Wasn't part of leto's golden path the breeding of humans invisible to prescience? That would be the end of any 'golden path' that Leto could see, surely.
Think of it as dr strange looking at 14 billion possible futures, and finding the only one where everyone important to the overall outcome contributes their death at the right place and time... Thats the golden path.
Seeing this comment makes me roll my eyes. I'm so sick and tired of that 14 billions different futures and only 1 bulkshit. There are infinite futures and therfore an infinite number of ways of them winning in Avengers. What a stupid f*cking movie.
it’s the one path that will lead to humanity’s survival and evolution, one where we will all break free and let out and venture into the unknown world, as our ancestors did before us, to further our future
Great summary, its so easy to miss these critical details in the books. Reading Dune again after 30 years and literally the Duncan Idaho death scene was like a sentence or two. I kept thinking where does he die its gotta be a few pages I missed but nope.
I think you're probably right. I read Dune way back in the late ' 60s. Even then, I expected more of a "happily ever after" follow up. It took several readings of the series for me to get past Paul and his family and see what else Herbert was saying.
Interesting. No one is talking about this and not many young people have the patience to read the original novels. I see a development arc not just of the Atreides, but of Herbert too, where he changes focus as he thinks more about the story and writes new books. Herbert has a few plot holes that he never acknowleged or explained. For example, Alia is said to be 'pre-born' in that she has all of the memories of the Fremen reverend mother plus her mother's, that she acquired during the ritual. Herbert throws all of this on the bonfire when it's the Baron's personality that tries to possess Alia in CoD. Suddenly the ability to inherit memories changes from chemical, using the water of life, to genetic, as inherited by the twins. Good review!
That’s actually explained, Bene Gesserit training is a process that prepares it members for the spice agony, which would allow them to obtain access to those memories. As by this point they would posses established memories. However Alia didn’t receive the opportunity to cultivate a feminine identity that would allow her to adjust to safe feminine identify. She wasn’t given the freedom to develop a feminine ego that would filter out the male egos. It’s why all pre-born are killed, because the strongest personality typically win out and dominate the female body. This is mentioned multiple times that women not trained are more susceptible to possession. It’s why the bene gesserits have a policy of kill on site regarding the possessed and why very few of their members become reverend mothers. Not to mention it’s been mentioned before on how they possessed a history of dealing with abominations and made the decision through experimentation that due to fact that there exist both male and female components towards the domination of the child’s mind. You must also consider each identity has unique experiences that allows them to operate unpredictably that the witches cannot control, which is why they despise them deeply.
They're the same thing. Paul might not be able to see it clearly yet but, he's obviously already terrified of becoming the kind of tyrant that finally teaches humanity to stop handing over their free will to "messiahs" (AI's, Kwizatz Haderachs, local warlords, etc...). The Golden Path is humanity being painfully forced to grow up instead of looking for new daddy figures to protect them from reality. It's important to remember that Dune is set in the future of OUR universe and that all of the old religions, and ideologies have almost wiped out humanity multiple times.
3:00 OH. That's interesting. I wonder if Herbert took any courses in philosophy because the Golden Path seems to have a lot in common with real life philosophy. The most obvious being Fredrick Nietzsche's Ubermensch who makes themself the meaning of a meaningless world, but I think the Golden Path is more akin to Soren Kierkegaard's Knight of Faith. One who takes a leap of faith and because of that, frees themself of all moral doubt.
I read the dune books before any of the brian herbert stuff started coming out. Loved the first three. I got to God Emperor and had to literally force myself to get through it. It was one of the worst books I've ever read. The rest were a chore but that one stood out as a particular grind.
@@Internetrando I love, love, love Whipping Star (which comes first) - Dosadi Experiment not as much (it is the sequel). I had to order both books from Tor Publishers - I think they are printed on demand. I've read Whipping Star about fifty times - I wish he had been able to do more world building in this particular universe.
Eventually, yes. The humans were already at an advantage with Leto II having destroyed Synchrony and Norma Cenva destroying the machine evermind Omnius. When the machine Erasmus and Duncan Idaho finally have a confrontation, it's Duncan who says that truly ending Kralizec requires more than just annihilating the other side, and Erasmus agrees to join minds. Duncan becomes this human with a machine mind, and then accompanies Erasmus to their death.
I never liked Childern Of Dune. It almost feels like it was written by someone else. It doesn't have the same feel as the other Dune novels. In fact my favourites are the last three (written by Frank Herbert).
I still don't see the ultimate purpose of the golden path. Did humanity really need these super beings? I reckon we would have muddled through whatever travails the universe put in front of us no matter what. Put into context Leto's meddling was only a blip on the history of humanity. I also doubt son Brian's vision would have been his fathers solution, life imitating art.
Yeah, I scoured the books and never found a satisfying answer as to why a 3000 year tyranny was a necessary condition for the golden path, and the accounts from historians and other characters don't seem sure either. To teach them a lesson...? I often wonder what was in Frank's outline for book 7, and how much Brian added himself. Frank does lay the groundwork for a lot of future events in the earlier books to give us some clues, but I guess we'll never really know.
Wasn't part of leto's golden path the breeding of humans invisible to prescience? That would be the end of any 'golden path' that Leto could see, surely.
The path was not his path, the path was humanity’s path to escape a genetic predisposition to follow others.
Think of it as dr strange looking at 14 billion possible futures, and finding the only one where everyone important to the overall outcome contributes their death at the right place and time... Thats the golden path.
Seeing this comment makes me roll my eyes. I'm so sick and tired of that 14 billions different futures and only 1 bulkshit. There are infinite futures and therfore an infinite number of ways of them winning in Avengers. What a stupid f*cking movie.
@@QuietGuitaristfan it means he saw 14 billion of those infinite futures, not that there are only 14 billion
it’s the one path that will lead to humanity’s survival and evolution, one where we will all break free and let out and venture into the unknown world, as our ancestors did before us, to further our future
Great summary, its so easy to miss these critical details in the books. Reading Dune again after 30 years and literally the Duncan Idaho death scene was like a sentence or two. I kept thinking where does he die its gotta be a few pages I missed but nope.
I like these where you go over certain areas
Movie or TV wise. I don't think this series will ever make it to God emperor and beyond. It would be interesting to see on screen though
I think you're probably right. I read Dune way back in the late ' 60s. Even then, I expected more of a "happily ever after" follow up. It took several readings of the series for me to get past Paul and his family and see what else Herbert was saying.
I think you're right.
Just like wheel of time would never make it
Paul story makes for a good movie he rest not really
Well, if the sequels keep earning more money, they will keep doing the movies
Interesting. No one is talking about this and not many young people have the patience to read the original novels. I see a development arc not just of the Atreides, but of Herbert too, where he changes focus as he thinks more about the story and writes new books. Herbert has a few plot holes that he never acknowleged or explained. For example, Alia is said to be 'pre-born' in that she has all of the memories of the Fremen reverend mother plus her mother's, that she acquired during the ritual. Herbert throws all of this on the bonfire when it's the Baron's personality that tries to possess Alia in CoD. Suddenly the ability to inherit memories changes from chemical, using the water of life, to genetic, as inherited by the twins. Good review!
That’s actually explained, Bene Gesserit training is a process that prepares it members for the spice agony, which would allow them to obtain access to those memories. As by this point they would posses established memories. However Alia didn’t receive the opportunity to cultivate a feminine identity that would allow her to adjust to safe feminine identify. She wasn’t given the freedom to develop a feminine ego that would filter out the male egos. It’s why all pre-born are killed, because the strongest personality typically win out and dominate the female body. This is mentioned multiple times that women not trained are more susceptible to possession. It’s why the bene gesserits have a policy of kill on site regarding the possessed and why very few of their members become reverend mothers. Not to mention it’s been mentioned before on how they possessed a history of dealing with abominations and made the decision through experimentation that due to fact that there exist both male and female components towards the domination of the child’s mind. You must also consider each identity has unique experiences that allows them to operate unpredictably that the witches cannot control, which is why they despise them deeply.
dont remember hearing this once in both new dune movies the way but not the golden path
They're the same thing. Paul might not be able to see it clearly yet but, he's obviously already terrified of becoming the kind of tyrant that finally teaches humanity to stop handing over their free will to "messiahs" (AI's, Kwizatz Haderachs, local warlords, etc...).
The Golden Path is humanity being painfully forced to grow up instead of looking for new daddy figures to protect them from reality. It's important to remember that Dune is set in the future of OUR universe and that all of the old religions, and ideologies have almost wiped out humanity multiple times.
God Emperor......Please!
I love the female Sourh African accent.
The perfect mix of allure, forthrightness and malevolence.
3:00 OH. That's interesting. I wonder if Herbert took any courses in philosophy because the Golden Path seems to have a lot in common with real life philosophy. The most obvious being Fredrick Nietzsche's Ubermensch who makes themself the meaning of a meaningless world, but I think the Golden Path is more akin to Soren Kierkegaard's Knight of Faith. One who takes a leap of faith and because of that, frees themself of all moral doubt.
Rereading the first 6 books
I read the dune books before any of the brian herbert stuff started coming out. Loved the first three.
I got to God Emperor and had to literally force myself to get through it. It was one of the worst books I've ever read. The rest were a chore but that one stood out as a particular grind.
Have you any plans to talk about Herbert's The Whipping Star and the Dosadi Experiment?
Oh wow, I've never even heard of these books, but I'll definitely check them out, thank you!
@@Internetrando I love, love, love Whipping Star (which comes first) - Dosadi Experiment not as much (it is the sequel). I had to order both books from Tor Publishers - I think they are printed on demand. I've read Whipping Star about fifty times - I wish he had been able to do more world building in this particular universe.
These are some of his best
I also liked The Santaroga Barrier... Really, all of Herbert's bibliography is worth reading.
@@LongDefiant I haven't heard of the Santaroga Barrier! I am going to try to source it. Thanks.
Dune Messiah was the throw away book. Very difficult bridge between the original and Children.
❤❤❤
I heard that ultimately the machines agreed to coexistence. Is that true?
Eventually, yes. The humans were already at an advantage with Leto II having destroyed Synchrony and Norma Cenva destroying the machine evermind Omnius. When the machine Erasmus and Duncan Idaho finally have a confrontation, it's Duncan who says that truly ending Kralizec requires more than just annihilating the other side, and Erasmus agrees to join minds. Duncan becomes this human with a machine mind, and then accompanies Erasmus to their death.
I never liked Childern Of Dune. It almost feels like it was written by someone else. It doesn't have the same feel as the other Dune novels. In fact my favourites are the last three (written by Frank Herbert).
I still don't see the ultimate purpose of the golden path. Did humanity really need these super beings? I reckon we would have muddled through whatever travails the universe put in front of us no matter what. Put into context Leto's meddling was only a blip on the history of humanity. I also doubt son Brian's vision would have been his fathers solution, life imitating art.
Yeah, I scoured the books and never found a satisfying answer as to why a 3000 year tyranny was a necessary condition for the golden path, and the accounts from historians and other characters don't seem sure either. To teach them a lesson...? I often wonder what was in Frank's outline for book 7, and how much Brian added himself. Frank does lay the groundwork for a lot of future events in the earlier books to give us some clues, but I guess we'll never really know.
Any suffering is worth it if you can rid yourself of tyrant prescience influences. To really be free, we must give up gods and godheads.
People must begin to HATE gods and domineering leaders in order to get rid of them for good and all.
Siona, and her genetic heritage, was the purpose.
Let to mentions that Ixian Hunter seekers would have wiped out humanity if it weren’t for him….that is one possible fate.
Prequels are dead to me.
“Incorrect”
Its the path to drag race