Road Tuning | Can I Tune Ignition Timing Without A Dyno? [HPA Q&A]
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- čas přidán 23. 03. 2019
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Dynos are tools...... The benefits from tuning on a Dyno are usually so you can see your power band and the ability to shift your power band when advancing/retarding the ignition. Adj cam gears are easy to tune on dynos. One of the downfalls is that the Dyno is a constant variable in testing but, when you drive on the street your car could behave differently because of the load difference. I prefer street tuning because it's really going to be the data the car sees on the road with all the elevation changes. Cars should be Dyno tuned first then make changes once you drive it on the street.
You should always confirm your tuning in real-world conditions after dyno tuning. This is the last step of the HPA step by step tuning process (10 steps for aftermarket ECUs, 6 for factory reflash tuning) - Taz.
I have a mk7 VW Golf R. The biggest advantage to a dyno for me, is that the parts I have are more than capable of making more torque than the stock internals can handle. So a dyno can be useful for knowing when we are close to the end of the safe zone. On the street, I wouldn't know until it's too late.
Great video. I had learn to tune with and without a Dyno.
what would you recommend to a newbee at performance tuning to get boned up on where to set the advance/retard curve on tc88 motorcycle ignition modules?
I did some road tuning with my microtech ltc9 and my buddy that previously tuned my mr2 was telling me to be careful that i will see different afrs on the dyno, since microtech doesnt have closed loop tuning....Is this true?
Thank you
I thought he was taking a bong rip for a split second
Very interesting topic. If i have a naturally aspirated engine which is not knock limited, is it possible to get some indication about the torque by monitoring manifold vacuum while using cruise control to maintain constant speed? If engine produce more torque it should have more vacuum. Maybe i m wrong. In that case please correct me.
unless you can have a constant load like a propeller or a fan part throttle vacuum is not accurate
Virtual Dyno software works well. So does logs comparing 60-80mph times to see if timing makes it quicker.
We have not had repeatable results with the accuracy required to tune a performance engine from Virtual Dyno software ourselves, but the comment does pop up every now and again from others that they have success although some peoples interpretation of what is an acceptable margin of error is quite different to what we would accept when it comes to accuracy - Taz.
@@hpa101 When I was 4g63 in my 3000GT, I tuned it only by street pulls, virtual dyno, 60-80mph comparison and looking at plugs. Ran 9.65@143, at 37psi. Ran up to 50psi on the street. I know there wasn't much left as I also remote tune 3000GTs on AEM and tune with only logs and virtual dyno. One made 735awhp when he put it on a dynojet. They added 2 degrees and only picked up 12hp, so they smartly took it back out and back to my exact map from remote tuning, virtual dyno. I only left on the table what I had wanted to leave for a little safety factor. It works. Must be a flat road, no wheel spin, and good logs. Plus with street tuning, you know its tuned in the exact conditions, unlike a dyno. For AWD cars I much prefer street/track tuning since they aren't as traction limited. RWD cars are different. On my personal car, street tune until traction is an issue, then the rest at the track.
@@4familyman whats the best virtual dyno software your using?
@@FITechDavao virtualdyno.net is what I have used. Needs to be a flat and smooth road. If it is, seems fairly accurate to itself.
@@4familyman thank u
Regarding to battery in my case, nowadays because of the curfew i am not moving my car so after howmany days should I ignition my car and for how long?
Hi HPA,
In my experience, not cars but a small cc motorcycles. Not all engines will knock if you increase the ignition timing. So it's really hard to use the knocking sensor to sync with my datalogger. We tune IGN on the street by our feels.. but of course, I am always looking for a way to get better data. Can we use data from GPS sensor like Gforce? it is it the same with torque. we just use the speed data
Colour tune spark plug?
So how do you know when to add or take away timing when doing street tune?
advance till knock and retard but that’s assuming your density correction factors and other data is accurate
Shouldn't you be able to detect the point at which you go past MBT with an oxygen sensor? As you advance the ignition past MBT the combustion event will be less efficient so providing you don't change your fueling, the difference in unburned oxygen should show up with the Lambda sensor?
Interesting thought, but I'm not sure it would work that way in practice because improper combustion would also tend to leave more unburned fuel.
Why couldn't torque be inferred from some of the PIDs in the tuning software when driving down the road? Get the weight of the vehicle. Then take velocity of the car (angular rotation of the wheel & wheel size).
You could, but not with enough accuracy.
Best to be conservative and get close than try push things with guess work and potentially pay the price.
As Andre stated you can get very close with road tuning as it stands - Taz.
@@hpa101 figured that might be reason. Thanks for prompt response :)
So was the answer to buy your road tuning coarse?
Have another listen =) - Taz
3 questions....
with a stock cam, carburetor and no emissions. when setting timing at speed and UNDER LOAD, how many degrees retarded from the knock threshold should the engine timing be, to be safe to run? (when listening to the knock by ear without a listening device).....
all things being equal, does the "safe zone" (the amount in degrees the distributor is retarded away from knock threshold) change noticeably on a 4, 6, or 8cyl engine?......
on my engine, when under load, there is about 10-12 degrees between the "audible knock threshold" and where the engine power "drops suddenly" as the timing is retarded away from the knock... should the timing be set in the middle of this 15 degree range, or slightly closer to the knock, or closer to where the power suddenly drops off?... within the range, where would give the most power and where would be the safest for the engine without worry of the silent but still damaging spark knock?... which is really more of an issue with a boat engine than it is with an automotive engine...
Hey Greg, there is no way to know where the threshold is without tuning and finding it. Every engine is different, and different fuels will give different thresholds/limits so until you know, there is no way to know.
Not the answer you were hoping for I know sorry, but just like MBT it is something that can't be calculated before hand, the engine tells you where it is via tuning - Taz.
@@hpa101 I know where the threshold is, and its easy to find when under power, but I want to know about how far from where the pinging stops as im retarding it, is a safe distance for it to run.... its a linear measure made in degrees, and anyone who routinely tunes on a dyno should know about how far in degrees from were the pinging stops, that the engine will be reasonably safe to run...
when the timing is advanced so far its causing detonation, one can retard the distributor to minimize the ping, and even after the ping has been silenced and cant be heard, there is still a bit of detonation happening in the cylinder.... do we need to retard another 2 degrees from this point, or 10 degrees?.....
@@gregpatey6355 Can i ask something. If a car was tune from factory to use ron95, does the knock sensor tell the ecu to maximize ignition timing when using ron97?
@@vigossvirus666 Depends on how the manufacturer set up the ECU. On some cars, the knock sensor is an active part of the ignition system and the ECU constantly uses it to optimize timing. However, on others, the knock sensor isn't actively used and it's only there to tell the ECU to retard the timing for self preservation in case something is wrong such as the fuel's octane not being high enough.
what do you do if the ecu dont have knock control? i have an elite 750 so im too afraid of the timing table lol, but its going to be a very long time before i can afford a dyno tune because of covid my disposable income is non existant lol but im too scared to road tune the turbo car with no knock control, the engine is solid mounted and the interior is stripped so its a very noisey enviorment and im afraid i wont hear the knock or realize its knock im hearing if you know what i meen, minimum boost on wastegate is 16psi and shooting for 25psi as the goal for this setup when tuned properly. another thing im afraid of, is the ca18det engine has the same cam sensor as an rb25 and the cam belt deflection timing creep problem, so it needs to be super conservative anyway, and the reality is i was planning on getting a PRP trigger kit before starting/tuning the motor, but because of covid, my finances wont support that for some time, i just want to figure out a super conservative tune so i can enjoy the car a little bit, run the engine in under load properly, and work out all the bugs and issues over the next few months and hopefully next year ill be able to afford the good trigger kit and dyno time and have a smooth experence.
You can use something like a Tuner Nerd Knock Monitor Pro, Link Knock Block or a Plex Knock Monitor V2 etc. You can move these from car to car too, or even sell it one once you have finished your tuning.
Even in a quiet car, when it comes to a performance engine, if you can hear knock with just your ears it's too late as damage is already being done.
Check out this article here: www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/dont-waste-your-time-listening-for-knock/ - Taz.
@@hpa101 thanks man your the best, once my money situation comes good again i cant wait to sign up for some more in-depth knowledge, thanks
What are the signs of a bad dyno tune of the timing is off?
There are a few, this isn't a really straight forward questions to answer in comments section that respect sorry, but 2 basics would be detonation and also the shape of the map. If you look at the 3D graph and there are odd peaks or troughs often this is a sign something is wrong with the tune or with part of your setup - Taz.
How we can find near optimal ignition timing on boosted engine without knock sensors?
We have no advice for tuning without a knock sensor on a boosted engine other than to fit a knock sensor. They are much, much cheaper than an engine rebuild. There are no safe shortcuts here - Taz.
Having trouble understanding your words and sentences. VERY GOOD info just having hard time understanding the details
Sorry about that, give the captions a crack. Lauren here does them all for you guys so you don't have to rely on those crappy auto ones :) - Taz.
I understand you perfectly well thanks..
If you going down the tunning world, dyno think best.
If you have access to a load bearing one yes, it makes things quicker and easier noting not all dynos are created equal. Even after syno tuning, you test in the road/track to confirm - Taz.