and art, but of philosophy itself. Can there really be any other justification for any human endeavor than its resulting in a greater satisfaction with life as a whole -- not simply terms of our primal animal pleasure, but in satisfying our human nature as a whole ?
There should be an Oscar for such a reading.
I agree
rite.
Shows were we are at. I hope more than anything it's a test of some sort. Otherwise we are in so much trouble for reading this. Some day they will try and burn the books and then burn us.
@@Platochidi what?
Dude my boy Callicles came out spittin! Thought he had Socrates with the folding chair for a second 😵
He’s almost like greek Nietzsche lol
read the selective breeding and the birth of philosophy
Had to read this in graduate school. Much more pleasure in listening to the argument unfold. Thanks. Socrates as the greatest Sophist of them all.
huge difference is he doesn't accept payment.
Not so huge. It is the epistemology that counts. Not the social morality. @@metsrus
I used to teach first order propositional logic. In a department of Philosophy.@@metsrus
Socrates had different goals than the Sophist, imo, and was genuinely looking for answers that would help humankind get along better
@@longcastle4863 Sure. A for effort. He sparked an enduring intellectual itch. Meanwhile Wall Street Lawyers live in mansions and donate to charity . And Corporate Billionaire s build university dorms and labs with their names on them. So nothing has actually changed. All in the name of virtue. Because his sophistry didn't actually work, Plato wrote the Republic - about indoctrinating youth to an ideology in the name of virtue. And Aristotelian ethics is the basis for Christian ideology (prior mythology notwithstanding) So, sure a most admirable character. A pleasure read and ponder....
Back then they were beyond our years in knowledge of everything important ❤
(447a-527e) Gorgias. The dialogue naturally falls into three divisions,
to which the three characters of Gorgias, Polus, and Callicles respectively correspond
Socrates is deferential towards Gorgias
playful and yet cutting with the youthful Polus,
ironical and sarcastic with Callicles.
I like the reader.
He read it as if he wrote it
thank you 🙏
So funny, trying to make the young man understand. Great upload, very engaging.
Thank You...
Art and Knowledge...
A knowledgeable Artist,
Or
An Artistic Scientist..
I'm listening
Rhetoric is certainly an art, and there is more to this art than mere flattery. Yes, like many other arts, it aims at producing pleasure... But it surely is built upon the understanding of a human nature that is more ignorant than wise, more gullible than discerning, more pleasure-seeking than wisdom-loving. At the end of the day, I regret to inform Socrates, that most people see the value of enjoying life much more than ever see any real value in examining it. Is it real happiness, or only the illusion of happiness that comes from primarily seeking pleasure ? You decide.
Justice is not simply a kind of knowledge, it is primarily an art. Like the boxer, it is not enough simply to know the principles and skills required for the art, one must actually practice the art until it becomes habitual (or second-nature). This was the advance made by Aristotle on the foundation laid-down by Socrates and Plato.
What translation is this?
Benjamin Jowett
Gorgias was based
Oscar knows "ONLY"read er ICK....😩😮🪞👁️🤔
Rhetoric is certainly an art, and there is more to this art than mere flattery. Yes, like many other arts, it aims at producing pleasure... But it surely is built upon the understanding of a human nature that is more ignorant than wise, more gullible than discerning, more pleasure-seeking than wisdom-loving. At the end of the day, I regret to inform Socrates, that most people see the value of enjoying life much more than ever see any real value in examining it. Is it real happiness, or only the illusion of happiness that comes from primarily seeking pleasure ? You decide.
most perhaps spend life trying to enjoy it asss they see it, others maybe are more concerned with the nature of enjoyment ,perhaps each brings a form of happiness
Justice is Wisdom and Factual knowledge: Enlightenment for the mind; rhetoric is Recreational Art and Conceptual knowledge: Pleasure for the masses.
The utilitarian J. S. Mill observed that the only people who are able to speak on the issue knowledgeably are the ones who have tried both types of happiness: the happiness that comes from examining one's life, and the happiness that comes from the pleasure of hearing exactly what you want to hear at just the moment when you want to hear it. So, it's not a matter of taking a poll. Hume observed that there is no necessary conclusion you can draw based on what is, to what ought to be.
(Mill commented that he, personally, would rather be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied.)
@@l.w.paradis2108 As a utilitarian, was it not the position of Mill that pleasure alone is the sole good ? If so, would it even matter where one got his pleasure ? I am far from endorsing this utilitarian ideal of the good myself -- that was certainly not my intention. I don't believe pleasure is the only good, or that it matters the amount of pleasure -- as in 'the greatest pleasure for greatest number.' No, that certainly wasn't my intention. But 'dissatisfaction' is more than just a lack of pleasure, and so enjoyment (or satisfaction) is more than mere pleasure as well. I think the point I was trying to make is that philosophy must justify itself by making it clear to men that we can become more than either just satisfied pigs or Socrates unsatisfied. No, if philosophy has any real value at all, it must show us the way to become Socrates satisfied.
@@l.w.paradis2108 I think the other point I was trying to make is that Plato's attempt to disparage rhetoric as not being an art is misguided. Rhetoric is certainly an art -- and it is, like many arts, aimed at producing pleasure and perhaps an aesthetic satisfaction. The larger question is whether or not rhetoric or even art as a whole -- as in Romanticism -- suffices to produce satisfaction with life ? Of course, the same question must not only be asked of rhetoric and art, but of philosophy itself. Can there really be any other justification for any human endeavor than its resulting in a greater satisfaction with life as a whole -- not simply terms of our primal animal pleasure, but in satisfying our human nature as a whole ?