Looting WW2 Java Sea Wrecks - 'The Biggest Grave Robbery in History'
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- čas přidán 25. 10. 2021
- You can see how these wrecks were sunk in the first place in this video on the battle of the java sea: • Last Stand in the East...
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Sources:
[A]Mediacorp documentary on the salvaging: • Who’s Behind The Illeg...
[B] Footage of the wreck of Prince of Wales, by Nigel Sinclair - • HMS Prince of Wales
[C] Footage of the wreck of Repulse, by Clayton Neilson - • HMS Repulse October 2018
[1] www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia...
[2] www.theguardian.com/world/201...
[3] www.theguardian.com/world/201...
[4] www.theguardian.com/world/ng-...
[5] ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitst...
[6] www.reclamet.co.uk/scrap-meta...
[7] www.nst.com.my/news/2015/10/n...
[8] www.maritime-executive.com/ar... - Zábava
Hope you've enjoyed what was a quite experimental video for me. If you'd like to see more like it (or just more content in general), consider supporting the channel on Patreon: www.patreon.com/historigraph
I'll be honest, I enjoy your battle/campaign breakdowns the most, but this was a very interesting alternative and I'd like to see more like it in the future! Also one of my favorite videos is the commando raid on the Nazi-held Norwegian water plant, would you consider doing more of those? I think they are some of the most crucial events even though they're on such a smalls scale.
But whatever you produce, I'll watch it :)
Can you please cover the Cape Esperance Battle and more of the action in 1942, the Sunda Strait and sinking of the Exeter please, much appreciated...
For me as a viewer many questions have been answered by this video. Made clear and respectful.
It's relevant to the history you cover. It makes the tangible link between the icons to the present in a significant and unique phenomenon.
It would be beneficial if you did these kind of videos with other CZcamsrs, including Mark Felton. Two great minds working together.
what makes this even more heartwrenching is that theo wanted to attach a plaque to the wreck of de ruyter in honour of his father, only to find that the wreck was gone shortly before it was to be added
You have no idea how much this information crushed me. Truly a tragic end to his attempt to honor his father.
Totally heartbreaking hearing about such desecration!
Oh wow, some 70 years after the fact? That's real caring right there. Talk about procrastinating.
@@karstenshields1694
Yep, honouring a father who died for the freedoms that were denied to the people he was oppressing. Damn hero he was.
@@JB-yb4wn shut up kid, he was a hero, so respect him as you respect all the dead soldier from all the wars
It seems like such a minor thing, but I love that you take the time to upload actual subtitles with your videos. I sometimes watch them without audio and and it makes them so much clearer to understand. Very interesting video, great job!
Me too. Always watch the ads in full if there are subtitles
It's even more valuable for non-native english speakers like me. I can understand english just fine most of the time but having text in addition help a lot with the comprehension of what is being said in the video.
I was very sorry to hear about your old man.
Plus 1 on this. Good to read if you didn't quite catch it.
That's just stupid. 90% of the learning is from what he is speaking. Tf
HMS Exeter is completely gone. All that's left is a ship shaped indentation in the sea floor. HMAS Perth and USS Houston are in better condition, being relatively intact despite some illegal salvage being done on them.
USS Houston is in pretty good shape, but still shows signs of damage, I was reading a article the other day ( forgive me if I'm wrong ) that said HMAS Perth was 60-70 percent gone which is really depressing
My uncle Andy went down on Perth that terrible night.
Graverobbing bastards.
@@GM-fh5jp as long as the parts he was in that night wasn't robbed he has a good chance of still remaining in the seabed
Perth and Houston are the only foreign warships honored in each nations national shrines and cemetaries to war dead. Also Houston and Perth are sister cites.
Protect the HMAS Perth.a CURSE on these criminals may there boats and ships end up on the bottom.🇭🇲
As someone who served in the Royal Australian Navy many years ago, and has transited the Java Sea and other areas in that region multiple times, thank you for this insight! I had no idea this had been going on! One of the namesake Dutch ships you mentioned, HNLMS Kortenaer (F807) we operated with in Australia in 1988.
HNLMS Kortenaer took part in "Fairwind 1988" from August 1 till December 19. Suffered a fire and had to replace an engine in Stirling.
In 1994 I was part of her crew (and read up on her history).
@@DreadX10 was that HMAS Stirling in Western Australia? I don’t recall that event or seeing Kortenaer over there but I was on HMAS Stuart transiting to there in October/November 1988 after having operated with her off New South Wales(and maybe to Melbourne and Adelaide - my memory is a bit vague now)in October. It was all part of our Bicentennial Naval Salute/Bicentennial Naval Review. 60+ warships from around the world gathered in Sydney Harbour for it!
@@NoName-ds5uq Stirling is a place as far as I can tell (fire destroyed port cruise-engine and this engine was replaced in Stirling), after that they went to Fremantle, so that puts them off the coast of WA somewhere. Yes, Sydney was the next port of call on the list.
@@DreadX10 that’s probably why I didn’t know about it, it must have happened before our RV. HMAS Stirling is where Fleet Base West is situated, at Garden Island in Western Australia.
@@NoName-ds5uq Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Couldn't find 'Stirling' on the map (apart from Stirling city in Perth). Fire broke out on August 16 (they were on route from Jakarta to WA). So, yes, before the meet.
i am amazed by how historigrpah has been pumping out such quality content every 2-3 weeks with such a low number of subs and patrons
Doing my best 💪
We better get that number higher then hehe
Good quality stuff.
When your a badass it just shows
It's not that low
As someone with a history nerd, this breaks my heart. However, as an economics major, it doesn’t surprise me. Penalties for breaking the law, no matter how high, don’t mean much if the odds of getting caught are low.
I agree that there is likely low risk of being caught in the act, therefore the repercussions for those that are caught need to be severe enough to act as a greater deterrent to everyone else. I’m wondering how many of those dredgers were sunk in place when they were caught. Evacuate the crew, charge them with a crime that carries a hefty penalty then destroy/sink the very large capital investment used to commit said crimes. Loosing many millions of dollars worth of equipment on a regular basis would severely compromise the business model.
what law?
@@Larkinchance well, laws about desecrating sailors’ undersea graves in the case of this video, but the concept applies to any law with criminal or monetary penalties. The deterrent effect of breaking any law is essentially a function of 1) the penalties associated with doing so and 2) the odds of receiving such penalties for getting caught. What this effectively means is that imposing a super hefty fine for violating a law doesn’t mean much if the odds of getting caught, much less prosecuted for breaking it are either zero or statistically indistinguishable therefrom. In fact, studies that have been conducted in this vain have found that increasing the odds of getting caught provides a far better deterrent effect than simply increasing the penalties for being caught.
A better question is, Why have these remains not been repatriated and buries in a proper military cemetery? Why not pay a bounty of remains recovered, so they can be repatriated? Too cheap, uncaring, it's just easier to leave your garbage strewn all over the globe and call it a grave site?
@@WeBeGood06 probably a mixture of tradition and inability to identify the remains with individual people (assuming a desire to give each sailor a separate grave instead of putting all the remains in one large grave).
CIA: we salvaged an entire Soviet submarine from the sea floor.
Indonesian fisherman: hold my beer.
The Soviet submarine wasn’t a war grave but I don’t 100% agree it should’ve been torn apart like that but at least the remains weren’t taken from the site and buried in an unmarked grave.
The sailor's bodies still on board were buried with military honors and a video tape was presented to the Russian Govt by the US Navy.
@@GM-fh5jp woosh
That was a Cold War event, the remains were returned with the film of the respectful treatment of the dead!
Reminds me of what happened to the German ship Tripiz in Norway; There still small pieces here and there but no real indication it was there. There is old salvage dock or something that remains where the ship itself was. One bittersweet thing is you can see some craters left over from when the Brits used tall boy bombs on it even today.
the differene is Tirpiz was salvaged by the German governement and was not a war grave. In fact the is still around 10000 tons of tirpiz on the sea bed
Great topic! Definitely learned things I didn’t even suspect, keep up the great work, can’t wait to watch your next video 🙂🍀
Very well done as always. Always a great pleasure watching your videos, many have given me a great sense of pride among other emotions. The sheer detail and research is second to none, you can see the dedicated work and effort that is put into these videos.
the fact that china was finally named in something like this does not surprise me....
Funny now the Indonesian Navy basically rules the waves there.
Came to comment the same, horrible people.
@@captainhindsight8779 a culture full of greed and corruption. It's so endemic that perhaps.the most Chinese trait is corruption.
My man literally said "chinese" twice in the whole video. One of the salvage vessels mentioned was under a Chinese flag and the Chinese government commented on its activities, claiming something or another that doesn't really matter because they should still punish them whether they were contracted inside or outside of the country.
@@captainhindsight8779that’s a pretty racist comment! How a few Chinese represent the whole Chinese people?
This channel Is the one out of all my history channel subscriptions I throughly look forward to. Professional, respectful & Informative.
superb channel.
Some of the Jutland wrecks also suffered some salvaging of parts, but definitely not to the extent seen in the Java Sea.
I visited a naval museum on the island of Texel some years ago. They had some artefacts from a German ship sunk at the Battle of Jutland. The detail was it had been caught up in fishing nets. Other museums nearby have aero-engines also caught in fishing nets.
Protected war graves now.
@@leeneon854
Still recycling ships never the less. Don't know why the Danes should be giving a damn, the Brits ransack their Viking graves all over the UK.
@@JB-yb4wn you know i had enough of you, stop being a whiny prick about the past, because you might as well be angry against someone stepping on some other guys foot, every country you see today had moved on from their barbaric past no country had held a grudge against their former colonizers since they LEFT! why be angry at something that had already past! sure they did bad things but you act as if since country A attacked country B, they should hold grudges even though it happened decades to centuries ago, and by your logic we should destroy the d day memorial since america and france had a war that one time, we should throw all those graves of fallen american soldiers like how we did with the shipwrecks in the java sea, open your mind!
@@charlestonianbuilder344 I forgot that if something happened in the past that immediately removes all responsibility and means no one can get prosecuted, that's how the law works after all.
I'm from Indonesia and i live near Merak Port City (also Sunda Strait) and near that 2 Dots where you pointing the wreck location of USS Houston and HMAS Perth there. i already know the wreck was there and i know all Allied Warships wreck location in Indonesian Waters. but i deeply feel very sad and anger at the same time that what i don't like is HMS Exeter was completely gone inside the bottom of the ocean and HMS Exeter was my like favorites warship story cause i like her story of her battle against Menacing KMS Admiral Graf Spee in River Plate. But this makes me feel sad that Grave of the young men and old men died with the ship in the bottom of the ocean like disappear and no remains left. it's not about you hate colonial powers about removing this warships, it's about you respect to these sailors who died in action and Permission about salvaging towards the nations who sailed this ships. also, i deeply shocked and sad that for Theo Doorman. i didn't know who is Theo Doorman at all and i didn't know he was visit Indonesia just want to see his father grave and his father ship. I want to say to Theo Doorman that "I'm sorry about my country and these illegal salvagers and i deeply feel sad to you and your fathers remain in the Java sea was gone, i cannot say more words anything to forgive but that ship...last sailed and fight was in Java Sea and also in that point in the video". Hope you all have a good day and kindly sorry about my words and english and stuff. Battle of the Java Sea was my favorite history ww2 battle that happened in my country waters.
And thank you to Historigraph for making this video and battles in Indonesia WW2, i always wanted some people need to know and aware about this topic, love your channel Historigraph and i love every videos you made. (i know about this salvaging allied warships thing a year ago).
why do you care though? These nations have raped enough resources from natives of these countries the supposed stealing doesn't even make up for a hundredth. they should pay the salvagers for cleaning up their mess from the sea. and pay for the stuff they stole while leaching off the fruits of labour of the Malay, Indonesian and other peoples.
@@JonaRosalinaRose Those ships are GRAVES for men who gave their lives for their country. To suggest a man born in 1923 is to blame for the pillaging of Natives is laughable. You should be ashamed of yourself for ever suggesting that we shouldn’t care about those brave men who gave the ultimate sacrifice.
No need to apologise for poor English when your words are so respectful and considered
@@JonaRosalinaRose Imagine if you were ones of those men fighting on those ships how do you think you would feel if you knew that a ship you served on and died on was being salved for scrap metal how would you feel knowing that you can't do anything to stop it as your remains are picked up from the ocean floor and put onto a barge and shipped to somewhere only to have your remains thrown into some pit to never been seen again think for a second before you go around complaining oh who cares about some ships that sunk in ww2 ok
don't blame yourself you have nothing to do with this you have respect for these ships and those men who served on them don't blame yourself blame those people who have no respect for others or grave sites
Great video and an important one! Probably would not have heard of this situation without it. Keep up the amazing work! Love your videos especially the naval ones! : )
As someone from Indonesia, im honestly quite sorry for the incompentent goverment, disrespect from our countrymen. They are too busy of filling their stomachs to care other things like history and respecting people's grave.
why we must care for colonizer warships?
I do understand the attitude towards the colonialist powers that still lingers there after years of “education” at school in our history. I do understand that there is still pain from that era.
However, as we are approaching hundred years of independence and being part of the 21st Century, we Indonesians need to move forward to become world citizens. This includes being respectful of wrecks and burials, even of those historical figures.
@@abdurrahmanfaiz1981 Why we should care about you ? It's all about the sailors that died there, not the metal
@@michaelhusada2276 wrecks and burials from imperialists
@@abdurrahmanfaiz1981 Perhaps you would be better off speaking Japanese.
I think of the tons of explosives and large caliber shells on board these ships that could make this type of operation dicey.
These scavengers deserve to get f*cked anyway, who cares about them
If you can or willing to translate some old news from this part of south east asia, you will find some casualty usually once every few year because of some people trying to cut old munision or sea mine.
@@Eire_Aontaithe those who do get old ammo exploded in their face, usually uneducated, in dire need of money and don't know the full extend where their scrap came from.
It's the boss, who don't care whether or not it exploded in his man face. They are practically untouchable. But today it's very rare to find news about explosion in scraping facility, because they are getting smarter, to not picking up ammo or sea mines. But you can still find news about explosion if you can use g-translate in indonesian, about few years back, from either german or dutch ship
@@altoclan21 People that dont have to worry about eating 3 times a day quickly lose touch with the reality of extreme poverty.
@@andrewbrown6522 poor people have millions of dollars worth of salvage equipment. Not. Rich bastards with government connections employing poor people to do the dirty work. Wreck missing no foreign aid. Eos
My first watch. I subscribed right away
And I am enlightened!
I had no idea.
Good Job👏👏
A remarkable video and a most surprising subject!
Never knew about this, thanks for bringing it to light
Amazing quality videos, big fan of your work, 10/10
Can you please cover the Cape Esperance Battle and more of the action in 1942, the Sunda Strait and sinking of the Exeter please, much appreciated...
Outrageous indeed, thanks for covering!
Cheers🇳🇱
My grandfather travelled to Singapore and Java in the 80's and he was surprised at how many trinkets and items from WW2 ships and weapons were being sold as tourist souvenirs, even close to Singapore which is a British naval base. So I imagine that more than one British sailor of officer took some WW2 souvenir home without reporting the issue.
So sadly this wasn't a thing from the 90's onwards or just for pre atomic steel (that ironically enough is bought by companies from the same countries denouncing the grave robbery). Once the small trinkets and things of value were gone, the next logical step was to start with the metal and heavier objects
turns out there isn't even a point to it anymore, they can make new steel so that it isn't irradiated, would be cheaper than pulling out a massive wreck, but likely they didn't initially realise that it had vallue as pre atomic steel, they probably just sold it for scrap metal
As an Indonesian, I never knew about this. Glad that I watch this video.
Kelakuan orang Madura gan.
Lha, ratusan tank sherman ex ABRI bangkainya pada kemana? Kadang kan muncul berita orang mati karena nyoba motong munisi ex perang dunia 2, clue itu!
Ini baru kapal ex kolonial, lha kalo kapal penumpang yang dulu kevelakaan dan makan korban? Gimana kabarnya? Masih ada ngga? Gua ga yakin masih utuh......
@@SetuwoKecik wadaw, Madura deket Surabaya njir
Jgn rasis gan
@Steve Wolcott dude, it's kind of unfair, like disrespecting your dead soldier because of joe brandon or certain geoup of people.
The one stealing those ship are steel mafia, well connected one at that. The average Indonesian have no clue, or the one knowing is afraid confronting those people. They are willing to expand this issue to became race/religion thing. A volatile topic in this side of the earth.
Heck i willing to bet the other ship the local navy / transport ship lost in sea may not in the condition they sunk. A.k.a illegally salvaged.
The ingenuity of greedy men knows no bounds
Yes, no country should rule another body of human beings into 'colonies' and exploit their resources.
Unlike what the wolf of wall street tell you greed is evil it only good when you only care nothing but yourself and pay no care of the harem you do
Yes, greedy colonizer
Oh, for sure. Like how the Indonesians were made to grow cloves instead of food for their own family, so they could suffer hunger instead of being punished by the Dutch for missing their quotas. You're damn right that's ingenious.
@@rusticbox9908 What has that got to do with war graves being ruined?
Thank you for shedding light on this subject.
Wow this is crazy and sad, but this problem needs to be known. Thank you for bringing it to light.
Great video on a subject that should get more attention
Wow, another masterpiece from Historigraph. Love ya mate!
Great Video. Thanks for Sharing .
Great Video. Thank you
There must be so many ships scattered on the sea beds of the world
pirate hunting in the caribbean and the med, numerous euro wars and slave trade abolishment.
Some are okay to salvage, some aren't. It's very arbitrary.
Dw German tv in English had a documentary recently about the time bomb of so many sunk ships from world war two leaking oil into the oceans that is considered a growing global ecological disaster. It concluded on the urgency to pump those oil tanks out now before they rupture completely.
@@CA999 Theirs also a few subs with both nuclear reactors and warheads that are still down there to be concerned about
Not just that, there's also containers that got thrown overboard during storms, this stuff happens all the time and we rarely hear about it because it's so common but they litter the seafloor.
Your channel is amazing. Really hoping that you can get viral and get those subs coming. Keep with this awesome work.
Really enjoy your channel also, and your work is appreciated.
Liked and subscribed. Well done.
Really really great content, happy to have subscribed to u
Thanks :)
Utterly disgusting. How would these grave robbers feel if their relative's bodies were dug up and removed.
@Dimitar They are just plain ignorant. If those men hadnt fought n died they would be part of a Japanese Empire.
@@geoffburrill9850 Bro I'm pretty sure being under ANY colonial power is not a good thing, Japanese or Dutch. Look at the Indonesian war of independence, just right after WW2 the Dutch committed so much warcrimes.
Scum like that would dig up and sell their own parents.
@@Maple_Cadian What when did I defend the Japanese empire? Nor did I deny the atrocities they committed in China or SEA. I'm just pointing out how these colonial soldiers are not the reason why Indonesia or any SEA nation was independent... My people fought for our independence, we fought the Spanish, the Americans, and the Japanese just to attain freedom. And I wont be told that the only reason we are free is that some colonial soldiers defended their colony in Asia.
That's why I put "ANY colonial power is not a good thing" get a better reading comprehension.
@@Maple_Cadian nah, both white and yellow are being targeted, the difference is later after our independence Japan want to be friend while Dutch still in colonial fantasy.
I just heard about pre atomic steel in a scott Manley video. Apparently with the end of atmospheric atomic tests in the 60's, we can now make those instruments with new steel
Yes the atmospheric effect has certainly declined with the end of nuclear tests- but I thought I would mention it in this video nonetheless as its something that came up in a lot of the literature
I think you are correct but the steel in those warships doesn't require much to prepare it for sale, as opposed to mining and refining new iron ore, making it vastly cheaper/more profitable.
@@historigraph There are thousands of tons of pre-atomic steel sitting on the bottom of Scapa Flow in Scotland. That's been more than enough to meet the existing demand, because they regularly salvage it.
Thanks for bringing this problem back into the public eye! It reminds us of those who lost their lives at sea!
SONAR indeed, great video as always
An interesting side story to go along with your WW2 campaign videos.
Where there is profit, people will do almost anything for money. Sadly this is the way of the world.
This is the way of capitalism. When wealth legitimizes people, criminals become wealthy and legitimate. And run the world
Great video about a really sad story. Thank you! 🙏🏻
'Pre-atomic steel' can be made today and doesn't cost much more than 'non-atomic steel' making.
You handled the subject well and fairly.
A message to the salvagers/scavangers/grave diggers -
May the ghosts of proud sailors lost, visit upon you.
I'll take thehost too. Ghost threats are the weakest of threats.
@@tipperzack
Wooo scary. Wish they would come, make far more money in haunted wrecks.
@@tipperzack you make jokes but I watched a documentary about these pirates that didnt take a sea curse seriously and they ended up as undead husks roaming the seas until the treasure they stole was returned
@@BlastinRope yes, Disney makes some great stuff.
@@JB-yb4wn
May your disrespect for the dead be revisited upon you a thousand fold.
This is something I've always felt strongly about, but it doesn't get as much attention as it deserves. Thanks for making this video, top quality as always.
How do you feel about housing estates and subdivisions built on top of battlefields where pieces of soldiers lie still?
Love the new intro very awesome
Western divers also looted these ships. Some of them are in Bali. The locals stole metals they can sold. Western divers stole personal stuff from dead sailors. Even the bell of the ships.
The desecration of war graves is wrong, please do not forget that the British Goverment sold the sunken WW1 and WW2 merchant ships who were also war graves to salvors. The ships were often torn apart and the steel "recovered" without any respect to there crews.
There crews? Where crews? It's "their", genius.
@ What is whataboutism? cannot find it in the dicktionary?
@@slappy8941 so clever, you and your 2nd grade English skilz.
You see the difference is that in this situation the British were able to profit off the salvage themselves but here it was in the territories of another country so they can't profit of it so instead they're just gonna sit back and act like they have the moral high ground.
@@hedgehog3180 Were you born ignorant or did you need to study to be ignorant?
Great video. Any idea how the grave robbers dealt with UXO, seems like it would be an extremely dangerous undertaking
They will probably just dump it at sea in some undisclosed location. So it will potentially be a hazard to shipping in the future. Some deaths have possibly occured during the salvage operations but these won't be reported, just as the salvage ops themselves weren't.
What is UXO .
@@leerubybritvic1990 unexploded ordnance. Shells, bombs, that sort of stuff.
Its something 99.9999% of people would never even think about this problem. Thank you for this video.
Really interesting video.
How old do the wrecks have to be to no longer be "war graves"? 100s must have died on the Mary Rose.
I don't belive there is a time when they stop being war graves
The difference is that the remains found on the Mary Rose were given the respect that they deserved. They were all cataloged in situ, their bones kept together as the individual, and they have been used for historic research.
Rather than blown and smashed to bits by scavenging pirates.
They pretty much stop becoming navel war graves when the opposition to leaving them alone falls silent (take the Titanic for instance) as there are few wrecks raised/washed up for research and display purposes, where as disturbing most wrecks without permission and authorization would invoke retribution from both the nation and their navel, marine corp branches as well as the family's that lost loved ones in them.
@@windowsux
Yes I can imagine that these nations would be showing their belly buttons in disapproval to these ships being recycled.
A navel is a belly button, naval refers to military ships. Spell check much?
It's more that legally a sunken warship remains the property of the country it served for eternity, or until that country ceases to exist if there are no successor states. There isn't really an international legal category for "war grave" so whether or not a ship is one is usually just decided by the owner country themselves, who often do have a legally designated "war grave" category. Now in those circumstances it still isn't necessarily illegal to salvage the wreck as you can obtain permission for it but usually you're only allowed to salvage especially valuable parts of it and here international salvage law would also kick in and determine that the owner country has the right to a certain share of the profits, and if the salvage happened in the territorial waters of another country they usually also have a right to some of it.
So when it comes to when something isn't a "war grave" anymore the answer is really whenever it stops mattering to the owner country, which basically just depends on how important it is to people there or the government. You can see this here, the Dutch were the most offended as this was really the only theater where the Dutch navy really participated in force and so it's a major part of Dutch narratives about WWII, Brits and Americans cared a lot less as to them this was just one minor part of the whole war. And of course given that these were wrecks from WWII they're gonna stay important to people long into the future because WWII is so important in general. However if we go back a few hundred years and look at less intense and less important conflicts like the struggles between colonial powers in the Caribbean no one really cares anymore and there are constantly people trying to salvage the wrecks of treasure fleets.
Oh that's it, they have crossed the line!
Fantastic video of a hidden subject i have seen the same at many ww2 plane crashes looting has disapeared all the remains of these places which are almost always grave sites for the crews
This is fascinating.
This is disgraceful, thank you for the great videos.
As a Dutch man, I can say that Doorman is considered a hero. Thank you for this video...
Really? And what did Doorman do? Stupidly die for the right of the Netherlands to deny the basic freedoms in Indonesia that his own country had? What a hero! Dying for money! If the VOC was around, they would have given him a bloody medal. You guys learned absolutely nothing from the German occupation and wanted to continue your occupation of Indonesia after the war. It galls me to think that so many Canadians died to liberate your country.
@@JB-yb4wn To put things into perspective (about the freedom fight in Indonesia) and that not countries but people in charge and in power commit atrocities....en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366
@@reinoutburgers4225
No argument here. In fact I was just pointing out that if anyone, the Dutch should have been sympathetic to the independence of their former colony as they were themselves victims of the Nazi occupation of their own country.
They didn't learn a damn thing and were surprised that the Indonesians didn't want to be oppressed anymore.
@@reinoutburgers4225 atrocities? What about colonialism?
@@141Travish Although I support any form of anti-racism or discrimination I am far from BLM or feel any guild or blame for anything that Europeans have done in the past. So using the colonialism card has little value to me. That said, the effects of colonialism are still apparent nowadays.....
dit is nieuws voor mij, erg interessant
Well done!
One day in the early 1980s my ship, the USS Eisenhower, launched a small cargo plane, full of people, off of Crete. The plane crashed. When they found the wreckage, the sailors had all been laid out on a hillside and stripped naked. You learn a lot about people in the military.
Waste of meat?
The cretans also destroyed the war grave of the 4000 german paratroopers killed and buried on crete in 1941.....well, at least now you know why theyre called cretans!
@@HarborLockRoad why morn dead Nazis? Based Cretans.
We lived in Indonesia from 1968-1971. We had a boat and used to go out the islands one being Putri. There was a New Zealander there that told us of a shipwreck close by from ww2 that was rumored to have gold on board and that a lot of divers had drowned trying to get it. The currents there were pretty bad as was sharks at that time
Subbed soon as I heard that soothing voice
Wow, incredible video.. Very unfortunate though story
I first came across this from the CNA documentary as mentioned in your video. It shouldn't be too difficult to trace who ultimately buys up this metal? Without a market for this, nobody would loot these wrecks. Used to love doing wreck dives around Northern part of Borneo, I wonder if those wrecks are still intact?
China. Well known fact.
How would you trace that? A core component of our financial system is almost complete anonymity.
I remember seeing a documentary on the Lusitania which showed the salvaging of the ships screws.
And now a question. When does a war grave become an archeological site?
That is the most intelligent question here. Obviously they weren't meant to be perpetual. 🙄
A "war grave" or "a protected place" (which may apply to sunken ships or aircraft wrecks where there were assumed to be unrecovered human remains) is basically a legal creation which is, among other matters, likely to define the conditions under which such sites can be investigated. This legislation to protect places as war graves (for common soldiers rather than just the people in charge) is relatively recent, starting with the American Civil War and becoming sidespread at the end of WW1. In practical terms the protected status of a war grave will probably lapse when there is no longer any continuity with the governing authority that created it.That's bad news for losers unless the winners are prepared to be decent about it.
The diference is not one of time. Is one of respect. Actual archeological expeditions have been investigating things as recent as WWII since _literal decades_ ago, and war graves are still being respected after _centuries._
An archeological expedition that finds a tomb full of "mummies and gold", to quote a Peruvian idiom, isn't after the gold but after the information. They would document their findings, treat the bodies with respect, and any item taken as historical artifact (be it a broken ceramic vase or a shinny gold crown) would be so due to the information it provides, not due to its value in base precious metals, if any. The claim of tomb robbers that "but the valuable stuff we found winds up in the museus anyway" is bogus because the information they could have provided is lost and the bodies are treated as trash.
SImilarly, an archeological expedition to a war grave would be after, say, documenting the exact way the ship was sunk, not after "recovering" random trinkets to sell them on the market. You can read of a very much publicited similar case here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuestra_Se%C3%B1ora_de_las_Mercedes where a "recovery" firm gutted a Napoleonic-age Spanish war grave with dynamite to steal gold coins and tried to sell them as if they had a different origin. Compare with what the follow-up actual archeological expedition to the same wreck in 2017, which recovered a couple of cannons and used their engravings to track the origin of their smelter- instead, say, of melting them down for valuable metal or selling them as "pirate cannons" in ebay for a pretty penny.
TL;DR: If I were a sailor's ghost I wouldn't object my bones being found by an archeologist even in a day but I would be angry at a robber even after centuries.
@@IntrospectorGeneral That or the location ceases to have a cultural importance to the government and the potentially value of the salvage encourages them to lift the war grave status.
archeology is ethical because what is found and the place where it is found are respected
here they blow up the final resting places of thousands of soldiers "gesneuvelden" I find that word to be more powerfull than any English meaning I can give to it
West-Flanders was a battlefield as well during ww1, bombs and shells are still found constantly, every farmer in the area has a cage in which he or she must store any that he found and sometimes one explodes under a tractor or the like
we also find remains of soldiers, often unidentified and without hope of ever being identified, but even so they are recorded on the menin gate, and every day at 8 pm the last post is held, once for every name on that gate, we wil have to continue this for the next 400 or so years,
that is the regard by which we hold our death, sure we are happy to find and display any equipment we can find and find interesting, and much of what is found by locals does end up on the market, but even so it is usually treated with reverence, it is the only reason for buying it today,
Jammer Theo Doorman. Dit is baie jammer. Thx Historigraph. It is sad, but what will u think will happend? The ships/ graves belong to the "enemy". Why must it be protected? It is like GOLD...
I was not at all aware of this. Never knew that precontamination steel was so important.
Low background steel has been a small but lucrative industry for decades. The remains of the German High Seas Fleet that was deliberately scuttled in Scapa Flow after WW1 was a primary source for a long time (Which isn't a wargrave).
However the need for it has been lessening more recently. We're now over 50 years from open-air nuclear weapons testing and the radioactive contamination of Earth's atmosphere has fallen to a level not that far above the natural background. However, for the most sensitive of scientific instruments in labs around the world, high quality pre-WWII steel will still fetch a good price.
Frustratingly, those doing the illegal salvaging of these wrecks don't even have that specialist purpose in mind. Most of the time they're just flogging it at market prices like any old metal junk.
it tears my heart apart thinking about the families learning that their grandparent's grave has been ransacked
Sorry but I think you are too sentimental. Sailors are used to "bury" dead friends in the sea for centuries. The sea itself is a grave.
@@user-yt198 yes you're very edgy and very cool, thank you. You have now convinced me people shouldn't be heartbroken that their grandfathers have been defiled and disposed of like trash.
Sons? I think you mean Grandparents.
@@Marinealver oh yeah sorry
@@antoncid5044 I don't think any remains of the bodies are left after 70 years.
the bad thing is, all the toxic fluids that get released when those thiefs steal the wrecks
well made video
Very interesting
as a retired sailor i/ve seen the 4 or 6 inch alloy steel armoring the USN used. that, plus the artillery, these hulls must have been a treasure trove. i wonder how Iron Bottom Sound has fared.
Aside from the wrecks that were practically beached, pretty well all things considered from what I’ve seen. Most of those wrecks are too deep to dive on without submersibles. Laffey for instance sits at about half a mile below the surface. The deepest that can be dived on is the remains of the Atlanta, and she’s pushing it at around 400 feet. There are exceptions to that like the Aaron Ward, which lies in about 30-ish meters of water, but she’s become more of a dive tourist attraction.
As a Dutch dude, this makes me angry, very angry.....
As an Indonesian, the Dutch shouldn't come to our land in the first place
@@141Travish You are 100% right mate!
Lol😂
truly devious lick
Good, nice to see people cleaning up the ocean.
Great work.
HMAS Perth, I believe is now almost completely gone with over 80% been illegally taken. USS Houston is apparently in much better condition, for now.
A friend's father has part of the funnel housing from HMS Exeter. He "souvenired" it when it was being repaired after the Battle with the Graf Spee. It even had a chunk of lead in it from one of the Graf Spee's shells, but it became detached and his wife threw it out as rubbish. Almost divorce time!
Almost,? She had better be a former beauty queen and nymphomaniac and he father owns a liquor store or she would be down the road looking for a new man.
@@oldschoolamerican748 Sadly, she is none of the above.
Graf Spee was scuttled honorably by the german navy , unlike exeter who sank under cowardly situation
@@lufasumafalu5069 Graf Spee was scuttled because battle damage made it impossible to get back to Germany. HMS Exeter went down fighting three Japanese cruisers. Now be a good boy and go away and eat some taro and corned beef.
@@shanemcdowall exeter sank when it flee the battle , totally cowardly act
Great video. So sad.
To me, everything points to Communist China.
For centuries people bought teeth from dentures knowing full well where they came from. They bought fertilizer after wars knowing what was the source. I'm not on the side of the scrappers, but it's disingenuous to think this wasn't going to happen, let alone with nations that have unhappy memories of the nations who own these ships and why they were there
Way to miss the point....
@@aussiemilitant4486 no, I got the point. You're missing that different cultures don't have the same beliefs as you, let alone toward those commonly seen as villains
@@aussiemilitant4486 Go look up the Indonesian War of Independence or the numerous atrocities committed in the name of Dutch imperialism to understand the viewpoint and disinterest of the Indonesian Government. I'm not saying there right but I do understand their point.
@@leogazebo5290 this is true. But as an Indonesian, I still find these reasons unjustifiable. The only way for us to know how bad collonialism was in the long run is from these physical wrecks. These items will be the living monument for us not to do these horrible things to other human being. We do learn this part of history extensively from our schools and yet, some of us still justified scavalging these items as part of revenge? That conflicting ideas, just doesn't cut it for me. These actions are based on greed and hatred, which is the exact same reason of collonialism.
@@MASB29 Indeed bro, history is never black and white especially 20th-century history. I just hope that people will not judge things in the simple shade of color and wide strokes in such a complex issue.
Wow😵 even i really mesmerised by the skill the robber steal the wreck.the ship just disappear.
The bad part about salvaging these ship's, is that many of them still contain thousands of gallons of diesel fuel and oil, that if it were let out, would cause many disasters. Crazy times we are in, God bless.
put sonar buoys down around the ships, when the grave robbers show up, seize the ship, scrap it, take proceeds to fund additional actions against them.
the pre-war and post-war steel/metal blew my mind... very strange stuff
This was a excellent video. As a Young (confused) Man I worked on a boat, don't think you can call a tug a ship?. Anyway it's a bit of history! Never thought of searching history for which one it was. It was called the Northern Retriever. 196' ocean tug built by the Maritime administration. To pull into Port distressed ship's globally including carrier's in 42/43? 1 of 4 to my knowledge. Amazing 6 Deck ,gun Mount 21 ft. Draft 14' prop with nozzle cone...A Brute! Two straight eight's you could put your shoulders through the bores of the Pistons 😀 pushrods the size of elephant leg's. And The biggest supercharger feeding them I.... I couldn't imagine a blower 4 feet long and 3high and wide. Feeding static drive single...wow... In the day we were hoping to take it to Seattle for the tug races....take on the Foss... Anyway the goal was to go to Australia and area to salvage and live Free and daily...
Sure Glad I didn't pick that option the idea failed and as far as I know the boat is history.... Take care all !!
The Indonesians response is absolutely correct, why should they spend their resources guarding previous aggressors towards their ancestors who died protecting their own interests and not Indonesians? The British should've brought these sailors home and gave them burial with full honours. It was an economic decision not to.
Ah, yes… those horrible, terrible, awful Australian, British, Dutch & American sailors who were attempting to protect the Indonesians, the Australians, (& their own interests of course) from the Japanese who were busy conquering everything.
I don’t suppose your studies and knowledge can reach so far as to recall the rape of Nanking? The Battan death march? It wasn’t just white Colonials being brutalized and dying in droves.
Indeed, how dare those white imperialist capitalist sacrifice themselves against a superior foe!
@@HM2SGT The Japanese attacked China in 1931.... The British ships were sent there in 1942. I don't think they were there to protect China or Asians but her far east colonies especially India and Australia sending critical supply shipments to Britain during the Nazi blockade.
@ check dutch actions afterwards. The dutch weren't there to protect Indonesians. They were there to protect their financial investments in Indonesia. To live under Dutch or Japanese rule wouldve been just as horrible.
@ Different places. Different people.
@ Right, exactly. So the point is why should Indonesians care about the war graves of Dutch sailors? Because they were a little less brutal than the Japanese? That's not a positive reason care. And its not like the Dutch were unwilling to be just as inhumane as the Japanese. No, they demonstrated that in the centuries of domination beforehand. No they were just hampered by the fact that their country was devastated by WW2 and couldnt muster the full resources required to crush the Indonesian Independence Movement. So again to get to the point. There's really no reason for Indonesians to care about protecting these shipwrecks. What's one colonial power vs another.
I haven't watched all of your videos but only just noticed I wasn't subscribed. I changed that today.
Could you please explain me why is it such a problem for the salvaging to happen?
It's not just about the ship and the History,It's also about the brave men and women who served their country.
Serve their country while killing native indonesian
@@roxaskaragi879 so its fine if you speak japanese then while japanese infantry doing atrocious war crimes to civilians?
@@roxaskaragi879 and how is that justify looting and destroying a piece of History? should we erased Majapahit legacy and trace because they conquer lands around them? should we destroy roman building because they used captured Slaves?
@Steve Wolcott typical hypocrisy,It's fine as long It's not me or my own group
Local Veterans park near us had a huge ships propeller set up in a memorial. S Thief using an electric Sawzall and a long extension cord plugged into the VFW building on site was steadily sawing off parts of the Propeller and selling it at the local scarp yard, which is what got him caught.
He had taken a large part of one blade before being caught.
The Tank near the road also had an attempt to saw off parts.
These people have no shame and just don't care.
It was a grave all these shipwrecks. But let's hope that people still have personal
will put things in a war museum so that this memory is not completely erased.
What did they do with the bodies and body parts they found?
another prespective here from indonesian, i dont remember there was a big topic about salvaging an old warship here in our local news. if i have to say, im sure not many indonesia will care if somepeople salvaging an old colonial warship. first, we dont even know a history about WWI or WWII, if i found a wrecked ship in the ocean floor, i will just take a selfie and leave it with no care about that ship. war of the java sea is war between allied vs japan. what we studied in our school is our own (direct) indonesian history, and sure that alone was a pretty long history. second, all that ship WAS the enemy ship, indonesian peole just watch from the beach while being a dutch slave atm. we dont really hold a grudge to dutch or japanese now, but surely you dont like to talk about 3.5 century of pain right? million of dead, a war between gun vs spear. for information too, we indonesian gained our independence not from peaceful way, we need to defend our land again for 1 decade after we the independence proclaimed, defend means dead and lose streak oc. when dutch send their troops again, we can only fight on land with a left behind japanese gun, its a massacre, no anti aircraft, no ship, no artillery. so the colonialism didnt end with a good impression.
indonesia is not a rich country, our military forces are not even in a minimum, how can we watch our sea in the size of entire europe all the time? indonesian gov are hardly care about our own historical site. no need to talk about finding the grave of the lost troops, many of our old veterans are life in a poor condition! yess thats how bad indonesian if you talk about respecting the history. you can find poorly maintaned veteran grave outside big city. now if we cant preserve our own soldier grave on the land, how can you told us to preserve our ex enemy?
my point is we indonesian dont really care about all that thing because many factor, sorry we have another priority for now like getting back our own looted treasure from the invaders. and we dont have a resources or power to preserve the warship. i suggest that the origin country of the ship to send their own people to preserve the graveyard if truly care.
dissclaimer: its just my opinion about the topic and i think mostly but not all indonesian have a same opinion like me, im here just to explain to people who wonder why its happened. i dont think we need to argue about this topic too long, if country want to preserve just take an action, alone we cant do much. and lastly sorry for very bad english, i got C on it....
100% agreed. It seems very hypocritical for Western nations to be angry about these lootings, considering the centuries long reigns of colonization
I see, that's very interesting! I'm guessing Indonesia also wouldn't care if KRI Nanggala or KRI Matjan Tutul were to be *illegally scrapped* then?
What a strong mindset! profit from the dead for the benefit of the people. Indonesia are very strong I see.
@@90enemies You ever notice how those ships were Indonesian ships in Indonesian waters? Its almost like you didn't read the first comment
@@prize9550 "Indonesian Waters" is that before or after they Invaded Papua?
@@90enemies i can see that you accused indonesian people for scrapped the warship, have you even watch the video fully? have you read my comment? have you found any statement that indonesian people are the one who scrapped it? what i said before is indonesian have a low awareness about the existing colonial ship wrecks not the one who did, and i clearly said that we dont have enough power and resources to guard or lift the wreck. we cant even lift KRI Nanggala and many other indonesian ship.
yess i know that indonesian have a high crime level, but mostly a small group of people. i have watch the video about indonesian fishermen scrapping a ship, but all of them are just swim and dive manually without proper diving equipment, they just scrapped the small piece they can carry with hand, no bomb, no big crane. manually scrapping a ship that way will need years to finish, now how can you scrapped a 7500 tons of steel with 150+mm thick armor with just a hand and a small boat? did you see a big crane ship in the video? you hear that its from china right? just do what i said, bring your own recovery ship here and safe that wreck if you really care.
oh its out of topic you bring here but what you mean "invaded papua" was a war between indonesia vs dutch, not indonesian vs papuan. KRI Matjan Tutul sunk by dutch navy not west papuan navy. After the independece, indonesian determined to expel the dutch from all east indies and west papua was still colonized by the dutch at that time. indonesia itself is a unity of former east indies include west papua, no one left behind for the independence. yes im aware theres some or many crimes against humanity happens there, and many government policy that hurt papuan people, me and most indonesian people are against it too. oh and do you know whats the biggest trigger on west papua problem nowadays? its a freeport gold mine.... guess who the mastermind.
since 2000 we start to aware about the problem on west papua and now many people are on the move to make papuan people satisfy for being indonesian, but we need time, once again we are not rich country, we struggle mostly on budget, and thats because that ship that bring the dutch to invade us on past.
I guess my feeling is if the people there had the materials in the motivation to salvage those ships, I don't see the problem with them salvaging it. It's a huge waste of materials just to leave all that stuff laying on the bottom of the ocean. Yeah guys died on the ship but people died all over Europe during the two World Wars. If you declared all the places where bodies ended up sacred nobody could build or do anything.
@Sp8kyMuhG8ky most families of the sailors didn't even fund any conservation efforts
Grave robbing how sick
what's worst is that people are defending these action and even claiming that these ships are not "graves" but just "wrecks".
For what ever side of what ever war these sailors were fighting for. May they all Rest In Peace and may the families of the sailors on the vessels that have been disturbed find peace. Thank you for their ultimate sacrifice.
Yes, with special thanks to the Japanese sailors who would outright murder downed US and Commonwealth airmen by attaching them to heavy objects and throwing them overboard. And a special mention to the Japanese sub captains who gleefully obeyed orders from high command to kill everyone they found after torpedoing a ship. Their sacrifice of others will never be forgotten.
You don't read much history, do you, Sam?
@@JB-yb4wnwatch a Indonesian blame the Dutch. Pisses me off. “Our country bad cuz of Dutch.” No. Like no. Indonesia sucks Timor better.
@@space4166
No Indonesia bad now because of Indonesians. Indonesia bad back then because of Dutch.
Thank good the USS Johnston is 21,180 feet deep. It’ll never be touched by looters.
It’s remains there for only the ocean to know and protect.
This is some crazy Bond villain shit
High probability that the Chicoms has a hand in this.