My Stonemaier Games Top Design Regrets
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- čas přidán 6. 07. 2024
- In today’s video I’m going to discuss the one mechanical element in each of our games that I would change if I could go back in time. I’ll note these in chronological order of release.
00:00 - Introduction
01:20 - Viticulture
03:35 - Euphoria
05:07 - Between Two Cities
06:32 - Scythe
09:54 - Charterstone
13:11 - My Little Scythe
14:26 - Between Two Castles
15:27 - Wingspan
16:55 - Tapestry
19:25 - Pendulum
21:03 - Red Rising
22:42 - Rolling Realms
24:15 - Libertalia
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Intro animation by Jeff Payne vimeo.com/jaaronpayne and video proofing by Cody Simonsen - Hry
Mad respect to you for being self critical and it shows your ego does not get in the way when it comes to creating the best games you possibly can.
it's so great to hear those thoughts from the designer himself, thank you!
I love your transparency and honesty in your video (and videos). I own many if your games and love what you do. Thank you for what you do and stand for.
I really respect this kind of video. To look at your own work and see things that could be better is a good character trait
Scythe is definitely one where we love it so much, we have marathon games; some as long as 3 hours, each of my wife and I holding up on playing the last star, until we have had our "fill." We just love getting more and more territory, and very rarely even engage in battle. I never even put out the battle wheels. For Wingspan, while we get the difference between "when" and "if" activated, we find that newer gamers keep asking if they have to do the power of the card. "If" would have been a little bit clearer.
This video was awesome! Great insights and a look into the design process!
No! I love the way players add workers in Scythe. It’s perfect! It seems completely natural that production costs more when there are more workers, just as it makes sense that more is produced with a stronger/larger workforce.
Plus it really fits the theme. For that time, period, in a place of war, workers feel like they should be considered resources. Maybe it’s just me, but I wouldn’t change it at all.
yes, workers eco managment is one of the remarkable systems in Scythe, it fits the setting perfectly
Wow! What an excellent set of insights into your game design process. I have to admit, I'm probably going to adopt all of these "regrets" into the Stonemaier games that I own (Scythe, Tapestry, and Wingspan). Thank you for always looking to make your already terrific games better!
Jamie, I can't tell you how helpful and inspiring that was. I, as do many, look up to you as a designer and striving for perfection can, in a paradoxical way, lead to stagnation. To see that everyone looks back and regrets, thinks of the changes they could have made and still can create and be involved with such great work... I loved the vid, plain and simple. Thank you
Always a pleasure to enjoy your games and the insights you provide in these videos. They're very enjoyable and informative to watch. Thanks.
Great video! Very thoughtful and honest look at some amazing games.
Thanks for making this video!
One of my favorite questions when I'm interviewing is to ask them what they'd do differently when looking back at a big project they worked on. No matter if the project was really successful, the introspective individuals I want on my team still have details and circumstances that they'd tweak or handle differently.
great discussion topic Jamey!
Re: When/If activated in Wingspan
I was making that mistake constantly in the beginning and only noticed it when playing the Switch version that these actions are indeed optional. But I guess that one was on me for not reading the rules thoroughly enough. 😅
Great source for house rules!
I wouldn't necessarily go that far unless I've recommended an official variant. Of course, if a house rule makes a game more fun for your group, go for it! :)
I really appreciate the Red Rising variant. I think that helps a lot!
And I am so glad you created Pendulum the way it is. It may not be as popular as some of your other games, but it is my number one game of all time! I think it is an amazing design!
I suggested a video like this a while back. Thanks for making it!
Love that someone is willing to be this open with their or their companies designs. I think most design differences I could definitely think of pros and cons and don't think any of them are super huge. I think I will do drawing 2 Civs in Tapestry from now on though!
Super excited for the Nesting Box and the Asia Expansion for Wingspan!
Thank you for this! Really interesting hearing your thoughts and what the idea behind certain choices were. Scythe remains one of my favorite games :)
Very insightful to hear about some of the improvements that could be made, especially seeing that a simple word change like if and when can make such a difference.
Thank you for sharing this. For me trying to building my designer career is helpful to learn with your videos!
This is an excellent rundown, Jamey. So cool to see you being this open with your design and products.
Also, I don't know if this is a new camera or lighting but it finally looks good! :-)
This was a great list. Thank you for sharing these regrets.
Very humbling of you to do this. Definitely shows how designers are always learning although I haven't seen any other designer do this sort of video. Maybe Vaccarino with his Dominion diaries.
Before I bought the Tuscany Expansion we used to play 2P Viticulture using the solo mode bonus action token rule allowing the bonus action to be taken if you are the first player to get your worker on an action space by spending a glass token acquired earlier from the wake-up chart. This worked a treat!
Super interesting insights :) Thanks.
Thanks for this always good to hear what a Devloper thinks of their hit games after reflecting on them!
It's so great you took time to do this. Charterstone is still - and always will be - one of the most fun game experiences I've ever had, so it was interesting what you said about that one in particular. I don't have any questions, just saying thanks.
I'm flattered to hear that, and I'm so glad that Charterstone brought you joy. :)
You’re so right about “If/when activated” in Wingspan - especially as it’s become such a Gateway, the comms need to be super-clear.
As I sit here in Newark waiting for my 3rd-in-a-row delayed United flight I wonder what the world would be like if more product designers and developers were so transparent about their products as Jamie is in this video. This is hands down my favorite of his many videos. What a daring gift to make a video which helps the rest of us designers better learn how to be productively critical of our own games; games which may at some point compete with his own games. Bravo and thank you for showing us how to be gracious designers for when/if our games succeed.
Thanks John!
I love this video and your channel as a whole! I don't know if you're big into video games or not, but Masahiro Sakurai (big game dev) has a channel where he talks about designing video games and has all sorts of random insights and knowledge. He feels similar to you, top of their industry, and passionate about what you do with an extreme attention to detail. Thank you for being such an open designer, and for continuing to share your passion. I've always loved Stonemaier games, and will continue to support your amazing games! You rock!
Thanks for the recommendation! I don't play many video games, but I do research them quite a bit (for lessons to apply to tabletop game design), so I'll check out Masahiro's channel.
Something I wish you could do in Wingspan. We love Everdell, and of course as another beautifully designed tableau/engine-building game it's impossible not to find/miss cross-over mechanisms that make each game great. But, in Everdell, it's great that you are able to play a critter/construction from the Meadow, and not just draw and add it to your hand. I wish you could pay-to-play a card that's available to draw.
Interesting thoughts on Scythe. I love the sudden ending actually, so many games have a final turn after the end condition is reached. But the way Scythe ends really keeps you on your toes and it’s so satisfying if you’re the one to do it.
The worker production thing is interesting. It kind of makes sense but the current way is also pretty great. The design of the player boards is really just brilliantly self explanatory in my experience.
Another commenter brought up river walk, I have to agree it’s a pretty bizarre rule, and really hard to make any thematic sense out of. But in practice it works pretty well. I love how the factions and the map are designed together, and how many little secret touches most players won’t notice until quite a few games.
I find analyzing the shortcomings of my games and slowly solving those problems is the most compelling part of game design.
This video is another reason why I admire you and your videos-it takes courage to admit regrets. I’m a big fan of Scythe and Viticulture and wondered about the things you brought up there. I only sell grapes to try to somehow convert to points at the very end. One thing we always have to look up is what happens at the end of the final year and also about bonuses on the area control map when moving. As for Scythe-love it-the produce and trade were hard to distinguish at first. But who am I to nit pick? Looking forward to playing more of these and more of your other designs.
That's good to know! I always try to eliminate anything that requires a rules reference, and it's helpful to know the things like that I missed.
The worker/enlist change is a fascinating thought experiment because if you had 6 workers to enlist, it would change a number of things:
1) You probably don’t want the production track to have extra costs since you’re already using food to make workers.
2) You’d have to find a new way for players to get the enlist bonuses (I think one possibility could be that if you max out a bottom row action you get a bonus whenever anyone else does it, or maybe it’s tied to structures or even upgrades)
3) Village hexes are now completely blank spaces and so could either produce another resource, coins, be extra encounter spaces, and/or rearrange some parts of the map.
4) Without villages there would need to be an intuitive place for workers to spawn. Letting them spawn with another worker would actually make producing resources a lot faster since you wouldn’t need the extra move to move your workers from the village.
It’s a simple change on the surface but it would have a bunch of play ramifications that may end up being an overall improvement or detriment. It’s hard to say. I wouldn’t mind play tearing it tbh
These are great points! I agree that it isn't a simple change, and I'm happy with the way it worked out. I can just see why it's confusing for new players.
Stonemaier is the best publisher, everything is well thought and I love the designs, the miniatures and box inserts. But red rising still didn't catch me as I wish it did. I find it hard to add cards to hand. thanks for all the games and keep up the good job. Love Tapestry, Scythe and viticulture.
Good reflections. Keep learning.
Ha! That Wingspan rule you mentioned is something I've had to explain to almost every first-time player. And I love the idea about a new endgame condition for Scythe. That sudden ending was not very popular in my primary group.
This was really kool. Wish all designers would look back at their games and have a similar discussion. It's very interesting. Also designer house rules for a variety of games not just their own. Lol that would be really kool too.
Great video. I think a cool follow up would be to look at the most popular “unofficial” variants the SM fan base has come up for various games and explain why those design choices might be detrimental or antithetical to the original design.
Absolutely love scythe. We are currently playing rise of fenris which is amazing as well, one of my favorite campaigns in any game.
I actually like the way the game ends.
The one thing I would much appreciate is a balance patch, I think it could much improve the game. Of course you can look for house rules, but an official “patch”, that would also be implemented I to the digital version would be so great.
Great video Mr. Stegmaier! This was a very interesting topic, thanks for sharing =) I’ve finally started trying to design a game so it was intriguing to hear some of your regrets as things to keep in mind. Here are my tiny nitpicks with the SM games:
Viticulture: I usually hate a race to points, that’s possibly my least favorite end game trigger, but I don’t mind it as much here. My biggest nitpick with the game has actually since been fixed with an expansion, I believe Moore Visitors. I didn’t like how easy it was to score with cards. When you’re playing a heavy get grapes, crush em into wine, get sales, then someone wins with card play? It didn’t feel good.
Euphoria: This is the one I haven’t played in the longest, I usually play every SM game a few times a year, this hasn’t hit the table in a bit though. So it escapes a nitpick because I don’t remember any!
Between Two Cities: I don’t know if anyone would agree on this, but I tend to use this as a game that is what I call “Too balanced.” Every time I play this game it ends with multiple ties. I’ve even played where all five of us tied for the same score. The first time it seemed cool, like “Wow! I bet this is super rare!” It’s happened multiple times though. I picked up Capitals though, I’m hoping that will change this.
Scythe: For me personally? None. It’s one of my few picks for perfect game, anyone reading this should get it! Get it now!
Charterstone: Super small but I don’t like that when it’s finished, there are essentially spots on the board that now do nothing.
My Little Scythe: Lost the My Little Pony theme. It would have been a perfect theme to pull out and play with kids, and pull out to force my guy friends to play!
Between Two Castles: I’ve only played twice so far but I love it! Fixed my complaint with Cities by offering pretty different choices and scoring. Love how the expansion fits perfectly into the game and the trays!
Wingspan: Another 10/10 for me but… I really disliked the nectar from the expansion. It made it feel like “Get nectar” WAS the game now. But that’s an expansion so still a 10. Also, it doesn’t have Mandarin Ducks. It needs a male and a female Mandarin duck card because they look so different. You know what? 9.9 till we get our Mandarin ducks!
Tapestry: Everything you mentioned. Still do enjoy the game a ton though.
Pendulum: Haven’t tried it yet! I wonder if the timers would help prevent certain people from having AP though? Could be a good thing!
Red Rising: I haven’t had the issue you mentioned pop up yet… I’m very happy with Red Rising though. I love Fantasy Realms, but because it ends too soon with more players I only play it at 2. I enjoy Red Rising at any player count AND you made a beefier game out of it! I would love if you did something similar with the card play of Sea of Clouds.
Rolling Realms: Played 4 times so far, no complaints yet!
Libertalia: The art change. I do like cutesy art it doesn’t bother me, but this was another chance to have a really cool art style SM game like Scythe.
I’m a huge fan of these games obviously so nothing that makes the game dislikable! I have been pleased with every purchase and look forward to more!
Thank you for continuing to be an iterative designer Jamey. I really appreciate content like this as a fledgling designer and getting to see continuous improvement is welcomed.
That said, I now very badly want to try a variant for the buy grapes rule on Viticulture. How would you approach it? Cost of the grape is the age of the grape or just the 1/2/3 that the sell provides?
Love the image overlays that were suggested in the previous videos. Won’t say it was because of me, but it sure looked nice!
I’m surprised you didn’t talk about RusViet in Scythe as a regret!
I'd put that in a special category. I don't regret designing Scythe based on Jakub's 1920+ alternate history (which was originally based on an actual war that happened between Poland and Russia in the 1920s).
@@jameystegmaier My apologies, I didn’t mean regret in the context of using Russia. I meant regret in the context of it having a banned combination with Industrial!
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
@@AWarner1690 Ah, I see! Yes, I would have preferred to have caught the Rusviet/Industrial issue earlier.
I think “If activated” would definitely be the way to go, since it would need no changes in the graphic design because it takes less space and it has the two advantages you mentioned: helping making it clear that the abilities are optional and that these are not activated when you play the card. It is a bit late to implement that, though, because the expansions would get that wording as well and some people might end up with both versions, which would be confusing.
From the standpoint of someone who really enjoys game design, it's really neat to see how you added "fixes" or variants into future expansions. It seems very common that board game expansions "fix" issues in the base game, and it's not really a bad thing. After all, it's nearly impossible to thoroughly play test a game until you can sell thousands of copies and really let the mass "play testing" begin. And from what I've seen from Stonemaier games, the first editions are really quite solid!
Also, I'm intrigued by your thoughts on Pendulum. From our experience, Pendulum really works best with the timers. We found the "non-timer" version a little clunky and we believe it scared off some of our new players because it didn't fully deliver what the game is meant to be. The being said, learning to play in real-time can be a steep learning curve for anyone. As such, it hasn't seen near as many new players as it truly deserves. I personally would love to see more games with elements of simultaneous play (timer free), which obviously comes with its own challenges.
I really enjoy Pendulum with timers as it starts to feel like a “rhythm game” which feels good with the right crowd. That said I’ve never tried to bring it out in public because I just assume most people won’t want to try it.
One thing I would add to Pendulum are hard mode and easy mode timers. Everyone’s comfort level is different and one group might find they’re sitting and waiting too long while another feels like they need more time. I could see a promo pack with timers at different lengths that could help scale the game for those that enjoyed the timers but felt like the length was off.
I love tuning in and always am very interested in what you have to say, BUT 60% of me tunes in for the cat :)
I like "if activated" mostly to differentiate from "When Played". When I have taught this game, that is always the hang up with newer players. They want to activate their abilities when they are playing bird to their mat... every. single. time. I'm not sure if switching "When" to "If" would totally fix it, but it's at least a different word which would help.
I'm also really interested in your Tapestry tweaks. I think the draw 2, keep 1 for Civs would go a long way toward making M12 feel worth it. It's just such a crap shoot at the moment... though I know you are proposing updates to the language for gaining Civs midgame which might fix the issue.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts.
More content like this please, this is pretty interesting.
Check out my "Tales from Production" video series--it's very similar to this. :)
My husband and I are HUGE fans of all your games!!! We especially love Pendulum. The timers make it so unique from other games we have that it's one of our most played!
Thanks Emily! I'm happy to hear that. :)
Awesome video, thank you so much! I love hearing your perspective and regrets on your own games that you've designed and/or developed. One thing about Pendulum: I, personally, am into real time games and I love eurogames, so when I saw Stonemaier was combining the two, I thought that was so freaking cool! So rts wasn't an issue for me but I do wish there was more theming in the game. I feel like Stonemaier is so great at connecting their mechanisms to their themes even in eurogames but Pendulum didn't quite feel like it had a theme. Or if it did, I wasn't sure what it was or how the mechanisms tied into it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I didn't feel the purpose of why I was doing the things I was doing in the game
I totally hear that, Matthew. There's definitely a big cognitive dissonance between what you're doing in the game and what it represents.
Love the timers in pendulum
That no bonuses for 1-2 players for Viticulture baffled me forever. Now I know the intent. For Tapestry, you just helped me create two house rules. I was curious if the imbalance of the civs would come up.
Good to hear internal monologues after time has gone on--
This was a really great video! Very interesting. Also, I think I will house rule your Scythe regret next time I play; that’s a really good change. 🙂
Thank you for sharing these thoughts with us.
Which one? Regarding the recruit action? I haven't playtested it at all.
@@jameystegmaier The extra round at the end of the game.
@@KarelTiteca Oh right, yes. I think it's among the resolution tiles in The Wind Gambit--do you have it?
@@jameystegmaier Unfortunately not. It’s the one expansion I don’t have. Good to hear it’s in there though.
Love this video… this is the best game publisher!
Really liked this video! I'm a big Scythe fan (just finished the Fenris campaign after long COVID pause, and it was epic!), and I'm curious to try your variant on final turn without move now! I like how workers produce right now so I won't change that. The one thing I wish was different was that I am often not attracted by the factory cards so I usually only aim to go there at the end of the game to control 3 territories. I wish there was a different incentive. Maybe it could be interesting to have the ability to choose between public a few objective cards for example, I don't know...
I’m going to use that Euphoria variant, there have definitely been a few games where the variance in rolls gave one player a noticeable boost. But a minor complaint for an otherwise good game!
Love Scythe! The one "addition" I'd include would be to make the Combat Cards more situationally specific - I plan to make my own sometime, but it would be a fairly simple expansion to consider. ;)
Some examples:
* +2 or +4 when on X resource space.
* Gain +1 power for each worker that outnumbers your opponents workers on said space.
* Winner loses additional Popularity equal to all units on said space (including Mechs & Heroes).
* Loser may retreat a single unit to any controlled space, instead of going to homebase.
* +2 for each Enlistment acquired, maximum of +6.
* Move all allied Mechs & Heroes to said space. Gain +1 power for each Mech & Hero on said space.
Thanks! Scythe is complete and finished, so you're welcome to design, test, and share your fan concept on BGG and the Scythe Facebook group.
One issue you mentioned about Wingspan activation was that some players were confused about whether the effect triggered upon playing the card. Changing from "when activated" to "if activated" would not fix that for any players who assume that means if *played* as opposed to tucked/discarded. Perhaps it would be more effective to change "activated" to a figure with a cube symbol and left-pointing arrow to its right as in 'When 🧊⬅' and adding "You may" to indicate the effect is optional.
If you're confused that your cook took the hook can you look in the book?
Great video Jamey! It was insightful to hear your thoughts on some of my favorite games. I really enjoy Tapestry but I agree with your observations on the final space of the Military track (draw new civ) and the tech space that trades 3 tech cards for 10 points.
In my experience the final space of the Science track (Alien Biology) also feels underwhelming and difficult to leverage for a real benefit. Earlier spaces on the track seem much more powerful. Do you have any observations on that space?
Thank you for your continued support of Tapestry! I’m excited to see what comes out of the updated civilization spreadsheet you are working on.
I like that space, but I understand why everyone may not enjoy it.
I like that you produce workers in Scythe. I think it's handled well and different from other games.
I like it as well, it gives meaning to having more or less workers (depending on playstyle). It offers better variety
It's also entertainingly thematic how workers get produced in villiages. I also prefer not having to remember an extra rule just for the last round of the game.
@@Taltz911 Agreed. I respect Jamie's thoughts, but I think he's way off base for Scythe.
I wish Red Rising had some sort of “bank” phase where you locked in one of your cards to score at the end and you drew a new card so your choices didn’t feel so limited. You could even have abilities that allowed players to bank an extra card or banish a banked card and have 7 banked cards be another one of the end game triggers.
My groups one playthrough of Charterstone we found the broken combination mentioned in the errata. That was a frustrating scenario for everyone but the guy who had that persona.
We looooove Viticulture and Wingspan with all of the expansions❤ For us with Wingspan the phrase “when activated” was not confusing, because in the German rules it was nicely explained. We absolutely love Viticulture, but we have to admit: there are a two options, which we never use, because we think they are too expensive and not that useful: the windmill and the tasting room. The yoke can be ok, depending on your Strategie and the cottage is quite useful. We never sell grapes 😉 and we think 6 workers on the map are too much, you even get in your own way, so mostly we just play with the Grande and max 3 workers. But all of these things we would not consider as things to regret - everybody is free to create some “home-rules/house-rules” (as we call it) if something doesn ´t suit them! I absolutely love the artwork of Scythe and Expeditions, but unfortunately this type of game is not for us. And yes: that is one really important thing: colours and contrast! Especially for the elderly with bad eyes 😉 We are both close to 60 years and we often choose the games we buy by the colour scheme! So some of the “cool” games don ´t work for us, because they are too dark and don ´t have enough contrast or the font on the cards is way too small for us to read (even with glasses 😉) 😢But it ´s ok, there are plenty of games in this world which work for us 😊
I’d love to try the “enlist to unlock workers” variant of Scythe. Any thoughts on how I’d try it?
You'll have to experiment with it--I've never tried it. :)
Not saying that I would want you to change this, but I agree with what you’re saying about the enlist action being used for gaining workers. My husband always calls his workers recruits, and I get confused about whether he just declared that he’s using the ENLIST action… and I’m not sure if I should get my bonus or not.
I think Pendulum is the most overlooked game from your catalog. We play it with the timers. My wife and I really enjoy it.
I'm glad you enjoy it! :)
Thanks!
Great video as usual 😉 i would partially agree on raven cards in wingspan, its is not a big disballance isue, but it gives slight advantage to players who has tham, and those players usually win in my gaming group because we are all on the same level of strength.
OFFTOPIC i now you(Jamey) like i cut you choose...have you tried It's a Wonderful Kingdom? Interesting implementation of a mechanism 😉
I'm eager to try it! I've only played It's a Wonderful World.
Great idea for a video, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us! I have two follow-up questions I'd love to ask:
1. At what point do you usually realise you have these regrets about your games? Do they arise after release, when reviewers/the community point them out in forums? Do they occur to you after playing other games that make you think "oh snap, I should have done THIS in game X"? Do they occur to you in the shower immediately after release (as someone thinking of the perfect comeback right after having ended a discussion)?
2. You mentioned that you wouldn't release a new edition of your games just to address these small regrets you have. However, you also say you addressed one of your main issues with Tapestry in its expansion, and I feel (but please correct me if I'm wrong) like you're addressing some of the concerns of the community with Viticulture in Viticulture World (which I haven't played yet but seems like such a genius concept: the players now can share that very tense experience, instead of creating it at the expense of each other!); also, the Trade action in Tuscany does seem to address this concern of yours. This makes me think: when you design expansions, what drive you to do so? The fact that the game is widely popular and people would want more of it? The chance to address some small issues you had with the base game? Are there ever parts of games that you design from the start but decide to keep for an expansion, to leave the base game elegant and tight?
1. I don't often think about my design regrets, but if they ever arise, it's at different times ("yes" to all of your questions in this regard).
2. My motivation to create and publish any expansion is if we have a cool idea that we think will bring joy to players. I include all of those ideas (all of the ones that function, anyway) in the core game--I don't set anything aside for later.
@@jameystegmaier Great, thanks! It's amazing to be able to talk freely about details such as these with a great (and busy, no doubt) designer such as yourself, thanks for all you do for the community!
When you got to Tapestry, I thought for sure I knew what you were going to say, but I was wrong. What are your thoughts on unlucky or overly lucky Tapestry card draws? I've noticed sometimes that a person can get a beautiful synergy on their tapestry card draw, and other times get something that is almost entirely the opposite of what they need. Especially in the first round of the game when you only get a few draws, this can really kickstart some pretty funny snowballing, or hobble some players right out of the gate. We've tossed around the idea of "whenever you draw a tapestry card, draw 2 and pick 1 to keep" to help get around this, but I understand that'd almost definitely slow the game down a bit. Alternatively, maybe "On the first income turn only, draw 1 additional Tapestry card" would give players a tiny bit more breathing room.
I hear you, Matt! While I think it's fair to say that some cards are circumstantially better than others, I designed all tapestry cards so players can make choices around optimizing or not optimizing them when they decide to play them. You're never asked to play a tapestry card right away (if you were, that's where luck can factor in). I mention this in another comment: Tapestry gives you lots of tapestry cards, and the decision space isn't which card to draw (hence why I don't support the draw-2-keep-1 house rule); rather, Tapestry is about choosing which card to play and when to play it.
Thanks for your feedback, very rare to see publisher/designer accept "flaws" on their games :) Tuscany is by far the best expansion ever. I would never play without it (only game I can say that). So, for me Tuscany makes Viticulture what it is :) Regarding Wingspan, I'm really surprised for not having any comments on "Ravens" cards, the most controversial balance topic on this game. Also, I would like to see more cards in Wingspan, maybe having the possibility to draw 3 cards and put above those available cards (same as in Vital's contracts for The Gallerist). So, by doing it, you still won't penalize someone who really wish to pick a specific card (by discarding it), but, at least, having more variability on birds. Sometimes, those 3 cards just stay there with no one wanting to pick (or, maybe a benefit if a card was not selected during a round - discount to be played? I don't know :)
Yeah, I'm sure there's at least 1 card in each of our games that I might change a little bit. I don't personally think ravens are as unbalanced as people think--if we really thought they were a problem, we would have changed or reprinted them.
Jamey, have you thought about adding a difficulty rating to the rolling realms? I'm thinking kind of like how in Sagrada they have the 3 to 5 dots to just indicate generally how difficult it is. It would be neat to have something like that on the Rolling Realms cards, it would help when deciding on which 3 to play together.
That's an interesting idea. In general, the promo realms are more difficult than the core game realms, though some sort of ranking system would be interesting to add eventually.
For Red Rising I'm interested in what you would think about making it so that if they're still at starting hand size Golds still banish, but they take the top card of the deck to replace it. I want to try it your way first but I'm just concerned about powering them down too much so that people are not incentivized enough to take the color earlier in the game. I definitely have felt the major restriction being taken down to 4 in hand incurs so a change was definitely needed so thank you for seeing that! Love many of these games. You are a major design inspiration
Thank you! That's a fair point about still making those cards feel valuable.
Yeah, I agree, "If" written on the card would be easier to remember the rule of whether it must be activated or not on Wingspan.
Another game that uses "if" is Ascension, e.g. "Banish a card in your hand. If you did, ..." since you could play that as the last card and thus your hand is empty and you cannot banish a card.
Time as a resource is something I would like to see in a future game. Think of chess with a clock, where each player has a pre-determined amount of time available to them. There's different ways without doing it like Chess does it. For example, having resources that can be paid up front for how much time you get this turn or round--with no refunds (should you not need it all). If anyone remembers MULE (on C64), I believe it was food that allotted you how much time you had on your turn, which wasn't paying for time, but was dependent on your food production (or purchasing if not producing).
Alternatively, as a different way to use time, simultaneous play where the player who is last to finish their turn (with no take backs, because we all know players who after they take an action, then realise there was something better, and want to go back and change it--maybe they could be permitted with a double time penalty in cases where time is a resource that carries over, but I'm mixing concepts so I digress) gets penalised outright, or doesn't get a benefit that others do, who finished ahead of them during the simultaneous playing turn.
Something like these ideas instead of the real time elements of Pendulum would appeal to me more.
@Stonemaier Games Is that a Shakespeare's cup you're drinking from? My partner is from the STL area and we use them all the time.
It is indeed! I've only eaten there once, but somehow I have 3 of their cups. :)
Hey Jamey. You just me though of something that I don't think is in the game of Libertalia, but it would have been nice to have crewmembers with the power to change some of the treasure acquired or on an island, thus manipulating a bit the treasures. Maybe food for thought for an expansion? 😁
Thematically speaking, a witch cursing a treasure on an island or an explorer discovering a new map would make sense.
Keven: You know, I think Paolo and I discussed some abilities like that, but I recall him thinking that it was better for the game for those tokens to remain static.
@@jameystegmaier Which also perfectly makes sense as they are randomly picked and being to change them might makes it less interesting to plan around them. Totally getting that. :D
Great video Jamey, it's always interesting to hear your thoughts on design, and direction for making choices.
I have now played Viticulture with multiple groups, and been both the player, the teacher, and more of an observer of the rules and was surprised when I played with a group that said you had to choose the left most spot when placing your worker on a location. I went back into the rules after the game was over and confirmed that there was no such restriction, but I also rewatch a couple of the how to play videos and saw they were very explicit about any spot being available, when placing workers. Was this also a confusion for players early in in the game?
You're correct that you can choose any available action space (scaled by player count). Playtesters didn't seem to struggle with the concept of choosing the most appealing action space first.
I love scythe. The only mechanic that we dislike is the power is visible.
This caused end game conflicts to be calculated without any possibility of losing. It is never fun when a player attacks and everyone knows that the outcome is already determined.
So we started playing with "Blind Power". We all track our power separately on our phones. This creates much more of a cold war scenario that makes you factor in the fear of losing instead of simply assuming victory.
Red Rising... the very first game I played with my friends the first action one of them took was to banish a card from my hand. I never recovered from it. I didn't care much about winning, and I was more focused on teaching them the game anyways, but I remember going back and reading the card they played again because I wondered if that was really possible? Did they play it wrong? But nope, they played it correctly. Wish I knew about the rules update, but imagine the first thing I tell them is "oh they changed that rule".
For me the pink ones in wingspan are the ones confusing. Specially vs the digital game. In scythe, I do not have an issue with the workers, more with the special habilites. Seems unbalanced in that part (but I think is just me). Tapestry, pendulum, between, castles, I have not played them that much to feel a problem. But pendulum I had the timers ones (purple stopped flowing). In libertaria I think sometimes the pick the token from the bag should be optional or revome one tile from board
Wingspan: I don't think 'If activated' would help that much. The word "may' is useful in this case. "When activated, you may..."
Just a thought.
BTW, love the games Wingspan, Viticulture, and Scythe! I own all three. The solo mode in Scythe is brilliant.
Pendulum the way it is, it´s a very good game, you can play it with sand clocks or the other way, both good.
Hi Jamey! i was wondering if you guys are using digital design or mockup tools in the design process? especially in the early fast-prototyping phase? Im a digital product designer (UX), and i use my day-2-day design tools also for game design purposes. it so easy and saves lots of time. i can elaborate if you like. thanks.
Niv: I use InDesign for my prototypes. Feel free to elaborate on your methods!
@@jameystegmaier InDesign is a great tool especially for "Print". If you want to create fast digital objects (such as cards, tokens, boards etc) with different versions and variants, i recommend trying Figma. you can create the necessary components and even "play" with it all directly on the canvas, (dont have to print). a bit like in "table top simulator". and the great thing about it is that once your created "master" components, its so easy to make changes and modify the entire game. I can show you an example if that sounds interesting.
@@nivkatz9640 That's really cool about Figma! We do work a bit with it (indirectly).
Hi Jamey!
Sorry if this is indelicate; if so, you don’t need to answer. I suppose if you’re going more for mechanical regrets then this might not count, but I wanted to ask you about the distribution for Wingspan in that first print run, because I don’t think I know the whole story.
I remember that for several months after launch, people (at least in Canada) could only buy copies of Wingspan through your online store. Local game shops couldn’t order it in, which hurt them because Wingspan was the biggest phenomenon in board gaming when it launched. I bought my copy of Wingspan from you directly because I was worried it would go out of print, not knowing what I know now. These days, of course, things are different and everyone can get a copy from their favourite game shops, but I wanted to hear what happened from your perspective, and if that impacted how Stonemaier distributes or markets games today.
Thanks for the video!
Oh, I have a whole series of other regrets related to the business side of Stonemaier Games. :) But you're correct that that isn't the topic of this video. Here is my article on Wingspan specifically: stonemaiergames.com/the-truth-about-stonemaier-games/
I really like Scythe, but I have played enough to see that the upgrade, build and popularity star almost never happen. Also Rusviet and Crimea need to have changes to bring them in line with the other 3 factions. Would love to get some official changes.
My husband and I just learned and played Viticulture last night and when we were discussing it we specifically called out wanting to have bonuses on a 2 player game! I was going to search to see if anyone has come up with a good variant we can adopt.
The Tuscany board has bonuses on many of the 2-player action spaces--I'd recommend that over a house rule.
@@jameystegmaier well I guess that means we will be ordering that with Viticulture World and the wine box :-).
I've used the automa to play a 3p game with only 2 players and it seemed to work fine.
Such a great idea for a video. So interesting! I had no idea there was an official variant regarding banishing cards in Red Rising. I will definitely use that from now on as it has soured several players first games having to lose a card. I’m kind of surprised you didn’t mention the player colors in the Collector’s Edition of RR as many are very difficult to distinguish, even in good lightning. The good news is you offered replacement metal tokens in your store that 100% solve the problem and still keep that chunky feel. The bad is news is you charged for them. I did buy them because I love the game but it sure didn’t feel great having to pay more money to fix an issue not experienced by those who paid less for the regular edition (paying just for shipping would have been acceptable).
I'd classify those Red Rising component changes separately, and I already discussed them here: czcams.com/video/9xmqBV88HwI/video.html
I think it's one thing if a component simply doesn't function at all, but that isn't the case in Red Rising. The cubes function, just not optimally. We're not profiting off of the tokens, just breaking even. I'm sorry you view that as bad news.
My only regret is not finding your games sooner. ;-)
I think you were completed right about the Wingspan wording.
I really Love Pendulum becuase of the timers, I find this true innovative. But nobody else I know enjoys it, so sadly I have to agree there. I have a Rule that I sell every Game that I didnt play in 2 Years, the only exception is Pendulum :)
I'm happy to hear that, Kai! :)
Tapestry could be more thematic if you stack the tapestry and invention cards. It doesn't make any sence to invent batteries and after that printing or go from world fair host to age of sale. Stacking the Deck like in 7Wonders would improve the theme beyond moving up tracks.
Plus it has some ruling nightmares. As you said, the FAQ is one of the biggest.
Ah, but that isn't at all the point of Tapestry. In Tapestry, you're creating the story of your own civilization, freed from the bounds and constraints of real-world history. The stories of Tapestry emerge from players pushing up certain tracks and not others, creating and discovering things in completely different orders. This was the entire point of the Tapestry design--it's a player-driven theme, which I think is incredibly thematic.
Plus, I don't think it's great game design to ask players to stack the deck at the beginning of the game--it's cumbersome and creates a barrier to entry every time you sit down to play.
@@jameystegmaier Accepted. But it's hard for me to clear enough headspace to see beyond pure mechanics and explore the history of my own civilisation. That is me and I still like the game as it is. I just wanted to express some what-could-have been-thoughts.
And yes it is cumbersome to stack the deck every build/clean up if the differnce between the cards is small (Roll Player: Number of dots in one corner), a bit less if the back of the cards are different.
Have a big one with wingspan. The one point per egg rule usually just ends up with everyone taking the lay eggs action the entire last round. Which feels kinda unclimactic.
But love SM games. Viticulture is probably my all time favorite game 😊👍
Have you tried playing with any expansions? We worked to counter that strategy quite a bit in each of the expansions.
@@jameystegmaier ive bought the one with European birds. Havent had the time to try it more then 2-3 times thou. Maybe i have to look into the other expansion also.
Do you think it would be ok to have the buy/sell fields be buy/sell fields/grapes? Also, any ideas as to any alternative actions to add to the Train a worker space?
You're welcome to try alternatives! I haven't found a need for them.
@@jameystegmaier thanks for the reply! I read on BGG that one could start with 4 seasonal workers, 2 spring/summer and 2 fall/winter, plus the grande. Then, treat the train worker space as in Viticulture World. They claim that suggestion came from you. I'm just curious if it really came from you. I'll probably give it a try since we liked the concept of seasonal workers in Viticulture World.
@@gianfranco4789 I don't recall that suggestion; I think what I probably said is that if people like the seasonal workers, they could try them in regular Viticulture too. But that definitely is not a recommendation or the way I play.
@@jameystegmaier gotcha. Thank you.
Wingspan: If and When would generate the same question I feel. What I would change is add the word "may" to most cards - "When Activated: May tuck a card and draw a card". "May" is a common keyword in boardgames which implies the player "can choose to not do something" at their own discretion.
I generally like "may" too, but in a game like Wingspan where it be used hundreds of times, I'd prefer the current method (the global rule) or "if activated." Plus, "may" isn't actually accurate in Wingspan: The choice isn't whether or not you gain the benefit after activating the ability; the choice is to activate or not to activate.
Jamey - one question regarding alternative Scythe endgame.
Why do you think it’s best if the 6-star player gets the turn as well? Wouldn’t it make more sense for them to finish the game by placing the sixth star?
Seems that player already achieved their planned goals and is one of the forerunners anyway.
I do think that's best, yes. Not in every game, but in Scythe I think players need a strong incentive to end the game, and not giving that player the final turn removes a big part of that incentive.
@@jameystegmaier got - thank you very much for the clarification!