VW ID4 with high degradation or maybe faulty battery
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- čas přidán 16. 01. 2024
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![Tesla Taxi FULL HEALTH CHECK: Is The Battery RUINED After 430,000 Miles? [Episode 4]](/img/n.gif)
Please like so Bjorn can see.
I build custom batteries for EVs using battery modules from VW ID cars.
I have an instance where an 82kWh pack from an ID4 after 100,000km lost exactly 23-24% like in this video. In that pack, 1 cell in 2 modules lost capacity (there are 12 modules in a pack). Others were fine. We swapped the modules and problem was solved.
So, i'm 99% sure the ID4 in the video has the same problem.
This happens only on 82kWh pack modules. I have dozens of cars running the 62kWh packs (doing 100,000km per year in taxi) and those haven't got such issues or maybe I'm lucky - who knows.
Maybe they say it’s ok because it has over 70% capacity and warranty doesn’t cover it yet. Which is unfair in my opinion.
If the dealership checks the battery and finds a faulty module, they will replace it under warranty. They're generally not difficult about this.
I know an id3 1th with 2 modules replaced in warranty.. 5k euro each...
My 2 modules on id3 were changed 2 weeks ago in warranty. The bill would be around 9000€.
Best drop below 70% usable capacity before it hits 160.000km. Otherwise it could be an expensive repair.
@@kasmopaya2676yeah, hammer it until it is below 70% :)
I just traded in my 1st Edition Id.4 for a new Id.4 GTX 4Motion. It had similar mileage as this one, and from the test result the firm did, there was only 4% degradation on the battery. As I see it, a faulty cell is the only way to explain that high degradation.
This looks like a faulty battery module which should be replaced in the HV battery recall program. I downloaded some docs from Erwin where the affected VIN-s are listed. I would be happy to share it with you or the owner to check if his car is on the list. Not every affected car is on the list, but if it is, then at least one module is faulty for sure. If it's not on the list, service should still check cell balance to decide if the car is affected.
all you have to do is call your local shop if there are any recalls give them vin and they will tell you
@@matejbrezan6887 after his shop stated the car is totally fine, I wouldn’t trust them…
Hi Zoltan,
Is the list you have a worldwide one, or is it just for given countries?
@@geivnv I guess it is worldwide.
hi ... you can share the affected VIN numbers i want to buy an ID4 and want to know if its affected by this recall
Would be good to check the highest and lowest voltage cell when near full and near empty (if the OBD reads out those values). If the spread would be large, this could tell us there might be a faulty cell, causing the issues and limiting the performance of the entire pack.
I've noticed the problem of the ID.4 also on Skoda Enyaq and they have a recall program for faulty modules/cells. The software ME3 is also tuned to be more sensitive on voltage differences and gives a warning to visit the dealership.
So Bjørn, next time you could possibily see voltage differences in Car Scanner if you go to All Sensors.
Shite happens with batteries and cars. It happens to all brands. The exciting part here is to find out how the manufacturer is HANDLING the issue. A follow-up would be great :-)
This is a car that The Sun looking for 😂
Wasn't there a replacement of individual battery modules in 2021? Reason was: excessive discharge of individual cells... should be checked by VW service.
yes. I got one new module free of charge that way. But car scanner hat told that all cells are evenly charged. So do not 100% trust car scanner!
Kudos to the owner!
Thanks Bjorn to help in this case.
You should check cell voltage difference when battery is full and when battery is empty. Car scanner shows this information for ID cars.
Very helpful video. To be aware of that the battery might get faulty but still run. VW should take care of this problem definitely.
Thank you Bjøn, this is the answer to my question If the ID.4 have the same Problems as the ID.3...
Thx Bjorn
In the UK at least, VW are rolling out new software that checks the battery and alerts the dealer on faulty cells. My friend has an ID3 and it got a software update and the dealer said one of the cells was bad
what happens if a cell is bad? Battery replacement within warranty?
@@RobertPuklin They have taken his car to a special battery repair Center to replace the faulty cell
@@jhbodle1 I don't think they can replace single cells. They'll replace the module with the faulty cell
@@jhbodle1 Great to heat that this is now becoming an option. Much more efficient and I imagine cheaper, andwill hopefully start to unravel the fear around entire battery replacements on second hand EVs for a single failing cell.
@@LiiMuRi Possibly, I need to find out the full details when the car is returned to him
The owner might need to try now to abuse that battery as much as possible to go over 30 % degradation. Maybe then it will be replaced under warranty.
But it’s sad very sad that vw did not recognized that there is a higher then expected degradation and if it reaches X percent then battery is going to be replaced.
I've see a lot of VW with battery problems as in abnormal battery wear. It's a trend apparently on vw
How build the Battery? Catl, Byd, LG?
LG Chem
Akku ist kaputt for sure. At 2% voltage is 340.5v, which corresponds to 3.54 per cell, way too high.
Briefly checked other 77/82 pack tests on the channel:
1.I drove VW ID Buzz until the battery died
0% dash 322v, cell min 3.35, cell avg 3.35
estimated net capacity ?
2.VW ID Buzz 82 kWh range test
1% dash 326v, cell min 3.38, cell avg 3.39
estimated net capacity 74.6kWh
2.VW ID Buzz with high battery degradation after just 6 months
0% dash, 329v, cell avg 3.42
estimated net capacity 71.8kWh
3.VW ID4 GTX battery capacity test when brand new
1% dash, 329.25v, cell avg 3.43
estimated net capacity 72.9kWh
Some battery cells in my ID.4 1st have already been replaced. There was a recall. Has this already been done on this car?
no, its VIN was not in the recall list
Super details and real world proof. Thank you.
This is interesting. Please have a follow up on this specific car.
SoC on my Enyaq is also not linear, it goes down way faster under 50%. However the degradation of this battery is not OK. The battery is probably kaputt, most people on MEB forums have about 8% degradation with this mileage.
This is abnormal degradation, only explanation is a faulty cell/module.
Driving an electric car is like having diarrhea...you're happy every time you make it home without mishaps :-)
Now I understand Bjørns "Butt feelings"
Please check voltaje of cells. Its very interesting.
I think as long as everything is within the warranty conditions, the owner will have no chance against VW. But maybe this video helps, as VW doesn't want bad publicity...
Vw has the worst reputation of all companies out there don't worry they know it.
You have to be rich or stupid to buy a German car they always breaking
He needs to take this car to a shop and do a certified battery check. If this degradation is confirmed then he can put in a warranty claim with VW.
not unless it's below 70%
I would say the same if I had $178 billion in debt. 😬@@mmehmed
Interesting to see. The behavior is abnormal. As stated in the comments, there was (is?) a recall of IDs, especially with the big pack, because of kaputt modules/cells :) There is also a link available, where you can check yourself, if your car is known to have this problem. Normally VW should have contacted the owners, at least when the car is in for service.
Btw. the range would be fine for the small (58kWh) pack ;) - however, the voltage is wrong/mismatches.
This can be a result of software issues or hardware problems with a module controlling cell balancing. If cell balancing is not working car will stop on first cell that hit max. voltage when charging to 100% and when driving it will hit 0% when the lowest cell is at minimum voltage. I would think this should be possible to see by looking at the cell groups after charged to 100%. Unless battery box have leaked saltzsmutz into the control circuits and some cell groups voltages might even be measured incorrectly...
He should be do such as a aviloo Test. On Board driving and analysing device. I would recommend. In Germany and Austria more and more doing it :)😊
Hope there is a followup vid on this. Or maybe you should go all "TV2 Hjelper deg" and go with the owner to the VW dealer :-)
Bjorn with car scaner you can see the modules...
My ID3 pro has, roughly, 50kWh useable left. After 41000km and soon 3 years. Did test runs in summer and winter last 6 months. Got 50-51 in my calculations.
Same in ours after 27.000 kms and 1 year.
Bjorn Butt feeling! Classic Bjorn
You could try evdash hardware, it shows your battery voltages, look at full and empty, probably one off the banks is the culprit.
Thanks for the Information 👍😁
Bojrn, you should check the software version. I heard that 3.2 software is more sensitive and would probably show battery error in this case. I have id3 1st and had 2 modules replaced 2 weeks ago.
Isn’t plug & charge only available on 3.2 🤔
In my opinion, for this age and mileage, the loss of capacity is not normal.
If you still have access to the car, can you check the cell charge level in carscanner? May be there is a big difference between some cells?
Fairly certain some modules/cells are faulty in this battery. This is definitely not normal, I feel for the owner
All i can say is, ebike batteries behave the same way when there is bad/badly connected cell in one of the series packs. Shutting down with a few % left, charging slow when around 50% and a lot less range overall. It is not typical behavior for simple pack degradation.
Good news for e-bikes though: we can generally swap in a new one
With 3.0/3.2 the ID.4 should actually charge with 135+ kW. Mine can charge with 175kW since I got the update from 2.4 to 3.0 via OTA. Now I am on 3.2
Cell voltages might be interesting. Are they equal?
If you have Rosstech VCDS you can read the degradation directly from the OBD port
ID4 nice an quiet. Yes, you are right! But charging speed in winter is so slow. I drive 40.000 km per year with ID4. In summer it is ok. In winter it is bad bad bad. After 2 hours with german Autobahn I only get 50-80 kW at Ionity 22% SOC at -4° outside. Thanks for your videos Björn ! ! !
Next car a Tesla or Kia👍
@@dixikloos5352 I got rid of my ID.4 and bought a KIA EV6. Although it's not perfect, qualitywise it's a much better car.
Also consumption is high. My Cupra Born used 95kwh in 300km a few days ago.
@@dixikloos5352 Hyundai or Kia you mean. With Tesla battery repair is even worse. They have too big modules or sealed packs for TMY and TM3.
@@flavianddTesla have sealed packs because they have 10 more years experience than VW in making EV battery packs. Tesla have worked out how to make a battery that doesn't need faulty modules replacing. This is VW's first proper battery pack, they made it serviceable because they knew it would need to be just to survive the warranty... Tesla batteries 10 years ago were the same.
Hi Björn., In most BEVs you get all the individual cell values with CarScanner, and it then also automatically shows the cell with the highest and the cell with the lowest voltage. Do you immediately see, if some cell/s are faulty and drifted in voltage from all other cells. Have you checked that in this ID.4? In my Kia Soul EV and E-Niro there were Values called Maximum Deterioration, MaximummDeterioration Cell No, etc... and you are able to see each and every cell numbers voltage individually.
Would have been interesting to see how much was used to charge it full from that 2% SOC. I know there is charging loss, energy being used for the battery heater etc. but it could give some idea of the capacity as well right?
Good attitude! Never give up the original service :-) Does the ID4 have CATL or LG or SK ?
LG and SK, LG has peak charging power 135kw, SK has 170kW
Some ID4s have CATL as well
20 % degradation every 100,000 km? 🤦♂️
And Volkswagen makes so much mess-around their heating, cooling, technology... 🤦♂️
When the car is only 2 years old, then this should be something corrected by guarantee. I think even the driven kilometers should not void the guarantee.
Can you do some degradation tests on the more recent e-golfs with the bigger battery? Here in Germany they’re getting reasonably cheap, I’m wondering if it worth buying. The older version doesn’t have enough range for me.
Would be great!
How about the Ford Mustang Mach-e? Could you do a degradation test on that one?
This is almost certain a faulty module. No way any modern cells go under 80% remaining capaciry after 300-400 cycles. And that is regardless of use.
The only thing that could that is if a painter had kept the car in hot conditions for drying over extebded time or it has been kept very long st zero SoC.
Well done Bjørn! A good video.
Have you ever done an Aviloo Battery test? Or checked the cell voltages when almost full/empty? This seems to be a faulty cell and/or module in the battery pack.
My ID.4 has 70k km’s and 3.5% degregation so far. Definitely sounds like she’s running on one less module!!
I wonder if scanning the car for fault codes in Car Scanner will give any result. Maybe it doesn't hence ignored by the dealer.
To me it seems like there may be something wrong with this battery in this particular car. You should test a different similarly specced ID.4 with similar mileage and age to see if this is just a contained issue or not.
@@Antiorganizer 35kWh/100km? Not even the fat e-Tron, which is known to be very thirsty, needs that much. The consumption in this video perfectly lines up with the range test that Bjorn did with the ID4 some time ago. Keep in mind, the speed limit in Norway is very low and the ID4 is a relatively small and efficient SUV.
I own a GOLF GTE 2018 model that after 6 years 78.000 km now have hit 70% SoH (State of Health) on the HV battery. I have used the test from AVILOO for documentation to my local VW garage. So in the near future it will go below 70% and i can ask VW to repair the battery under warranty.
But the big issue now is that in you if you read your warranty from VW, they shall only bring the battery up to 74% because the car is 6 years old! Translate from Danish to English.:
2.2 If there is a disproportionate loss in the net battery energy content
according to clause C.2.1,
this will be remedied free of charge for the customer in a
such a way that at least the following net battery energy content
is achieved again:
(a) up to a maximum of 60,000 kilometres driven or
3 years after first delivery, depending on which
whichever occurs first: 78% of the
of the original value;
(b) up to a maximum of 100,000 kilometres driven or
5 years after first delivery, whichever occurs first
whichever occurs first: 74% of the
the initial value;
(c) up to a maximum of 160,000 kilometres driven or
8 years after first delivery, whichever occurs first
whichever occurs first: 70 per cent of the
of the original value.
Example: If the net battery content at a
car age of 4 years and 90,000 kilometres driven
69%, then in the course of the defect rectification, a net battery
achieve a net battery content
of at least 74%.
Do anyone have any experience with warranty on the HV battery on a VW, how much they bring it back too (SoH)?
And the ID.4 in this video is only covered if it drops to under 69% SoH as I read the warranty form VW.
Thanks Bjørn for a fantastic channel and very good tests of EV cars and problems.
Interesting. How many net Wh left? What was average driving cycle, pure electric?
Is it possible to make a consumption test with a Q4 or ID4 with old APP310 and new motor APP550. I am very intrested for the result ! Thanks
CarScanner can show min/max cell voltage with VWs
This will show if some cells are bad.
Also you can monitor cell voltage difference during hammering to find high resistance cells.
You mean like Björn showed us a few times in the past🤡
but it is not rue what car scanner shows here. In my case all was fine but I got a new module from VW. For free.
Wondering what could happen if you drive in IKEA or another parking lot near chargers after that 2% SOC. Faulty battery module? or BMS 🤔
My 52 kWh ID.4 behaves also quite bad in the winter now. Don’t know if it is the 3.2 software (with one changed battery module) or something else. Max power (blue bar) is limited from something like 60% when cold starting. Yellow turtle supprised me last time at 11% charge. Not happy 🙁
So the normal degredation in our Tesla Model S's is 1% per year; why would VW state that 24% is acceptable for such a young car - definitely defective battery cells.
because VW replaces battery at 30% degradation. Although service should check for issues with cells.
Imo it's absolutely not normal. It should be easy for the dealer to measure each module etc. After that mileage 5-10% is acceptable. But not over 20 %.
we need follow up on this. Did it get fixed?
You should try another id4 same age same mileage and compare
I have the same issue ever since I have this car. It charges slow at a fast charger (mostly 50kwh, sometimes more). And range max 300km (most of the time around 275km). WLTP should be 520km but wasn't aware that this shouldn't be normal. I'll call the garage to see what is going on.
My degradation seem to be inline with this, at 60k mi odo the battery capacity is about 60.5kWh @100%, this is done draining the battery to 0% including buffer until vehicle will only crawl (like NIO crawl)
Then L2 charging to 100% in 65 F ambient. VW diagnosis cost $800~ workshop found no module issues stated “HV battery performing normally”.
Vehicle is charging about 30% on DC.
Tesla next?
@@tomcockcroft9394Came to VW after Tesla buyback due to recurring MCU failure, if J3400 looming yea might have to go back. I need to have to deal with VW meanwhile.
Information from Volkswagen is like this: This is normal and warranty start when battery is under 70% / 160k km/ 8 year
@@hanslundstrom245 crazy. Should be 80% minimum. Or 75%
In general there is something wrong with VW/Skoda batteries. Degradation is very high.
No problem to find 2 yo car with less than 85% of battery (SOH), but usually 2yo Vw got around 90%, which is still high in comparison to other brands, for ex. 3yo Ionic5 still got 99%.
but, 24% I've never seen.
Do not trust Korean cars SOH.
Did the owner charge to 100% much. I know you said he mainly home charged to 80% but did the battery get any time to balance properly. The have been a few Ioniq bought second hand with bad SOH and range that have come back after a few balancing cycle and slow charges to 100%
There is no way that car doesn't have a faulty battery module, or a similarly big fault with the battery. The dealership just needs to do a proper job and find it.
Will you be testing the ID4 GTX 2024 version with upgraded infotainment and new motor?
Log and request a formal complaint and ask for your complaint number,anything before this means nothing, it's just chit chat until you formally get that complaint number.
Take it to elbimek and get it checked for cell delta
Its easy to do with CarScanner. Iam sure Björn did that..😁
I don't know if with car scanner you can check the voltage of eachs cells or module and see something maybe
Yes you can..check the cells
Should look to replace a fuelcell in the battery.
Looks like something is off.
having 29% vs 31% degradation at 160 000km will make soooo much difference :)
The range is the range of my former ID3 with 58 kWh battery… so for 77 kWh after 120.000 km it seems to be kaputt😉
Any update on this ? Was the owner able to get the battery modules replaced?
In Australia my Model-3 after 2 years and 43,000km the Battery Health test indicated I have 98% battery health.
Is yours an LFP or Li-on battery? Sounds good. I’m curious how much you have to worry about degradation if you buy an EV.
@@Axter6There's a lot Tesla data already about that topic
Bjorn
What is the voltage difference between max and min between the cells?
If it’s more than 0.1V between a cell, than you know that shit is cooking.
It would be interesting to see if this is a permanent degradation or if it's related to the winter temperatures. There recently was a US study researching range loss in winter for several car models and they found the VW ID.4 to be the worst offender with a range loss of up to 46% !! I've had an ID.4 myself for roughly the past 2.5 years. The past two winters were relatively mild with only a couple of days below -10°C. First winter with the original software 2.3 saw quite a serious bit of range loss but not in the ballpark mentioned in your video or the study. Second winter was with software 3.0 and while not stellar, it showed a little improvement in range. Now the car is seeing its third winter, this time with software 3.2 - and this winter has already seen a number of really cold days (for northern Germany - probably just a cold summer for Norway ;-)), I even got frozen door handles a couple of times :-D Anyway, I've never seen as massive a loss as during the current winter - it's insane! Charged to 80%, displayed range well below 300km, drove only two or three very short trips (less than 15km each), within the city, so speed was always below 60km/h - often slower because of weather conditions - and then had just 68% left. Usually, when I drive only in the city, I only need to charge every other week - now I'm charging every week.
And like the owner you mentioned in your video, I've taken pretty good care of the battery - rarely charging 100%, mostly charging AC. Car has driven less than 15.000km total yet, so mostly city-use, very few long trips, very little hammering on the Autobahn. Practically still brand-new ;-)
Reading through the other comments, I see a lot of people suspecting faulty cells. Could very well be, since there actually was a recall for some ID.3 and ID.4 models because of faulty cells more than a year ago (I think), but at least according to VW, my car was checked for that when they were doing the 3.2 update. So, unless they were lying about that, that's not the case for me. Maybe for the car in the video if it was not yet checked. Then again, this sounds all quite consistent with the range study I mentioned above.
Also interesting: The study showed that one of the cars with the least winter degradation was the pre-MEB Audi e-Tron. All MEB cars were much worse off, which is also consistent with reports wo of my colleagues, who drive ID.5 and Cupra Born, and also have very poor winter range. But again, ID.4 beats them all ;-)
Just one question - what app is that 😀?
What does car scanner show for SOH?
Aviloo test as second opinion?
Is it possible to read out the soh with just an obd And the App ? It says 100% for my Hyundai ioniq with 44k km. Thanks
Just returned my Golf 8 1.5tsi after a 3 year lease. Worst car I ever owned, 13 times in the garage for software issues. I wrote a long complaint letter to VW, we THE WORST customer care call ever from them, basically what do you want us to do?! Now driving an EQA 250 and love it. VW were always my car of choice, I had a 2001 1.9tdi Passat that ran for 1.2 million Kms! In the end I sold it for the engine to some Polish lads. Volkswagen you should be ashamed of the way you treat your dwindling customer base.
The charging curve for this battery type is too low for this battery temperature with this SoC!
This ID.4 easily manages 175kW at 2% and a battery temperature of 25 degrees. At 15 degrees, around 130kW should be possible.
Battery warranty is 8y and 70%, so wait a year or so and book in so they'll finally have to do something about it.
How about taycan?
Is 398.5V normal for a 100% charged battery or is it a bit low?
Does the battery deliver peak power? Low charging rate also indicates a loss of cells and is around 20% lower than you expected.
No, 23% degredation is nicht good. It isn't normal. This maybe due to the car sitting unplugged with low SoC. A few months ago my battery lost 0.76% of its SoH from nowhere on a corsa E sitting in cold without a charger attached. Spent £200 on a decent UK 3 pin charger and now problem is solved. No more degredation.
with this mileage and age, do you really think that this car has been sitting undriven for more than a day?!
This is not normal and there is definitely something wrong with the battery. Unfortunately, the remaining capacity is still within 70% according to the warranty. Either VW will now repair it as a gesture of goodwill or he will have to keep driving until it drops below 70%.
I wonder if someone knows what is the manufacture of the battery cell in this particular iD4 ether LG or SK this would be interesting to see the trend if one is better than the other one. Edit. Now O have done it bit more research I think all early ID cars had LG packs but it would be interesting to know if SK battery are better for degradation I heard that the SK charges faster.
Well that wont tell you all the story, in producton cells are not same same grade so they get sorted and priced by there rating. While one company buys only S grade cells, others might buy B or C grade.
Looks like it was SK Inovation pack. It is a bad battery with big voltage difference in sells.
I also have a Audi Q4 35 with 52kWh net battery with 7500km and half year old. I made 2 days ago a long trip and from 100% I managed to do only 180km with 24kWh/100km. About the charging… only max 68kWh from a 300kW charger. Only from a Tesla charger I saw more than 100kWh.
If you drove it to zero, that would mean your battery has only about 180x240 = 43 kWh capacity left. That would mean battery degradation is about 17%. That is not good, not good atall.
If you have a new Q4 35 the battery is only 45kwh net. Not 52kwh.. I know Björn will test this type of car.. this is normal with slow charging... With software 3.2 you was told to have faster Charging atleast over 100kw. God luck..
@@hanslundstrom245 I picked it up on June last year and from factory they said that it has the new software that enables charging speeds until 135kWh. The funny part is that I saw only 2 times speeds around 103kWh and both times was on Tesla V3 chargers, on Ionity it stick to 60kWh.
In conclusion, well built car, but crappy batteries.
@@xXxM4nuxXx . Its a nice car. Much better in feeling then ID 4-5.
With 3.2 I can get OTA update.. but my is slow charging both Ac/Dc
My id3 had some faulty cells and has now been at the dealer's shop almost a month to change some modules. Hopefully it'll be back at the end of the month