I’m glad you did this one. We need to emphasize obedience while also being clear that our best obedience will still be tainted with sinful thoughts, actions, and motivations.
Oh, one other thing: if you want to have a little bit of fun, ask a Methodist what John Wesley thought of the sacraments. You will see that modern methodism does not agree with John Wesley’s original view of baptism or the Lord supper.
As somebody who has spent time in denominations that advocated entire sanctification, I can v erify that this essay is essentially correct. Wesley himself is forced to redefine sin in order to make ES plausible. The result of that is a strange silence in modern Wesleyan-influenced churches about people struggling with sin. They’ll give it other names (shortcomings, mistakes, etc) but there is an unspoken assumption that nobody is actually sinning-or at least it came across that way. Insofar as that Wesley preached the true gospel (which, in fairness, he did many times), I appreciate him. But he got sanctification VERY wrong.
@J. Dean As someone who came from the Wesleyan tradition. I still have extreme respect for Wesley, but you're right. He got sin and sanctification wrong in a way that feels similar to Eastern Orthodoxy.
@@Outrider74 that standard is correct, even if the presumption is wrong. Those who struggle and fail are unbelievers, those who struggle and succeed have the faith. The question of perfectionism isn't about that though, it's strictly about whether concupiscence is sin. The modern error that even those who struggle and are overcome by sin will inherit eternal life has imprinted itself in top of the old one, but it really belongs to discussion of the epicurian delusion.
@@Zorlig No dispute there. In the book of Concord it clearly states that "If good works do not follow faith, faith is false and not true." And any parishioner who is engaged in gross and impenitent sin is forbidden to take communion in the divine service. Despite there being Lutherans (especially of the Forde stripe) who want to be as weak on the law as possible, confessional Lutheranism affirms that impenitent sin is damning sin, and that the Christian life is one of a regular habit of mortifying the flesh and walking by the Spirit. But struggling will involve failure to some degree. Not impenitent wallowing in sin as a pattern, to be sure, but there is a reality that Christians can and do sin. Jesus tells us in the Lord's Prayer that asking God for forgiveness of our sins is to be a regular part of our prayer life, implying we will need it on a regular basis. Again: NOT living in sin, but living to righteousness with the reality that we will still be guilty of falling short of that perfect righteousness and will need to seek forgiveness for it. I like how my former pastor phrased it, "I'm less concerned about your sin than I am your impenitence." That was a good way of putting it.
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I actually came from the Wesleyan tradition before coming to lutheranism. The doctrine of entire sanctification helped me in that journey.
I’m glad you did this one. We need to emphasize obedience while also being clear that our best obedience will still be tainted with sinful thoughts, actions, and motivations.
Oh, one other thing: if you want to have a little bit of fun, ask a Methodist what John Wesley thought of the sacraments. You will see that modern methodism does not agree with John Wesley’s original view of baptism or the Lord supper.
Wow this one was already lost in fables by 3:30
seethe and cope, apostate
As somebody who has spent time in denominations that advocated entire sanctification, I can v erify that this essay is essentially correct.
Wesley himself is forced to redefine sin in order to make ES plausible. The result of that is a strange silence in modern Wesleyan-influenced churches about people struggling with sin. They’ll give it other names (shortcomings, mistakes, etc) but there is an unspoken assumption that nobody is actually sinning-or at least it came across that way.
Insofar as that Wesley preached the true gospel (which, in fairness, he did many times), I appreciate him. But he got sanctification VERY wrong.
@J. Dean
As someone who came from the Wesleyan tradition. I still have extreme respect for Wesley, but you're right. He got sin and sanctification wrong in a way that feels similar to Eastern Orthodoxy.
@@Outrider74 that standard is correct, even if the presumption is wrong. Those who struggle and fail are unbelievers, those who struggle and succeed have the faith. The question of perfectionism isn't about that though, it's strictly about whether concupiscence is sin. The modern error that even those who struggle and are overcome by sin will inherit eternal life has imprinted itself in top of the old one, but it really belongs to discussion of the epicurian delusion.
@@Zorlig No dispute there. In the book of Concord it clearly states that "If good works do not follow faith, faith is false and not true." And any parishioner who is engaged in gross and impenitent sin is forbidden to take communion in the divine service. Despite there being Lutherans (especially of the Forde stripe) who want to be as weak on the law as possible, confessional Lutheranism affirms that impenitent sin is damning sin, and that the Christian life is one of a regular habit of mortifying the flesh and walking by the Spirit.
But struggling will involve failure to some degree. Not impenitent wallowing in sin as a pattern, to be sure, but there is a reality that Christians can and do sin. Jesus tells us in the Lord's Prayer that asking God for forgiveness of our sins is to be a regular part of our prayer life, implying we will need it on a regular basis. Again: NOT living in sin, but living to righteousness with the reality that we will still be guilty of falling short of that perfect righteousness and will need to seek forgiveness for it.
I like how my former pastor phrased it, "I'm less concerned about your sin than I am your impenitence." That was a good way of putting it.