Masters of the Air -Tracer Usage and Bomber Gunnery Tactics Fact Check Deep Dive Review
Vložit
- čas přidán 26. 03. 2024
- In Masters of the Air series, bomber gunners adopted tracers in all air-to-air engagements. Tracers were eliminated by the 8th air forces at the end of 1943. The video will address the historical accuracy of this change and review both series tracer usage and gunnery tactics adopted.
- Věda a technologie
I just read Bert Stiles" book, Serenade to the Big Bird. He flew 35 missions with the 8th Air Force as a co-pilot in B-17s in 1944 and describes gunnery engagements as extremely rare and so quick that the gunners hardly had time to get a burst or two off. His gunners always complained about never getting to shoot down any enemy aircraft because they were rare and came head on so fast that they were hard to notice and almost impossible to identify. He lost only one crew member, a waist gunner, in all his missions.
This is a fantastic book, fairly short, and just describes his job factually, with just fear, cold, confusion and no heroics. He recounts trying to sing to pass the time and almost choking on his own saliva in his oxygen mask. He also ruminates on the people 5 miles below on the receiving end of his bombs. He also talks about how hard the 17 was to fly and his lack of skill as a pilot.
Stiles completed his tour as a bomber pilot, went home and finished his book, then returned to the ETO as a fighter pilot and was killed in late '44 at the age of of 23.
I highly recommend this book. It was hard to find. My library didn't have it but Amazon did. It's a quick read but informative and very well written. Lord HardThrasher read a section of it during his visit to an American airmen's memorial in England, Check out his video.
door gunner?
One of the true classics and written at the time vice years after.
@@Bigbacon He means waist gunner
@@nightjarflying howndonyou know? Waist gunners arent at a door
@@Bigbacon I've read the book
Yes, very good. I was a "50" gunner on a Huey in Vietnam. If your tracers looked like they were hitting the target you were missing. The visual clue you were hitting the target if you could see pieces come off the target or dirt and or water strikes. Tracers were very helpful because I knew how to compensate for the visual error given by the tracers. It was much easier to be accurate because we were shooting at no more than a 1,000 feet in altitude at an average airspeed or 80 kts. On the other hand, it was not unusual for enemy troops troops to be several yards if not feet away from friendlies
I love this channel. Thank you so much for your hard work and research, & making these amazing facts so readily available.
Very informative. I’m 64, but learned a lot of things I didn’t know about the gunners and how they had to aim at their targets. Thank you!
i wonder what the mental shift was like for german pilots when tracers were eliminated. i almost feel like it would be better metally for them to see the tracers and know they were being shot at to feel like they could avoid it vs a never ending fear that you'll randomly be hit by rounds you cant see. Congrats on the super close 50k, keep it up man :)
I believe "Military Aviation History" on CZcams has a video on the German perspective, and German pilots preferred to be facing tracers because they could see the bullets missing, or see that they needed to evade.
Once again just fantastic information. My dad was a nose gunner on a B-24 but he did some time as the ball gunner and a waist gunner on several missions. He was with the 15th Air Force out of Italy. It’s just interesting to see the information that he would’ve have been exposed to in his training and when he was deployed. Thanks again for all the time you put into this and for your family who are supporting you in this in endeavor. I know it takes a lot of time..
A "waste" gunner?!? That must have been a very shitty job! Much better duty would have been to be a "waist" gunner!
@@johnbuchman4854Funny. Fixed
Absolutely brilliant series of videos, so much interesting information.
Chances are they left them in the show just as a visual to the viewer to make it more dramatic.
Yeah, they did a lot in the show for reasons other than historical accuracy. Maybe I remember wrong, but the previous two series took accuracy more seriously.
Most likely. I had no idea the tracers were removed though.
I’ve been here a while, but this channel is the best part of masters of the air.
This one I can forgive them for, because I imagine that audiences would be losing their minds seeing the fighters right up next to the bombers and the gunners just ignoring them.
Either they do it right and show audience how it really was or they just star wars it for the visuals
G'day,
Yeah...,
Maybe we should call it the
"Disneywood/Hollyland Effect...(!)" ?
From the erroneous
Sight-Beads atop posts on the
Muzzles of Turret-mounted Guns, through the portrayal of twice as many Mustangs as were stationed in all of Britain flying
Close close CLOSE ESCORT over Berlin, shimmying in to 1/100th the distance achieved in Real Life (20 yards from the Wingtips - rather than 2,000 yards out, safely beyond Nervous-Gunner Range...),
Ploughing
Propagandistically onwards,
Outwards, forever and ever further into
FICTION...;
Gaily tripping through
Amputation of all the
G-Model B-17s & their
Chin-Turrets,
Fraudulently misrepresenting both the
Nature of Air-to-Air Rocket Attacks, and the
Existence of (historically mythological) Deployment of Operational Ground-To-Air Anti-Aircraft Rockets (Wasserfall)...;
And arbitrarily portray the
Hosepiping of Tracer Gunfire
For the entirety of the Air War,
Showing it going on
For twice as long
As the
Foolishness actually persisted in
Real Life...
Visually sparkling and
Lace-weaving
All over the Screen
To better preserve the Cultural Meme
And make a more impressionistic Cinematographic
And Dramatic
Scene....
All to live up to the
Carefully indoctrinated
Infantalised
Cartoon-esque
Caricature of a
Historical understanding of
AmeriKa's role as a
Participant Combatant
Nation, during
The Second
Great Patriotic
War to End All War.
The one where the Soviet Union incurred 14,700 of it's CitiZens killed
Per DAY..., from 22 June 1941 to 8 May 1945...; whereas the "Bloodiest Battle" fought by the US during WW-2 was the Invasion and Occupation of Okinawa - whereinat the US incurred 2,000 KIA in one Day, and 10,000 across the whole (3 weeks ?) of the Campaign...
Whereas
"Disneywood/Hollyland Effect," has been
Propagandising
Muddled AmeriKano's
CitiZens, for 3 or 4 consecutive
Generations..., to unquestioningly
BuhLIEVE that dear old
Unkle Spam's
"Greatest Generation
LITERALLY
Saved The
WORLD....!"
And, so,
Thus it comes to be that
Today...; their
"Best Efforts" are
Jam-packed, & filled fully-up with
Obviously Jingoistic
Bullshit...
Ingrained, over
Intergenerational
Repetition....
"Victory..., Hurraaahhh !"
(Which, in German..., is pronounced as ;
"Sieg..., Heil !" ).
Just(ifiably ?) sayin'.
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
@KrolKaz the key is to not get your expectations so high.
I got no time to read that tirade
Along the same lines, tracers look great in movies and TV. You gotta give the audience some eye candy.
In masters of the I feel like the show suggests that there's alot of friendly fire during air combat
It sucks, but I’m guessing it happened then much more than we want to admit.
Statistics say no, there was not much friendly fire. The distances between formations were designed to limit that. What did happen, seemingly often, was mid-air collision either during formation building before setting out on the mission or because a damaged plane collided with another.
@@asdf9890 This guy already has a video on that. It happened but very very very small percentages of damage were from friendly fire.
@ericharmon7163 statistics that were recorded by who? Yeah, the very people who would have been accidentally and regretfully committing the friendly fire. Stats aren't always accurate to reality, let's try to keep that in mind and take numbers with a grain of salt
@@isaiahmckeown-philip1238It would have been easy for them to avoid. They knew where their friends are and how they fly AND they're in formation so they know to avoid shooting them.
The tracer rounds didn’t distract me in MotA at all. Just watched Fury on the other hand 😂 had to double check they weren’t carrying Star Wars blasters.
This is a great channel. I do not see this as particularly knocking the MotA show, but using it as a heading for these informative programmes. Who would have thought SO MUCH went into a bombing campaign.
Great info, I plan to use it well. I am a turn fighter main in War thunder and used to use Tracer belts but have recently changed to Universal (mix of tracer, HE-I and AP-I), now I am thinking of taking the plunge to full Stealth belts (AP-I only).
The info on lead required for a pursuit curving attacker is gold, I'll try that the next time I take a medium or heavy bomber.
Again, fantastic info.
My father was a B-24 waist gunner. He flew 30 missions from January to May 1944. These videos, especially this one are very interesting. Keep it up and thanks for your excellent videos.
Clark Gable @11:44 LOL!
I thought so!
Needed an arrow pointing to "famous actor for scale" 😅
Gable was involved in making a recruiting film called "Air Combat." Although he didn't have to, he flew at least five combat missions and came close to getting hit by a 20 mm shell on one.
I wonder how many viewers didn't know who Clark Gable was. I am 82, so I knew he was.
@@williamromine5715I knew because I just saw his daughter Judy Lewis on an old episode of "Highway Patrol" yesterday! LOL
Incredible amount of research, analysis and documentation while at the same time extremly clear and concise... This guy would have been the Mozart of the 8th's Operations and Training Staff
Love your channel! Keep up the great work!
this is hands down one of the best & also my favorite youtube channels on the subject of aviation & aircraft - i love the narration, citing historical/primary sources, and coverage on relevant aviation topics/pop culture media representation (as a huge WW2 aviation fan myself)
Great information. Thanks for putting these videos out.
That is indeed counter intuitive. Very interesting
Your videos are the absolute best. Your videos have helped me increase my knowledge of my favorite aircraft the B17. Thank you!
I dont care about tracers much, but willdly shooting at everything always piss me off because it leads to major misunderstandings about friendly fire both within the bomber formation and with escort.
Your videos are gems of information, filled with interesting analysis and facts beyond anything big time directors and actors can portray on pay per view channels if you catch my drift.
I had no idea tracers were removed.
Anyone else learn something today?
It seems completely counterintuitive. But here we are. Mind blown. 😮
You should check out all his videos. He has a couple videos on tracers and ammo types
I didn't know about tracers being removed but I did know about the visual errors of tracers because I was a "50" gunner in a Huey in Vietnam
The main thing about the show that was weak, was that overkill of mustang presence even if some raids had numbers like that, turning it into an insane crisscross of fighter and tracers wallpaper pattern,
not once was one of those fighter engagements shown from the Mustang perspective,
and when you finally do see one as Tuskegee airmen, the whole thing was underwhelming,
they did the Mustang and the 332'nd dirty
Agree, really enjoyed the show but once again another show that doesn’t understand how fighters move in space. Hundreds and hundreds of fighters in a tiny part of the sky
My father was a vickers machine gunner in the NZ army WW2. They took out the tracers as a good operator knew where his bullets were going and made it hard for return enemy fire locating them.
Tracers do have a degree of incendiary effect, I set a range on fire once even though it had been raining earlier.
I saw a guy smoke a Pheasant from 1000m with an M240B and set the grass behind him on fire with two tracers
The definitely would have set fuel on fire with a direct hit to a fuel tank intermittently. My Dad worked for gun magazine in the 80's and early 90's. He did an article on the subject using gasoline and propane. About 50 percent of the time the tracer would start a fire. But it had to be direct hit. Propane was a little less than 50%
This guy is extraordinarily thorough in his research on WW2 military aviation topics.
I imagine the use of tracers was a bit of artistic license as the observable tracers would give the audience evidence of the bullets’ path.
Another compelling watch. Thank you.
I thought it was a nice touch that the homeward bound bombers in the last episode correctly did not have the guns mounted in any position.
Can he please post pdfs of the valuable primary source documents he is using instead of throwing them in the trash
@@markingraham4892 footstepsresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/getthatfighter-1943_44printed.pdf
@@markingraham4892if the link works for you I found the Get that fighter book
I don’t think they were actually armed, to cut down on weight. I think the pilot and co-pilot were the only crew and the gun ports were closed in with perspex.
Love these so much! Don't know if it's within your purview but could you do a video on the dual purpose 5" guns used on most naval vessels from mid to late WW2?
8:53 hahaha! That joke threw me off for a second
Just when you think - after a lifetime of study - one knows 'all' there is to know about WWII aerial warfare, suddenly you get jumped on your 'deep-sixed'-dive and have to grudgingly bailout from the inconspicuous cannon-fodder's one-upmanship ...
This discussion was especially eye-opening for me into those air-arms' use of tracer-fire - had no idea that both the Allies and their Luftwaffe opponents stopped its use during the period ... Greatful as always; still learned something new here.
As a humble request into your excellent 'fact-checking' *MotA* Series, could it be possible (in [I'm only guessing] your busy schedule) that you could eventually do a 'deep-dive' discussion into the F-version production-block of the B-17's many varied (and trialled-out) nose-armament arrays? That would indeed be especially great; thanks in advance if you could spare the time in doing so!
Excellent research!
8:55 you break character so rarely and without changing tone that comment made me lmao 😂😂😂
Great vid. thanks.
Fascinating stuff, thanks!
"...mk 1 eyeball.." lol sir that got a genuine lol from me. regards from manxhester england
Excellent information - needed to freeze frame more than once!
Excellent
I remember playing an arcade game that used the WW2 aerial gunnery film loops. You had rotating grips to move the crosshairs and a bell would ring when you hit the fighter.
Ive learned much - thank you.
Best on youtube! Keep up the truth!
Never really thought too much about the counterintuitive aiming due accounting for the B-17’s speed. I guess it’s like firing into a really really bad crosswind and accounting for that. Really interesting. I live near a ww2 gunnery training school that is now in a wildlife refuge. You can still see the large embankments and concrete pads that surrounded half of the larger gunnery fields that had a rail cars on them to train the pilots. There were others that I’m guessing had moving dual guns like the top turret gunners with rails/concrete on both sides of these smaller gunnery areas. I’m guessing they have the turrets and targets moving at the same time. And of course there are thousands of 50cal rounds just laying everywhere near these areas.
They also used shotguns with clay pigeons to train the bomber defensive gunners, they even had a rig that a semi auto shotgun action was mounted in that had .50 cal grips on the back, if I remember correctly it was mounted in the back of a truck that would drive along while clay pigeons were launched from the same kind of low bunkers you see on a trap range.
Even though the B29 had that computerized defensive gun system that didn't require the gunner to lead his target and instead automatically gave the gun mount the correct lead and elevation meaning the gunner simply kept the "pipper" on the target they still were trained with shotguns and clay pigeons to learn the art of leading an aerial target, maybe it was in case the system was damaged and the gunners had to switch to a manual mode.
I knew a B29 crewman that flew off of Guam, he showed me his photo album from the war and one picture was of him on Guam holding a Remington Model 11 shotgun, being a collector of military shotguns it immediately sparked my interest, I'd known that when bomber gunners were trained in the states using shotguns to shoot clay pigeons were part of their training but i was surprised to see one in the field, when i ask him about it he told me that they had it and a supply of birdshot ammo and clay pigeons so they could shoot during their off time to keep their skills honed.
@@dukecraig2402 nice history there. At our range here in South Texas (Harlingen Army Airfield) some of the Aztec Eagles (Mexican pilots)trained in P-47’s among other planes. One of the pilots was lost in a P-47 during some aerial gunnery training and hit the very shallow tidal part of our bay. I know the plane was never retrieved but wonder if there would be anything still out there. I know the approximate location (I have the accident report… 3 miles NNE of a known small island only gets you so close) but with hurricanes and the hypersaline nature of our bay I don’t know how long even aluminum would last in the bay.
Learned a lot--thanks.
Absolutely love the job you've done.
The movie producers should have consulted you,and guys like Greg's Airplanes, before producing this series. My grandfather was a B-24 crew member in the Pacific, so I love it when they do WW2 movies, but the should do more on authenticity!
Great video...👍
Nice - Thanks!
I really hate when Hollywood does it's "thing" with historical movies, but you can hardly blame them for keeping tracers in the scenes.
Spielberg and Lucas said they based the battle in the Millenium Falcon vs Empire fighters on WW2 air battles such as this.
Decades later they base ww2 air battles off of the star wars fights
Great video! The illustrations regarding position shooting were a revelation to me! It appears the the point is: the attacking interceptor points it’s nose ahead of the bomber being attacked, but appears to slide toward the tail of the bomber. The the azimuth of the gun must be adjusted by the gunner towards the tail of the bomber to compensate. So the gunner must ignore where the interceptor points and aim in the direction it appears to slide! By the way I believe the tracers were shown intentionally to show the VIEWERS where the bullets were going. However well trained the gunners were they may not have fired as per the manual when in panic mode! 🤔
The first few episodes were riveting. Subsequent ones, less so. Especially with the side-plots and characters. I may be the lone opinion, but I did not like the POW-focused episodes. Keeping the show focused on the changing nature of the air war and how the crews adjusted as was their training, as you point out - would have given the uninitiated viewer a much better appreciation for the difficulties the air and ground crew face - just my opinion. The failure to update the prop aircraft to later models, due apparently to the high-cost of the production was a missed opportunity. In some scenes with 17’s with drooping horizontal stabilizers and elevators and no chin turrets, the lack of attention to detail was quite pronounced. So, if BoB’s was a home run and TP a single, then MoTA could be called a stand-up double.
Agreed, thought the POW episodes were a struggle. I think this could have happened with the budget probably being restricted by Apple. With only 9 episodes, I wonder if they planned 10, but only got the budget for 9, so they tried to show the most critical elements they could to tell the story which necessitated the time jumps. The first six episodes cover I believe April-October '43, leaving just three episodes to do the last year and a half. I think if more time had been spent with Rosie, all episodes 65-70 minutes long with a 10th episode and no sub plots to nowhere would have helped. Still enjoyed the series though.
Can you please make a video of the logistics transporting such an enormous amount of bombers to England?
Very interesting
I’ve always assumed they used tracers the same way we do today but I’m not basing that on experience shooting at fast moving targets inside a moving aircraft. Ground the M2 tracers were helpful at other ground targets up to 1000 or so. Game probably changes in the air, never been a B-17 gunner though.
Thank you.
The CAF Media site recently reported USAAF Mosquito night fighter kills, presumably this and Northrop P-61 Black Widow night fighters fired all the American 20mm ammunition, the P-38 having been withdrawn in the second half of 1943 as you have previously described. Would USAAF night fighters be controlling night time Luftwaffe attacks over US Army territory and not operating against bomber interceptors?
There are some excellent WWII USAAF bomber gunnery training films on CZcams if you search that match up with this video really well.
I'm curious to know just how much damage and injuries/death happened to fellow crews from the .50 Cal guns of the aircraft around them firing. Surely there had to be multiple strikes from your own groups aircraft with gunners wildly following attacking aircraft....strikes on their own aircraft as well as their wingmen
fascinating stuff , i always wondered how many of there friends they hit, as on flim they just looked like there blasting everywhere
Things like this are why I'm glad I never bothered watching the series. They keep trying to duplicate the success of Band of Brothers but keep churning out video games.
If the technical aspects of gun sights and whether or not tracers were used keep you from watching a series ok then
In episode/part 1 of Masters of the Air, Crosby refers to 12 machine guns on the B17.
Is this correct?
Was it only 11 on the F model and 13 once the chin turret had been added?
No of usable guns were 11 & 13 only in theory. e.g late in the war after D-Day when flak was the big problem there was often only one waist gunner who presumably could choose to fire either waist gun, but also the Radio Operator had a single .50 that fired up and aft which was not very effective due to small field of fire [tail unit was out of bounds of course] - this gun might be removed or not supplied with ammo. Similarly the two single cheek guns were fairly useless & not always fitted/armed. The extra weight of gunners, guns & ammo cut into the range & bomb load so it made sense to reduce waste where possible.
Thanks.@@nightjarflying
Much depends on the _specific_ 'production-block' model on the F-series (produced between May '42 and Sept. '43), and whether any of these [then/episode one] mid-war 'F's were subsequently field-modified [with additional guns] by their respective ground-crews. With these still being representative of 'typical' [trialled] mid-war [nose-gun] armament configuration, my best educated-guess is that the total number of guns on these particular [episode one] F-series could vary anywhere between [extremes of] 11 to 14 .50-cal. guns (with some [field- and {later} factory-installed] models featuring hand-operated 'twin' .50 cals. in the extreme nose section; while some featured as well, a similar 'twin' 50-cal. installation mount in the [dorsal] radio-room station).
As I've come across many images of [period] B-17s, I find that the F-model is perhaps the most difficult version to correctly document (particularly throughout 1943) regarding the various armament-array trials among its many nose-gun configurations. Very early initial production-block variants (Spring '42) still caried the original single hand-operated 30-cal. nose-gun (carried-over from the 'E'-model), as well without [the later] forward 'cheek'-gun emplacements (with many eliminating the [dorsal] radio-room gun altogether).
With later models clearly featuring up to four separate [.30- or 50-cal.] hand-operated nose-gun-mounts on each of the forward corners of the Perspex bombardier canopy - with the last F-series production-blocks beginning to see the installation of the [later] updated [forward-firing] 'cheek'-gun embrasures (albeit, initially staggered _opposite_ in configuration to the G-model), as well as a handful of others (some ~65[+], or thereabouts) receiving the new 'chin'-turret installation (as standard fitment on the G-series - with initial early-production G-models eschewing of any forward 'cheek'-gun mounts) - it is especially noteworthy (and equally frustrating) to the average [uninformed] WWII air-war layman that attempting any accurate differentiation between late-production F-series and [very] early-production B-17 G-series [photographic] examples oftentimes only warrants the need for a keen and more-experienced [expert's] eye over distinguishing minute peculiarities in recognizing particular-period B-17 nuanced model types.
Many thanks! Wonderfully detailed reply.@@SharkHustler
Fun fact. Clark Gable was the highest ranking person to fly as a designated gunner in WW2.
engaging
Without Tracers, I had a hard time following this episode. I'll watch again... 🐿
I understand now why none of my bullet were hitting shit in war thunder when I was controlling the bomber gunner... I was shooting in the damn wrong direction
big question is even though there are all these rules for what to shoot and how to shoot its hard to put yourself in their position, enemy aircraft all over the place your getting shot at from possible multiple places, your in a pretty stressful situation, not all gunners would have been veteran gunners and followed the steps in a handbook to the letter. you gonna sit there at your gun and quickly look over all the different aircraft. or you going to fire at what ever presents you with an opportunity too
Ignore the stupid movie. You concentrate on the enemy aircraft that are attacking you - you completely ignore 'fly bys'. That is the Golden Rule of defensive bomber fire against aircraft flying 200 mph more than your B-17.
You have around 60 seconds of ammo & you have only so much attention/awareness so by following the simple rules you don't get caught engaging a 'fly by' when another aircraft attacks YOU & you're out of time to do anything about it - in the ten seconds you were messing with the 'fly by' another aircraft will have moved towards you by 600 to 900 yards [if it's approaching on a rear pursuit path] & you're dead because you didn't lay on the fire when it was in your premium killing zone. Not only are you dead, but your B-17 is falling apart & you may have killed 9 comrades through stupidity. It's simple - if every B-17 gunner behaves like that in your box, & the box stays glued together, then you have the best possible chance of getting home. The Golden Rule is easy to remember & it's drummed into you in air gunnery school so you'll never forget.
@@nightjarflying one its not a movie its a series
Two i wasn't talking about the series in general i was talking about being in that position in real life.
Can you put yourself in the shoes of a waste gunner in a B17 on a 8 hour long trip where your fighting for your life. my bet is the answer is no and neither can anyone in these comments no game, simulation or any amount of documentation can bring you into that mind set.
"no plan survives contact with the enemy"
you can have a much of a plan on what your going to shoot at what your not going to shoot at but when shit hits the fan and you don't know if your going to come out dead or alive any plans you had can very much just go out the window. of course your not going to shoot at some aircraft that has flown right past yours that is a waste of time but in a stressful situation where you could die at any minute i can only imagine that trigger discipline wasn't always followed.
We can talk about what is best to do and what was recommended but we are living 81 years in the future and will never know what it was 100% like to be in the shoes of anyone back then.
You don't think about it in combat, adrenaline takes over. It's part of human survival system, the one who thinks dies, our minds developed to deal with that. As for the hours before the fight - read about psychology of cancer patients, in the end it leads to acceptance. You know you can die any day, you know you can't control it, you simply accept it - again, its part of our survival system, without it you would have people and animals suiciding left and right,.
Wow. I haven't seen this many videos correcting the errors on past series like Band of Brothers or The Pacific. In fact, quite the opposite.
I think it applied more to AAA but didn't the difference in mass between tracers and normal rounds cause them to diverge in flight>?
Not much difference within the effective range of around 900 yds - beyond that range it didn't matter.
Clark Gable was a waist gunner?
Can someone verify that at 0:07 the cartridges come out the back end? That is not how the .50 works right?
???
They should come out the bottom in the front
Not the side on the rear?
I was a "50" gunner in Vietnam. I really had to think about that, it was been over 50 years. If my memory is correct the links come out the side and the brass comes out the bottom a little to the rear of the camber
Well this WW2 armchair expert learned something new !
Very informative.
My father was a waist gunner in early 44. He said every 9th round was a tracer. His recollection wasn't the best.
Considering how many technical errors this series has, I hope they didn't spend too much money making it.
Doesn't a tracer at least somewhat double as a incendiary given the flammable rear of the bullet?
Absolutely. You have to be careful when shooting off tracers on the ground, they'll set off dry grass / wood very easily.
Hah I thought this video was plagiarized off another channel,but it was because I saw this channels previous video from a year ago about the same topic of removing tracers from the ammo boxes.
I’ll allow it though, it’s a smart move to fit the same video into the context of MotA
After playing IL-2 BoX, you learn that it is extremely difficult to not fly a pursuit curve when attacking bombers. It is really difficult to attack bombers without getting killed by defensive fire.
Big bombers even on their own can be deadly unless you come in fast from the 12 o’clock position. Later tactics showed that high almost vertical attacks from the 6 o’clock position on to the top of a bomber presenting a bigger area could be very effective. Zooming and booming tactics that left very little reaction time to the top gunner and high deflection angles. Anything slow and approaching from the 6 o’clock tail position forget about it..
So much for Object 2 (protect others in the formation) if you only fire on planes attacking you.
In practise this isn't a problem - an enemy aircraft on an attacking pursuit curve could be bouncing you or your neighbour, thus you assume the worse & thus supporting fire happens by magic.
Physics rules. The gunners are moving horizontally at 250-300 mph, so you have to aim a bit behind the attacker for your bullets to hit him. If you aim directly at the bogie, the bullets' trajectory would be offset to the right of the attacker due to the bombers forward airspeed.
180 mph.
You haven't written which direction the bomber is flying so you can't claim the bullets are offset to the right. More likely the bomber airspeed is 170 to 220 mph - never ever 250 to 300 mph.
At 11:33. Points 16, 17 and 18...Hard.
What's "GAF"? I feel like we should have bomber gunnery simulators in arcades. I think a lot of people are a lot less accurate than they think they are.
German Air Force (or Luftwaffe).
but, tracers make pretty pictures on the tv box...
and fit in with the way the various war games make air combat look.
realism doesn't count when advertising dollars are in play.
8:29 mark I eyeball lol
I'll easily accept continued depiction of tracer as poetic license to help the audience follow the action. The decision to show far too many hits on enemy fighters, while never mentioning that exaggerated claims (in excess of 10x actual downed fighters) were granted to boost morale, is curious.
Showing the Munster raid entirely divorced from the horrific 'Black Week' of which it was part, thus hiding the fact that the tribulations & sacrifices of these brave young men had been squandered in pursuit of a deeply flawed theory, is inexcusable.
‘Mk 1 eyeball’ nyuk nyuk nyuk
I guess the tracers look cool on television?
I think they wanted tracers so they knew where they were shooting....without tracers it's hard to tell where it's all going...lol
The gunners who wanted tracers didn't appreciate that tracer is useless when the gun & target are both moving independently - the rules are different when shooting birds from a fixed, still position on the ground. The rule that works is to use your sights & ignore the tracer or even better - don't use tracer. The curving path of tracer is confusing for the gunner - he should know his aim points for different distances [& direction] of target & he aims there. By the time the tracer reaches the enemy it's OLD information & he should not base his aim on that!
My uncle flew b29s over Japan.
I can grasp how our gunners didn’t shoot our planes flying next to them or even shot their own wings or horizontal stabilizers…🤷🏻
The guns wouldn't fire when aimed at their own plane. Some sort of mechanism stopped the trigger when aimed at certain angles
Ignore the movie. If you fire at only planes making a pursuit curve attack on you, you are not going to be firing abeam [across direction of your flight path].
Some mounted guns had metal guides that prevented aiming at most parts of your own aircraft.
Murphy's Law of Combat:
#27: Tracers work both ways.
Murphy was a Grunt. 🐿
Wouldn't these instructions (only shoot at fighters attacking your bomber) negate the very notion of formation flying? Isn't the supporting firepower of other nearby bombers not under attack critical and indeed is item #2 cited in the goals?
In practise it isn't a problem - an enemy aircraft on an attacking pursuit curve could be bouncing you or your neighbour, thus you assume the worse & thus supporting fire happens by magic.
Masters of the Air producers?
You learning yet?
Or do you even care?
☮
MK 1 eyeball. too funny
All these dang people nitpicking that show just be glad they made it. I think the important thing was a show him these severe losses of 100th bomb group at that one mission the monster they lost that rare section we’re all shot down. I mean think about it the odds of them making 25 missions waswhat I first asked for Nicol. You guys should look up the history of the second ploesti ring by B 24‘s these guys are flying maybe 50 100 feet off the ground. This was one hell of a dangerous assignment flying these big bombers around. I think that’s what the series really hammered home and I heard somewhere that bomber cruise were all volunteer. They could’ve said I had enough and they sent them somewhere else, could you volunteer and do that with the odds being shut down like that today? I don’t think too many people would they truly were the greatest generation❤
Then show these poor guys having to learn new gunnery tactics during combat. Imagine how distraught you’d be if you were doing your level best to defend yourself and your mates and no matter how much you practiced it wasn’t enough. Your friends going down in flames. Then you find out that the gunnery you were taught was hindering you and you had to relearn how to shoot. Sometimes being the survivor is worse than the dead because you have to live with the guilt. Even if it wasn’t your fault.
Just typical hollyweird bologna or should I say horse pucky!
horse hockey!
Coming or going similar dimention's . 5.805084745762712 second of burst is enough when given the muzzle velocity is over 1000 mps and the average relative speed of 94.4 mps average for both attack and defensive combarant's. This only a hunch that some could get em, maybe my maths is crap. , Point defence can hit fast rockets these days, might want a virtual multiplayer shoot em instead., oh sure that has to be Clark Gable.
I actually have stopped watching the series. No chin turrets and all the other historically important things they ignored. Just another carelessly made moneygrab series.