My main gripe with all these morphs is the effect its having on captive diversity. Why try to make one species suit all tastes? There are colours and patterns with infinite combinations that naturally occur and we are completely ignoring them. I find it frustrating beyond belief that ball pythons are pushed so hard by breeders, to be honest the trade has to take responsibility for the state of the buisness. Inbreeding a couple of morph lines over and over again, without the introduction of unrelated DNA is simply shortsighted and greedy.
Have to disagree most big breeders bring in new imports of ball python to create new blood lines but it's not talked about because nobody watches or cares about that part of the hobby but I think freedom breeders just did a video on important ball pythons
Yep. Greed. Some breeders are in it simply for the money and it shows. If breeders won’t willingly act responsibly then regulations should be imposed. Self regulate or be regulated. I have no sympathy for greedy breeders.
@@franciscoandrade9180 if the new imported snakes have these specific mutations that means they carry the mutations and they aren't adding genetic diversity
But listen, this is how dog, cat, horse, rat, etc. breeds were created. Breeding should be selective, absolutely, but having multi generations of captive bred animals is ideal for captive animals. This is how a domestic/ pet quality animal is created and produced.
I'm not a fan of the 'if it eats and breeds, it's healthy' argument, either. I have a pretty good drive and feeding response, but that doesn't mean anything.
Why take a chance of even a 50 percent chance of it having problems. All these morphs are ridiculous. And I've seen many cass of inbreeding with snakes. Like what the heck.
I suspect that the woma, hidden gene woma, and spider genes are all similar in their mechanism (i.e. have some effect on neural crest migration) . Hence their similar visual phenotypes. It’s probably why combinations with these genes are so variable in appearance... because random migration of cells and/or non-genetic variables can effect the ultimate appearance of the snake. Champagne and the others seem to be some different mechanism. But even with those, we do note that several of them are also pattern-altering mutations. I do believe that pattern-altering mutations may carry a higher risk of having defects associated with the morph. (Because is the snake’s development is messed up on the inside, it’s possible that it’s pattern may be likewise “messed up”-looking compared to a normal)
To eliminate having too many variables, you'd really need to split clutches between the two incubation temperature zones so that the only difference is the temperature and not the breeding. This would be really interesting to test out.
I recently lost my favorite BP (the very first one i ever owned, before i knew anything) who was a woma. Very small male, despite weekly feedings he never got over 700g> He had a kinked spine and a slight wobble. Chubbs was my very special boy and a complete puppy dog. I used to bring him to local petstores and community centers to help children interact with an extremely docile snake so they wouldn't be afraid :). Love your vids!
I’m new to breeding ball pythons n I just can’t bring myself to get a spider , they’re such a cool snake and you can make some amazing combos but it’s just not right to breed knowing your potentially gonna have these snakes harmed and deformed with defects , but keep up the good work , I do love what u do 👍🏻 keep it up
Chris Hardwick definitely, but as long as you and your snakes , and in that case for any breeder or owner , are happy then I do wish for people to stop the hate and just understand as breeders you love these animals and would never wish harm to any of them, but 100% support everything yous do and hope for best 🤘🏻
its so stupid just breed enchis and pinstripes they look similar but dont have any issues. the morph isnt even unique enough to try to breed out the defect
Always enjoy your content, you deserve more subs! My personal opinion on the breeding is that laws should not be put into place limiting it. We are beginning to produce amazing varieties of animals! Its basically like when selective breeding happened to dogs ancestors.
DizzleMCSTANG88 and look what a mess we made of them. Almost every pedigree breed is predisposed to its own set of health problems, with serious impacts on their welfare. Aesthetic appeal should never be a basis for breeding selection.
Yeah, like bulldogs who can't deliver puppies without a C-section, pugs with smashed faces so bad they can't breathe, dachshunds with back problems, you think these are OK? And that's just a few examples; there are many more. (Jan Griffiths).
Wobble or no wobble, not a fan of the spider gene. It reminds me of really chapped lips that you can get here in Colorado. And it just makes me uncomfortable. LoL no clue why...
The hypothesis is the spider gene is not just a gene that affects pattern, but rather causes an error in the neural crest during embryonic growth. The neural crest is responsible for depositing pigment as well as making sure neurons end up in the correct places. The spider morph affects where the pigment is deposited, giving it that typical drippy look, but at the same time prevents neurons from migrating to their normal places in the body thusly causing the neurological disorder. It is a dominant gene, therefore it cannot be carried, so the only individuals at risk for wobble are those with the visual characteristics of the spider morph or other specific genes.
Wow light bulb moment everything you said makes sense like the white colour in the eggs and it would be very interesting to see if temperature would make a difference. Love your posts keep them coming your a lovely chap paula England
-For the spider incubation ive kept it between 85-87 not and higher and my spiders came out no wobble at all .. redoing the combo this season at the same temps will keep you posted
If it truly has something to do with environmental factors instead of biological then that would be great and I would feel better about those snakes being bred, I like what you said about more research needing to be done I wish it would be thoroughly investigated into all of these different morphs to find out exactly what it is that causes these issues so we can end the debate and hopefully save these beautiful animals from issues like this in the future so that none of these beautiful animals have to have this issue! If u find out more please post I'd love to find out as much as possible!
Raising my first Spider male and got him as a baby and the snake doesn't display any head wobble unless the snake gets stressed out or feels intimidated or threatened and I can stop that motor skill reaction by resting my hand over the front of the snake (now at 8 months old) and he will calm right down !!! Definitely neurological damage that is enhanced by stress !!!
Kevin at NERD believes there is a super spider, brian barczyk made a video where he visits kevin and they both discuss the possibility of a super pinstripe and a super spider, kevin believes he has a super spider and brian actually bred what he believes to be a super pinstripe, they dont look any different but brian bred his 'super pinstripe; 3 years running and got nothing but pinstripe combos?? Interesting.
Wow I loved your video! You’re really an intelligent guy. I am happy youtube recommended tour spider video to me and now this one! I will subscribe for sure. By the way thank you for putting in all the time with the pictures and the research. I’ve always known about the head wobble but never put two and two together to realize all snakes with that gene might have issues as well. Thanks again
Hey Chris I just bought a spider python back like 2 months ago and it does not have a wobble it's actually moving perfectly fine. by the way like your videos doing great keep it up!!!
I personally would avoid the wobbly genes because there really isn’t an answer that’s set in stone. With some snakes, they’re totally fine and don’t have any issues. With others, they can’t get from end of their enclosure to the other without freaking out. I’d play it safe
The biggest problem with the spider is that it’s unpredictable. Some snakes may have no wobble, some have a slight tremor and some can’t even eat on their own- and this can worsen or get better as they age. That’s why personally I don’t think it should be bred because you don’t know how it will affect the snake. You might sale someone a spider morph with no wobble and then a year later it has one.
My spider male who's at least 13 did not have a wobble when he was young, I bought him as a 3 year old. As he got closer to 10 he developed the wobble. Started as an excited head Bob for food and has developed into a full out corkscrew. I have 2 champagnes no wobble.
I have a champ pastel female who developed wobble after she laid her first clutch at 2 years old. Hers isn't bad, but it's there. She still gets her food on the first strike, and eats very well. She's retired from breeding. She's 7 years old. (Jan Griffiths).
I have a super cinnamon ghi I'm confident has some issues it's almost like she's blind ill pull her out of the tank and she strikes 9/10 times at the heat lamp all on one strike when I feed her its the same issue she strikes crazy until I get her mouth too hit it its odd have you had or seen any issues like this??
Really interesting info here! One thing I will point out is the banana/coral glow "defect" is actually not a true defect. This was something that was only recently (~2-3 years ago) discovered, so a lot of breeders/forums aren't familiar with it yet, but pythons' and boas' sex chromosomes are X and Y, just like us, but not what most other snakes have, which is Z and W, which is what boas and pythons were assumed to have until very recently. With Z and W, ZZ means male and ZW means female, in contrast to XX meaning female and XY meaning male. With the Z/W sex chromosomes, the banana gene and its link to sex -- males only being able to produce one sex with the banana gene (male-makers or female-makers), and the females being able to produce both -- didn't make any sense, and so people assumed the gene was "wonky" and there might be some chromosomal defect with that morph. Now that we know they are actually X/Y, this gene makes sense: the gene can be attached to either the X or the Y chromosome (or both in the case of supers), which is why the males can only produce one sex with the trait (all the others being normals), and females being able to pass it half the time to either sex (half the time she'll pass on the X chromosome with the gene, the other half she'll pass on the X chromosome without it). Clint's Reptiles made a video about this, which I'll link below. I feel like it's really important for people to be aware of, because without knowing this information, people think there is something "wrong" with this gene, when that isn't the case at all, the gene is just linked to sex chromosomes. czcams.com/video/VjEiGnMYFdA/video.html
Yes. Especially if the snake gets stressed out, it is a 100% guarantee. PS, every spider has a wobble, it is just not that visible. Don't believe what breeders say that some spiders don't have a wobble.
Great video thanks! I’ve been showing and breeding dogs since I was a kid. I’ve had Schipperkes for the last 20 years. While the breed isn’t rare, there’s not a lot of them in the US and thus, not a ton of genetic diversity. We do have genetic testing available for a number of health issues, but epilepsy remains a big issue. Everyone has their theories, genetic, environmental, a combo of both.... etc. We’ve had balls for over 25 years and recently decided we’d like to try and hatch out a clutch or 2. I’m learning what I can about genetics, but WOW! So many morphs. With my background- I would love to see a registration program and pedigree databases. I know, pretty much impossible at this point, but would be so nice to make more informed breeding choices resulting in healthier animals..... for responsible breeders anyway. But responsible breeding is a whole other topic. 😆 Thanks again!
I would like to see that as well. As a small hobby breeder, I do keep pedigree records on the snakes I produce. However, I can only go back as far as grandparents at best, and most times not even that far. I don't use a number system---I use the snake's name and morph. (Jan Griffiths).
Oh, man, I thought it was spiders with this issue, holy crap! I maybe a future Ball Python mom and I've been really picky and trying to stay away from Spiders for the wooble defect. Nothing wrong with Spiders I just don't want that kinda stress as a new mom. But dang... more babies to worry about to narrow down my choices, yikes!!! 😨 I hope you get people for this project, not only for science, but for future Balls as well. 🐍❤
I wanted a white snake and came across one but sadly it was a Pied Spider, tho he is comepletely white and the seller said she doesen't notice a wobble, I will also see the Snake in person, what do you think? (Note they seller is NOT a breeder, she keept him as a pet herself)
I bought a spider, having no clue what all it meant. She may have a slight wobble but she's the sweetest snake I've ever handled. Even my two year old daughter can handle her without issue.
@@ChrisHardwickanimaladventures that's been my experience thus far. She eats fine, tho it sometimes takes a comical amount of time for her to find the head after restricting. My second ball python is kinda showing me how normal the spider is.
I'm looking at picking up a couple of female Bumble Bee (Pastel, Spider) TSK Axanthics off Morph Market, I've seen this co dominant morph in a lot of Axanthic snakes. JDC has Spider in many of thier lines. They even have one for ten grand that is Spider, GHI, Clown and Axanthic. Primo looking snake. I guess my question is would you buy two snakes sight unseen that are spiders? Or not take the chance? (Plan to breed with my TSK Axanthic Pastel male)
@@ChrisHardwickanimaladventures I asked and they said the mother with the spider trait came from JDC and they don't have any wobble even when feeding. Went ahead and pulled the trigger. Thanks Chris! Wouldn't have thought to ask unless I saw your video.
The person who said they never had a wobble msy not be being 100% honest. Think the only way to be sure of ur theory is doing it yourself or using very well know repertable breeders for your data
I tend to agree, but there is the * that goes with maybe there are some set of conditions that minimizes it and said person has lived within those set of conditions. So hard to say. I have 2 spider combos in my collection at the moment. One is wobble free and really great, other is all over the place like its drunk.
I doubt he not paying attention I've had lesser spider male without the wobble and he produced spiders without the wobble it's all line breeding most breeders have spiders with low to no wobble what keeps the wobble going is new breeders that breed spiders sold as pets and produce a wobble and then sell them cheap and it gives everybody a bad name
As a breeder, if you do have an abnormal offspring how do you humanely cull them ? How soon after hatching do you see the defects. Sorry about that I just found a post where you deal with my question, I just found your videos,
I usually will cull them immediately. Most defects you'll see immediately. As to the how? Ideal way is to either find a rodent breeder that has a chamber that they use to kill the rodents for freezing... or a vet (but that can be costly). Also if you have a big monitor or tegu, they will gladly eat the baby ball pythons. Its arguably the less humane way, but its nature and things eat other things.
I was wondering if you could talk more about coral glows and where they came from. I have a male that I bought from Tierra de Morelia at the same reptilian expo in Denver you were at in November. He is the most amazing healthy snake. On the plastic container he came in it says, male coral glow 18-cg-m4 8/23/18. 66% PH Pied 50%PH hypo. On the bottom of the label it says, '13 female het pied 2 x '16 male CG DH Pied/hypo 82. I would like to know more and your coral glow is beautiful btw.
Actually it's Caramel Albino bred for 20 years without kinks, some lines have a lot of kinks. Not too sure about Spiders, as far as I know you can't line breed it out and there's always a risk of wobble.
i noticed your albinos eyes and im wondering if shes always been that way because my albinos eyes are like that as well and i can't tell if its normal ? i cant see any stuck eyecaps so the yellow crescent at the top must not be an oil buildup ?
Hey Chris ive been enjoying your videos and have a question for you. If you breed and albino enchi to and albino enchi how will you be able to tell which of the babies is the super and which is just an enchi?
my big female spider has issues with her equallibream when I pick her up but she is fine while on the ground but I do wonder how her little ones will turn out I'll try and remember and I'll record all my incubation temps daily and send you the results but you might have to remind me lol.
I love world of ball pythons but I cant stand that you cant just type in your own genetics and look up pics for the combo. Maybe Im just blind but I only ever seem to view the combos they recommend.
I am about a 15 minute drive to NERD. Honestly I have not seen any of Kevin's Spiders have a wobble. Maybe a slight head tilt at the worst. You figure he started the whole spider morph/ kind of interesting
@@ChrisHardwickanimaladventures They all have a wobble problem. Whether it is a bad one or a small one. And of course, a hatchling coming out of the egg with a bad wobbling will be put to death, while the one with the small wobble will be sold. Problem is, that if the husbandry of the snake is all wrong and with problems, there is a 100% guarantee that that snake that had just a tiny wobble will end up cockscrewing. And breeders don't care to whom they sell their hatchlings to, or how the owners will take care of them, they just sell them and they move on. Hence why it should be forbidden, in my opinion.
Has there been any actual genetic testing done in a lab actually genetic tests are not difficult nor that expensive to do.? Your hypothesis about temps you would have to risk a clutch placing full blooded spiders in different temp zones to test your suppositions.
Great info, are you going to have a contest (name out of a hat or your favorite comment type of contest) when you hit 4,000 subs would be a good way to boost subs and get your name out a little faster. I think your stakes are very healthy and I would be honored to have anything you produce. I've got a couple ball pythons from Brian at BHB, and one from freedom breeder, and would love one of your bamboo morphs in my collection. I've been trying to build my collection with snakes from breeders I think are producing quality. And your snakes definitely meet my expectations. Where can I buy from you?
Everyone has a big problem with wobble even though they thrive and eat but everybody doing big clutch numbers to try to do pandas when 98 percent of those offspring go right in the freezer because there is an actual debilitating problem
U know i have some single gene snakes that are not spiders and if u really look alot of different genes from ball pythons have a little if u really look for it. I even seen normals star gaze a little and i think its mostly that there escape artists and there just looking up to try and climb on something or to get out. Most people read into alot of this stuff. Now im not saying theres nothing wrong with the spider or some other genes. Its like take for instance i have a ball python if u put him in a tub with the clear front to where i can see what hes doing hes fine i get him out and hold him or put him on the ground hes fine,but if i put him in a glass tank he starts to star gaze. Now someone could come over and see that and say hes messed up. But thats the only time he does it. So does he have a defect or is he just rying to escape or just curious thats why i think sometimes people read into some of these things to much
I agree but to some extent u can almost find something a little wrong with every gene in every ball python. Its from all the inbreeding well sorry line breeding. Because really if u think about it no matter where or who u get your snakes from they are all related unless u are getting wild caught imports and even then someone is gonna breed that wild caught import to one of theres they already have. So technically the babies are still gonna have some inbreeding in them. And i do think it was an incubation thing and then it just got passed on over time. Because u gotta figure usually a morph in the wild isnt gonna make it. Let alone a full clutch maybe a couple percent of the babies in the wild actually make it and that is the biggest and strongest and healthiest. So theres usually no defects. But in captivity people are doing all kinds of things different like temperature humidity power feeding to get them up to size to breed. And unless it dies in the egg or cant feed itself. People are still breeding these snakes back to each other and to others. So i think we created any defects that are in the ball pythons no matter what morph combo or gene. It all comes back to us
Yes I like to know you're using XYZ in one of your videos as a place maybe not to buy your snakes but I bought all my snakes from XYZ my name is Paul I subscribed to your website I'm having problems with bumblebee that I just bought from XYZ his head is shedded but the rest of his body did not shed yet soaking him in warm water but you know you cannot keep the snake in water it wants to get out of the bowl what else can I do to help him shed his skin and if I call XYZ again they'll probably tell me that's normal like they told me all ball pythons will E I had to remind them not all ball pythons will eat they are the finicky yeast snake in the whole world
I like to use a coconut husk substrate, helps to keep the humidity up. I'd also suggest not using an overhead heat lamp if you are using one. Once they get stuck in a shed it take a bit of work to get it off, I'd probably soak him for a few minutes every day and maybe wipe gently with a damp paper towel to get the shed off. I usually don't review breeders, that can backfire real quick.
The woma and the spider just seem like the banana and the coral glow. Just different lines i think people jus do that shit jus to try and make there own line and make money. Thats like what morph came out first the banana was first i think then someone made a higher contrast banana and said ill call that a coral glow. And i can make morr money and get more business because i have the worlds first. Its actually kind of bullshit but whatever i love all your vlogs bro. Just wanted to put my two cents worth in
The thing is that I can say I bred spiders for fifty years and 100% of my spiders have had severe head wobble and all corkscrewed 24/7. It doesn't mean I'm telling the truth, and it doesn't mean the guy who said he never threw a wobbler was telling the truth.
My main gripe with all these morphs is the effect its having on captive diversity. Why try to make one species suit all tastes? There are colours and patterns with infinite combinations that naturally occur and we are completely ignoring them. I find it frustrating beyond belief that ball pythons are pushed so hard by breeders, to be honest the trade has to take responsibility for the state of the buisness. Inbreeding a couple of morph lines over and over again, without the introduction of unrelated DNA is simply shortsighted and greedy.
Have to disagree most big breeders bring in new imports of ball python to create new blood lines but it's not talked about because nobody watches or cares about that part of the hobby but I think freedom breeders just did a video on important ball pythons
Yep. Greed. Some breeders are in it simply for the money and it shows. If breeders won’t willingly act responsibly then regulations should be imposed. Self regulate or be regulated. I have no sympathy for greedy breeders.
@@franciscoandrade9180 if the new imported snakes have these specific mutations that means they carry the mutations and they aren't adding genetic diversity
But listen, this is how dog, cat, horse, rat, etc. breeds were created. Breeding should be selective, absolutely, but having multi generations of captive bred animals is ideal for captive animals. This is how a domestic/ pet quality animal is created and produced.
You have to bring in some fresh blood so to speak , because at somepoint all of these snakes will become infertile ....
I'm not a fan of the 'if it eats and breeds, it's healthy' argument, either. I have a pretty good drive and feeding response, but that doesn't mean anything.
Just because it does breed doesn't mean they should breed.
@@guardiansanimalrescuestate7289 take your own advice...please dont breed
Lol, you are far more complex than a snake
How are your sheds? Any stuck sheds that require you having to take a shower?
@@guardiansanimalrescuestate7289 We can see in your what your issue is
I think if breeders stopped breeding animals with genetic defects that would resolve the issue. The same with responsible dog breeders
Nice high horse I’ve never seen one like that
Cat breeders as well. Quite a few cat breeds with issues too. (Jan Griffiths).
Why take a chance of even a 50 percent chance of it having problems. All these morphs are ridiculous. And I've seen many cass of inbreeding with snakes. Like what the heck.
I suspect that the woma, hidden gene woma, and spider genes are all similar in their mechanism (i.e. have some effect on neural crest migration) . Hence their similar visual phenotypes. It’s probably why combinations with these genes are so variable in appearance... because random migration of cells and/or non-genetic variables can effect the ultimate appearance of the snake.
Champagne and the others seem to be some different mechanism. But even with those, we do note that several of them are also pattern-altering mutations. I do believe that pattern-altering mutations may carry a higher risk of having defects associated with the morph. (Because is the snake’s development is messed up on the inside, it’s possible that it’s pattern may be likewise “messed up”-looking compared to a normal)
All three were produced by the same breeder.
I believe that basically all 3 of them come from the same line, a variation of the same gene kind of.
Cry me a river. Self regulate or be regulated. The love of money is the root of all evil.
To eliminate having too many variables, you'd really need to split clutches between the two incubation temperature zones so that the only difference is the temperature and not the breeding. This would be really interesting to test out.
I recently lost my favorite BP (the very first one i ever owned, before i knew anything) who was a woma. Very small male, despite weekly feedings he never got over 700g> He had a kinked spine and a slight wobble. Chubbs was my very special boy and a complete puppy dog. I used to bring him to local petstores and community centers to help children interact with an extremely docile snake so they wouldn't be afraid :).
Love your vids!
Sorry to hear of your loss...
I’m new to breeding ball pythons n I just can’t bring myself to get a spider , they’re such a cool snake and you can make some amazing combos but it’s just not right to breed knowing your potentially gonna have these snakes harmed and deformed with defects , but keep up the good work , I do love what u do 👍🏻 keep it up
Yes, Spiders can be a bittersweet project.
Chris Hardwick definitely, but as long as you and your snakes , and in that case for any breeder or owner , are happy then I do wish for people to stop the hate and just understand as breeders you love these animals and would never wish harm to any of them, but 100% support everything yous do and hope for best 🤘🏻
Sable doesn't have to be in it's super form to have wobble. I've got a sable lemonblast that is 20x worse than all of my spiders combined.
Thank you for the upload I was wondering about defective genes an didn't know some combos was deadly
its so stupid just breed enchis and pinstripes they look similar but dont have any issues. the morph isnt even unique enough to try to breed out the defect
Most people will buy snakes not knowing about the defects. I picked up a lot before I really knew what I was doing.
Always enjoy your content, you deserve more subs!
My personal opinion on the breeding is that laws should not be put into place limiting it. We are beginning to produce amazing varieties of animals! Its basically like when selective breeding happened to dogs ancestors.
DizzleMCSTANG88 and look what a mess we made of them. Almost every pedigree breed is predisposed to its own set of health problems, with serious impacts on their welfare. Aesthetic appeal should never be a basis for breeding selection.
Yes and look what has happened. The integrity of the breeds r gone many times.
Yeah, like bulldogs who can't deliver puppies without a C-section, pugs with smashed faces so bad they can't breathe, dachshunds with back problems, you think these are OK? And that's just a few examples; there are many more. (Jan Griffiths).
Wobble or no wobble, not a fan of the spider gene. It reminds me of really chapped lips that you can get here in Colorado. And it just makes me uncomfortable. LoL no clue why...
Lol
I’m from Taiwan,my friend told me u made lots of good videos,thank u so much,I have learned so much useful things from u
Was just thinking about this after your last video Chris. Glad to see someone sharing the other genetic issues in ball python breeding!
Thank you Chris for providing great content on your channel. You are such a talented guy.
The hypothesis is the spider gene is not just a gene that affects pattern, but rather causes an error in the neural crest during embryonic growth. The neural crest is responsible for depositing pigment as well as making sure neurons end up in the correct places. The spider morph affects where the pigment is deposited, giving it that typical drippy look, but at the same time prevents neurons from migrating to their normal places in the body thusly causing the neurological disorder. It is a dominant gene, therefore it cannot be carried, so the only individuals at risk for wobble are those with the visual characteristics of the spider morph or other specific genes.
Wow light bulb moment everything you said makes sense like the white colour in the eggs and it would be very interesting to see if temperature would make a difference. Love your posts keep them coming your a lovely chap paula England
I have always been of the mind that it's not a genome that is exclusive to spider morphs. I have seen normals with head wobbles in LPS.
Always LOVE your content and your demeanor! I don't even own snakes but enjoy you.
-For the spider incubation ive kept it between 85-87 not and higher and my spiders came out no wobble at all .. redoing the combo this season at the same temps will keep you posted
If it truly has something to do with environmental factors instead of biological then that would be great and I would feel better about those snakes being bred, I like what you said about more research needing to be done I wish it would be thoroughly investigated into all of these different morphs to find out exactly what it is that causes these issues so we can end the debate and hopefully save these beautiful animals from issues like this in the future so that none of these beautiful animals have to have this issue! If u find out more please post I'd love to find out as much as possible!
Raising my first Spider male and got him as a baby and the snake doesn't display any head wobble unless the snake gets stressed out or feels intimidated or threatened and I can stop that motor skill reaction by resting my hand over the front of the snake (now at 8 months old) and he will calm right down !!! Definitely neurological damage that is enhanced by stress !!!
I really enjoy your enthusiam.
Great video with good information in it. That little albino pattern was pretty sweet &
Kevin at NERD believes there is a super spider, brian barczyk made a video where he visits kevin and they both discuss the possibility of a super pinstripe and a super spider, kevin believes he has a super spider and brian actually bred what he believes to be a super pinstripe, they dont look any different but brian bred his 'super pinstripe; 3 years running and got nothing but pinstripe combos?? Interesting.
Wow I loved your video! You’re really an intelligent guy. I am happy youtube recommended tour spider video to me and now this one! I will subscribe for sure. By the way thank you for putting in all the time with the pictures and the research. I’ve always known about the head wobble but never put two and two together to realize all snakes with that gene might have issues as well. Thanks again
Glad you like my channel, thanks for subscribing!
Hey Chris I just bought a spider python back like 2 months ago and it does not have a wobble it's actually moving perfectly fine. by the way like your videos doing great keep it up!!!
Give it time and let us know of a change if it occurs.
Did a anything ever change? I’ve had mine for 5 years and the last 3 years I’ve just seen him get worse it’s so bad now he eats upside down
Very informative video, Thanks again 😀
I personally would avoid the wobbly genes because there really isn’t an answer that’s set in stone. With some snakes, they’re totally fine and don’t have any issues. With others, they can’t get from end of their enclosure to the other without freaking out. I’d play it safe
awesome video as always
The biggest problem with the spider is that it’s unpredictable. Some snakes may have no wobble, some have a slight tremor and some can’t even eat on their own- and this can worsen or get better as they age. That’s why personally I don’t think it should be bred because you don’t know how it will affect the snake. You might sale someone a spider morph with no wobble and then a year later it has one.
My spider male who's at least 13 did not have a wobble when he was young, I bought him as a 3 year old. As he got closer to 10 he developed the wobble. Started as an excited head Bob for food and has developed into a full out corkscrew. I have 2 champagnes no wobble.
I have a champ pastel female who developed wobble after she laid her first clutch at 2 years old. Hers isn't bad, but it's there. She still gets her food on the first strike, and eats very well. She's retired from breeding. She's 7 years old. (Jan Griffiths).
Oh one more thing, I've been watching your channel for about 1.5 months now and it's great, keep it up
Mine dont have head wobble but does like to go upside down when climbing
Sometimes they will do that.
I have a super cinnamon ghi I'm confident has some issues it's almost like she's blind ill pull her out of the tank and she strikes 9/10 times at the heat lamp all on one strike when I feed her its the same issue she strikes crazy until I get her mouth too hit it its odd have you had or seen any issues like this??
Is there any difference between the Carmel and the Carmel Albino or is that someone is speaking in abbreviation?
i been breeding morphs since 2003 and that's random. you cant fix it and Chris in my personal opinion you breed what you wanna and what you like it.
Sad
@@ijustdontcareanymore1022 your opinion
Great video very informative!
Really interesting info here! One thing I will point out is the banana/coral glow "defect" is actually not a true defect. This was something that was only recently (~2-3 years ago) discovered, so a lot of breeders/forums aren't familiar with it yet, but pythons' and boas' sex chromosomes are X and Y, just like us, but not what most other snakes have, which is Z and W, which is what boas and pythons were assumed to have until very recently. With Z and W, ZZ means male and ZW means female, in contrast to XX meaning female and XY meaning male. With the Z/W sex chromosomes, the banana gene and its link to sex -- males only being able to produce one sex with the banana gene (male-makers or female-makers), and the females being able to produce both -- didn't make any sense, and so people assumed the gene was "wonky" and there might be some chromosomal defect with that morph. Now that we know they are actually X/Y, this gene makes sense: the gene can be attached to either the X or the Y chromosome (or both in the case of supers), which is why the males can only produce one sex with the trait (all the others being normals), and females being able to pass it half the time to either sex (half the time she'll pass on the X chromosome with the gene, the other half she'll pass on the X chromosome without it). Clint's Reptiles made a video about this, which I'll link below. I feel like it's really important for people to be aware of, because without knowing this information, people think there is something "wrong" with this gene, when that isn't the case at all, the gene is just linked to sex chromosomes.
czcams.com/video/VjEiGnMYFdA/video.html
I agree, not a defect just different LOL
Spider champagne is also leathal. Super cypress has wobble. Banana _____ makers can throw the opposite gender banana, it’s about a 10% chance.
If someone aquires a spider that had no wobble is there any chance that it could develop it later on? I'm new to pythons.
Yes.
Especially if the snake gets stressed out, it is a 100% guarantee.
PS, every spider has a wobble, it is just not that visible. Don't believe what breeders say that some spiders don't have a wobble.
That's because everybody bread a spider to make those different ones Champagnes and all the other ones I have some type of spider Gene in it
Very interesting.
Upsetting
The spider’s head wobble reminds me of myself after 1 too many drinks. Perfect snake for me
Great video thanks! I’ve been showing and breeding dogs since I was a kid. I’ve had Schipperkes for the last 20 years. While the breed isn’t rare, there’s not a lot of them in the US and thus, not a ton of genetic diversity. We do have genetic testing available for a number of health issues, but epilepsy remains a big issue. Everyone has their theories, genetic, environmental, a combo of both.... etc. We’ve had balls for over 25 years and recently decided we’d like to try and hatch out a clutch or 2. I’m learning what I can about genetics, but WOW! So many morphs. With my background- I would love to see a registration program and pedigree databases. I know, pretty much impossible at this point, but would be so nice to make more informed breeding choices resulting in healthier animals..... for responsible breeders anyway. But responsible breeding is a whole other topic. 😆 Thanks again!
Yes, breeding ball pythons is awesome!
I would like to see that as well. As a small hobby breeder, I do keep pedigree records on the snakes I produce. However, I can only go back as far as grandparents at best, and most times not even that far. I don't use a number system---I use the snake's name and morph. (Jan Griffiths).
Wow I have a champagne and never knew about that, mine doesn't show head wobble but does act much different then my other ball pythons
Oh, man, I thought it was spiders with this issue, holy crap! I maybe a future Ball Python mom and I've been really picky and trying to stay away from Spiders for the wooble defect. Nothing wrong with Spiders I just don't want that kinda stress as a new mom. But dang... more babies to worry about to narrow down my choices, yikes!!! 😨
I hope you get people for this project, not only for science, but for future Balls as well. 🐍❤
I wanted a white snake and came across one but sadly it was a Pied Spider, tho he is comepletely white and the seller said she doesen't notice a wobble, I will also see the Snake in person, what do you think? (Note they seller is NOT a breeder, she keept him as a pet herself)
I have a white one with a bad wobble, still a beautiful snake!
I bought a spider, having no clue what all it meant. She may have a slight wobble but she's the sweetest snake I've ever handled. Even my two year old daughter can handle her without issue.
Most spiders are fine, even a small head wobble is no problem.
@@ChrisHardwickanimaladventures that's been my experience thus far. She eats fine, tho it sometimes takes a comical amount of time for her to find the head after restricting. My second ball python is kinda showing me how normal the spider is.
I'm looking at picking up a couple of female Bumble Bee (Pastel, Spider) TSK Axanthics off Morph Market, I've seen this co dominant morph in a lot of Axanthic snakes. JDC has Spider in many of thier lines. They even have one for ten grand that is Spider, GHI, Clown and Axanthic. Primo looking snake. I guess my question is would you buy two snakes sight unseen that are spiders? Or not take the chance? (Plan to breed with my TSK Axanthic Pastel male)
I'd ask about how the wobble is, could be fine. Spider is great in combos, a lot don't wobble.
@@ChrisHardwickanimaladventures I asked and they said the mother with the spider trait came from JDC and they don't have any wobble even when feeding. Went ahead and pulled the trigger. Thanks Chris! Wouldn't have thought to ask unless I saw your video.
The person who said they never had a wobble msy not be being 100% honest. Think the only way to be sure of ur theory is doing it yourself or using very well know repertable breeders for your data
I tend to agree, but there is the * that goes with maybe there are some set of conditions that minimizes it and said person has lived within those set of conditions. So hard to say. I have 2 spider combos in my collection at the moment. One is wobble free and really great, other is all over the place like its drunk.
If the person has bred spiders for as long as he said- and had never seen a wobble, I’d say he’s not paying enough attention to his animals.
I doubt he not paying attention I've had lesser spider male without the wobble and he produced spiders without the wobble it's all line breeding most breeders have spiders with low to no wobble what keeps the wobble going is new breeders that breed spiders sold as pets and produce a wobble and then sell them cheap and it gives everybody a bad name
As a breeder, if you do have an abnormal offspring how do you humanely cull them ? How soon after hatching do you see the defects. Sorry about that I just found a post where you deal with my question, I just found your videos,
I usually will cull them immediately. Most defects you'll see immediately. As to the how? Ideal way is to either find a rodent breeder that has a chamber that they use to kill the rodents for freezing... or a vet (but that can be costly). Also if you have a big monitor or tegu, they will gladly eat the baby ball pythons. Its arguably the less humane way, but its nature and things eat other things.
Co2 chambers. Had to use them for baby rats. @@nhlpa17
I was wondering if you could talk more about coral glows and where they came from. I have a male that I bought from Tierra de Morelia at the same reptilian expo in Denver you were at in November. He is the most amazing healthy snake. On the plastic container he came in it says, male coral glow 18-cg-m4 8/23/18. 66% PH Pied 50%PH hypo. On the bottom of the label it says, '13 female het pied 2 x '16 male CG DH Pied/hypo 82. I would like to know more and your coral glow is beautiful btw.
Also- the individual who had bred spiders for 20 years with no wobble, do you have any other data from him? His incubation temps? Any line breeding?
Actually it's Caramel Albino bred for 20 years without kinks, some lines have a lot of kinks. Not too sure about Spiders, as far as I know you can't line breed it out and there's always a risk of wobble.
i noticed your albinos eyes and im wondering if shes always been that way because my albinos eyes are like that as well and i can't tell if its normal ? i cant see any stuck eyecaps so the yellow crescent at the top must not be an oil buildup ?
Can these defects occur in any morphs or it only happens with these specific morphs???
The spider is a beautiful snake I have 3 of them 2 males and 1 female all adults
Hey Chris ive been enjoying your videos and have a question for you. If you breed and albino enchi to and albino enchi how will you be able to tell which of the babies is the super and which is just an enchi?
The super enchi will have a more reduced pattern and the head pattern would be reduce where it joins the neck pattern also like a cap
Has such a bright yellow
Hey Chris I have what I believe is a lesser combo do you think you can help me identify the gene?
Upload a photo somewhere and post a link in the comments section under any video and I'll check it out.
my big female spider has issues with her equallibream when I pick her up but she is fine while on the ground but I do wonder how her little ones will turn out I'll try and remember and I'll record all my incubation temps daily and send you the results but you might have to remind me lol.
I love world of ball pythons but I cant stand that you cant just type in your own genetics and look up pics for the combo. Maybe Im just blind but I only ever seem to view the combos they recommend.
I would love to purchase a snake from you there amazing 👍🏻🙂
I’m getting me male banana spider Enchi ball python is that a good thing or not
Getting a new snake is always a good thing!
Chris Hardwick okay thank you and you have a really great collection of snakes
If it is a neurological disorder doesn’t that make u wonder what other issues might b going on in the snake??!!!
What about a Spider Banana BP?
That's the reason why I don't want no spider ball python or nothing with spider
that head bob tho
I am about a 15 minute drive to NERD. Honestly I have not seen any of Kevin's Spiders have a wobble. Maybe a slight head tilt at the worst. You figure he started the whole spider morph/ kind of interesting
I think 90% of Spiders are OK, it's the the bad ones that get the bad rap.
@@ChrisHardwickanimaladventures They all have a wobble problem. Whether it is a bad one or a small one. And of course, a hatchling coming out of the egg with a bad wobbling will be put to death, while the one with the small wobble will be sold. Problem is, that if the husbandry of the snake is all wrong and with problems, there is a 100% guarantee that that snake that had just a tiny wobble will end up cockscrewing. And breeders don't care to whom they sell their hatchlings to, or how the owners will take care of them, they just sell them and they move on.
Hence why it should be forbidden, in my opinion.
Has there been any actual genetic testing done in a lab actually genetic tests are not difficult nor that expensive to do.? Your hypothesis about temps you would have to risk a clutch placing full blooded spiders in different temp zones to test your suppositions.
No one would fund that research
Hallo
I have a super sable femail with out head wobble thing and eat every meal i offer her.
Great info, are you going to have a contest (name out of a hat or your favorite comment type of contest) when you hit 4,000 subs would be a good way to boost subs and get your name out a little faster. I think your stakes are very healthy and I would be honored to have anything you produce. I've got a couple ball pythons from Brian at BHB, and one from freedom breeder, and would love one of your bamboo morphs in my collection. I've been trying to build my collection with snakes from breeders I think are producing quality. And your snakes definitely meet my expectations. Where can I buy from you?
Hes on morphmarket now under his name
Wonder why they do that? Male / FEMALE maker STUFF-!!!
I hate it when I'm first because I just got a glitch where it produced two of my one comment I made.
I can only see one comment of yours:)
Oh how old is Lucy
She is about 3-4 years old.
Everyone has a big problem with wobble even though they thrive and eat but everybody doing big clutch numbers to try to do pandas when 98 percent of those offspring go right in the freezer because there is an actual debilitating problem
U know i have some single gene snakes that are not spiders and if u really look alot of different genes from ball pythons have a little if u really look for it. I even seen normals star gaze a little and i think its mostly that there escape artists and there just looking up to try and climb on something or to get out. Most people read into alot of this stuff. Now im not saying theres nothing wrong with the spider or some other genes. Its like take for instance i have a ball python if u put him in a tub with the clear front to where i can see what hes doing hes fine i get him out and hold him or put him on the ground hes fine,but if i put him in a glass tank he starts to star gaze. Now someone could come over and see that and say hes messed up. But thats the only time he does it. So does he have a defect or is he just rying to escape or just curious thats why i think sometimes people read into some of these things to much
I think it really shows in the severe cases, hard to tell if they just have a little head wobble.
I agree but to some extent u can almost find something a little wrong with every gene in every ball python. Its from all the inbreeding well sorry line breeding. Because really if u think about it no matter where or who u get your snakes from they are all related unless u are getting wild caught imports and even then someone is gonna breed that wild caught import to one of theres they already have. So technically the babies are still gonna have some inbreeding in them. And i do think it was an incubation thing and then it just got passed on over time. Because u gotta figure usually a morph in the wild isnt gonna make it. Let alone a full clutch maybe a couple percent of the babies in the wild actually make it and that is the biggest and strongest and healthiest. So theres usually no defects. But in captivity people are doing all kinds of things different like temperature humidity power feeding to get them up to size to breed. And unless it dies in the egg or cant feed itself. People are still breeding these snakes back to each other and to others. So i think we created any defects that are in the ball pythons no matter what morph combo or gene. It all comes back to us
Do you think it would be safe genetically to breed my male super enchi champagne male to my albino female and my albino pinstripe female?
Yes
Super woma ball from nerd is lethal
Yes I like to know you're using XYZ in one of your videos as a place maybe not to buy your snakes but I bought all my snakes from XYZ my name is Paul I subscribed to your website I'm having problems with bumblebee that I just bought from XYZ his head is shedded but the rest of his body did not shed yet soaking him in warm water but you know you cannot keep the snake in water it wants to get out of the bowl what else can I do to help him shed his skin and if I call XYZ again they'll probably tell me that's normal like they told me all ball pythons will E I had to remind them not all ball pythons will eat they are the finicky yeast snake in the whole world
I like to use a coconut husk substrate, helps to keep the humidity up. I'd also suggest not using an overhead heat lamp if you are using one. Once they get stuck in a shed it take a bit of work to get it off, I'd probably soak him for a few minutes every day and maybe wipe gently with a damp paper towel to get the shed off. I usually don't review breeders, that can backfire real quick.
The woma and the spider just seem like the banana and the coral glow. Just different lines i think people jus do that shit jus to try and make there own line and make money. Thats like what morph came out first the banana was first i think then someone made a higher contrast banana and said ill call that a coral glow. And i can make morr money and get more business because i have the worlds first. Its actually kind of bullshit but whatever i love all your vlogs bro. Just wanted to put my two cents worth in
I think you are right!
Cool I learned what I should not try to do
The thing is that I can say I bred spiders for fifty years and 100% of my spiders have had severe head wobble and all corkscrewed 24/7. It doesn't mean I'm telling the truth, and it doesn't mean the guy who said he never threw a wobbler was telling the truth.
so all of em should be banned than