A hard look at EMDR and its unscrupulous founder
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2024
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EMDR is a therapy that uses eye movements to treat trauma. So...is it legit? We're going to dive deep into the world of EMDR therapy, exploring its origins, controversies, and the big question: How does eye movement help treat trauma? Join me as we unravel both the mysteries of this unique therapeutic approach and the life of its founder, Francine Shapiro, whose zeal and questionable business practices created the EMDR empire we know today. I also discuss current research findings on its efficacy and the controversies surrounding EMDR as an institution, including its dubious ties to pseudoscience.
This is really an opportunity for me to give my own perspective, navigate the complexities of EMDR, uncover its potential merits (especially in treating PTSD), and address the fanaticism and marketing claims that surround it. Whether you're a therapist, curious about mental health treatments, or just interested in learning a wild story, this video aims to shed light on the fascinating world of EMDR therapy and the ongoing debates within the mental health community.
Sources (& sample session links): bit.ly/emdrvideosources
0:00 - Intro
1:43 - My experience with EMDR
3:47 - Francine Shapiro: EMDR's founder
7:59 - The origins of EMDR
11:44 - What EMDR looks like in practice
18:51 - What the research says about EMDR
24:52 - What are the eye movements doing?
29:18 - Controversies around EMDR
38:58 - The slippery response to criticism
42:53 - The weird culture around EMDR
45:20 - EMDR is a "purple hat"
49:47 - A clarification and my closing thoughts
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What do YOU think the eye movements are doing? Wrong answers only.
Honestly, I think it's a pretty good way to end climate change.
Providing a ritual with a shared expectation that the healing will occur (see Frank and Frank, Persuasion and Healing). Oh wait, you said wrong answers only...
There's also the possibility that a minor distraction allows for better exposure trials, possibly due to more confidence or willingness to tolerate the distress of exposure to feared stimuli or perhaps because it "short-circuits" avoidance. This is speculative - so it counts as a (probably) "wrong answer."
I think they sychronize the left and the right part of the brain and reveal the feelings and connecting them with the gnostic part of the brain.
The eye movements are how we signal to our besties that our therapist is weird.
I have cptsd and I benefited significantly from emdr, I was 14, unable to go to school, barely able to socialize with people and had a whole host of other issues and behaviours, my life just felt like an endless revolving door of psych and hospital visits. I'm 20 now and I'm not "cured" by any means but I've been out of hospital for 2 maybe 3 years and I'm on my way to go to uni.
I'm going to be honest, I don't really care if it wasn't the emdr itself that helped, I have wondered if maybe it was some sort of placebo, or the fact that somebody was finally listening to my story and stayed with me to cry it out. The support I had in that time helped me go from somebody nobody expected to recover to somebody that did. Hard not to be thankful for that.
That being said I don't think things that don't work should be pushed on vulnerable people as a solution, there's always this pressure for us to do anything and everything to recover, and when it doesn't work then patients are left feeling like they "failed" therapy that was never effective in the first place. It's demotivating.
Sounds like basically exposure therapy, which works when the therapist isn't a sadist.
@@Solscapes. Yeah! to be honest I found the emdr bits a little frustrating lol.
Dude , it was the emdr that worked , i am doing emdr the past year and its miraculous.
And I wish you the best , keep pushing and you will find your way.
@@Solscapes.No its not exposure therapy , in exposure therapy you have an obsticle in your mind and you learn to jump higher , with emdr you make the obsticle small if not remove it completely. Five it a try its real
I’m a licensed clinical psychologist and have worked in the mental health field for about 20 years. I’ve also participated in EMDR with my own therapist. I, too, am still skeptical, not of the fact that our minds and bodies are absolutely connected and that trauma lives in the body, as there is a lot of research to support this, but of the eye movement aspect. As for my experience as a patient, targeting traumatic memories through guided exposure did reduce the emotional charge of the event but the eye movement/tapping didn’t seem necessary. It was not a “magic” fix as some people say it is.
It didn't feel like "magic" per se, but 10 minutes of EMDR certainly compared to months of CBT for me.
It feels like magic because people don't understand how something so small could help. In the moment it doesn't feel transformative yet in hindsight it is very. So, magic!
Read “the body keeps score” guys. It’s all about the body and how it stores trauma. Emdr is recommended for limbic therapy
I did EMDR for trauma in my 20s, and did another trauma intervention called Somatic therapy much more recently in my 30s. I found that the EMDR was pretty intense, but it worked. It worked when nothing else seemed to help. As others have said, I got more out of those pivotal EMDR sessions than I did out of a year of CBT, including outpatient. That's not to knock CBT, but I just don't think CBT is really equipped to treat symptoms of trauma.
My therapist today uses an intervention she calls somatic therapy. I actually like somatic much more, I'm getting good results, but it's a lot less intense in-session. EMDR is highly directive, it can exhausting. Sort of like how people dread going to chemotherapy, I developed an aversion to going in to EMDR. By comparison, Somatic has felt spontaneous, imaginative, and more like I'm the one generating the healing.
I have no idea if this somatic approach is even evidence based, lol, I haven't looked it up. Maybe I'm having a powerful placebo effect.
I agree with you on the skepticism on the REM aspect. Not sure the clinical relevance of that. But what WAS helpful: having a trusted, experienced therapist there to guide me through my past traumatic events. She had me go back to relive the worst moments of my traumatic childhood. But it felt different with her voice narrating the event, helping me to reframe it. She did help me to realize that a lot of what I experienced in childhood was not my fault, and that my mind and body did what it could at the time to help me through it. But also, that it was now time to let it go.....I only did 3-4 sessions, and they were intense. And it wasn't immediately that I felt better. But in the weeks and months after, I noticed I was sleeping better, and no longer experiencing "night terrors" around my ACE events (usually involving me being afraid of being murdered by someone close to me) I also noticed that I became more cognizant of my triggers in real time, and could control my emotional response to it. It's not a perfect "science", but it can be effective
Here’s the thing
I’m a psychologist with a neuroscience background and I had the exact same reservations as you. I also spent a ton of time in my 20s dabbling in the world of alternative health, getting reiki certifications and studying hypnosis. The reality of psychology in general right now is that it is in a catastrophic state from the perspective of empirical backing, even the most supposedly essential concepts are failing basic examinations of repeatability in a lab environment. This leaves us as practicing psychologists in a kind of difficult position where we have to put forward this idea of empirical backing to keep our accreditation intact while also not looking to deep behind the curtain because it is easy to feel like a fraud, even when you look at the studies about the supposedly most reputable systems like CBT.
I think it’s fine to accept that we are still in the early days and that an individual psychologist themselves needs to be both open minded and very skeptical so they can assess what will work for what patient. I personally think a lot of the specific protocol that underlies EMDR is superfluous like the tapping and what is useful is basically based on a mix of conditioning training with bits of old school hypnosis thrown in. But, it has helped clients of mine that have gone though horrible things, and that is worth as much to me as a scientific study because as a psychologist we have no choice but to assess outside of the lab.
We need to re think the entire process of empirical examination of psychological concepts from the ground up in addition to critically assessing old studies for statistical errors and biases, until that happens the individual psychologist has to rely on their own judgement while maintaining a sharp empirical sense.
This is a great response. As a massage therapist (I know, it’s leagues away from neuroscience lol), I find that empirical research fails our industry as well. You can’t really research massage (or psychology) like you would, say, the effects of insulin. Everyone gives massage differently, everyone reacts to massage differently, and there are so many modalities, it’s hard to know what’s bogus and what isn’t. We do know it’s overall beneficial, we just don’t know how.
It leaves us in a similar state, in which we find ourselves telling clients about studies with low reliability and many confounding variables, because that’s what available and it looks promising, but we know in our heart of hearts that nothing much is concretely known about the effects of our work at all. It’s hard not to feel like a fraud lol 😅
Are you sceptical of CBT, I'm a new LMSW and I'm curious what your critiques are of that modality
I wonder if it "works" in the sense that the tapping or eye movements provide a little bit of distraction and/or comfort during the process. I've done some tapping in the past for anxiety, combined with positive self talk, and it does feel a bit like a mini massage, so perhaps that's all that is going on with EMDR. That a little something comforting or distracting helps calm a person down a bit to think more rationally and therefore they are better able to process their thoughts and emotions.
See, i don't doubt that it may work for whoever it may work for, it just didn't seem like it would help me at that time.
Personally, i believe that the process of rewiring the brain can be as simple as prescribing a tonal track for the patient to listen to with noise cancelling headphones at certain times of the day or as needed for symptom relief in the moment.
Unfortunately, the research is way behind any of my current theories based on my own personal experiences.
The human brain is a marvelous thing and i've been studying it all my life.
We truly are only just waking up as a species, overall...
yes, correct, temporary distraction, no permanent relief. @@Kate-rv1id
i’ve done EMDR with two different therapists. one didn’t help at all, and the other has been massively impactful in lessening the intensity of emotion around the traumatic events. i truly think it depends on the skill of the professional and their understanding of ptsd
Can you explain how you felt they were different?
I agree 100%. I was diagnosed with PTSD and have been to two different therapists that use EMDR. The first therapist I didn’t get much out of. The one I see now has had a profound impact on my life. I rarely, if ever, have flashbacks anymore. My daily anxiety has decreased and I now sleep all night without having nightmares. This therapy model may not work for everyone but the therapist that you choose is very important concerning your outcome.
@@zelloyello6303 hey i’m sorry i didn’t see your reply! the first therapist pushed me to do it before i was in a stable condition, and it caused me to be in extreme emotional distress for 6-7 days after the session and ultimately did not work. the second clinician had done more training, waited until i was more stable, prepped me for over a month before we started, and gave me lots of aftercare tips. it was way more impactful
I have master's level training in counseling, extensive trauma, and have painstaking mapped what it's like as well as the recovery. Most of the explanations of it are pseudoscientific. In my experience, here is what is happening:
Neurons that fire together, wire together. First, the patient is asked to think of a peaceful place and use somewhat of a guided imagery meditation to calm the nervous system. There is significant time spent engaging with this calm state while doing the bilateral stimulation. This becomes a conditioned stimulus, whereby the bilateral stimulation induces calm like Pavlov's bell made dogs salivate. Then, only after the calm state is paired with the bilateral stimulation, the patient is asked to recall the memories and emotional states related to the trauma. Afterwards, the patient is then asked to return to their calm mental place, again with the bilateral stimulation. The trauma is called up while engaging in eye movements followed by calling up the calm place while engaging in bilateral stimulation.
This is causing the calm state to collapse into the trauma by using the bilateral stimulation to link disparate neuron clusters. This leads to bringing a state-dependent sense of safety and calm into the state-dependent sense of threat.
This can be understood as using the way the brain responds to trauma, but in reverse. Just like someone who was assaulted by a person in a red shirt may later experience extreme fear at the sight of a red shirt, the brain can be brought to a state of associating safety and calm with previous trauma because the calm state is linked to the bilateral stimulation at the same time as it being linked to the trauma via operant conditioning. Because bilateral stimulation is such an unnaturally occurring stimulus, it is a blank experience that the therapist can use to effectively collapse the state-dependent sense of safety and calm with state-dependent sense of threat.
Having good operational definitions leads to higher quality research with repeatable results. The biggest flaw is that they don't really try to understand what is happening to optimize the effects. Too many of the assumptions of how it works are useless woo-woo explanations.
That makes way more sense to me. Thanks for the explanation.
Genuine question - what is a master's level in counselling?
TBH, the people that are skeptical of this are mostly not actors and not hypnotherapists. As with any other treatment for anything, people can get overenthusiastic and push it for things where it doesn't really work, but if you move your eyes like somebody that's panicked, you're going to think and act like you are because you're brain is going to see things that look like you're scanning around for things you'd see if you were in danger.
It's not that different from when I used to go to a bar and get myself "drunk" on virgin sprites. I wasn't technically drunk, but I was slurring my speech, getting headaches and having some muscle coordination issues. And due to the dehydration, I'd have a headache the next day. The brain is rather complicated.
Also, the science related to mental health in general is still in the dark ages. A lot of the "evidence" supported treatments are supported by low quality research anyways.
From what I understand, in medicine there's a surprising amount of treatments that are effective but nobody knows why. I guess research is aimed at finding a solution, but when a solution spontaneously presents itself, it's not deemed a good use of resources to discover the rationale behind it.
I like your theory of a Pavlovian response, but suspect it's not the whole story. During my sessions I'm not sure I ever really reached the state of calm that would form the association. I was mostly thinking "this is stupid" the entire time! Then, in following days, I experienced a really heavy fatigue unlike anything I'd had before. This was the case with each session. Something unusual was definitely going on in my body.
The brain is such a mysterious organ, Isn't it! I am very grateful for EMDR.
But counselling never helped me. It just meant I went over my issues and then I was told to think positively and reframe them. EMDR actually helped some of my problems. Counselling just gets people to try to think out side the box and that is about it. Maybe it could help with a current fresh trauma or drama.
I'm very sceptical in general, and despite my misgivings, i did a load of emdr sessions when they were offered to me to treat my ptsd. I approached it open-mindedly and sincerely gave it the benefit of the doubt. If others get benefit from it, then that's fantastic, but in my case, it felt like a profound waste of time and explicitly worse than just talking through my issues.
This is one of the reasons I'm scared of trauma therapy, I don't want to get all vulnerable and re hash all of that old shit for no reason other than some shitty experience where I ultimately feel taken advantage of for getting vulnerable for no reason
It could be placebo effect. I immediately pegged it as woo woo psuedoscience, but it seemed to have helped my partner with their cptsd.
It could be anything, placebo included. Who knows.
If something purports to be a cure-all, or general fixer, one is likely better off by being immediately skeptical.
@@Pensnmusicif it is a placebo I think certain personalities would be inherently resistant to it then. I, for example, am more neurotic and straightforward, and rapid eye movement does not seem necessary, so if I were to try it, I guarantee I would just feel silly and stupid the whole time, not to mention I would probably have a hard time focusing and would likely not process my trauma as well as a result.
Great that it worked for your wife, anything that helps is good, but the eye movement part as discussed in the video is just about useless no matter how you look at it.
Not every therapy is for everybody. I thought more or less the same thing about CBT, it was a complete and utter waste of my time and it was one of the few options that my health insurer was willing to cover because it was "evidence" based, never mind that CBT doesn't work well for people who can't follow through on the exercises or are already spending more time thinking about emotions rather than having them.
I'm a therapist who uses EMDR with clients, and even before I got trained, I was concerned about EMDRIA and how they hoard info. If this is so amazing, we should be makinlag it easier to learn, right? I got trained outside EMDRIA, and the first thing we were told is "EMDR is easy. Working with trauma is hard." I don't know how EMDRIA approaches learning about trauma, but I had EMDRIA-trained classmates who talked about inadvertantly retraumatizing clients. We spent the first half of the training learning about trauma, not EMDR.
I'd be curious to see more neurological studies on bilateral stimulation. My take on it is that our brain has a normal way of processing memories, but trauma blocks up that and prevents the memory going to long term storage. BLS provides enough distraction to let those deep processes do their thing. I don't know if BLS is necessary, but I'd be reluctant to say EMDR is "just" CBT and exposure therapy repackaged. It obviously includes those things, but it's more than that. I've done CETA, which combines CBT and exposure therapy, and I HATE it. It feels very harsh, and ignores the non-verbal ways trauma is experienced. There's something about the way the tapping (that's what I use) lets people get into their body and sidestep the prefrontal processes.
It's an intense experience, but it takes so many of the traditional therapeutic processes and puts them into overdrive. But it sure as hell isn't a cure-all, and it isn't for everyone.
Anyway, thanks for a good video, and doing so much research.
Agree 100% about the technique that allows one to "sidestep the prefrontal process". My idea is that the BLS is a kind of rhythmic self soothe, not unlike rocking or other kinds of stimming.
Re: The 'something' look up polyvagal theory and exercises.
The fact they are hoarding info is a red flag 🚩 to me.
You might look up neuroscientist Helen Meyberg's work on psychiatric conditions-and in particular her lab work on mental health depression. She has had some interesting findings with neural net stimulation that evidences that electromagnetic stimulation will cause the brain to find alternative pathways and ultimately receive relief for the disease. In other words, she has found that function is not confined to one brain region - such as a limbic-cortical pathway dysfunction-as originally thought.
I had an "EMDR" therapist certified by them and he refused to offer me any talk therapy during treatment. When that is what I will always need to feel attuned and safe with someone to process my trauma.
I had this done years ago. It saved my sanity and worked perfectly. Since getting it done, I’m able to remember the horrible car accident I was in as a DRAMA, or movie, as we remember our memories. Before EMDR, when I would think of it, I would be in the middle of it, experiencing TRAUMA all over again in my body and all the emotions with it!! IT ACTUALLY SWITCHED THE WAY I REMEMBERED THINGS.. when the therapist was asking me to close my eyes and then open them and close them again, I “saw” myself floating above the car, and I thought it wasn’t working! But then I realized what was going on! It was pulling me out of the middle of the accident . I used to be an emotional wreck when anyone would talk about the accident or if I would see an accident, etc. After the sessions, it became just a memory, instead of a triggering event. I had it done in 2000, 6 sessions with a therapist.
This is incredible! I have recently taken 6 sessions of EMDR over this past year and each session I focused on different traumatic events in childhood and adulthood. I then monitored myself for weeks in between sessions to see if the memory would trigger me - and I realized it didn't. It was exactly how you described! I felt that each of those events became processed stored memories that were now in the past! And not fully taking over my thoughts or body in the present anymore.
Whether or not EMDR is a placebo or not I don't care. I've done talk therapy, CBT, meditation, exercise, diet, medications - but this modality truly was the only thing that has lessened my PTSD symptoms. I intend on continuing to monitor as time passes as I don't know if it will be effective long term, but it sure has given me peace for the first time in my life.
it calms my insides in about 30 seconds or a minute...so effective... i never used it for therapy in the way you have, but your testimony is encouraging...thanks...i think this guy is wrong about emdr...
@intoxicanna Thanks for this comment. I am very glad you're getting help. It was pretty beneficial to me. As I posted higher up, I see EMDR as a concentration technique. It let me dislodge old wrong assumptions I had been holding on to for 40 plus years.
@@enka_4444 your description is my exact experience. My EMDR therapy was a number of years ago and in to my experience it’s still working. I am hopping yours is long term too.
Yes 100%. Same for me. I got EMDR therapy within the same week I was the victim of a house break in, violent assault and attempted murder. It was a total game changer. I see the incident as a movie. I watch myself in it but I’m not IN IT, when I recall the memories. You get it! And don’t you feel so blessed to be able to think back on the trauma without reliving it? It’s been twenty plus years for me and it’s holding strong. Have you also tried RRT rapid resolution therapy? So after 20 years, I would still have anxiety attacks during the time of year of the initial trauma or really any time I was triggered. (Not about the initial trauma. Just stress triggers in general that would cause me to have anxiety attacks. Never had any traumatic flashbacks EVER!!!) After doing just a few RRT sessions, I RARELY have anxiety or panic attacks. Pretty close to none at all!! I love EMDR, but RRT seems to work even faster and I don’t get exhausted afterwards. Bringing up those emotions can be very taxing on the body & soul, even though it’s helping to have less or no emotional charge afterwards. During RRT you don’t bring up the traumatic image or the associated emotions. And once the session is over, one feels completely relaxed & rested.
One thing I think is incredibly useful to take into account is how different brains process differently. At this point I truly don't think there can be one treatment for any mental health condition that applies to every type of brain; EMDR might be using cognitive reprocessing, but for someone like myself with PTSD who is also significantly autistic and ADHD, the original approaches for talk therapy or psychotherapy don't work and sometimes actually worsen my wellbeing through the effort. I'm overly fixated on (deemed) irrelevant details, I get distracted by what I'm "supposed" to be doing for reactions and expressions, and I can't stay on topic or relax enough to find benefit, and that's over a decade of experience with different professionals at different levels. With EMDR, it's essentially adding a stim I can structure directly into the process with added consistency. It's the exact same each time (mine is on a screen with a sound effect that plays rhythmically in headphones), and gives my brain an extra task letting me only juggle what I need to. My therapist is really good and maintains a solid, consistent experience where I know exactly what happens, what she asks, what's expected of me, etc.
The reason I say all of this is because autism and ADHD still have a long way to go in research, discovery and public education, and a lot of people go undiagnosed or misunderstand their own brains and needs. I fully believe it's possible that research would struggle at the gen pop level to figure out *who* this works for and why because the participants aren't being individualized enough, and in enough data. Obviously the other problems like wild claims, biased research, and bad practitioners taking advantage of it are factors and I don't discount those, but I'd love to see high quality research where consideration was paid to what aspects of EMDR are separately functional and why/who it applies to.
I find EMDR to be incredibly effective for my multifactored and complicated PTSD, but I don't think that has to mean that the traditional justifications for the practice are worth defending. I think the merits are instead misunderstood or incorrectly attributed, and I just hope we don't "toss the baby out with the bath water" (I may know how that phrase is used, but wow I hate it 🤢).
Yes, EMDR was developed as a therapy for PTSD, & since C-PTSD shares many symptoms with ADHD, it makes sense that there can be similar therapeutic effects.
I’m autistic too and use the eye movement as a stim. I think you’re right about using stims to help with trauma. I also have the same issues with traditional talk therapy. Hopefully in the near future we’ll see some studies incorporating stimming into various types of treatments :)
@@the.masked.one.studio4899 autistic researchers are out there right now paving the way for the therapies we actually need :) we need truly affirming care and that means stimming, and thankfully there's already neurodivergent practitioners out there like mine who understand what we need and reciprocate on our wavelength. i hope you find that!!
I'm also audhd and EMDR has been bizarrely helpful for me. I've been in talk therapy for almost two decades and it wasn't until my audhd diagnoses and emdr that I finally felt some actual relief. The distraction element is grounding in a way that just talking isnt.
I feel it was very helpful for me as well. I have autism, adhd, & c-ptsd. When doing talk therapy over the years I only found that the process made me more focused on different aspects of the events I was trying to process. It just encouraged my tangents & looping over the distress of the past events. However, EMDR helped me to focus and identify the emotions and physical reactions I experienced, as well as to incorporate the emotions and memories within the overarching experiences of my life. I found it very beneficial for me personally.
I heard about emdr therapy and immediately thought "woo woo"
But my partner has cptsd and anyone suffering from that knows how extreme and awful it can be. Resistant to treatment, too.
Emdr was the first thing we tried that seemed to help. I don't know why it helped. Maybe it just helped signal to the brain that they were safe, activating the parasympathetic nervous system.
Maybe it does something else.
Maybe it just changed the dynamic between patient and practitioner. I don't know. It was the first effective step to recovery for my partner. Anecdote. No proven causal method.
If nothing else has worked, the worst that can happen is it doesn't work and you lost some money. At least it's not dangerous fake medicine or something
It's for PTSD & C-PTSD
I completely empathised until your past sentence.
Us not seeing potential harm doesn't mean it's inocuous. In fact, I'd confidently state anything which is not in accordance with reality is inevitably harmful.
It may be dangerous.
@@tempestive1 Yes, sadly I have only heard of negative effects of this and told to avoid emdr, one person got stuck in a sort of fragmented hall of mirrors of their ptsd, trapped in the shards of their trauma
@@stealthwarrior5768I'm doing it in therapy, I had to be assigned a specific kind of therapy due to my extensive trauma history and my needs. We just did our first cycle of reprocessing. I was hit by a suv and the last didn't even get out. It really triggered me for a while. Thoughts that apparently it's OK for people to not be accountable and it's just ok with people to run over another person. ( she hit me and pushed me back several steps is all) she didn't stop at her stop sign, so don't make sense to me.
But I'm not worked up as much. Whether it's the eye movements or the process, idk. Maybe it's a safe space to experience the trauma again with support that's the help. Maybe it's an immersive way of feeling seen and heard. It doesn't seem magical. And it may be too early to tell. But I appreciate the process either way
My husband was abused for years by many men and in a lot of ways possible.
His thoughts were constantly on the past abuse and he would nightmare all through his sleep day and night.
My husband has gone through emdr now he has barely any thoughts of his abuse and no night mares.
He had his first set of sessions and he did amazing no past abuse thoughts and no nightmares but a few short years later he saw one of his abusers in the newspaper and he regressed back to constant thoughts and nightmares again.
He went back to the counsellor to go through emdr again.
It didn't work as quick as the first time but it worked again.
He had a trigger that caused the emdr results to regress but thankfully him going through emdr again he was able to overcome the constant thoughts and nightmares of his abused past as they all disappeared once again
God bless your husband and you
It may not be that he regressed, it just means there's another network of traumas that have not been processed yet. EMDR therapy can sometimes takes years to clear out big networks. Unfortunately it can be expensive over time so I understand how limiting it can be.
@@kjames1463
Self-administered EMDR is a great way to clear out triggers independently.
I had a therapist who did EMDR with me. I really didn't like it and don't think I got much, if anything, out of it. I hadn't ever heard of it before but she was resistant to doing anything else. I didn't know anything about EMDR and she didn't really explain it at all. So, I ended up just being confused. I did what she told me to do but after a while it just turned into me trying to figure out what she wanted me to say so that I could say that. After several months I finally insisted on doing something else and we did talk therapy instead, but she told me that in her experience people who wanted to do talk therapy didn't want to get better or make progress. She discharged me not too long afterward saying we'd accomplished everything we set out to do. I ended up with a different therapist and he never even mentioned EMDR which I was grateful for. He was a much better fit and I was able to deal with my anxiety in productive, actually helpful ways and was able to get a job and have been doing well ever since. From now on if I enter a therapist's office and they so much as mention EMDR I'm getting up and leaving immediately, and that has nothing to do with this video and everything to do with my experience with it. That therapist was actually a very nice older lady but she just wasn't helpful to me at all and wasn't interested in doing things I did think would be helpful because she was totally sold on EMDR.
I too did EMDR with a very nice old lady and found myself doing the exact same thing. Wild! Glad you feel better and found something that works for you.
@@seinfields Thanks! I hope you did, too. 🙂
Even regular talk therapy, I can feel like I need to say xyz and tell them what they want to hear
@@HillbillyYEEHAA That may be your experience but has never been mine.
I have CPTSD and had tried EMDR therapy after hearing how effective it is to treat trauma. It did nothing for me. I thought there was something wrong with me. I’m so relieved to find this video! This whole time I thought that EMDR was an undisputed, proven treatment. I feel relieved. Thank you!
There is no treatment that is going to work for everyone. No bulletproof medication or method. Emdr worked for me, didn’t work for you. I think it’s a valid form of therapy to try as long as patients are made aware of its limitations and possibility that its just a placebo effect or just a type of exposure therapy
C-PTSD here too, it didn't help me at all after I was SA'd in university. If anything it made things worse since it frustrated me beyond my already surpassed threshold and I started pounding Bacardi. Trauma processing therapy both 1 on 1 and an intensive group in conjunction with 1 on 1 about a year into therapy did help, although it took about 6 months before I could really start to trust in my therapist.
That's pretty much all treatments, they work for some and not for others. Given the crisis of misdiagnosis, that shouldn't be surprising.
It all depends on the individual and having the right therapist. I found it to be very helpful.
@@SmallSpoonBrigademisdiagnosis of PTSD?
This was super informative but I kept waiting for you to mention cases where people responded negatively to the treatment, and I wish you had because I'm sure I'm not alone.
I tried it when I was 20, I had suffered from SA at 16 and gone to a regular talk therapist for 4 years that helped a little, but I couldn't move past the trauma, it was debilitating.
Then my mom heard about this miracle cure for PTSD called EMDR. At the time I was so desperate for help, I barely did any research and just went for it, at an extremely vulnerable state.
It was horrible. The little bit of clarity I had managed through regular talk therapy was shattered. I came out of every EMDR session feeling extremely suicidal and and dissociating (I did about 6 sessions).
I don't know what training she had, but we didn't go through the 8 steps you talked about, we pretty much only did the desensitization where she had me relive the trauma through all the senses: what did I see during the assault, what did it smell like, what sounds etc.
I'm not a professional at all but I'm pretty sure nothing good can come out of reliving a traumatic experience so vividly, especially without first establishing trust between client-therapist, without giving the client any tools to manage their suicidal tendencies... I mean that's the whole reason I went in the first place.
Years later I finally decided to get on medication and went to see a psychiatrist who'd never heard of EMDR and was appalled by the way I described my experience with it.
I'm happy for the people who found comfort through EMDR. Whatever works! But if you feel your experience was negative and you feel hopeless for feeling worse after getting the treatment that seems to be miraculous for everybody else, please don't despair. You're not alone and I love you
That sounds horrendous! I'm so sorry!
EMDR is a hypnotic technique (Shapiro copied the technique from a Dr Barbara Goldenberg who was using bilateral stimulation as early as 1967. Shapiro also wanted to distance "her" technique from hypnosis). However EMDR lacks the flexibility of hypnosis and therefore can be a more brutal instrument. A great therapist will spend more time in preparation than treatment with trauma clients. Additionally there are certain hypnotic techniques that permit the processing of trauma in the subconscious without the conscious mind ever needing to know or re-experience the trauma. I'm sorry for your bad experience.
I used to leave talk therapy feeling suicidal. Thank you for your testimony. I'm sorry you had to go through your dreadful esperiences.
I personnaly feel like being pushed to forget a traumatic experience as fast as possible would not work, and that's pretty much what EMDR sounds like. When the process was described in the video and he mentionned being asked repeatedly to rate the negativity of the thought, it stressed me to imagine being in this position. It looks similar to some tactics used to break someone to manipulate them and take control of their mind. I hate toxic positivity so much. People should be allowed time to grieve and be supported with compassion instead of being rushed to forget, because it's inconvenient to others. I'm really sorry you had to go thru that 😥 it sounds horrible
Studies and neuroscience are showing that EMDR, without proper safety baselines established in the patient's nervous system can be difficult or unhelpful. When doing FLOW EMDR to establish the safety baselines in the nervous system and neural pathways and then doing targeted EMDR is a much more productive form of this therapy.
I was treated by a therapist using EMDR about 10 years ago. It helped me tremendously.
As someone diagnosed with PTSD - I think it might depend on the source of the trauma. In my case, the trauma came from being around people and in environments where my self expression was blocked, and I was expected to be people's punching bag and guinea pig for experiments. So EMDR didn't do anything for me. What did help, was ending all relationships, including those with therapists, who did not believe in what I wanted for my life and who I wanted to be, and I put myself in places and amongst people where my self expression and authenticity is welcomed. Sometimes the best treatment is knowing who you are and what that needs to be supported. I have upset a lot of therapists with this concept and that is concerning.
agree w/ you
I did EMDR. It helped, but then I realized just bringing up traumatic memories and thoughts and thinking about it until I calmed down helped just as much without moving my eyes.
How do you go about figuring out if it was EMDR or something else which helped you?
As climate change increases in severity, there are less and less pirates. Does that mean climate change kills off pirates?
@@tempestive1 oh, there's still a lot of pirates. They're just on the internet.
@@tempestive1what they did sounds just like exposure.
@@MomoSimone22 But isn't exposure therapy NOT recommended for PTSD? I'd heard that exposure often REINFORCES ptsd. That seems consistent with my own experience.
Exposure therapies can be great for PTSD if they're done properly by an experienced professional. It's one of the recommended therapies listed by all the major psychological associations
As someone who benefited from EMDR, I'm sort of surprised that the explanation of why it works seems so different from how it was explained to me by my psychologist. They were pretty open about the fact that the light-bar was just a method, but the important part was the distraction. They told me they sometimes do the therapy with just finger movement, but that there are also therapists who shove a Tetris cartridge in a patients hand and have them work through it that way.
HOW do you go about making sure it was EMDR which helped you, and not aspects of it transversal to other therapeutic techniques?
Like verbalising your issues, for example?
@@tempestive1 i havent done emdr yet but i think i cant guess based on why they are presenting it to me as if its the only option. it's because we have tried verbalizing our issues, i dont mean to be rude but that has to be obvious. a lot of people are given emdr as a sort of final and absolute treatment for severe trauma. thats what i was told when they said they think i should try that next. i have done extensive exposure therapy and many many hospital visits, tried every sort of medication they threw at me for years, and so after all of that didnt work, i have been given a reccomendation to do emdr. to be honest, this was a few years ago. and i was so disenheartened by being told i essentially am running out of options that i just didnt pursue it. but i actually think i will based off the comments on this video from ppl who benefit. it could not possibly make me worse
Same. My EMDR sessions began with finger movement that I was supposed to follow with my eyes, but I found this a little uncomfortable. After a while we switched to alternatively tapping on my hands with soft mallets. It was just distracting enough to reduce the intense discomfort of (what was essentially) exposure therapy.
thats how tiktok videos work. they usually tell a story but hide a subliminal message by distracting you with a satisfying video, or subway surfer
@@smolbodybuilder1602 yeah. The whole "hiding subliminal messages" thing has been overblown, but this is a real function of our brains that can be hijacked for one purpose or another. Supposedly, keeping a part of your brain distracted by chewing gum or whatever can help the rest of your brain focus more easily on reading. I'd guess that this is why I feel the need to pace on the phone.
My mom was diagnosed with severe PTSD after a violent car accident she was subjected to. On top of that, she had a previous diagnosis of CPTSD from years of intimate partner violence. She went through years of therapy before one of her psychiatrists suggested EMDR. We talked about it a lot afterwards because I was diagnosed with CPTSD as well and it had a huge beneficial impact on her. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but I'm grateful for how helpful it was in her recovery.
I have ADHD (but not PTSD) and my therapist and I sometimes do very brief EMDR sessions. Sometimes when we’re talking about something upsetting, he’ll ask me to recall a positive memory, like thrift shopping for ugly sweaters with a friend. He’ll then ask me to recall details from those positive experiences while we do the eye movements, rinse and repeat for 2-3 times. Idk how scientific it is, but it is helpful to focus in on positive memories and I do think I can recall them better afterwards. It’s also slightly silly which I think additionally fosters a positive experience. I don’t think any of that necessarily has to do with the eye movements and/or bilateral stimulation but I thought I’d share my experience for anyone who’s interested since it seems different than a lot of people’s. Healthy and happy wishes to y’all
N. N
😊😊
I had a psychologist (psy-d) label me as difficult and framing my entire life in rebellion against authority because on a pretreatment survey question ("is there anything else I should know?") I listed that I'm not interested in EMDR because I'm skeptical of it. It was beyond bizarre and, shockingly, that therapist and I didn't work out.
Therapeutic gaslighting: when therapy becomes religion
Psyd vs PhD behaviour
Yes!! So sorry that happened! Authoritarian Personalities like to project blame!
(I really hope you're okay, and have made strides on your own too. 🤝💦🌱)
@@morg1328that’s a silly comment. A PhD can be in anything, PsyD is purely born of years of training in psychology. They’re both extremely academic, and if doubt you’d be able to pick one from the other to be quite honest with you
That is such a crazy thing to have happen… I wonder if you don’t also have a diagnosis that he’s underpinned his suspicions with…. we all know there are some labels that can seriously cloud therapists minds and leave them blaming the client
What annoys me most is that i was in training back in 2008 i was in a trauma lab doing research on pseudoscience. The evidence is still the same nearly 15 years later and EMDR had only gotten more widespread. They rope in mostly masters level therapists in to an expensive training because they haven't had a extensive training in research and evidence based practice. I know because i transferred from a university phd program to a small masters level lpc program. I realized i preferred community based therapy and didn't want to continue my insanely expensive phd program for many reasons. The difference in training was really really noticable - in my masters program there was very little actual research read. Very little emphasis on why something was effective or ineffective. We had a few people come present on therapies that were pseudoscience -a hypnotherapist talking about energy meridians comes to mind. I loved my program and they did much better at focusing on the therapeutic relationship, but the science was definitely an afterthought. The worst part was that it produced therapists who can't read research or discern things like bias or confounding variables, nor did they get much training on how to treat ptsd effectively. I am not surprised given the state of mental health therapy cash grabs right now, but I'm definitely disappointed. There are definitely components of EMDR that are effective, and you do not need to waste time and money on EMDR to get trained in the effective part. Therapist need to be better trained in treating trauma and ptsd, and i hate that emdr fills that space up instead of more effective trainings.
Energy Meridians actually has a lot of research done on them in Traditional Eastern Medicine. There is a reason why Yoga is so effective in treating trauma. As well as acupuncture. Meditation and Taichi. All of these practices affect the limbic system and the somatic system. This is why mindfulness is blowing up in popularity. TEM takes a more holistic approach to healing. Although it has it's own shares of people in it for the money.
Your bias is showing. Perhaps back in 2008, programs didn't prioritize multiculturalism or cultural humility, leading to a lack of awareness about the popularity of energy medians in Eastern practices. Just as Native Americans consult medicine men and indigenous Mexicans seek guidance from curanderas, non-Western practices aren't automatically pseudoscience. The issue lies in the prevalence of dismissive attitudes among many white therapists towards practices and beliefs beyond their cultural scope. While they may not be "evidence based" these practices stil hold cultural significance to many groups, thus important for therapists to learn about them rather than dismiss them. Agreed, the insufficient training for PTSD and trauma is unfortunate. Therapists must individually pursue additional training and supervision to bridge knowledge gaps. Sadly, the field's compensation falls far short of covering the extensive education, testing, supervision, and ongoing CEUs needed to stay abreast of the latest research. Certainly not an excuse; any worthwhile therapist should ensure they tailor evidence-based modalities to meet the cultural needs and goals of their clients. At the end of the day, I have seen EMDR works for some and not for others. And regarding research skills, my program absolutely covered this extensively. It's a necessary skill to have, and from my understanding it's a part if all CACREP programs.
I'm currently studying a Master of Clinical Psychology in Australia, and there is a lot of emphasis on evidence based practice. We even had a unit dedicated to understanding research methodology and the findings from studies, etc. I completed a PhD in Clinical Psychology before taking on the Masters, and actually found this unit in the Masters really well delivered and would make anyone sufficiently skeptical about what the research tells us and being mindful of bias.
I know you're getting some push back from people who disagree with you, but I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm not a therapist, but I studied to become a Neuroscientist, and I remember the long hours I had to spend learning how to read and understand scientific papers. It was very difficult, but has proven to be an extremely valuable life skill. I feel like all medical professionals, including licensed therapists, should be given some training in this. Regardless of personal or cultural beliefs or practices, it's an essential skill for providing good care.
@@ItsRuthieMicaela You can't conflate New Age appropriation of ancient practices with an ancient practice. The yoga practiced at my local YMCA has different elements than yoga practiced as a religious discipline in India.
Likewise there are people who talk about energy lines removed from their cultural context.
There's also a lot of diet plans that take some kernel of actual science, like blood type, and make up a lot of presumptions about what that means and what you can do with that kernel of information.
That doesn't mean they aren't still observing patterns on some intuitive level, but it can help to do further study to better understand what are the effective aspects. Or if it's just placebo effect, or even a scam artist looking for a quick buck.
I found the YMCA yoga very helpful. But that's different from breaking down the science of why yoga can help the mind or body. It does not reduce the long history of developing the practice. It's about understanding on a deeper level what works and why.
Even the most hardened western scientist should recognize the body does utilize energy and electrical signals. Studying existing practices through the lens of science is not necessarily about debunking them, but trying to understand them on a deeper level.
Sometimes the research reaffirms a practice or at least elements of it.
I see the health benefits of yoga stretching and breathing. However from my own religious beliefs, I see danger elements when an instructor starts talking about the third eye or when meditation or chanting is used to spiritually open rather than focus.
Science isn't going to resolve religious debates, but it can help settle questions regarding the physical health benefits of certain practices.
Psychology is tricky to study because it sits on a border between neuroscience and philosophy. But there are patterns than can be recognized.
I remember learning about EMDR in a psychology class and the instructor was literally like "yeah no one knows why this works but it does really seem to so we use it".
I later did get emdr treatment myself and I do feel like it helped.
My mom did it and she felt that it was cathartic because it made her cry a lot. I did it and it felt the exact same as talking about the things I was talking about WITHOUT the EMDR element. Exactly the same.
She has lots of traumas that she can't remember whereas I remember everything. She feels like the EMDR is tapping into some secret part of her that's traumatized and maybe it is but maybe she also is overwhelmed by trying to reach those parts of herself so she cries a lot and then this creates the perception (real or not) that catharsis occurred.
One of my therapists had gone through a couple levels of training but didn't buy in to it being a miracle therapy. Her take was that the movements and stimulation helped keep patients from dissociation but also provided just enough of a distraction to keep them from fixating on the issue being discussed. My current therapist drew the same conclusion from reading all the studies. If I'm having a rough time working through something with lots of big emotions, I'll play video games (nothing that takes a lot of brain power) while we talk. The game provides just enough distraction to keep me from being overwhelmed by the feelings but not so much that I can't carry on a conversation. I'm also less likely to overthink my responses.
I agree. I did it with tappers. them buzzing back and forth in my hands was enough of a distraction to avoid emotionally spiraling when recalling the triggering memory. I guess i could see someone explain that buzzing sensation as grounding me in the present or something. But to me if felt more like a wee distraction to take the edge off
That's just it though, the distractions will only make any healing take longer. You have to be able to connect with your body to feel the sensations (emotions, resistance) when you get a "trigger/activation" by someone or an event. That trigger is the opening, opportunity, invitation to heal past traumas and programmings. You have to let it come to the surface, let it do what it needs to do organically so it can be released (in the end it's just energy stored in the body/system). The release can be short or long, depending on your resistance. Once you let go of resistance and the stored energy starts to dissipate, the release can take form in various ways like shaking, sweating, laughing, crying, burping, yawning, releasing gas, laughing, etc or even getting clarity, new insights a deeper knowledge. There's no quick fix, healing takes as long as it needs and as longer when you resist or are in distractions. It can be a life journey and it is a journey of processes that are not linear and you do not control. Healing is about letting go of control. No one can heal you but you, every situation or person are only there to help the healing process by acting as a mirror. Try Irene Lyon's channel for information and modalities on healing trauma through the nervous system. I've tried a lot of different therapies and therapists, only a few helped to an extent. It wasn't until I was determined to heal and let go of all the old baggage and I took charge of my own healing process that the healing truly began. I wish you all the best in your healing journey when you ate ready to start the process. It is transformational. ❤🦋🙏🏽
@sandtx4913 It might do so, but in a case of an overwhelming trauma memory a slight distraction and a slight increase in processing it might be preferable to dissociation or the client drowning in an overpowering emotional response.
The video games is such a great idea. Thank you for sharing!
That's a great idea. I've experienced recently it was much easier for me to talk about a topic, that would be usually quite sensitive and uncomfortable, while I was driving. That little bit of distraction and resulting minimal eye contact made it easier to keep the conversation calm and avoid escalation and emotional overwhelm.
I had a horrible experience with an EDMR therapist. She just left me hanging didnt get me more help and got angry at me for responding with panic.
I had one who came on to me in a strange, whiny way
So, thats the therapist not the method
Gosh that would be so horrid. I feel for you 😢
Sounds like that therapist was a quack. EMDR needs to be handled by well trained experts to get it to work correctly
It is truly amazing how many harmful therapists are out there. It affects a person …
This happened to me as well in 1998 when I was in my early 20s. Sibce then, I've been reluctant to try it again.
I was in jail in Costa Rica and the country sent me a psychologist and also sent me to an office of a Dr, phycotherapist. I was in jail in a foreign country... I was a victim of domestic violence, and they thought I needed help, as an innocent person. I was under alot if stress. This female doctor was Dutch and had trained in this. She told me she was going to try something and if I would be willing to try it. I like her vibe and I was stressed so I let her. She did some face tapping and my whole body calmed down right away. She did some more body tapping, just a tiny bit, and just a little eye movement stuff. It helped me a lot. She taught me how to tap my own face in case I was getting stir crazy in confinement. It really helped. I won my case and now I'm free. I like alternative health stuff because I don't like prescription drugs because my father was over prescribed and died from it. So I support the technique, but I don't know how I feel about the training and things.
also, how nice that someone believed you. And was supportive and wanted to help. We have to remember modern medicine is good, but it is also the third leading cause of death. Medical mistakes (google it). Infections are rampant in. hospitals. Nurses overworked. Reporting of deaths relating to medical mistakes spotty. Over prescribing of drugs, lead to the opiod crisis, with pharmacies pushing doctors to prescribe. Even the machines for people who "snore" while sleeping, one day no one had them and in a few years, almost every person over 50 had one! SOME people need this but for most treatment for an allergy, or even sleeping on sheets that keep dust mites down, does more good.
I was told to take EMDR therapy, but something about the idea made me incredibly uncomfortable so I refused. My family has often held this over my head saying that I was choosing not to get better. This video has made me feel much better about my decision, thank you.
You definitely took the right decision
trust your instincts. always.
I’m the same, something told me not to have it. I’m glad I didn’t.
Whatever works for you is fine. No one should give you trouble over your decision. For me, EMDR helped.
I always had an eerie feeling about it too. The fact that your family was pushing you to get it and blamed you for not wanting to get better is vile. It feels like it's an inconvenience for them that you are suffering and they cannot hold space for you, so they put the burden on you altogether. 😢
I have CPTSD and EMDR is changing my life! I've heard others in my cptsd support groups didn't get on with emdr though. I believe the therapist plays a big part in whether a therapy will be successful or not, and I'm lucky to have an incredible emdr therapist. ❤
I agree you need the right therapist. People are all individuals and might need more than one technique or therapy.
Same 🥰
It's so wonderful that you've found a treatment that helps you!
You touch on something very important with your experience, which is also supported by research: the quality of the relationship between therapist and client is a very strong predictor of improvement. Wish you the best moving forward!
It's definitely placebo, but if it works its medicine
How many treatments did it take for you?
For the coals fire walk mention around 34 minutes, I think it's worth pointing out that coal walking is a bit of misnomer. People are actually walking on the ash from the coals. Ash, being a poor conductor, would take more than just a moment for the heat to transfer and burn you, but in standing still you definitely would be burned. When people coal walk they are not walking on the coals directly. Anyway this sort of trick is a common ploy and worth mentioning.
Wasn't there an incident recently with one of these quacks where some people had their feet burnt firewalking? It surprises me that people are so easily led and manipulated by these conmen.
To me, it feels like the oldest trick in the book. It feels like a carnival sideshow that would've fooled people in the 1800s, I'm surprised that more people don't know about it at this point.
People have been burned, to the point that they were taken away in an ambulance.
my last therapist had me try emdr. it brought back a lot of stuff that i had forgotten. i just went in to get help with managing adhd, not unbury the traumas that didn't need to be excavated. before that i was doing okay mentally, and afterwards, i was not okay at all
While doing emdr therapy did help me uncover traumatic memories i'd repressed, i think it was more down to the therapist being a grandpa type man who believed me about my abuse when my whole family had always insisted i was a crazy liar who must have wanted to be molested for the attention. My practitioner was very frank with me that emdr doesnt work for everyone, can make some people's trauma symptoms worse, and is really only effective on people who can be hypnotised/are vulnerable to suggestion.
EMDR helped me so much with my PTSD
My brain learned to sort itself out
I still get triggered but my brain will sort me out
It may take a few days but I can feel it happen.
I was given almost ten weeks preparation, where I was taught coping strategies to help when they had to leave me hanging. An appointment is an hour long and they can’t always get you through what comes up in that time.
I was then given around 12 weeks EMDR therapy by a mental health nurse. It was amazing and I couldn’t believe what she enabled my brain to do. Such a strange and powerful journey.
By the end she had not only addressed the situation that had triggered my PTSD but also what my brain could do when I encountered new triggering situations.
It felt like my brain learned skills to sort out trauma.
The most amazing thing as this was all provided by the amazing NHS. Britains jewel in the crown. If we don’t look after the NHS we will lose our most precious resource.
This was in around 2018
PS it is short therapy when it sorts out the problem so you don’t need to go back and have more therapy. 22 weeks EMDR was fast acting after years of ineffective CBT.
I'm glad you found some peace. EMDR and CBT amounted to billable hours for me.
I find it very helpful, also - this video is disappointing
@@gracie7672the video is looking at the scientific evidence, which is very important. It would be biased of him to ignore it.
Or was it a placebo effect?
It didn’t help me at all
I'd love to see a factual breakdown of 12 steps programs for healing addiction. I feel like vulnerable and desperate people get misled by countless centers who all sound like they are unique but in reality they are all using one, antiquated program that has years of evidence that it is failing roughly 92% on a consistent basis since 1939, but still everyone talks and acts like it is a solution for the "disease" of addiction. I couldn't believe what was going on when I realized the truth and I can't understand how it is allowed to continue.
Yes and I am an addict, been abstinence for 3 years. The things I've learned since getting sober are hard to sallow to say the least.
@@amandasilcox3521can you tell me some? I’m trying to get clean too and failing hard.
NA helped me. Massively.
AA is like a cult you’re not allowed to criticize. Or rather a full-on orthodoxy in a theocracy. It does work for some people but it’s not the Holy Grail.
Assuming your numbers are correct, what is the equivalent to the 92% failure rate. What percentage of addicts relapse without 12 step programs?
I tried them, and they didn't work for me, but I'm not one for sharing my intimate life with a group in a circle.
It's all relative. Also, no disrespect, I highly doubt that there is a 92% relapse rate for people that work the 12 step program.
I don't even think the rate is that high for cigarettes smokers who relapse and they do so more often than anyone else.
When I was trained in it, the biggest red flag for me was when we were told about "processing the trauma of your own birth" and told stories about people who spontaneously recalled their own births in vivid detail. I call BS, lost me right there. It was probably 15 years ago when that happened.
I clicked this video precisely because it sounded like a topic I had never heard of among the random CZcams recommendations. Fascinating.
EMDR kind of sounds like a kind of gentle exposure therapy to me.
Pretty accurate in my experience.
That's how I have found it.
Sometimes i feel like we know nothing about how to treat mental illness
It's not nothing, but it's just not a one size fits all type thing, just like medications for a physical health issue. Everyone responds differently, so that's why there are options.
It's a relatively new field compared to other areas of medicine. But we have learned a lot, there's likely far more to go.
The problem is the concept of mental illness and medicalization of human suffering. The medical model is flawed, the concept of mental illness is flawed and inevitably treatments are going to be flawed. Psychiatry and the medical model should go and be replaced with a social model of mental health.
That's true. Just some people like to pretend they actually know and they're better than any other.
@@Knightgil Absolutely, completely agree with you. Instead the field is going the other way, trying to RCT things, leading the pitiful concept of "CBT" as one of the only recommended "fixes".
Thank you for this. As a retired psychiatrist I thought many of the things you covered and was relieved to feel I was not alone. It was also great to learn more. One thing you didn't mention but which bothered me, probably early in its 'life', was the preponderance of positive studies being performed by the same cohort of researchers including Shapiro herself. It felt a little bit like a large ad campaign especially when coupled with the strict requirements that training could only be given by a small selection of devotees.
Hopefully you are equally critical with the many, many problematic studies done by pharmaceutical companies re: the drugs you surely prescribed, right? Sincerely, another prescribing clinician.
What about the polar bears?
With all due respect, Psychiatry has a record that is as problematic and has caused significant damage.
@@isocarboxazidyou are a rarity among prescribing clinicians, and you're probably well-aware of that by now.
About thirteen years ago I was enduring a traumatic event in my life and a friend of mine, a doctorate psychologist trained in EMDR, advised me to seek a therapist in my state who practices EMDR. I don’t recall it did much of anything for me. After the EMDR I was still in crisis. It was still traumatic. The stakes were high: my mental & physical health were both under threat. Resolving the issue at hand was what it ultimately took to bring me the relief I needed, and restore my sanity. Deep down I knew that all along. It was my friend’s recommendation that prompted me to try EMDR, and take all these expensive supplements to help “balance my brain chemistry”. Hogwash. My brain is just fine, thank you. I just needed the damn issue resolved.
Ironically, though many practitioners avoid us heavily dissociative clients, I find that any talk therapy has been almost completely ineffective, unlike EMDR. It's hard to treat cptsd with talk therapy, if you have no clue WHAT the trauma actually is, if it's hard to even form words about it. But emdr has had some efficacy, though it's definitely not a short therapy with my issues, not by a long shot, more like years long, with other methods between the emdr sessions, stabilising daily life.
I was wondering about it with CPTSD, as I've tried therapies designed for PTSD that made my CPTSD worse and caused me to develop new fears and trauma that I didn't even have before. It's really turned me off of trying therapies because I can't afford to be even more disabled than I am now.
Talk therapy was also useless for me especially as someone who struggles even knowing what to say. With emdr it allowed me to just sit and observe my thoughts and memories and feelings without feeling pressured to “tell a story”. My therapist would just ask simple questions about what I was experiencing. I was getting nowhere in my therapy until we started doing the emdr
Keep pushing brother you will make it
@@TheAwesomes2104give it a shot brother I have cptsd from small t's and it works like a charm. Ot takes time though but it works .
EMDR is literally the only thing that’s ever helped me. Talking did nothing for me either
22 years ago I did the old school PTSD immersion therapy and it was so effective. It was hard but well worth it. You repeat a traumatic memory for 45 min while the therapist records it. You then listen to the tape every morning and evening, then go back the next week and do it again. Its an 8 to 12 week process. My PTSD symptoms were so bad before, sometimes crippling. This immersion therapy caused my symptoms to dramatically drop around week 7. I know people who have suffered from PTSD for decades and its sad because there is an effective treatment.
Sounds aweful. Studies show repeating the trauma over and over worsens the trauma.
Some places still do it. I did in an inpatient setting while in the military. It should be done inpatient in my opinion
@@stealthwarrior5768studies show that exposure therapy is effective- that it is the MOST effective treatment we have. flooding (the more extreme version of this therapy) saved my life.
you’re not re-experiencing the trauma, you’re re-contextualizing the experience. if you subject yourself to the stimuli you’ve become afraid of, you relearn that these things are safe.
what this person’s therapist was doing has a similar effect.
@Ohfukmoment had the opposite effect with me. Giving that therapist the flick and finding someone that didn't retraumatise me was my solution. I guess one mordality doesn't fit all.
That sounds like a recipe for dissociation.
After my first EMDR session I remember thinking "what was this supposed to do?"... Oddly, when my therapist asked me about the negative feelings connected to a certain memory, they were gone. I remember feeling as if someone had pulled a trick on me. Feelings that had persisted over two decades... How could they be gone? I still remembered the event and I also remember feeling terribly about it, but the feeling itself, that was just... Gone.
After a few sessions, I felt ready to take on life again. A big burden had indeed been taken off my shoulders. I never believed it would work, yet it did. Almost two decades later, the effect is still there. In my personal experience, it's nothing short of a miracle, and I don't generally believe in miracles.
Having said all that... EMDR most certainly isn't a cure all. In people and situations that may seem very similar, results can vary from curative to disastrous.
Key is to have a therapist that is very well trained, not just in performing a technique (that's the easy part), but in constantly checking in to see if the therapy is having it's desired effect. An EMDR therapist should be trained in many different techniques.
PTSD patients may for example go through reliving their trauma on a deeper level and go into a dissociative state. EMDR itself isn't suitable to help someone in that situation. A licensed and well trained psychologist or psychiatrist should know how to handle such a situation. Sadly, there are also people who claim to be EMDR therapists, who don't know much more than to perform a trick, that will work for some people, but will seriously harm others.
A friend of mine who has CPTSD was told "she didn't try hard enough" and that's why EMDR didn't work for her. That's complete nonsense and gaslighting. Luckily she's a very strong person and she found different help that actually improved her situation. I don't want to think of what would have happened to her if she had listened to that EMDR therapist. She would have been off much worse.
In conclusion: EMDR may effectively relieve suffering caused by trauma, if performed by a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist who is well versed in other techniques and doesn't blindly trust in EMDR as a cure all. It's not effective for everyone and that is never the patients fault.
I am a first responder who suffered with PTSI. I first learned of EMDR reading Bessel Van der Kolk’s book, ‘The Body Keeps the Score.’ If it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me, and I credit EMDR with saving my life.
I'm a huge skeptic and very science based. Hypnosis, chiropractors, homeopathics, new age stuff, etc; all that stuff is silly to me. So I remember hearing about EMDR and laughing. But I also have tourettes. Then I discovered coincidentally that moving my eyes back and forth had a significant effect on my tics. Then I remembered about EMDR. I spoke with an emdr therapist out of curiosity and she claimed it was was helping integrate the R+L hemispheres of my brain so they could communicate more effectively (and that if this is done while reprocessing memories, you can relearn how you/your brain reacts to it). She offered me a free session. It was only 20 minutes but I literally laughed out loud at how effective it was for me. I paid for 5 more sessions after that. But I haven't a soul besides my mom... Because it still sounds ridiculous (even though it helps me so much lol). Everyday I do a few minutes of it at home myself now. But I understand the controversy 1000%!
I’m so glad it helped you :)
I’ve found some movements like that really do help. Kind of like dancing off bad energy helps. A very physical and grounded way to process emotion.
You got placebo'd congrats.
Brains are funny things!
My take: Maybe it's placebo. Maybe it's actually doing something. But the placebo effect is also pretty damn remarkable. And if it helps you, more power to you.
I'm thinking also -- I do the same for a minute or two when I'm really tired during the day. (Close my eyes for a bit and move them side to side.) I never thought of it as EMDR but I find it quite refreshing... assume it's because I am mimicking REM or something.
Not all chiropractors are woo pushers. I had a great one as a teen, who focused entirely on my spine, and not at all on brain viruses detectable through x-ray, or any ot that nonense outside of their pervue.
Most are poo, though. But the same can be said of people in general. He was less full of it than any other doctor I've ever been too, which I know is so sad.
@@qwerty-dm8grI mean if a placebo works then it works. It doesn’t mean the tics were fake. It doesn’t mean the ptsd is fake. If we can “trick” the brain into healing then we should have it in our toolbox of things to try.
I'm leaving a super long comment (sorry not sorry) because I have thoughts, having been formally certified in emdr (paid just about what you said) but not ever really practicing it beyond the training process and shortly after while I still had an emdr-trained supervisor. First off this is a fantastic video, thank you for the very constructive work here, very aesthetically pleasing too, I watched the whole thing and enjoyed it a lot. I was trained in emdr around the time of graduating my msw program because I heard about it through a professor who was trained and was a regional trainer in emdr. I was just like, oh o.k. that sounds like an interesting premise for a treatment modality, and I want to gain some extra skills before graduating.
Mostly for me, the "suds score" aspect of emdr was what bothered me the most. Even though I think there are valid times to use numerical ratings in therapy, I don't like how ingrained and regular it seemed to me to be in emdr, and I always felt like the client must be experiencing pressure to tell the therapist that the suds score is going down. I think regular talk therapy (which I do as a practitioner) already has the risk of patronizing or alienating clients with overly formal approaches, but I really got this feeling more prominently with emdr, like I could end up feeling like I was inviting the client into a sort of therapeutic game rather than just engaging with them where they're at.
I think that there's some significant amount of placebo effect in the bilateral stimulation, but I will say that to me the best thing about the bilateral stimulation in emdr is the way it brings extended pauses and silence (for like 30 seconds or so on average, iirc) into a therapy session in a way that can be very helpful. It can be basically impossible to pause for so long in a normal talk therapy session, but pauses like that can help clients access feelings.
I'll also say, for what it's worth, during the training I did (3 8-hour days one weekend and then 3 more a month later, with some consultation in between and after), at one point we did the treatment modality with each other as clients, and I was in a kind of stubborn or bored mood or something, so I used "I don't have anything to talk about really" or something like that as my 'initial problem' and... I ended up crying. Not usually one to cry a lot, and like I wasn't manipulated or anything, trust me on that, I just accessed emotions pretty quick on that occasion. Not that I think this happens all the time obviously, it doesn't happen all the time and certainly wouldn't happen for me all the time. It just gave me that personal confidence that the modality can be effective. Still that wasn't enough to make me want to seek an emdr supervisor so I could practice it.
The context of emdr coming on the scene only 7 years after ptsd is a diagnosis in the dsm was a great point. I never knew francine's history, being in tony robbins's sphere and being involved in nlp. I definitely think the origin story or francine's park walk is right to be seen as a kooky thing that's been formalized in non kooky ways and can therefore be practiced in either kooky or non kooky ways depending on the practitioner. And hey maybe some people also want kooky things and that's valid, but marketing is what can make it a problem, as this video covers very well.
Despite the messed up ways she marketed and avoided criticism on her development of her theory, I always just intuitively related to francine's experience in that origin story in that I'll have experiences of my senses and then draw deeper conclusions from those experiences, or my reflections on those experiences. But I guess that's a very different thing from trying to market such a theory. I'm glad I dipped my toes in it, but after watching this video extremely glad I didn't pursue the modality. Glad you cover that emdr is an effective treatment though despite its origin, that's an important aspect of the story. O.K. I'm done, thanks again.
I think the suds score is helpful if the patient doesn't feel pressured, if the patient feels pressured there should be room for adaptation, I say this as someone that has experience with EMDR therapy as the patient (one experience being very negative with a treatment center and an ongoing positive experience with an independent therapist).
Asking a patient how they feel about giving a score seems like something that is missing from the standard method, it's something I think I will discuss with my therapist as well because it's definitely important to evaluate the manner and frequency in which it's done, and perhaps for some patients it might be better to focus more on the bilateral stimulation and focus less on the score as well as the other way around.
Firstly I think by the way you wrote that you have adhd.
Secondly I can attest as I have cpdsd that it works really well on me. And thirdly my therapist never asks me to rate the level of a feeling. So its not necessary, I believe he can feel when I am calm and when I am not and when the issue we are dealing with is resolved by that session. So you can stop asking for ratings too. I am happy you ve choosen to learn it and I want you to know that you will see that it worths your time.
I would think it depends on the person and therapist.
I’ve been studying the Satanic Panic and psychotherapeutic pseudoscience that drove it most of my life.
The same conspiracy therapists that convinced patients they were abused by Satanic Cults for 10 years and completely forgot about it/repressed it flooded into EMDR when they started catching heat.
I’ve spent time reading forums for people in EMDR therapies that have questionable therapists and I have seen many discuss not being able to get out of bed, go to work, or function in general since starting it and recovering forgotten memories (which have a high likelihood of being false).
All said it was helping and they were doing so much better.
From the client-side, I can tell you that I felt exactly the kind of suds anxiety that you're talking about. It was really unnerving to go through 30-second bilateral sessions, only to give the same number over and over. In these gimmick-based therapies (I'm not really sure how else to describe them), I always feel like I'm doing it wrong, even when the doctor reassures me that there's no way to do it wrong. It feels like accidently seeing how a magician did a trick, but you still have to go along with the finale because it's part of the show.
@@antoniskaloterakis7996hmm I don't think you can just randomly assume that somebody has ADHD like that but ok
I benefited from EMDR treatment for a specific life-threatening event. It wasn’t very helpful after a later, repeated traumatic experience, but I digress. One thing that has always bothered me is that my therapist always wanted me to reach a “0 distress” level related to the event. I don’t think it’s rational to have NO distress at all when thinking about a traumatic event. We *should* be upset, sad, or mad in some regard. I had 12ish (maybe more, I forget) sessions and could never reach a 0. If it’s keeping you from functioning, which is was prior to my treatment, that is a problem, but why is it that our conception of treatment so often is “you have a problem and we need to fix it”?
This puts my EMDR experience into a much clearer perspective. I've had two EMDR therapists with two drastically different experiences. The part where you talked about the fanaticism among clinicians especially made sense given their differences. One of my therapists had been specialized in and practiced EMDR for 20 years and I had exactly one session with her before lying that I felt better and hightailing it. Her method made the trauma more intensive and I was only able to know that wasn't effective for my PTSD long-term because of the EMDR therapist before her not inflicting that harm. In particular there was no telling her that the method wasn't working, I voiced my frustrations multiple times and she'd brush it off to say I needed to replay the memory again until it was less intense. I really have to wonder if desensitize to them isn't another word for numb.
And even with the other EMDR therapist who *did* have a positive impact, the success had nothing to do with eye movement but the elements brought in from different therapeutic strategies. To this day I can't recall a time where tapping my thighs did the same as distress tolerance skills or the safe place she had me construct. Hell, even dunking my head in ice water is backed up with a proven physiological effect on the body.
Thank you so much for this video. I felt like a failure for YEARS because EMDR did nothing at all for me, except send me into flashbacks/dissociation/psychosis at worst, and made me giddy and confused at the best. The psychiatrist I had went through the whole technique and explained in detail how it apparently worked; I can't fault them at all, they were very knowledgeable and truly believed that EMDR was the best thing for dealing with trauma. And maybe, for some people, it is -- and more power to them. Keep doing what works, by ALL means! But the fact that it didn't work for me, and I never wanted to do it again made a lot of therapists/psych*s I worked with incredibly annoyed or dismiss me as non-compliant. So many people I knew got so much out of it, I honestly thought that my brain was just broken beyond repair and there was no healing from my trauma. Hearing that no, it doesn't work for everyone, and it's a tad woo-woo on top of everything else has been massively validating. Maybe there is healing to be found somewhere for me, and it's fine that EMDR can't do it.
Very mature and healthy of you to have that point of view and experience. I share the same.
I think this challenges a huge implicit bias most human beings have (even trained professionals) which is: "we want a method/formula/system that works universally, and then we can go auto-pilot and use less critical thinking, if it doesn't work, we blame the other person, subconsciously, rather than take responsibility"
which has been going on in both religious and secular societies. real counselling/therapy is accepting all negative feedback and working with nuances to come up with something that works for you.
We have that common sense with food, there is no ONE FOOD/DISH that is good for "EVERYONE ALL THE TIME." Diet is diverse and we experiment and try things according to the nutrition and particular body of the person we are working with. There are some common principles shared widespread, but APPLIED DIFFERENTLY according to DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
Being attached to one method/formula we forget, PEOPLE are DIFFERENT, so why not expect a single formula won't work for everyone. lol.
@@JML689 I hear you! I've been saying this for ages, especially in regards to mental health. If all brains and bodies are different, there's not ever going to be a one-size-fits-all solution to any kind of problems, either for physical health or mental health. I don't understand why so many mental health professionals are so quick to cling to the idea that [X] is the solution, and if their patient can't handle [X], or suggests [Y] or [Z] in lieu of it, said patient is labelled non-compliant and they wash their hands of them. It's absolutely disheartening and I think it discourages a lot of people who have been burned by it to seek further help, which is not remotely good.
I tried this with an old therapist once of twice. It didn't work for me because I couldn't concentrate on the eye movement and I got too sleepy. I had so much problems with attention for EMDR. I also expressed my skepticism when it was explained to me before hand. Can't lie, I feel semi-vindicated by this video even though it works for some people.
Emdr could be placebo, or it could be more complex than we know.
I find the bilateral stimulation to be similar to something else a trauma informed therapist said. They said to give physical feedback to the body to help loosen muscle tension and activate parasympathetic nervous system (opposite of fight or flight)
If your flashbacks cause intense fight or flight response, the physical stimulation could help counteract that response
One hypothesis among many, including placebo
Relaxing and exiting fight or flight seems necessary. Can't process trauma when in fight or flight.
I tried emdr with the eye movement and didn’t like it at all, too distracting and made me dizzy. But I then tried it with these little things you hold in both hands that alternate vibrating. I found it extremely relaxing and effective. So the method does really make a difference…whether the bilateral stimulation actually has anything to do with the effectiveness I dunno but it worked wonders for me.
I have always been skeptical of emdr. I have adhd, and any time I have experienced bilateral stimulation, I find it completely overwhelming and I want to run away. It doesn’t matter how much I tell therapists I don’t want to do emdr, many have insisted I try tapping or “butterfly hugs” or some equally annoying technique. To me, it just feels like a way to avoid letting me talk through the trauma. And I actually feel better when I talk through the trauma with someone who knows how to help me process it. But finding a therapist to do that with can be impossible when there’s so much data that supposedly supports EMDR
reiki work for ppl and thats fake
@@JHabcthat’s just basic talk therapy and there’s a billion of those…
EMDR was the only thing that got me through a profoundly traumatic period. Nothing else worked, including CBT, meds, psychodynamic therapy and numerous other modalities. But EMDR did the trick, though it took a while.
Re the utility of bilateral eye movements, recent real time brain imaging studies show they reduce neuronal activity associated with the fear response within the amygdala. Thus enabling us to confront fears without being overwhelmed. Some evolutionary biologists believe that the combination of rapid eye movements and reduced fear, enabled our hominid ancestors to survive violent conflicts - by ensuring we could scan the dangerous environment while remaining relatively calm under pressure. EMDR hacks into this ancient biology coding.
I had an EMDR treatment 25-30 years ago. It did nothing for me. Zero. Nothing. I was confused by it to be honest. What did I pay for? Oh, nothing.
So Im in the middle of EMDR therapy with a psychologist who does both CBT and EMDR. I'm autistic and have a sound fixation; the EMDR I"m doing uses both sound and eye movement.
Last week was the second in a set of memories that have some very heavy topics. I expect my anxiety and the resultant bad week as echos of the sessions affected my sleeping patterns afterwards would have been the same with CBT. I was tempted to do an emergency session with my therapist (it's always an option). I finally managed to properly sleep though and have been much better since then. Reflecting on those same memories now though.. they aren't immediately triggering bad things. The exposure is working.
I"v been doing EMDR now for 12 months; the memories from the start of EMDR are still no longer triggering fight or flight responses. They are unpleasant but I'm no longer having panic attacks or other issues from them. None of my nightmares contain those memories anymore.
Regarding the purple hat metaphor ... as you noted behind it is some standard therapy. What the purple hat is doing in that context is providing a focus - a vehicle for change. Just because it might be a placebo doesn't mean it won't work provided people also do the other actions that are involved in the therapy. And there is other actions; on reflection I do end up talking a lot about my feeling and I am constantly being exposed to sections of my bad memories over and over until they become disconnected to my fight and flight response.
So for me it works; I'm okay that part of this may involve a 'placebo'. The structure of the sessions and having a known progression though makes therapy less anxious as a whole. I'm also not compelled to reduce my score. Or at least I don't feel that. And the results have been positive - there are words that used to cause lots of anxiety and panic which are much less distresing now. I have a lot less nightmares.
We still have some way to go - it's taken us 12 months to get into the really heavy elements of my CPTSD. But Im hopeful and positive about the outcome.
I am so glad it works for you. I have adhd and cpdsd and it works for me also . There is a feeling of safety when you realise that what is done is done. Then other smaller things pop up and you say o f@ck they will never end but they will eventually will. I wish you the best
Whatever I was supposed to be feeling, I couldn't. In the bilateral stimulation sessions, all I could do is think about everything in materialistic terms, like it just felt like a little plastic thing buzzing in my hand and nothing else. The more I felt the expectation of something miraculous to start happening, the more anxious I felt, and my thoughts got foggier to the point where I couldn't hold the thing I was supposed to be thinking about in my minds eye. I felt weird guilt every time my pain level to intrusive thoughts didnt go down, and also anxious that my session time was being spent on EMDR instead of talk therapy, which is what I find most helpful. Eventually I said to my therapist that I felt so embarrassed like I was being expected to roleplay as a character who gets better or something, and they were really receptive and pivoted back to talk therapy, which I'm thankful for. I don't hold it against them, because it's definitely possible that it could work differently for different people.
I am a Licensed Professional Counselor and LOVE this video. It is spot on with everything. Shapiro has done nothing new and borrowed from other energy and CBT techniques that came way before her. Roger Callahan with Thought Field Therapy used rapid eye movements with algorithms, and it resembles Emotional Freedom Technique energy work. It's all the same just calling it something different, claiming it unique and charging too much money to be trained. What may be happening is probably classical conditioning and/or desensitization or even the placebo effect. I loved your last quote "what's effective in EMDR is not new and what's new in EMDR is not effective." I also agree with your assertion that the training is "churning out fanatics" and not unbiased clinicians since the training is so ridiculously expensive.
My clinical councilor did 2 years masters and a year for EDMR. He was skeptical but the results have been worth it. You may not get your return on investment as a councilor free $150 a hour is the same whether you have EDMR verification or not. How much is the 1 year course?
Merry Christmas to me, my favorite gift by far this year is finding this channel
I have had 6 EMDR sessions over the past four months that freed me from Complex childhood PTSD. It worked like the surgical removal of a toumer, even if I go looking for the pain it's just not there.
I usually use tapping my legs alternately, or the butterfly on my chest. I was told it was to blur or confuse the separation between the left and right hemispheres of the brain to enable the verbal visualizations to burrow all the way to the core of the trauma's origin so that place can be replaced with strengthening verbal visualizations of security and things you love.
It works for me. Like a Priest saying, 'DEVIL BE GONE!'.
I still have the effects of that abuse in my personality and perceptions, but I can focus on improving more clearly without the constant fear and pain eating at me.
Did you previously do other types of therapy?
i got EMDR from my therapist (provided to me by my university bc we get abt 12 free counseling sessions with tuition, just for context) over the course of maybe a year. I won't go into the specific issues I was dealing with, but I'll just say it was partially guilt-fueled OCD over real events/intrusive thoughts, and some trauma from past abuse.
I had gone to my very first appointment there and ended up with a random therapist, who after the appointment referred me to the therapist I was with for the long haul because she specialized in my specific traumas/issues. And I'm glad she did, because she was great! She helped me through my specific issues with the care and understanding I was afraid I wouldn't be afforded, and she had experience with exactly that kind of stuff. As a therapist she's amazing.
The EMDR wasn't bad, it was done well, I think. Instead of finger movement, it was a bar with lights on it that would kind of move right to left over the course of a few seconds, along with headphones playing the beeps, and a thing in my hand that would vibrate every time the lights made it to one end of the bar. She executed it well and did it basically as described, she was really good at it.
Looking back, I think what helped me the most was just talking with her. At one point we even just decided the EMDR was kind of unnecessary and from that point our sessions were just talking.
The EMDR is helpful to some degree, maybe more depending on the person. For the most part though, the amount of time I'd have to sit with a certain memory/feeling was a bit too long. Not in that it was re-traumatizing, but in that I have ADHD and after maybe like 3 minutes I wouldn't even remember what I was supposed to be thinking about, and had shifted to thinking of what I was gonna do later. So to be fair, part of the 'desensitization' was that I had just kind of gotten bored of the trauma, and became more concerned with what snack I was gonna have when I got home. Which does technically count, I think.
It did sort of work as intended too, when I managed to concentrate for the entire time.
It also may have had something to do with me misunderstanding the number rating system. I'd be asked after how disturbing a memory was and rather than answer how anxious it was *currently* making me feel, I think I answered it more as an objective amount of 'how much that sucks' and how I'd feel just hearing about the event. Which would lead to even more boredom as I'd be sat dealing with a memory I'd already gotten over a couple rounds ago but I still said 3 out of 10 because I still thought the event objectively sucked, lol.
As someone who has been subjected to both EMDR and NLP ... I really want you to make that NLP video.
EMDR has helped me more than years of CBT therapy ever did
CBT is pretty bad from my understanding of it.
@@ringsystemmusic It sounds pretty similar to CBT in repeition until it matches belief, aka brainwashing.
Me too!
That's not saying much
CBT is excellent. It saved my life. Whereas, EMDR was not beneficial.
Here from Nebula to comment:
I suspect there are two other things going on with EMDR's popularity. First is that it gives people who're concerned about stigma the veneer of respectability of a non-"therapy" form of assistance. (Even though talk-therapy is an integral part of the EMDR process, the client can pass it off as not being so-perhaps even to themselves, if need be.) Secondly, for those who have trouble opening up about their traumas to other people, EMDR seems to involve relatively little talking about the details. Relatively low vulnerability.
Interesting points, make sense to me, since the 'therapy game' is getting more popular with celebs. One can make emdr into jet another recreational thingy you do these days.
I just discovered your channel with this video--thank you for making the thoughtful content that you do! I'm a psychologist myself, and I have often had thoughts about putting together videos along the lines of yours. Now that I know you're out there, I definitely feel this need quite a bit less!
I just knew I couldn't be the only clinical therapist (MSW over 30 years) that sees this as BS. It completely discounts all the other aspects of trauma!! People who believe in this WANT TO BELIEVE it works. The most uneducated "counselors"(clickety click online colleges) with barely any experience have become snake oil sales people on EMDR. Just like rubbing CBD oil on your joint doesn't cure arthritis, bouncing eyeballs and relaxation exercises don't resolve sexual abuse issues or bipolar disorder. Thanks for letting me voice my feelings on this to people who are also logical and properly educated in mental health services. What a nice Xmas gift to myself LOL! Peace Out.
Would love to see a video about hypnosis! I was "hypnotized" on stage once -- except I wasn't, and was 100% fully conscious and in control of my faculties the whole time, but just deciding to play along. But some of the other people claimed to have no memory of the experience and I'd love to understand it better
Hypnosis or hypnotherapy?
Me too. You are supposed to remember. If you didn’t you might have something really wrong with your brain.
I went to a guy and it didn’t work so I thought it was a crock of shit until I went to a licensed therapist that totally put me in a trance state and I was GONE
Done! Hopefully my hypnosis video can shine some light on the topic: czcams.com/video/OMQ9mCadSzM/video.htmlsi=EPJdyYDQ08adt-0d
@@neurotransmissions oh wow! Definitely wasn't expecting that, certainly not months later -- but thanks!! 😃
EMDR was the only thing that relieved my daughter of a very specific and debilitating emotional trauma that she suffered as a child. It was literally the only thing that helped. Everything exists all at once.
placebo
@b.johnny369
I am relieved and so glad for your daughter and you. Take good care of yourselves 💕
@@arkamukhopadhyay9111but does it matter if it a placebo if it helped the daughter heal?
Acupuncture helped me get of a full physical addiction to prescription Vicodin. I’ve no idea if the acupuncture was a placebo effect or it was really doing something but I’m very thankful I was able to go cold turkey without the side effects that had driven me crazy only days previously.
what is your proof of that?@@arkamukhopadhyay9111
same here. i tried years of other therapy & nothing but EMDR helped me
I did a few sessions of EMDR with my shrink that was trained in it. It really did nothing so we dropped it. It really felt like BS to me.
I've been a patient with a emdr therapist for years.
100 percent has made no difference in my life.
I would say so much therapy has made me worse mentally.
There's no focus on how to move forward, just digging up old wounds & then me crying and screaming at people in my life with me bringing it up again.
I have my first appointment March 5 for EMDR. My aunt said it helped her a lot, whereas my former friend said it just made her phobias worse. My main thing is I heard EMDR can help those who have blocked memories, which I have. I have a lot of trauma, but I can’t remember a thing that happened aside from a few events.
I have yet to watch the video, I don’t want it to sway my decision on going through with it 🥲 because otherwise I feel like I can’t get help with my issues, since they stem from these long forgotten memories.
I had three separate therapists try using this on me, 2 of them included the beeping systems and paddles, and the two with the beeps ended up with me having complete meltdowns in their office from being overstimulated, and claims I was fighting their help. They gave no other options to types of work we could try. No idea it existed before the first one tried it, was completely open to it, but I never found more help from it than just talking to someone (without the beeping). Even the person who only made me use the paddles I felt like I was wasting my time. If it is something that helped someone, awesome, I'm so glad you found relief somehow, but I wish it would be offered has one of MANY possible options for help, not the standard.
I did a research project for grad school about 10 years ago re EMDR And my understanding of reviewing all the literature is that as the eyes are going back-and-forth, it mirrors a dream state of deep sleep, which allows the mind to open UP the pathways to a more full experience of the trauma event in order to process it thoroughly through.
Engaging with the therapist and having an overall feeling of safety and trust in a therapeutic process is also essential. It's a combination of all of these that really help the therapeutic process.
As an art therapist, EMDR is really popular in my field and I feel pretty skeptical about it.
Before I retired from therapy at a low-fee clinic, a friend asked if I would be his therapist. Of course, I could not do that, but I referred him to a colleague at the clinic. Sometime later, he told me that she had been sympathetic, but he didn’t feel any progress until he found an EMDR therapist. Curious, I took the beginner’s training and started using it. I remember one client, an adult male who had been raped by an older boy when he was in grade school. After a month of so of weekly EMDR sessions, he told me, “I no longer hate myself”. After hearing your presentation, I really would like to know if after the few years that have passed, he still is free from that self-hatred. I suspect that much of the “science” we are sold these days is research that has been conducted by those who benefit financially from the results they have coaxed from the data. Especially pharmaceutical research. Thank you for making me more aware! Oh, and I remember during the EMDR training someone asked the trainer where Shapiro got this technique. He said he thought she got it while she was abducted by aliens. I think he was kidding.
I had 48, 2 hour EMDR sessions for complex PTSD. It was horrific. The whole experience was exhausting and I often thought I wouldn’t make it through.
After 48 sessions we came to a natural end. It made an amazing positive difference to my general life.
It was effective at treating my personal flashbacks and dissociative episodes for 3 years before a high stress period in my life caused a relapse.
I’m not convinced that EMDR is fool proof but, in the setting that I had, for the duration, it had significantly better results than DBT and other similar talking methods for me personally, where there was never any cessation of the PTSD symptoms.
I have been training as a therapist for the last 2 years following my journey and I’ve been extremely interested in this subject as it genuinely did work for me.
I’m really interested in a more deep dives of modalities as this trend of disputing the results and efficacy tracks with most of the common modalities I’ve personally looked into; and yet at the same time many people, have had positive experiences like myself.
I absolutely hate the idea that EMDR (and the BTs) are just NLP in another outfit.
I’d been in therapy most of my life talking about trauma and abuse until I was bored of my own stories but was still traumatized. Emdr has been really helpful and when I do emdr on a topic I am just no longer traumatized by it. It’s the only thing that’s really worked but it does take a lot to be able to do it.
I was having daily full on panic attacks with significant dissociation and EMDR absolutely just stopped them in their tracks. I don't dissociatiate anymore and I can go years without a full blown panic attack. However, it really didn't help me for childhood traumatic memories, my therapist definitely applied it like a panacea.
So yeah I can attest to it working for my most physiological symptoms but not for other things at all. Purely anecdotal of course
I remember hearing about EMDR from a book called “The Body Keeps Score” by Dr. Bessel A. Von Der Kolk.
It cured me of a drowning phobia after 1 session! It definitely works. But I have a dissociative disorder so it takes a longer time for me to work through the many traumas
I used EMDR only after trying so much regular therapy, it has been the only thing that has worked on my complex PTSD. It worked amazingly!!
Being a therapist myself, I had my own misgivings around EMDR; I came up with the conclusion that what works about EMDR it is the exposure to traumatic events. The more you get expose to those memories , the less impactful they become. No one is going to forget the experiences he or she has gone through, but learning how to deal with those traumatic events by using the coping mechanisms the person him/her self identifies, allows the person to move on.
WOW WOW WOW!!! 🤯
I have CPSTD and EMDR literally sent me into psychosis as a teen, so this information is validating in so many ways. Thank you for stepping out and sharing, sincerely from the bottom of my heart!
I was in training as a trauma therapist when EMDR popped off. It's horrifyingly expensive to be trained and for everything I've learned about it, what is new about EMDR is not effective, and what is effective is not new. The eye movements, at best, are a distraction from the anxiety in therapy and a placebo. At worst, they are a very expensive delay to the actual work done in therapy with a mechanism of action that is completely made up.
Well said.
The mechanism of action is made up, but seeing as how EMDR can work without the person having to talk about what happened it's better than a lot of therapy. Many therapists aren't trauma informed and say they "don't believe" in retraumatisation. A loved one of mine is in hospital right now because of one such therapist who asked invasive questions and brought up past traumas in someone with no effective self-soothing strategies whatsoever. Don't act like talk therapy is somehow automatically better, it's not even safe approx 10% of the time and there is endless research studies showing it hurts about that percentage of clients.
A "delay" isn't such a terrible thing when what is being delayed may be harmful! You must not have a background in psychology if you think a placebo that worked for CPTSD wouldn't be a wonderful thing. Or your training didn't cover what the placebo effect is?
Really enjoyed this! As a hypnotist, I see so many clients who were retraumatized by EMDR after trying it for years in some cases with no improvement. I’ve also heard the lore of her involvement with the NLP guys in my EMI training (eye movement integration, what she modeled EMDR after). Was so glad you brought this into the story!
Thank you for posting this video. I have CPTSD and found EMDR unhelpful but almost guilty because it wasn't working for me, like it was that I wasn't trying hard enough to get or something. Eventually I quit therapy with that therapist because they were so focused on doing the EMDR only. It's so validating to know more about the history and research into its efficacy. Now I don't feel like I failed at it, it's just a thing that doesn't always work for everyone
This was great Micah! I've experienced EMDR as a client and actually just started a Masters of Counselling, so I found this super interesting. I found it both effective and a bit "wooey", for lack of a better word, but it was definitely on the list of trainings I was curious about maybe getting at some point... This was definitely helpful. Also I knew literally nothing about the founder, but wow, what a ride that story was :|
Woah, no way! I had no idea you were on that path. Hope it goes well! And thanks for the kind words, Kurtis :)
Thanks so much@@neurotransmissions ! It's all good so far :) Hope you're doing well!
I would love to see a similar video looking into the history and effectiveness of ABA (applied behavioral analysis) therapy for autistic people.
Some clinicians and parents of autistic kids say it's a miracle treatment and the gold standard. Other clinicians and some autistic adults who had the therapy as kids say it's abuse and is based on gay conversation therapy. What does the research say?
Oh yes.
My only worry is I'm worried that any research into ABA would ignore the subjective experience of those subjected to it and focus far too heavily on how "effective" it is at encouraging masking behaviour. 😢
It's abusive and harmful. Ann Memmot writes about the research. ABA is from the same source as gay conversion therapy. It's big business ¢££££££££££££¢££££££££
Well, I've had EMDR for around 6 months and I can say it made me neither more or less gay...
I agree. I’ve tried reading about it for a bit and what I’ve seen so far is that the SHORT term outcomes APPEAR outwardly positive. Many companies promote themselves on making the child appear LESS or NOT autistic. I don’t think it’s challenging for an autistic person to feel how harmful that thinking is for us. The general goals appear to be, making the child less “problematic” for the caregivers/teachers.
In order to become “licensed” one needs to complete a 40hr workshop training program. Which many of those who hold this license state that there is no training about autism or child development.
The issue I see is what you mentioned. The long term effects of someone basically being forced to become a “people pleaser” and all of the mental instability that follows. Opening at risk persons to be even easier to victimize. Not to mention erasing their identity and personal preferences because they are “troublesome” to adults. Really not addressing the issues at all or making the child feel safe.
Clearly, that’s not to say that individuals cannot be within the field and choose to modify their methods to see better outcomes. My criticism is merely someone who is not a professional researcher, but an autistic caring for an autistic child who has read a few days worth of information. I am still happy to digest new information, but I have decided that my child will not engage with it.
It would be more accurate to say that both ABA and gay conversion therapy are based on Operant conditioning. IE Pavlov's dogs.
Gay conversion therapy uses negative conditioning or punishment to train aversion.(IE abuse)
ABA is "supposed" to use *positive* reinforcement or rewards to encourage behavior. I say supposed to because there are a lot of ABA people that have little training. And there are a lot of parents that want ABA to make their child a 'normal' kid. They put a lot of pressure on the kid.
So much of the problems with ABA steim from these two issues.
ABA is continuing to evolve though as feedback is coming in and the modality is changing as neurodiversity is being seen as ok and not a problem. It's an evolving field as we learn more.
I will say for autistic kids that music is a big help. There is a whole field based on sound therapy that uses Binaural beats and other Frequencies that calm the mind and somatic system(The Fight or Flight system) without side effects of medication. This type of music is free on youtube😊
In addition the body is critically reliant on magnesium to function. Becoming stressed depletes the bodies store of magnesium.
Most people are very low on magnesium and also Omega 3's so adding these two supplements into the diet of autistic and ADHD people has greatly helped with their ability to self regulate their emotions and to not get so overwhelmed. This is scientifically backed up research.
I am experiencing significant ongoing medical trauma. What I have happens so suddenly, and is so bloody (coughing). I associate it with laying down to sleep (which is when it tends to happen), which makes that particular activity very hard. I am evaluating all options for treatment. Thanks for this.
Oh yikes, that sounds so uncomfortable and upsetting! I hope you're able to find treatment that works for you.
I was actually trying to find more critical information about EMDR a few months ago, and it was really hard to come across accessible information. Thank you for this video!
I can disprove the EM part of EMDR with one word: Nystagmus.
Nystagmus is, "a vision condition in which the eyes make repetitive, uncontrolled movements." For my entire life, but especially when I was younger, relaxing my gaze resulted in rapid bilateral eye movements. (I was born with cataracts and other ophthalmic issues that were operated on in my infancy/toddler years.) I can do bilateral stimulation through eye movement at will. It didn't stop me from getting PTSD, and it's never been a lick of help since. I tried doing EMDR some years ago within a therapeutic context, and found it utterly useless; it was just my eyes doing their thing.
Now, all of that other desensitization stuff? I'm sure that has some palliative effect. But the eye movement part? Utter and complete hogwash. The most successful treatment for my PTSD and mood disorders is a combination of medication and DBT. Not eye wigglies.
I've partaken in EMDR therapy on and off since 2016, and I've personally had a profound experience with it; helping me with my own traumas, and anxieties. I've suggested others around me to try it as well, and it's worked really well for some, and others found no use from it. I think it really depends on your readiness and willingness to trust that it'll work, and if your subconscious mind is ready as well. I've tried it with some therapists where I left the session feeling even more angry than I went in, and that's when I realized it had to do with the level of trust with the therapist. Some people benefit from talk-therapy alone, and others need EMDR, and others need a combo of both.
I personally found EMDR therapy to be one of the main reasons to why I decided to pursue further education in social work so that I could become a therapist myself. After all, there's really no "one size fits all" when it comes to therapy modalities, and individuals.
When dealing with cptsd, what with all the attachment wounding, establishing a relationship of trust might be one of the most important factors in trauma therapy
So, a placebo effect. Does it do better?
@@calboy2 yes, esp relative to talk therapy for PTSD/ C-PTSD, & esp for neurodivergent individuals
"Readiness and willingess to trust it'll work"
Integral part of dogma. I'd take a long, hard look at that internal reasoning.
My husband is in therapy using . He was involved in a shooting and has Barely had any serious trauma in his life before this.
It was very hard for him to even think about the situation without falling apart.
I don’t know about the full science of EMDR, but from what he has described for him it’s more the ASMR effect it gives him. it creates a safe space for him to be calm enough to focus on his trauma without becoming overwhelmed.
I am a psychiatrist who works in Germany. Recently, in our weekly journal club, an up-to-date presentation of EMDR was given by a senior physician. It is certainly effective in the short term, but its long-term efficacy lacks quality studies, although publications in PubMed show efficacy after 18 months of treatment.
In my opinion, bilateral stimuli play a role in dissociative behavior, acting as a way to ignore the problem. This is a mechanism that severely traumatized people employ, but in the long run, it can turn into a disorder.
Therefore, while I am convinced of the short-term efficacy of the method, I am skeptical about its long-term effects.
I believe it’s the human connection, attention and the intention behind it to believe it’s healing that makes ‘it work’.
Humans just need someone in their corner for a bit to support their pain and that is what heals.
Doesn’t matter if it’s EMDR, equine therapy, talk therapy, heck even circus therapy - anything at all. If another human is in a relationship where they have someone invested in being alongside someone the investment is what heals. Doesn’t matter what form it happens in. Could be a good friend or a passing friend or partner doesn’t take training just empathy, time, intention and space. No label needed. Just someone being human to another human.
I appreciate this so much. As someone who got a tbi in San Diego and who still resides here I got to tell you it is SO HARD to avoid treatments here that aren't based from the NLP "school" of thought. When I got hit by a red light runner I was told by a healer (who is also an immigration lawyer who recommended me my injury lawyer) that I manifested getting hit by that car due to my 'unsolved mother trauma' " and I was like... If that wasn't the absolute dumbest thing that I ever heard I would take more offense to how mean it is, then she ordered me reiki for $300! 😂😂😂 like no wtf is wrong with ppl here - they be not understanding correlation isn't causation and how is that a logical correlation in the first place and how the hell did you pass the bar exam with dumb ass thinking like that? I should take that test lol cause it can't be too hard if that is what represents it. Anyways that is when I realized I should have went with my original lawyer I was eyeing but this was after I signed the contract with her recommendation with her lawyer who stated to see her good injury "doctors" (aka a chiropractor- which I was never hurt before and when I was under my moms good insurance at Stanford they were covered under her insurance so I figured it was legit 😮💨) who told me I had symptoms cause my "nerves were jumbled up" and long story short they were all part of this school of thought and idk they drained my money and my settlement and maybe it's cause I have Basque lineage and that's why this stuff didn't work out on me but maybe my settlement sucked cause their lawyers saw that I had no case records from a reliable source and I got no help so yeah I really appreciate this video and am excited to dive into the other stuff you posted!
lol I started laughing out loud in public when I got to the part about taking the bar exam. I hate that someone told you you “manifested” getting hit by car. Legit the dumbest thing, smdh
It's extra weird that a lawyer would literally blame the victim, considering the who is to blame part is really important
Im from Colorado and that stuff is really common there too. I live in NYC now and people here are so surprised when I tell them about it.
I was incredibly skeptical of EMDR after being recommended it by my therapist. Eventually, I tried it. I have no way to explain it but it helped me so so much. It’s likely placebo but I remember physically feeling some shit shift in my brain. I didn’t have the most severe ptsd but it helped me so so so much. It was the absolute worst being in the sessions as it was super emotional and intense reliving things. But after being in more traditional therapy for over a year and making little progress EMDR was a huge step forward for me. Didn’t fix everything, but was the first real improvement I made
i did emdr from age 5-12 for panic attack disorder, emetophobia, and anxiety. it made me hallucinate during the process and have weird lucid dreams nightly, but it did work for about 6 months at a time until i would have to do it again. emetophobia is hard because every time you throw up it’s almost like you become retraumatized.
As a unicorn interested in random videos, I learned a lot with this one! Thank you! 🦄
I'm a Unicorn who likes random videos but I also clicked because I've had EMDR therapy for CPTSD. It might have helped a bit in the short term at the time, but I ended up with a much better psychologist a few years later when everything I'd done with the EMDR therapist may as well not have happened.
I know he said CBT is the gold standard for therapy, but it's my opinion that CBT doesn't help CPTSD. Everyone I know with CPTSD (and that's a nontrivial number of people because there's a lot of medical trauma for generations in my family and among my friends) ended up frustrated and not helped by CBT. Plus they were made to feel like aliens because CBT works for everyone, right? It's the gold standard, after all!!
My psychologist figured out pretty quickly that CBT was worthless for me. Worse than worthless. She moved on to Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and my life has been demonstrably better since. I tell everyone about ACT because it's so overlooked. People need to know that ACT is an option, especially those with PTSD, complex or not. We think that PTSD is a fairly treatment-resistant condition, but maybe we're just railroaded into a less than useful modality because "everyone says it's the gold standard."
Well, it's not the only gold standard. ACT is a research-backed therapy and should be offered as a first-line modality for PTSD and CPTSD patients. Not this EMDR bunk, and not even CBT.
For me, EMDR has been a miracle. Painful memories and their associated beliefs are healed. The pain is gone. My therapist does not use eye movements. She uses small plastic spheres that you hold in your hand and which alternate vibrating. She approached EMDR with great skepticism. Then she witnessed how powerful it is. I will add that the therapist has to be very skilled at it.
As a DID system, I had someone mention the possibility of this type of treatment, yet I was unsure of how to feel about it myself. In fact I am still unsure of how to feel as I heard that to treat DID with something like EMDR, it'd have to be handled differently than regular EMDR.
Though it is good to know what it is overall. I heard it was in a sense "exposure therapy" and that concept scared me a ton. I still am nervous, but I am glad I ran into this video!
Thank you for making this, it was very informative. Although I've never tried EMDR, I have tried Brainspotting (which is extremely similar) and it just never really made sense to me. I went along with it for several sessions until I finally told my therapist that I didn't think it was doing anything for me. She said she understood and we would try other things. Well, like you said in the video, "the people who do EMDR are REALLY into EMDR" and it seems to be the same with brainspotting. I had maybe one or two sessions without any brainspotting, then suddenly my therapist started going back into it. We'd be talking and I'd mention something stressful and she'd say "why don't we try some brainspotting focusing on that?" I reluctantly agreed and only ever felt like I was falling asleep. I eventually stopped seeing her because I think her entire schtick was brainspotting and it just took me that long to realize it.