Debate: Is Labour Unelectable?
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- čas přidán 19. 01. 2022
- What will it take for Labour to win again in Britain? Can the party capture the nation’s support again? Will previously loyal voters lost to the Brexit referendum return? Or has the party been redefined by identity politics, ignoring who they used to represent - older, working-class people, who live in small towns and industrial heartlands
Filmed in October 2021
For the motion: Matthew Goodwin and Ella Whelan
Against the motion: Jess Phillips and Anand Menon
Chaired by: Lewis Goodall
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Do you think Labour can surge again?
No. Keir isn't charming enough.
Like a worm up a mountain 😂
Obviously yes. Perhaps this debate is an example of the obtuseness of a professional political so-called scientists.
@@paulmcgrory5165 Yawn. Who's got time for nuance in 2022? Just pick an extreme position and stick to it.
@@jamescollingwood3653 Anti-Centrist Aktion
The problem with Labour is that they seem to think they’re entitled to win for simply being ‘right’, and then every time they lose it’s apparently everyone else’s fault.
"then every time they lose it’s apparently everyone else’s fault." I think you will find that that is the default position of every party when it loses.
@@garethgriffiths1674 not to the extent that it exists on the Labour side - I’ve never heard Tory voters ever claim they lost an election because the electorate are ‘evil’, which I’ve heard numerous Labour voters claim over the years ie they are morally pure, everyone else is bad.
@@ReaderMeetAuthor Your reply is just too wierd!
@@garethgriffiths1674 just a bizarre reality
Jess Philips really doesn't have a clue about how low the Labour party has fallen.
Jess Philips doesn't have a clue about much except Jess Philips. She's right though, we no longer have any expectations of any of them least of all her
I don't need MP's with Philips outlook and attitude to remind me why I will never vote labour again, but it helps!
The middle class destroyed Labour.
Jess Phillips is your typical drunken one nite stand. So she isn't nothing more than that really. No ideas, no plans no sense.
At 54:33 Jess Phillips introduces identity politics: "Are there any women at Kings?" Completely irrelevant to the situation, and indicative of Labour MP's ability to view every interaction through the divisive lens of race, gender and sexuality.
I noticed that. It's literally those comments that alienate the working class from the current labourer party
Boys from white working class backgrounds make up less then 5% of intake in over 50% of universities in England- --and this is the crap that Jess Phillips spouts.
Mostly career politicians.
Jess Phillip’s should have been prepared. A terrible performance.
Hopeless.
Jess thinks men can be women and it's ok to house male sexual offenders in womens prisons.
The irony that Jess Philips was supposed to be arguing for the motion that the labour party is electable,but was actually the best argument that labour is completely unelectable!
Things could rapidly change if they change leader.
@@VincentRE79 The whole approach need to change
@@blackniall8509 I am not sure if they can while they still have a number of Hard Left MP's in the party, they won't let them change.
@vedder82 Just think she is on a salary of £80,000 plus per year plus expenses and turns in a performance like this.
People like Jess Phillips is why labour are unelectable.
I loathe Labour even more than the Tories, and that's saying something.
Matthew Goodwin was by far the best speaker in this debate.
He nailed it when he stated the three reasons why Labour aren't electable are
- Electoral politics
- Ideological reasons
- Woke agenda
Labour don't know how to hold onto their current voters or just as importantly attract the marginal voters in key constituencies.
Yeah he missed out the part where Blair Brown and Starmer decided that Muslim block votes meant more to them than the industrial scale abuse and defilement of the white working class northern children of their own lifelong supporters at the hands of mainly Pakistani gangs and conspired to ignore and actively cover up the crime then blame it on "lifestyle choices" . ..🤔 I'm no expert but I would think that might have something to do with it?
@@davidatkinson5858 ah yes. that's why Boris got your vote with his anti Islamic statements about Burkas..
@@sherlockgnomes8971 so speaks somebody who has no experience of living in a Islamic enclave town🙄
@@sherlockgnomes8971 btw which do you think is worse ,to make an off the cuff joke about burkhas or to use your power to collude in the rape of tens of thousands of children ,targeted because of their skin colour and religious beliefs?
@@davidatkinson5858 are you talking about the Catholic Church ? The organisation that sexually and physically abused hundreds of thousands of children across Britain / Canada/ America / Australia and Europe .
The fact you think it was just a casual joke just shows the bigotry you show . 85 percent of sex offenders in the UK are white males.
But of course, you are one of those snowflakes who probably says “straight white men” are the most attacked group in society 🤣
Why did nobody challenge the Indian questioner on his assertion that 50k people at Wembley booed Saka for missing a penalty. That didn't happen. What did happen was that there was some racist abuse on Twitter by an extremely small number of accounts, around 100 or so, of which the overwhelming majority were found to have been from outside the UK.
Um what? There was basically rioting in the streets in London. No idea what you're on about.
@@Red1Green2Blue3 there wasn't.
@@justinbutcher3623 There was.
@@Red1Green2Blue3 troll account. Go away.
@@justinbutcher3623 You're the only troll here, denying easily verifiable facts lmao.
Labour is still perfectly well able to fulfil its appointed historic role: to keep the Tories in power in perpetuity.
Late, and unprepared. That’s how much Labour cares. Ella Whelan was spot on.
She was also incredibly dull, even if she made some valid points.
Very petulant with her hatred of the working class comments. If any party hates the working class, its the Conservatives..
That's what I thought. Being late is one thing, but not preparing shows arrogance or unprofessionalism, or both.
@@sherlockgnomes8971 Neither the Conservatives or Labour represents working class people anymore. They are all corrupt self serving liars at the end of the day.
@@sherlockgnomes8971 I agree. But Labour is no longer a party.
Great to see Jess Philips late to the debate, with no speech prepared, swear at the other panelists and generally have very little to contribute to the debate as a great example why Labour and their MPs are unelectable
Yeah, the way she was delayed because she was voting on the budget prioritising her job as an MP over a debate is absolutely the problem - Labour should stop that
@@shakje123
Yeah, they should plan themselves so they're not required to be at two places at once
Or is it just me? 😂
@@jameswitts3793 she just complained about housing and NHS covid death-toll… what are Labour’s policy ideas that will make the NHS as good as the German insurance-based system (her comparison)? Or to make more houses available… or at least match the rapidly growing population? A dirge, a catalogue of complaints, there should be no billionaires, amounts to no vision of future Britain.
She spent 2015-2019 actively telling people not to vote Labour who did offer real change for the country for the first time in my lifetime. She's an ego driven charleton and adds nothing to political debate.
@@lanehewitt7685 Absolutely. Also, very passive aggressive which she barely manages to contain.
The potty mouth of Jess Phillips is a real let down. A chance to shine and she failed.
Jess Phillips is reason enough on her own not to vote Labour. That was a complete load of drivel. I had a low opinion of her before this dismal ramble. What an embarrassment.
i never thought there would be a time when the term "progressive government", would send a cold shiver down my spine.
You have responded well to the conditioning designed to prepare you well for living in a crap country.
The problem is that Labour is a progressive party. It's not a left wing party, its a progressive party. The problem with that is progressive policies are only acceptable in metropolitian areas, So central London and central Manchester and Brighton are overwhelmingly Labour, and literally everywhere else is conservative.
I'm not left wing at all, but I recognise the need for a strong opposition to keep the tories in check. I would prefer that role taken up by the Lib Dems, but thats not realistic.
@@bengoacher4455 what’s bad about labour in your opinion?
@@PeachesandCream225 They're controlled by a radical group of unelectable authoritarian progressives. They would strip your rights and freedoms in a second if they thought you were a threat to their progressive socialist state. They're out of touch with the people of this country and their emotive politics is destroying the culture and fabric of society.
@@thomasjamison2050 Perfectly put
If Jess Philips were to be in line for a cabinet position, then it’s a no vote for me.
As if to prove the For side correct, Jess jumps in offended at the idea that a University had two male students present because 'identity politics is topps'.
Too many in Labour seem to view the electorate as contemptible, especially the working class ones.
Power is seen as synonymous with comprises, selling out and a distraction from the real battle, control of the party.
The weird thing about this perception is that the Tories are far more contemptuous often openly. Is it just because we expect it from the Tories?
You know Dominic Raab and Jacob Rees Mogg are tories, right?
@@Torquemadia They appear contemptible if you are superficial and harbour insecurities about class or wealth. Similar in nature to the superficial racial contempt that some voters feel when they see a politician that isn't white or Christian.
Labour truly hold much of the electorate in contempt, you can see it policy the split between the working class voters and the middle class feminist/trans activists who can't stand most working class views. They are more interested in Palestine than any region outside of London.
Emily Thornbury making fun of a tradesmen who had a Union Jack flag on social media is the smoking gun.
@@CmdrTobs whilst I would agree with you that Thornburg is the very definition of a condescending Snob, if you think Migg and Raab don't hold us in contempt, I've got some ocean view properties in Rutland to sell you.
No-one calls the general populace "the worst idlers in Europe" out of respect.
@@CmdrTobs I agree ref Thornbury, although i think it was a St Georges flag, during the euros or world cup.
Jess Phillips had a good stab at it - was she speaking for the motion?
Labour no longer represents the working class. That is why the working class has turned their backs on them
Labour actually Despise the Working Class.
@@theknowledge.6869 and the Tories are currently doing a fantastic job for the working class? Selling off the NHS, people choosing to heat or eat, impossible for anyone to get on the housing market,
@@sherlockgnomes8971 you are correct the Tories are far worse.
The problem is that Labour are once again no longer a left wing party..
They have a shadow cabinet full of people who provide to out Tory the Tories.
They have the same economic policy as the Tories, in fact in many areas further right, and just pay lip service to a few "identity politics" subjects to give thee pretence they are on the left... Because that's what they think being left wing is.
Left wing politics means you represent the working class, and not the interests of the rich, bankers, aristocracy, "elite", which I what the right wing represents.
So Labour are now a right wing party, and this is the single main reason why the Labour party is unbelievable to the "ordinary working class person".
gee I wonder why? 🤣
@@kyllerbuzcut If that's true then why did the far-left Corbyn manifesto of 2019 crash the party back into the mud?
Essentially Jess Phillips’ opening argument is: the voters don’t know what they should want. 😂
Vey know wot vey want. Furriners out! That's how the tories won them over.
@@TesterAnimal1 they didn't know what they were voting for. We need to cancel Brexit and rejoin the EU.
If you listen to people like Phillips you will actually be less informed than before.
I understand English might not be your first language Sir, but your comment makes no grammatical sense...
@@sherlockgnomes8971 here is some Latin then - Ad Hominem
It makes you realise what a light weight Jess Phillips is, as soon as she is put up against people with substance and facts, she just withers away.
.
well they cant always be intellectual heavyweights like Ella Whelan....
Everything that labour stands for is opposite to what the working class wants
And what does the working class want?
@@myroseaccount Brexit and a man who gets things done. They genuinely believe Boris is the man ( mind blowing I know). Oh and don't forget blaming immigrants, people of colour and Muslims..
@@sherlockgnomes8971 So they want a populist that tells them what they want to hear. Whats the point of compulsory education if people are still this gullible and ignorant into adulthood.
@Gavin Bissell What is your definition of working class?
@@DanRazaMusic Myself. Born in Wolverhampton, living on council estates in Willenhall, Dad was a toolsetter then a forklift truck driver. Grandad was a manual worker in a foundry and managed to get out into a safer factory. Great grandmother who spent time as a street prostitute with 3 children before getting into a workhouse. Spent my youth playing smashing windows of old disused factories and playing football on patches of polluted disused fields next to closed factories.
Being laughed at by middle class people due to where I was born and my black country accent
Is that enough for ya!
Jess Phillips:- The epitome of everything that is wrong with the Labour Party.
Over entitled, over bearing, over rated and utterly clueless.
And you prefer Boris Johnson?
She’s not a socialist she’s a narcissist- there are many more like her.
Basically, you don't like facts and just want to be lied to.
Even when you know it's a lie.
@@Torquemadia yes, the stupids like the lies, just like they were lied to about Brexit. They didn't know what they were voting for and we know best.
Notice how she started swearing before anyone else? How she scoffed at the unfathomable reasoning that made people vote for Boris?
At the very end there, when confronted with a list of people deplatformed and cancelled, vilified for simply voicing opinions shared by the majority of English people, she defended that deplatforming and cancellation, with "We just don't want Holocaust deniers to speak"
None of the people listed have ever in any way, denied the holocaust occurred, but it is more evidence, of how the left and labour, wheel out these increasingly hollow accusations, as a means of biasing and tainting the reputation and credibility of people, who have views and opinions the left and Labour, don't like.
‘Are there any women and King’s’ - Jess Phillips.. says it all really, everything is about identity. So sorry Jess that a couple of men spoke first, what were they thinking?!
I noticed that. It undermined the two King's students who spoke. Their arguments not their gender should have been the primary focus.
I'm an old Labour supporter and was an activist in my late teens - early twenties. I haven't recognised the party since Tony Blair was elected and think their move to highlighting fringe issues, pushed by small cliques, has led to their further demise. They have taken their working class core vote for granted for too long and did so to chase middle class wet Conservative votes. They bought into neo Liberal economics. They allowed massive tax dodging by big business. They used the welfare state to top up workers wages thus leading shortfalls in spending unless they borrowed. In work poverty grew under Blair. Free movement kept skilled and unskilled wages low. I'm not far left nor a right wing Labour voter. I am what most working class Labour voters are. A common sense voter
@@liamwood3357 free movement is a government policy. And yes of course everyone is racist, that's all anyone ever is arent they. Sigh. You'll never convince anyone like that.
@@liamwood3357 in your sad little versions of those words, both and proud of it. The less like you someone is, the happier they are and the better they treat others. Enjoy your misery you absolute spanner.
@@liamwood3357 Free movement did keep wages low, take my industry for example haulage, under free movement lots of East European drivers worked here and wages stagnated. Its supply and demand haulage companies stopped training people, they didnt need to they had a plentiful supply, my wages didnt rise in over a decade, then after Brexit and tax changes the Europeans left......massive driver shortage and my wage increased 50% in 3 months. The same has happened in other industries.......Now you can call me racist lol
@@liamwood3357 "See that urge that made you want to insult me instead of respond to the logic? That's called cognitive dissonance." See your first reply to this post as an example lol
@@liamwood3357 Nope. It just amused me that you called someone out for insulting you, and suggested it meant they knew you were right, when you'd already spent the thread doing just that.
Complete bollocks that '50,000 people were chanting racist slurs' at Saka when he missed the penalty. That is not correct, at all. That boy is living in an alternate reality. I just watched it again, on youtube, from someone with a phone in the crowd and, when he missed, there was COMPLETE SILENCE. This kind of ignorant slander about our country really pisses me off. It's so damaging. Jess Phillips sat there clapping. THAT is why they're unelectable.
Correct, the Indian man was ludicrous.
What's the point of having people ask question, when you hardly address them?
The Labour Party’s position after the Referendum was indeed perfectly clear . It consistently showed open contempt for the result !!!!!!!!!!! Outrageous for Ms Phillips to claim otherwise !!!!!!!!!!!!
Jess Phillips talk of people giving up on things getting better has a (what should be) pretty obvious response: whenever these issues are talked about by the Left which has some power and a voice, it is framed within helping certain identity groups rather than the whole. Why would this not lead to disenfranchisement of straight, white working class people who are not only effectively told that they don't count, but they are inherently oppressive and privileged?
You think Corbyn's manifesto was not aimed at helping the working class, ad was on the whole a mostly identitarian politics manifesto? Jezzz
@@roberthorne9597 I agree with you and was a paying Corbyn supporter. Unless it escaped your attention identarians such as Phillips hated him and eventually forced him out. They are now the majority- that is exactly my point.
@@fiveleavesleft6521 "whenever these issues are talked about by the Left which has some power and a voice, it is framed within helping certain identity groups rather than the whole. "
Then why say this? surely you agree that the manifesto was aimed at the "whole"? And you would also agree that the Corbyn is on the left...
I guess what I am saying is that Jess has a point and whether she pushed out Corbyn or not, we were on track to giving people hope with that manifesto. Leading me to say that your point is not the reason why Labour hasn't inspired a new vision for the working man (white, black, brown), but instead to say that she is right and we have proof in 2017 and I would also say we have proof in 2019.
@@roberthorne9597 So you haven't noticed that most academic and journalistic Left discourse is based around identity now rather than class or generalised, unifying ideas of fighting poverty, fighting for nationalisation etc? If not I don't really know what to say. There is a paper trail going all the way back to the Frankfurt school thinkers and Gramsci, via Black Feminism, Kimberle Crenshaw etc actively advocating ditching class solidarity (because the workers had failed to rise up) and replacing it with identity resentment ,the idea being that enough identity groups feeling that they are oppressed will be the fuel to overturn the system. Unfortunately this throws up many absurd contradictions such as lumping poor whites in the oppressor class because they lack the required identity markers and listing the relatively wealthy Jews (on average as a group) as oppressors despite their long history of being oppressed. This is the paradigm we are now in and it was a deliberate decision by people who wield power and influence at the top of the Left. The truth is that Corbyn was getting in the way.
You're one of those ''white straight men are a dying breed and the most vunlerblae group in society'' blokes *facepalm*
Completely disagree with Jess. The media sets the narratives. It's called manufacturing consent.
It's such an odd point. Labour aren't electable because they don't oppose the tories where I want them to. And so voters will vote for the tories.
Which is is? Are voters feeling unrepresented due to the assault on their rights and economic conditions or are they voting for the Tories?
The downfall of the Labour party started post militant tendency. They flew in non local m.p.'s into constituencies, most of whom had only a nodding acquaintance with how the working class live and think. They sold their souls for power and Yes Blair became prime minister but he steadily lost three million Labour voters over time. Worst still many Labour m.p.'s could be classed as tory wets. They chased the middle class vote leaving the working class as a group to be managed. I am a middle of the road Labour voter but I find it difficult to vote for them and can understand why working class socially Conservative voters have deserted them
@@seang2700 Labour have always fought amongst themselves. They mentally masturbate too much and even though they agree on 98% of policy they tear each others throats out over the 2% they disagree over.
@@seang2700
Oh right - The seventeen million who lost the Referendum and can't get over it ?
@@connsaunders9600 oh dear
Vote for the social Democrats instead. They are the real "labour" party today.
@@toffeecrisp2146 vote social democrat? Don't be ridiculous. They jettisoned nearly all their policies when they shared power with the conservatives
Interesting that this discussion was bookended first by Matt declaring that cultural politics has subsumed economic concerns, and lastly by Ella insisting that "everyone is talking about" some woman most of us have never heard of. As flawed a leader as Corbyn was, British people damn near elected him in 2017, not because of who he is but the shift in economic direction he advocated for. I don't know if they're making the classic mistake of confusing Twitter for real life, but I remain unconvinced that James Carville's "It's the economy, stupid" maxim doesn't still apply.
had Corbyn not allowed himself to be browbeaten by the Remainers on his front bench and betray the Brexit vote he would be PM today
@@dolmen6613 There was no betrayal of the Brexit vote. Brexit was an advisory referendum and did not have to be implemented. By all means let's implement the 'will of the people' if that's what it is ( I don't think it is but never mind) and watch the consequences unfold. If Covid had not masked the disaster of Brexit, it would have been the main news agenda ( BBC fear of government disapproval notwithstanding) every day. Reduced trade with the EU, rubbish trade deals with other countries around the world ( empire free trade failed in the 1930s and its 21st century equivalent will too), low tax for the rich and business, tax evasion, stagnant wages and a low growth economy and shortages of workers due to racism against immigrants; fortress Britain is going to wonder one day ( the penny is always slow to drop) why everything has crumbled and where the money is that used to pay for the economy. The rich will be richer and won't lose any sleep over taking a wrecking ball to the economy and society over the last forty years.
Matt is a 'national populist', this narrative suits him because he wants to fight about cultural issues from the right. Family values and other various dog whistles.
Edit: Ahhh Defending a Holocaust denier. More far gone than I thought.
@@eightiesmusic1984 -If the EU is such a paradise and Brexit Britain such a disaster how come 100's arrive every day from the EU to Dover and .. the number fleeing to Calais is , er.. 0
@@dolmen6613 The EU is imperfect, therefore cannot be paradise. It makes no sense to cut trade ( German trade down 8% in latest figures reported today) with a land mass that is adjacent to the UK in favour of chimeric, limited and unfavourable trade deals with countries further afield. Empire free trade failed in the 1930s and it will fail again in its modern iteration.
The refugee crisis has to be dealt with and is here to stay. Global warming will lead to huge migration across the world as places become uninhabitable. Germany has taken in large numbers of people and helped them integrate in society. The point about people fleeing to Calais is nonsensical. The truth about the consequences of Brexit is playing out. It is a con and is the biggest mistake in over 50 years.
The debate was lost the second Jess Phillips was announced as a speaker.
Matt Goodwin excellent, he gets it
I do believe that the Labour Party hate the working class
I believe sections of the party do and a lot of its new supporters.
It's also evident that many of them hate the country in general - at least if social media is anything to go by.
Labour today is far from the Party of Clem Attlee or Harold Wilson The speaker who mentioned “wokeism” is spot on. It has replaced socialism and that’s a sad thing
Total nonsense
That is unfortunately true but not completely! And I think we now have the opportunity for a come-back of Socialism within the Labour Party and around the world now with the economic problems caused by the fallout of the pandemic and the energy crisis; capitalism is proving itself disfunctional and there is appetite for decent economic policy.
Keir Starmer has moved away from the woke, almost radical social liberal, image of the Corbyn era and the polls now consistently suggest that not only the Red Wall is back up but the Labour Party is set to gain seats in parts of England it never has before. I can't wait to see this speaker proved wrong in 2023/24.
@@MB-be7nz clueless wokie.
You must not know where racism and modern misogyny came from if you think they aren't intrinsic to capitalism
What is a double betrayal really is that working conditions for lower and unskilled have got worse and worse, but an effective labour party could have helped fight that. But then it mostly affects the UK born working class so it's not niche enough to interest the modern labour party.
I think Matthew Goodwin's analysis of the state of contemporary British politics is as close to mark as I've heard. He understands the mindset of the average voter, he gets why the tories are winning, and I think he correctly predicts just how useless labour will be in the foreseeable future. They've lost touch with people like me.
@Mark D The so called culture wars are a right wing distraction to make people avert their eyes from what is really going on to decrease their living standards. The cake is big enough to share it out and with only a modicum of imagination policy can redistribute wealth. Thatcher said New Labour was her greatest creation- she was right, which is the tragedy. The consequences of the wrecking ball she took to economy and society are still being played out today by the worst government in terms of policy and competence since universal suffrage. It will be an uphill task to reverse it , if ever ( I will not be holding my breath). People have been deliberately rendered defenceless against the market with their protection in the forms of unions and collective bargaining smashed. It is no accident that unions and the rich paying more tax are rarely discussed- the right neutralised them. Woke psychodrama says Oliver Dowden in a speech to a right wing think tank- utter nonsense.
@Mark D if Labour hasn’t lost touch with people, then explain to me why they haven’t had a cat in hells chance of being voted in for the last decade or so, and aren’t likely to be for the foreseeable future? Plus, try not to use the boring excuse of the right wing media.
@Mark D no it’s a fact not a right wing meme . Labour themselves label themselves the party of the working people . That’s is what is meant as your average voter “working class” . Right wing education system ? Right wing media ? Lmao you are so lost it’s a joke .
Nothing but useful idiots on this thread
@Mark D The IEA is now mainstream, featured on the BBC. It peddles right wing ideology that was on the fringes of thinking even twenty years ago and certainly fifty years ago. Pub bores at the end of the bar and golf club hardliners might have been fellow travellers but not the majority of the population. Right wing groups have organised effectively ( a conspiracy in plain sight) to colonise the airwaves and control the 'debate'. They frame everything as if highly contentious ideas are the norm and should be seen as received wisdom, as if they are the keepers of the flame of what is in everybody's best interests. They work for the rich of course.
Yes Labour are Unelectable ... due to their policies, history and views...
43:35 under who's government did housing become unaffordable for the young, especially around London and the South East. Nothing I'm sure to do with Labour's immigration policy.
Jess Phillips role seems to be an acceptable northern voice to the BBC.
Northern? She is from the MIDlands. Yet, I do have to agree that there London elite treat Birmingham as the top of England, with only Scotland after.
@@mechminded2207 In fairness probably the most public, reasonable northern voice in labour is now the speaker so cant do these kind of engagements anymore.
As a life long centralist all be it liberal, we need a strong alteratives to make our sysrem work.
Globalisation destroyed the nation state democracy decades ago unfortunately.
@@jeffkitson9565 Globalisation destroyed the nation state democracy decades ago.
@@jeffkitson9565 The Liberal Democrats are classical liberals ( right wingers) who believe in a small state. Hence the fact they had no problem supporting austerity, which not only harmed lives, caused 57,000 deaths (ONS), failed to meet its own deficit reduction targets but also paved the way for Brexit based on the false premise that the EU/ immigration was to blame for the state of the economy. Keynes was right- there is no country where slashing spending has created recovery. The rich hoard their cash, the poor spend it on the economy but not if they cannot make ends meet. Sunak believes in austerity and will likely return to it with gusto ( it never fully ended anyway). The public do not want to see public services run down further; they are already in a parlous state due to the Conservatives. The comparison with Macron does not hold- the French state is much larger and involved in people's lives than here. Sarkozy spoke in 2007 of emulating Thatcher but that went nowhere and no French leader since has embarked on a fools errand. France is not the UK, thank goodness.
@@jeffkitson9565 The Liberals are divided between the free market leadership and the more left leaning activists. Perhaps the party under Ashdown, Menzies Campbell or Charles Kennedy might have been able to gain seats but the high water mark in recent history was 50 seats in 1997, largely aided by the Labour landslide. The 1916 Liberal split and the 1924 election result cemented the decline of the Liberals, eclipsed by Labour.
Class is the defining characteristic of British society, unfortunately. The Conservatives know it and they use it to ruthlessly preserve their position.
@@jeffkitson9565 are you claiming the UK had the ability to control European immigration while in the EU? Ultimately brexit gives Britain the ability to run its own immigration policy
The biggest problem I have with this debate is that the term “working class” needs to be clearly defined before starting off. Is it the minority care worker getting next to nothing or the highly remunerated construction worker building housing for … migrants?
Factually, Jess Phillips is wrong; she didn't win by an increased majority both times. In 2010 her majority fell from 37.3% in 2017 to 25% in 2019.
Strong stuff from Ella, but difficult to argue against. The truth is, Labour will always lose elections if Brits think a deal will be done with the SNP. That's just a fact.
And why is a deal with the SNP so bad, it seems to me if you want socialist policies you should vote for the SNP in England because your never going to get them with labour, of course the other option is your anti Scots, can't think why we've given the Brits some marvelous inventions and discoveries
@@firebyrd437
I'm not anti Scots, I'm pro UK.
There are many that want to divide us, including those two parties.
@@mesolithicman164 I do not support the union its an unequal union and we have a government foisted on us we do not vote for, Labour is the cause of this because they lost support in Scotland as they left their socialist policies behind and became no different from the tories. It never ceases to amaze me how many people that support the union know nothing about the other countries that are in the union and assume were better together, its like living with your next door neighbour telling you what you have to do and taking your wage and doling it out as they see fit. We've been dragged out of the EU despite the last referendum better together campaign promise that the only way to be in the EU is if we remain the union and the fear campaign peddlars phoning up pensioners to say they wouldn't get their pensions. The union is viewed as this perfect entity by some and by many others as a union that gives to much money to Scotland scroungers they call us, we have had oil for decades and thanks to that revenue the South of England prospered whereas the North like most if the countries in the union didn't. It grieves me so much that our wealth has been squandered with nothing to show for it except more food banks and I can assure you of this labour is finished in Scotland along with the tories yet despite that we still have a tory government in power thats hates Scotland and we can do nothing because when Blair set up devolution he gave us no real power, he also secretly changed the sea border the night before devolution so he could steal 600 miles of our waters that contained 7 oil wells
@@firebyrd437
No I'm sure you don't, when Labour were in charge and most of the cabinet were Scottish, there were no complaints from your type. Now Scotland has it's own parliament and Scottish politicians choose to focus on that obviously representation in the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Parties at Westminster has decreased. That's their choice. Second, Scotland would have been sunk without English money over the last 2 years. But as is always the case, all the good bits are just accepted 'by right' and minor grievances dwelt upon as Scots 'being penalised'. The truth is the South of England generates the vast amount of cash that pays for the UK, but you don't hear them saying they need to separate. Because the reality is Scottish Nationalism is nothing more than a giant chip on the shoulder of Scotsmen, there is no other rational explanation. You have a financial deal that gives you more money than any other part of the UK and its still not enough. It's a huge inferiority complex. As ably seen by any football match against England. The Scots look like they're playing in the World Cup final in those games, but then lose to the Faroe Islands in the next game. What you don't see is that England aren't that bothered because Germany and France are the rivals that motivate our players.
Leaving the UK to take a begging bowl to Brussels isn't independence. It's pure inferiority. As a country you need to grow up, accept you're a small country and work on your own self respect. Sniping at England is a small country mentality, a confident country doesn't need to do it.
Strong stuff ahahaha, she reminded me of Stacy Dooley *facepalm*. The unfortunate thing is that many people in the UK think Stacey Dooley is a successful and intelligent journalist..
Can I ask, what date did this debate take place? I noticed the moderator with a poppy, so wanted to check.
October 2021
That just about killed off the probity of IQ2!
That's odd - Ordinary Londoners have zero chance to buy a house because Woke University Graduates like Jess Phillips have flooded into Traditional Working Class Areas and driven up prices.
Don't you mean developers have driven up prices? Most uni graduates can't afford houses where they live either so are pushed into lower cost areas
@@TomYeeha
Do me a favour !
If they want cheap housing - the last place to come is London.
@@TomYeeha
It ain't Developers that buy up all the property in the catchment areas of all the best State Schools - So that Working Class Londoners kids don't get a look in !
Nothing filled me with any confidence that Labour understands the electorate outside of London, Brighton and Bristol. They certainly don't speak for the working class. I think Matthew Goodwin got it right.
Really enjoyed Ella's rousing speech. Now we've left the EU, I know the Conservatives are going to bring in citizens assemblies, so that 'ordinary people' will be part of the decisions in making our new set of British laws. I remember Atlee's government, oppressing the working class by creating the NHS. New Labour, patronising ordinary working people by reducing child poverty and introducing the national minimum wage. The huge increase in child poverty since 2010 shows the the Conservatives believe our children can make it on their own two feet, they don't need Labour mollycoddling them. I can't wait for Britain to become great again in the next ten years!
You actually had me going there for a sec
Lawrence. Says it all.
Phooey figures and lies by acts of omission. Child poverty - do some research methodology.
Attlee and the NHS - Its foundations were laid by the likes of Willink and Beveridge - neither of them Labour. Fatty Bevan, that emotionally incontinent buffoon, gets all the credit because people have told lies and still do. Incidentally, Attlee's lot were wrong on health - as the historic comparisons with our neighbours clearly shows. He was also catastrophically wrong on economics - pumping in untold wealth into dead duck industries, turning working-class Britain into a museum. I remember start ups failing or not bothering in the 70s because the best workers sat on their arses drinking tea as their neighbours paid their wages. The cultural, economic and ecological catastrophe that Labour unleashed on the working-class is more than equal to the disasters that will befall the poor if the current lot of stuck-up Oxfam couture numpties take over. Lastly, have you ever considered the evidence that shows min wage laws reduce wages among the poorest?
@@damianbylightning6823 In terms of the NHS- obviously not one individual is responsible for anything. The majority of ideas and foundations have been laid by others before they are actually implemented. Thatcher's ideas came from Hayek, doesn't mean she can't take responsibility for implementing them.
I'm not saying Labour's record was perfect, Keynesianism ran into trouble in the 1970s, mostly because of the 73' oil crisis. But 1945- 1973 was the highest growth experienced in the UK in the twentieth century, and it was actually fairly distributed. Greater interventionist policies.
I'm aware of the arguments against the minimum wage, that it leads to workers being laid off. The difficulty is, if you can't earn enough from your employers, people need financial support from the government, and that's coming from the taxpayer. You can hardly blame a worker who works full time and can't afford the costs of living for wanting an increase in their wage can you? How in touch are you with people that earn the minimum wage? You're going to need to present evidence that proves your point.
New Labour did totally patronise the working classes by making people who worked part time better off than those who worked full time on the minimum wage.
Good old Jess. She swung that vote for the motion
I was very disapointed with Jess Phillips but Matthew Goodwin would get my vote.
Labour walked away for the working class years ago, their indifference lost Scotland and opened the door to the SNP.. Corbyn was a disaster, when your leader can't admit that biological women have cervix you have a problem.. breastfeeding is now chest feeding etc..
I always like to listen to Matthew Goodwin.
Matthew Goodwin is simply brilliant.
Possibly the worst debate I’ve ever seen.
1. Please can someone tell us: What were the results of the preliminary and final votes?
Jess Philips? I literally wouldn’t……….
Elect her.
Mathew Goodwin - clear, concise and nailed it
What is the Indian guy on about? 50,000 people didn't chant racist abuse at Saka at all. A relative handful of idiots online aimed abuse at him, many of whom came from abroad (many from India, in fact).
Missed opportunity to not only correct that false claim but to use it as an example of exactly what he argued: that issues around race are being exaggerated and disproportionately fixated upon - to the extent, it would appear, that news coverage of such incidents is entirely misleading.
Labour assumed it could always carry the bulk of working-class voters, a big mistake.
😂 😂 😂 that’s the beauty of a free press ! Tell that to Julian Assange , unbelievable , they really are that brainwashed
Jess Phillips in an Intelligence Squared debate. Now I've seen it all.
Is water wet?
Interesting how middle-class Jess thinks she can sound more authentic and working-class by using crude language inappropriate to the situation.
Jess Phillips = Owen Jones (interchangeable)
Why does Jess Philips always look and sounds like she wants to have a fight 🤔
Because she’s a bitter femmo with the temperament of a bloke
Matthew Goodwin ... spot on.
Labour. Oblivious, delusional, don't listen, don't care. I hope they are unelectable because I wouldn't want them running this country any more than the Tories. We really need a new party.
I can’t believe the language used by a elected labour member such as Phillips , doesn’t install confidence at all
Surely the current Tory party are the main non-Conservative force in the country? Labour, even as the party of the "minorities," could win in the face of the Tories total failure (especially on immigration) even as Labour are even worse than the Tories on immigration, a "win" that only underlines the fact Labour is no alternative at all. Neither party represents the British people. The Green even worse. We need a new party -- one that represents the British people.
Jess Philips personifies everything Ella Whelan criticized Labour for - their lazy contempt for the British people - and their slack arrogant assumption that they only have to wait the Tories out and meanwhile just carry on talking about "things can only getting better."
The Conservatives haven't conserved anything for the last 70 years. Capitalism is the bulwark for Liberalism Consumerism Individualism and Globalisation.
When people talk about politicians being "electable", we must remember that both Boris Johnson and Donald Trump won elections. We must ask more critical questions about what we actually expect from leaders. Do we want people who will pander, or people who actually have policies that will improve the lives of the working class? New Labour spent decades mastering the art of spin and pandering to tabloid readers, but it never had substance. In trying to bring that back, Starmer is making a fatal error. Corbyn had a lot of crap thrown at him, but he had (and has) enduring support because he always stood on the side of the overwhelming majority of people when it came to economic policy.
Why then did he lose the two elections he fought, one of them by a complete landslide?
@@SSMMTTEE The media hammered him practically every second of every day. The blairite wing of the Labour Party spent more time trying to get rid of him than it did supporting him and the party.
He did make mistakes, for sure. Like supporting immigration and not being open in his support for leaving the EU.
But he as a person, has principles, which is more than can be said for the New Labour scum.
@@deepzepp4176 Wahh wahh wahh, the media attack every Labour leader, if that’s your only excuse it shows how rubbish he was.
@@SSMMTTEE So you see no difference in the way the media treated Corbyn, to the way they’re currently treating Starmer?
@@deepzepp4176 Other than there simply being more material to go after Corbyn thanks to his decades long association with dodgy characters, not particularly. All the newspapers that were against Labour in 2017 and 2019 remain against them today in 2022.
Jess talks about Boris not being trusted - but trust isn't a brand-builder. Just look at Facebook!
54:30 Makes a good point, but it's one of perception. There was probably too much in the Manifesto, but it came from aspirations of the grass roots and was never intended to be some sort of 5 year plan as a signpost of the direction they wanted to go in.
Answer. Tragically and unbelievably…yes. ..absolutely!
Intelligence ^2 got Jess Phillips in?
Hahahahaha.
Well well Jess admits the down at heal in Britain have given up and lost expectations of anything better , who stood up against zero hours contracts , the working class have no power to object and those MPs on fat salaries don’t care !
Is Labour a serious and credible party? No. I was life-long Labour voter. Not any more. Labour is over. Britain is effectively a one party state.
Once upon a time the working class voted Labour believing the Tories were for posh people. Nowadays the working class aren't posh enough for the Labour Party. Funny old game politics. Innit?
The first speaker says a bunch of things that most people would probably agree with... then says it's because Labour party politicians have moved too far to the left for the liking of the membership, His conclusion is the exact OPPOSITE of the truth. Everyone knows Labour's problem is that most of it's MPs and high up party officials are all about emulating Thatcher, whereas the membership - of which there's been a mass exodus - is tired of this, and want the party to actually move back left of centre!
Membership of over 500,000 under Corbyn, the largest political party in Europe. A moment of hope, now gone. The PLP is out of touch with party members.
well said;-) the first speaker is a twat 2nd is right Labour are not dead but ain't going anywhere with Starmer the 3rd speaker just a Labour basher and jess phillips is why I won't be voting Labour;-( I like Jeremy Corbyn
Maybe it isn't awful to assume a professor in politics may know a liiitle more than we do...
@@boi4367 He may know more than you but I can see straight through his capitalist agenda this is the only way... yeah for nob heads
@@eightiesmusic1984 they were all super saver socialists when they cut the membership fees. Sometimes less is more.
Right Corbyn isn't a member, he's a orphan
The zeitgeist has shifted since October 2021. The Tories on the panel might not be quite so smug now.
They aren't Tories, they're people who believe that Labour are unelectable
@@boi4367 They were repeating all the Tory dog whistles in the debate, possibly a strategic choice?
@@juanribeiro73 Unfortunately Globalisation destroyed the nation state democracy decades ago.
@@evolassunglasses4673 Globalisation is a neoliberal project initiated by Thatcher.
Nail in their coffin for me was the cervix question...bunch of clowns
The FPTP voting system in use for general elections in the UK is not about voting for the party you prefer but voting for the less evil party inbetween the two most popular parties in your very own constituencies. So in many English constituencies you must choose between Conservatives or Labour if not your vote will be wasted. If your are in Scotland you need to chose between SNP and the libdem/labour/conservative depending where you live. I think that BJ is working hard helping the Labour Party to be seen as the least evil out of the two moguls of the UK political scene.
I am a Labour voter and i knew the left would lose this debate when i saw who was speaking on their behalf. Jess is not only an embarrassment to the party, but an embarrassment to her constituency.
I think it’s interesting that the before JP turns up for this the talk for the others is about labours apparent obsession with identity politics and how it puts them out of touch with voters. When JP actually turns up having missed these contributions her argument actually ends up being about meat and potatoes government spending and nothing of identity politics.
So…is Labour actually obsessed by identity politics or do we just think it is because right wing media keeps telling us it is?
Multiple choice quiz; a) because right wing media tells us it is
b) because right wing media tell us it is
c) because right wing media tells us it is
Answer is a, b and c
I claim £5 from any right wing pundit deliberately hoodwinking the voters ( not literally, it is a figure of speech).
@@eightiesmusic1984 I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not but my question is genuine. I feel like most times I hear people use the word “woke” it’s coming from a Julia Hartley Brewer type getting in a froth, not a labour MP.
@@neverdiminished It is not in the least sarcastic. Anyone who disagreed with the apparently rhetorical point you were making would not have made the same point in this way. It was meant to be mildly humorous but never mind. I also refer to right wing pundits deliberately hoodwinking voters-this ought to be self explanatory.
The right wing media didn't host the Labour Party general conference
@@mrblackdx It was hosted by the right wing Labour leadership. Where have you been?
The way the government is heading, Labour is ineluctable.
Hahaha, very nice ;)
Matt goodwin is a legend
As someone who grew up in a family of trade unionists ...Yes , they are completely unelectable .
I notice that the most fundamental point of all i.e. PR was either glanced upon obliquely by Anand or completely by-passed and unanswered when it came up as a question near the end. As one of the speakers said, Labour haven't won the popular vote in England since 2001. The Tories now have critical mass in England. Labour can't beat that on their own. They're peddling illusion.
@@seang2700 : I fear you're right and it's because Labour is stuck at heart in a traditional English small c conservative mindset.
@@seang2700 : well, you know how the Westminster political class can be expected to play it. If electoral reform starts to look inevitable/unavoidable Labour & the Tories will try to water it down from proper PR - which would address the safe seat problem - and campaign for some hybrid which hardly makes any difference to the system they know and love.
That's why the Tories allowed the tawdry 2011 referendum on AV, knowing that even if it by some miracle passed, it would make barely any difference to Westminster seat distribution.
Jess Phillip's showing herself up. Nothing new, always fun to watch though. Thanks Ella and Matt 😏
Labour are finished.
Simple answer.... Totally unelectable!
Unelectable is a bit of a relative term here. There is one factor, not applicable to the Conservatives, without which Labour could never win a majority in the UK - Scotland. However awful the SNP have been, Scottish voters are showing no sign of returning to Labour in the foreseeable future.
Nonsense one two fronts. 1. Very rarely if ever is the scottish vote a deciding factor in an election. 2. Labour abandoned the working class in Scotland choosing blind unionism over their apparent socialist values in 2014.
The SNP moved slightly more left and showed scottish voters what an actual centre left party could achieve. So much so that labour scrambled to copy snp policy and manifesto promises. Labour supports self determination (apart from Scotland), has expelled members for daring to support a second referendum and has a leader that sent his kids to private school whilst the family firm refused to pay the living wage Labour championed. Really just a fringe party up here at this point. I'd be worried the greens overtake them next.
Typical Jess Philips gets called out what does she do starts shouting and talking over people and the diversion tactics (Gavin Williamson)
both partys should concentrate on the majority of the people not the woke nutters
Labour need to be a socially conservative and left wing on the economy party.
Is Intelligence Squared unwatchable?
Yes it is. I've now blocked it from appearing in suggestions. They constantly have a poor selection of guests. I should have guessed from the name of the channel tbh
The Labour Party has forgotten democracy within the party. My Dad was a Labour Party Rep in Fulham for over 35 years and a huge Trade Unionist, he was elected by his peers....now the Labour Party use Momentum as the selection committee of candidates, where did they pop up from? As a member (now-ex) no one asked me if it was OK to have a group within the party to do this........now minority groups are side lined as are the Jewish section, it has all but left the party....under Corbyn it went far too left and in fact militant........until it changes is guise it will never get my vote again.
jewish voices who spoke against Israel were suspended. So were others who supported Palestine.
The chairman just happens to be a labour activist, as well as a political editor on the BBC. 😏
Jess Philips has a career waiting as a motivational speaker 🙄
"If you've nothing to say - say it slowly."
I’m just a working class lad from a council estate, my dad was a labour councillor so I was fully indoctrinated into the Labour Party. Im now 56 and I’ve voted for the Conservatives in the last two elections mainly because of Jeremy Corbyn I just couldn’t vote for someone who hates his own country,but also because of the woke crap that the Labour Party seams to support.
I’ve been very disappointed with Boris Johnsons Conservative party because there more liberal than conservative ,so I’ll give them a couple of more years to sort it out or like many of my friends I’ll be looking Further to the right.🇬🇧✌️
Ironic that 2 years on from this video, Labour is about to come back to power with a majority twice that of Boris's....and the question is "Is the Conservative Party unelectable ?".