Richard Dawkins: can atheists embrace 'cultural Christianity'? | SpectatorTV
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- čas přidán 5. 04. 2024
- Richard Dawkins, one of the world’s most famous atheists, told the Spectator earlier this year that if he had to choose between Islam and Christianity, he’d go for the latter. He’s gone further this week and described himself as a ‘cultural Christian’, but what does that mean? And does it make him a hypocrite? Fraser Nelson discusses with Revd Sally Hitchiner and writer Esme Partridge.
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the thumbnail tricked me into thinking you were gonna have dawkins on to speak for himself.
well played
Much of what Dawkins said has been misrepresented by all sides of this debate . Sign of the times .
100% even this. its painfully clear what he meant
@@Enhancedlies Thanks . Dawkins remains an atheist. I’m a Christian. Hope he finds Christ. One has to loose Ego to do it . I still struggle .
He’s been saying the exact same thing since at least 2012, were someone revealed one of his Twitter posts, from then, which expressed the same sentiment.
@@Dude0000 Yes . He has not changed his view . Always interesting to listen to him
@@vladtheimpaler8995 I share your struggle, too.
But going to church, on Easter Sunday, certainly helped, and I’m definitely going again in the morning. What will be, will be, I guess. I’m just trying to be open to all possibilities.
Oh, it’s all so tedious. This is always the position Richard Dawkins has held. Props to the vicar here who was very reasonable and didn’t fall into the daft trap of being hostile about it all.
Edit: Never mind, she starts down some of the most embarrassingly patronising nonsense later in the interview.
And it’s an incoherent position, worthy of condescension. Dawkins fanboys are so cringe.
@@lectorintellegat If you think using nonsense internet insults is a coherent argument, I am afraid you yourself could probably stand to do some self-reflection.
When he is talking about Cultural Christianity he means Anglicanism, I doubt he has a good word to say about the Catholics and the Presbyterians.
So he believes in Anglican trans lesbian Vicars? 😂
Well, the Catholics are around for a bit longer than these others.
It has dawned, a little late on RD,. that his relentless attacks on Christianity has left a vacuum for the religious impulse to be be filled by wokism and Islam.
The values Christians hold are, on the whole, good values. We don't have to believe in the immaculate conception to agree.
facepalm
We haven't filled the void that collapsing Christianity created unfortunately.
@@evolassunglasses4673 Unfortunately? What is written is written. Islam is not looking for converts, it isn't hungry for people, that's christianity's job. Islam can stand on its own without people, think about it or ask your local Mufti to explain that to you.
@@evolassunglasses4673 Yes. If we don't believe in anything, we'll believe anything. 🤣
If you don't believe in the nature and personhood of the uncreated God, then you don't believe Christian values are built on anything more than shifting sand. If you believe their values are built on shifting sand, those values have no permanence of objectivity.
I do, after experienced the both cultures. I happily go to church and enjoy being part of a Christian community. Our minister knows I am a non believer. He is intelligent, funny and welcoming. His church members also are very welcoming.
I think you can find a good many regular and devoted members of church congregations who don't actually believe some or all of the christian faith. I was once told by a Roman Catholic that " the best part of being a Catholic is that you don't have to believe". Why should Anglicans be any different? It's a friendly club. Why argue about it, when even fervent believing christians often cannot agree with each other about what christianity is?
So my understanding of Dawkins' stance is that he does not in any way believe in any of the claims of the religion the bible or the god. He has no interest in following the religion, nor would he encourage anyone to follow it. But religion has undoubtedly had a HUGE impact on Britain, British life and British culture. To understand Christianity helps us understand so much about our country. It helps us understand our history, our literature, our laws, our music, our language, our morality. It is a major part of understanding who we are as Brits and how we got here. It's an opinion I share. I hold a lot of value in understanding the religion, but very little in following it. I want to see the churches and cathedrals stay open as I think it's a great insight into our history, into understanding the minds of people who lived in the past. I think that they can be beautiful additions to any city. The one that always comes to mind first is York Minster. My favorite city of York would never be the same without the Minster. And I want to see it stay exactly where it is a reminder of our history. I also want it to stay as a reminder of the fact that religion is so messed up that whilst millions across the country were dying of easily preventable diseases and issues such as starvation and cold, the Minster was built over 250 at great expense and nothing was done to help the dying and the dead. Churches and Cathedrals can be a great reminder of this. That people suffered whilst money was wasted on a God who was killing us. So I think this is very much where Dawkins comes from. He values the church as a source of understanding. He might even value it as a source of togetherness for those who need it in their lives. But in no way does this mean he does believe any of it or ever will do.
Well I was an atheist & I grew up in an atheist family & community & my mum always told me there is no God. But one day an angel visited me & showed me the future & it all came true within hours. So I know from experience that angels exist. I see christians arguing with each other & I see that there are countless different versions of the bible that all say completely different things. You only have to change one word in a sentence to make the entire sentence say the opposite of what it originally said. So I think Christianity is like a kaleidoscope with endless variables & differences of opinion amongst its followers. But the story of Jesus is like the story of a superhero that stands above all other stories & it serves as a rock for people to hold onto in the swirling currents of chaos in the world.
Did you actually observe this "angel"?
In like manner, the Muslims have Mohamed and, in a way, the Catholics their Mary. We should strive to find a way for these superheroes to bring us together, not drive us apart. The Ecumenical Church brings Christian communities together. Well now we need bigger hearts to bring all faiths together so that we can truly live side by side. And, yes, that needs include the atheists and agnostics.
The question in Northern Ireland is - are you a catholic atheist or a protestant atheist ? In Richards case the answer would be Christian atheist. Anybody brought up in a society absorbs the norms and ways of that society. Hegemony is a very powerful force . Religions in general are a blueprint for people living together, a set of rules that allow society to function but an interventionist God and the concept of an afterlife is a human construct or if you prefer a “ make believe”( no pun intended). The gods originally offered an explanation for the unexplainable and the interpretation of these explanations evolved to become a means of control and power.
Missleading title - it isn't actually an interview with Dawkins
Religion to me is a SPIRIT of helping people in productive ways to improve every aspect of their lives positively by benefiting humanity now 🎉
Most importantly, the law of jurisdiction must accommodate everyone, the people of faith and the people of no faith as well 🎉
“Christian culture” comes from European pagan traditions. You can see signs of both on some churches in the UK.
I can remember a church going, bible reading christian saying to me once that they thought dawkins attending a carol service during christmas celebrations was evidence of his faith. Whatever the case, the vicar seemed very nice, and esma partridge, I thought, was a dead ringer for laura marlings possible twin sister. Very beautiful, all round. ❤
Take a drive around Birmingham . Tell me after that which faith you would prefer in Britain.
If you need a manual on how not to be an asshole then religion is for you. You do not need a belief system if you can control yourself.
You used Richard's face to promote your video, then don't have him on it?
I would rather say "cultural greco-romanity". Which is more important to western culture than Christianity.
It's not like if "thou shall not kill" or "thou shall not have 69 with thy neighbor's wife" were unknown concepts in the Roman Empire before Christianity.
Those laws were encoded in Roman Law, in a sort of law that western lawyers today can understand, unlike Biblical Law.
Cultural Christian is a thing. We celebrate Christianized holidays that were originally Pagan.
Becoming a Cultural Christian is NOT a step towards becoming a Christian. It may be a step towards becoming a Right Winger. Or to becoming, worse yet, a snob. Because to tell the truth there are leftwingers who are snobs as well, through their snobbery is more refined. Some leftwingers are calling Netanyahu a right-winger, but really shouldn´t we call him an arrogant so and so? Shouldn´t we say that his way of treating Palestinians is above all arrogant, and NOT that it is above all Right Wing? That it is appalling because it is morally appalling and not that it typifies a type of politics that we can neatly characterize in terms of a spectrum. The idea of such a spectrum is arrogant because it pretends that evil can it be neatly understood and expressed in humanly rational categories.that we pretend to dominate. I am a Catholic priest. When I was in Holland I remember how some people would speak of the Catholics in Holland as a Blood Group. If you turn Catholics (of Christians) into a blood group I think you are missing the point of Christianity. One is a Christian when one is born from above (John, chapter three). It is not carnal. Cultural Christianity is what happens when Christians become snobbish and clubby. It is a corruption of Christianity.
I was expecting Dawkins on the episode, instead I gwt a ponce and two random stuck up bints. Wonderful!
Dawkins has long called himself a cultural Christian (before meeting Sally). This narrative of it being a new development for him and a sign of a potential conversion is desperate and ignorant.
Yes, he's being saying this for over ten years now
Having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof.
What is a "form of Godliness"? Please present an example.
I was quoting Scripture and expected that the context made further explanation unnecessary. I include the reference but the general explanation is that the Apostle Paul was warning that a time would come when we would have a Christianity without Christ. Seems that we are somewhere pretty close.
2 Timothy 3:5 KJV
[5] having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Maranatha. >
@@barnythepreacher4559 Did you read my question?
Nobody loves Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris et al more than I do ... but they want the Skyscraper without the foundations, it cannot be done! ❤ love listening to them though
I agree with Richard, I am also a cultural Christian. It’s an important point, it’s been very much part of my life, I am also a non believer.
That’s absurd.
@TheKayzieMichelle no. It's perfectly normal. I'm an Atheist, and I was raised Christian as a child. My values are pretty much the same as Christians. And I love Christmas because my whole family gets together and we share a nice meal and presents.
Do all your sentences contain oxymorons?
I feel sorry for you that you do not know God but in these times we all need to join together to combat islam
@@Hitogata _"My values are pretty much the same as Christians."_
*He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.*
If you don't endeavor to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength and all your mind, then your values are not remotely similar to Christians' values. If you don't believe that God exists, you are ontologically incapable of holding the same values as Christians.
I’m astonished no one understands Dawkins’ motives for identifying as a cultural Christian. As an ex-Muslim, it is obvious to me: forgiveness; family unit of husband and one wife, as opposed to the disastrous one man and many wives; tolerance of other religions, to name but a few.
And I understand his appreciation for the beauty of church structures and wanting to preserve them.
I feel the same about some of the beautiful mosques around the Muslim world. I don’t give a damn about the Muslim- prized AlAqsa mosque.
Above all else, Christ was a good man and his deeds reflect it. Mohammed, on the other hand, was an utter misogynist, a very selfish man. He raised villages and killed the those who would not convert to Islam and took the women as slaves. He was a jihadi. And that’s why today’s Islam,
radicalized in 1979 by Khomeini, is so brutal. Jihadis are following in the footsteps of Mohammed, who is considered a PERFECT MAN. He married a 6 yo and had sex with her when she was 9.
Don’t tell me that was acceptable in that era to justify it with cultural relativism.
Mohammed was a jihadi.
Atheist can enjoy cultural aspects of any religions from Buddhism, Islam to Hinduism. Denial of stupid idea of god should bar anyone from enjoying Biryani, Curries, sweets, musics and arts.
We were once a Christian nation, we call that period in our history the Dark Ages.
What a ridiculous comment to make lol
🤔 I think that the height of our Christianity was a period of enlightenment. I do concede that we are embarking upon a new dark age though.
What's coming will be even darker
Love Richard ❤
My morality and traditions are based upon the Catholic faith. That said, doubt of the existence of God is accepted as a personal phenomenon, one that people go through, sometimes many times. Faith runs side by side with the actions, beliefs and moral codes that are taught. So you can be a Christian, live the faith, and have periods of doubt and persevere in your quest for faith. For example, the narrative of “doubting Thomas”, the Apostle who did not believe Christ had risen, struggled and went through despair and questioned until he had (presumably scientific evidence by observation) put his hands into the wounds of the risen Jesus. So disbelief is part of faith, one that is part of the personal journey.
What would be an example of a "Christian" moral code?
@@Theo_Skeptomai I think the ten commandments, murder, theft, adultery, and such as the groundwork. But uniquely for Christians, also forgiveness, temperance, charity, aspiration towards fellowship, peace, sacrifice, and emulation of the words of Christ. Acknowledging that humans fail, and building a world we can live with. As each age confronts new challenges, the priorities may shift to evolve focus, as we shrug off negative cultural practices such as barbaric forms of death penalty, prejudices, forms of slavery, new priorities become the focus, such as striving for peace, stewardship of the earth, feeding the hungry, responding to those in crisis. There is always room for self improvement. I do think the aspiration to be a better person en masse is what drives us forward as a society. Even if one does not personally have faith, one can see beauty and wonder and want to preserve that.
Why does religion focus of morality, with very little mention of the truth?
I believe religion, the alleged deity, is most strongly associated with the truth, being our 'guiding light' & omnipotent, this is the whole truth, morality is at best a subset of truth.
I am fascinated that for a couple of thousand years, much of humanity pursued a common singular explanation, yet, with academic revelations disproving a fare percentage of religions thesis, we are now attempting to define a sustainable harmonious system of many truths....
Secularism is a starting point, not the destination.
True, accurate Universalism is the goal.
I view myself as New Conservative, progressive conservative, a Universal Humanist.
note:- Conservation is hardcoded into the fundamental shape of the universe.
I think from Copernicus on, humanity has been in our evolutionary adolescence. A phase in which we learn to master the administration of our environment. Since leaving the water for land, life has had no greater challenge.
The church should be at the base of academia.
Data Management, the precursor to Mathematics & Language, the progenitor of all knowledge.
Doctor of Data Management Science (D.DM.Sc).
The Golden Rule is the basis of equity law. It isn't Christian, or Mosaic, it's logical.
Why is it logical to follow the Golden Rule, if it seems you could benefit more by not doing so?
@billbadson7598 Because to treat another human in a manner that you would want another human to treat you is REASONABLE. Do you agree?
@@Theo_Skeptomai _"Because to treat another human in a manner that you would want another human to treat you is REASONABLE. Do you agree?"_
1. Define REASONABLE
2. By what standard?
There are countless examples where you could materially benefit by treating someone else worse than you would want to be treated. What objective moral reality makes the case that treating them the way you would want to be treated is preferable? What gives authority to that objective moral reality?
@billbadson7598 Reasonable means rational; within the bounds of reason; justifiable; of sound judgment. Did you really not know what the word meant or were you simply dodging a straightforward question?
@@billbadson7598 The Golden Rule standard. Are you drunk?
What a silly and patronising cleric - you do yourself no justice with that tone.
Summary of Dawkins' interview: "Please, Christians! Help me for the love of Saint Darwin! I can't stand seeing Muslims ruining my England and my Europe! I need your help! Help me😭😭🙏🙏"
Islam is on the front foot.
New atheists like Dawkins are incredibly superficial thinkers.
Without the Truth (Christ), the Beauty and the Goodness will fade away.
Wokie , wokie....??
The god industry is huge and generates many billions of dollars a year.
I'm with Richard. You don't have to believe in the Greek God Athena to appreciate the Parthenon.
What, you appreciate the ruins of the Parthenon?
The one that's got 3 walls and no roof and is like a curio for tourists to gawk at for a few hours before they visit the gift shop?
Sure, you lads like to carry on like you're cultural Greeks but let's get real for a moment here. The Parthenon is the rotted bones of a dead civilization, and your 'appreciation' is the faintest shadow compared to actual Athena-ists back in the day worshipping in that temple.
But hey, you're probably onto something here. The way things are going in 1000 years one of the "New-Europeans" will say they 'appreciate' the Oxford Cathedral, and that'll also be a bombed out ruin. Or maybe a mosque.
And.....? I didn't see any solution you offered. Do you care to provide a solution now?
People's enjoyment of music, is Christian?
Beautiful architecture, is Christian?
Morality, is Christian?
Now, Islam intertwined with western values too.
What the smeg is happening!?! 😠
She is discussing Christianity’s influence on music, morality, architecture, etc. as for morality, Christianity is the only religion that says, “turn the other cheek”. This encourages forgive and forget, ie move on- something Islam never wanted.
Islam, modern Islam of today even forbids music.
Liberalism
@@TheKayzieMichelle She seems like a nice lady, but to say she's expressing Christian values takes the religion so far from its origin, that it means almost nothing at all.
I do not take personal credit for the British Empire when it was at its peak, but I am British, notice I missed out, Empire. Now, at what point is something no longer regarded as, British? Is America British? It was highly influenced but, it's no longer British.
It's like saying we are culturally Catholic because of the Roman Empire. Are we still Roman? If we are we'd still be considered Italian by this standard. I love the Italians but, no, we're not Italian.
Btw, Buddhism (They're not the only ones.), if you want to go word for word in turn the other cheek, I think you're gonna have real issues catering for bible translation.
@@TheKayzieMichelle That was my point. Islam is not compatible with Christianity, it's not even compatible with western values imo. This ladies religion, is putting Christianity (The west.) in a very dangerous situation. I am open to welcoming people of most faiths, Islam included, but I'm not open to allowing them to impose their customs. The Trojan horse was accepted a long time ago, there's a spiritual battle that's started and most are still sleeping, in time, far worse will come if places like CoE, don't act.
No. you are platforming hateful rhetoric
Dawkins seems pathologically obsessed with God. I wonder what that says about him?
True 😂😂😂❤
Dawkins isn't obessesed with this mythological god. I would worry what this idiotic statement says about you. And, I would suggest you think before you type.
Admitting Christianity is preferable pretty much means you are a believer. The difference between Christianity and others is forgiveness. Grudges are forbidden. Love your neighbor, love your enemies.
Jainism is preferable to Islam, so now I'm a believer in Jainism too, right?
No. It means Islamic values are horrible. Christian values, for the most part, are pretty good.
What is so difficult to understand? Atheists can share your values and culture, but not believe in your god.
And HAHAHA if you think the only difference between Christianity and other religions is "forgiveness" you should try reading some books, like the Quran 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@HitogataThese Christian values didn't prevent Christians from depopulating 3 continents of their native inhabitants.
Science is the study of creation Christ is God of creation
He's a sad case now. This was a pathetic attempt to hedge his bets as no one dies an atheist. His cold clinical emptiness has caught up with him and now he just seems confused and agnostic.
Lots of people die Atheists. I've heard several cases. And I'm sure I'll die an Atheist. And I underestand what he means! I was raised Christian. My values are similar. I love spending time with my whole family on Christmas, sharing a nice meal and presents. We do live in a culturally Christian society. And I certainly prefer it over Islamic society!
He was like that from the get-go.
He helped bring islam in. He sucks 😮😮
"This is historically a Christian country. I'm a cultural Christian in the same way many of my friends call themselves cultural Jews or cultural Muslims. So, yes, I like singing carols along with everybody else. I'm not one of those who wants to purge our society of our Christian history. If there's any threat these sorts of things, I think you will find it comes from rival religions and not from atheists." - Richard Dawkins 2007
What do you mean by "now"?
@@olanordmann2743 Not anymore, only in your mind. Is abortion legal in the eyes of God, no. Is homosexuality legal in the eyes of God, read about Sodom and Gomorrah for the answer to that one if you cannot work it out for yourself. Did your God create two genders, yes. Are you seeing a pattern here. Next Jesus (AS) was sent as a prophet for the Jews and as he told you he was not sent for Gentiles. Like him, his disciples prayed in the Temple as Jews as were the vast majority of the people you heard about being fed the bread and fish. Further, why did you steal the 10 Commandments from the Jews and then break every single one of them? Why are your drawings of Jesus in the form of a Caucasian, he was a Jew, not a zionist. Here is a relevant piece from the Quran that we obey.
Ayah al-Ma`idah (The Table, The Table Spread) 5:51
O believers! Take neither Jews nor Christians as guardians-they are guardians of each other. Whoever does so will be counted as one of them. Surely Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
So, now you know why you don't actually have any Muslim "friends".
😇
It is not I who lives but Christ who lives in me. Any good I do is not because of me but because of Him. Any act of goodness, kindness, patience, forbearance, love or joy is an act of worship to Him. Christianity is not a pick and mix and its not for 'good' people. Its for people like me who know they are sinners and are lost without the salvation of Christ. It is this foundation on which the Gospel was spread. I'd happily get the Cof E to sell every building and use the money to turn around crumbling communities the government has abandoned than listen to one more well educated and heeled athiest talk platitudes about middle England chocolate box Christianity. The real stuff is grubby, raw, painful and hard work. That is what Dawkins admires and that's great. But to willfully ignore the truth and life it is all built on misses the point entirely. You can refuse to believe in Him if you want, lots do. And it serves them well to do so. As for me and my house. We will serve the Lord. The grubby one that hung out with prostitutes, taxmen and never once did the the flower rota or worried about leaking church roofs but instead about how to tell people about God and what God wanted. Richard Dawkins and Tom Holland want all that too. But they don't want to surrender themselves to the truth its all built on. Boys, however weird 'unbelievable,' you find it. Its true and if you carry on clinging to your athiest faith you can watch what's left of real Christianity dissolve around you and just be left in your stained glass houses to throw stones at each other. He's alive. It is all true. And He is coming back.
So, you are not alive?
@@Theo_Skeptomai I am reborn of the Spirit. But no. I am not alive like Him. Not yet. Not until He returns. I answer this for anyone who sincerely wants to learn. That first sentence was a quote from Paul in The New Testament as he tries to grapple with and explain to new believers how he went from hating and killing these ridiculous Christians to becoming one of them.