Ever since origins released people like to ignore big ports of sonic 1 & 2, CD is the exception. Kinda makes me wish they never made origins in the first place.
@@mcninja6592 glad to know I wasn't the only one who was hit wrong when he mentioned Sonic Origins rather than the mobile version, of which the Origins version is a port of
@@Sauceyjames You only had 30 seconds and nothing in the prototype alludes to the Spin Dash. Plus, it was the first time the Spin Dash was ever in anything.
Bumping into the wall was likely made specifically for the Nick Arcade version, because I don't see anyone at Sega during this period thinking that was a good idea for the final game. They were on a time limit and whatnot, so anything to make it more difficult to get X amount of rings
I remember seeing the prototype title screen on a holographic trading card back in the 90's, I didn't think much of it, I assumed it was new/alternate art made for the cards. 10:36 - ...I've NEVER heard anyone call it "Metro Pollus" Zone
I wish Wood Zone had made it into the final game. I'm glad they restored Hidden Palace in Origins. The desert stage got reused in Mania so there's that. Funny how a couple of the prototype zone names got reused later like Neo Green Hill in Sonic Advance and Dust Hill in Sonic Lost World.
They didn't restore it in Origins They restored it in the Sonic 2 Mobile remake that came out over a decade ago Sonic Origins is just a port of that remake
@@pojr My guess is that it had to do with responsiveness/framerate issues - dropping frames from an animation makes it feel snappier, because our brains fill in the missing "info" anyway. Even if the movement doesn't change whatsoever, that perception makes Sonic feel like he's reacting to the input quicker.
@pojr , Probably because if the animation is more smoother ,it has more frames and thus more storage , they probably redid it to save space in the cartridge.
These sorts of things are pretty common in the high stakes console world, where very tight release schedules sometimes limit what can be included in a game. Some ideas have to be abandoned because there simply isn't enough time to implement them. No doubt Sega programmers were feeling the heat as the release date for Sonic 2 was approaching and they still have to debug, play test and manufacture the cartridges. Better to release a solid smaller game than a larger buggy game, especially in an age where ROM updates were not possible and the internet didn't exist yet.
Ur factually wrong Internet did exist but it wasn't accessible to the world only for business and corporations to develop it to create the web & OSes thanks to Terminal Internet was just a binary code program until 1983 then became terminal wth graphics until early 90s then further developped to create web and networks until late 90s for the web and internet to rise in the early 2000s .
@@iwanttocomplain I've never owned a Genesis (I was a SNES nerd) but I imagine the original intention for the game was way too ambitious for the amount of time they had to develop it, so they had to eventually cut out whole areas and even levels to get it out in time. That's one thing that's great about the modern homebrew scene: They are not hampered by release dates or any time pressures. They can take their time and get it exactly the way they want before releasing it. Some of these homebrews have been 3 or more years in the making.
@@JustWasted3HoursHere it's a shame STI never got to be a proper studio under Kalinski or more accurately Mark Cerny. Comix Zone and The Ooze show they have talent but just not quite finished. Those games are so creative and inventive but only 90% finished which I find disappointing as in those two games, STI found it's voice. It was Kalinski and Cerny's job to do everything wrong at all times and come up with garbage that is Sonic 2. All you have to do is press down+a then let go straight away and just make your way through the boring game like that just looking at him roll along. I was playing S2 last night finding bugs and being utterly depressed remembering the crushing disappointment this game was by adding nothing new and just rolling back the design idea of combined momentum for the reward f seeing what you did. Not any more. Now he spins on a different axis, visually...! But of course if you slow down he just drops off it. That adds nothing but takes something away instead. Less control now. He needs to be in the right place, at the right time, standing still, 0mph, to make the game like you. OK now watch the screen move for a bit. It's only a minutes, trust.
Coming across the original Sonic 2 Beta online in the early 2000s was something else, so many levels were cut from the final that were present in that beta version that it was just mind blowing at the time. I don't think any other prototype has had the same impact that one had in the early days of the internet.
Hiden palace is not only in Sonic Origins, it was also included in mobile port, in the death pit there is no longer spikes, the pit extends and player falls in Hiden Palace Zone
I remember these prototypes.. It was fun just to mess around with them and we eventually got several rom hacks based on them. Eventually some of said Rom Hackers made their own studio and were licensed by Sega to make official ports of Sonic 1 & 2 to Phones as well as CD to basically all systems, in the Sonic 2 remake Hidden Palace was a hidden zone you could access via the death pit in Mystic Cave Act 2. Then Sonic Mania came to exist. Funny how Sega actually joined forces with rom hackers to make better games, instead of whatever Nintendo is doing.
@@tomasrabelobelchiordemelo3422 For some yes, but I can def say that is not the case with games like Pokemon where they strike many fangames and rom hacks and produce garbage in comparison to some of those games. I am more talking in terms of how nintendo doesnt have respect for the very fans of franchises they enjoy.
Fun fact: if you go into the sonic 2 mobile port, go into mystic cave zone (act 2), one of the pits before the boss brings u to hidden palace zone I found it out myself cuz i sucked
Did you try the debug code when you played it? I’m curious whether or not that was available in those prototypes considering the level select was. And did you use the 19,65,09,17 level select or was there a different way to access it?
The level select code in both prototypes are the same, but you put in a button combination on the title screen. You don't have to use the sound test. Debug mode is in both prototypes as well, but I didn't use them.
Hidden Palace was actually added to more future ports like mobile and origins. And Sand Shower was scrapped but then came back as Mirage Saloon in Sonic Mania. It is also confirmed that Mirage Saloon is on West Side Island because you get launched into Oil Ocean by one of those gun launchers. Good to know that they didn’t completely get rid of these zones!
In the Nick Arcade prototype, the reason why you get pink-screened at Final Zone was because, going further will trigger the Egg Crusher boss fight, however since the Egg Crusher's data was stripped from the game, and since the game couldn't find it, this will cause a runtime error and crash the game. Also, correction about Hidden Palace Zone. Hidden Palace Zone was first officially introduced in the 2013 mobile remaster by Christian Whitehead. This was accessed by falling down a pit that takes you there which originally was an inescapable pit of spikes in the original Sega Genesis game. Sonic Origins's source code for Sonic 2 came from the 2013 remaster game, just like Sonic 1, and Sonic CD which received a 2011 remaster. The idea of visiting the Hidden Palace Zone for the Chaos Emeralds was revisited in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, where once you have both cartridges together, you can access the Hidden Palace Zone via super rings in order to get the Super Emeralds to become Hyper Sonic.
The missing title screen in the manual became the title game for Sonic 2 on the Game Gear, though they flipped Sonic and Tails, and had Sonic show two fingers instead of a thumbs up.
Knock-back could be nice actually if the effect still allows you to control Sonic => imagine a reduced bounce and that you can still do some things, so you could use the bounce speed to your advantage, like run the other direction without starting from speed 0.
Fun fact, Sonic 2 was developed in only 9 months. The game had almost 50 bug testers. That's more than twice the size of most dev teams that worked on any Sonic game. Despite this, Sonic 2 wasn't a fully playable game till two days before completion.
The knockback mechanic would've been terrible, but implementing something similar for when you get stuck in a wall would've been better than just calling it "one of Dr. Robotnik's diabolical traps" in the manual.
5:17 Hidden Palace is on the mobile version of Sonic the hedgehog 2 just with a level select code and it's entirely different since we have no buttons to Press
I remember the Simon Wai beta well. 20 years ago when I started to go to Internet cafes because we didn't yet had fast Internet at home, I looked up ROM sides because very young me didn't know better at the time that this was actually illegal stuff. Anyhow, finding any ROMs was rather difficult and I wanted to play Sonic 2 badly on my PC. This beta was the only Sonic 2 ROM I could find for the longest time. It bored me rather quickly back then too but these days, I can quite appreciate beta ROMs and find enjoyment in them.
I remember being in KayBee toys in the early 90s and playing a Sonic game. I think it was 1. and the idle animation, when you don't hit anything and Sonic gets impatient, he actually gets outy a yo-yo and starts playing with it. I never saw him do that in any other release of Sonic 1.
Someone needs to make a sonic origins mod where the original vision of hidden palace zone was put in, with you being sent there after getting all chaos emeralds
Is the debug mode available in the early prototypes? If so, it may be interesting to explore the levels that end up blocking you from progressing further.
the music in sonic 2 is based on music composed by masato nakamura, you can hear the pre console music called "masa's demos" they are slower in tempo for unknown reasons, the game versions have more changes from the pre console versions the early build music from simon wai sounds closer to the original demos
Emerald hill zone, chemical plant and hilltop zone might be the oldest maps in the game and oil ocean and airship might be the newest with casino night in the middle
Hilariously, the feature of Sonic being knocked back by running into a wall at full speed did resurface in Sonic Unleashed! The Wii and PS2 versions, to be exact. If you boosted into a wall, Sonic would cartoonishly flatten against the wall like a pancake, fall to the ground (still flattened), then return to normal after a second. It only happened if you were boosting and there was no risk of being sent backward into a hazard, so it was more funny than frustrating.
I could've sworn Sonic Heroes also had that as a feature, if you ran into a wall with enough speed, the character would just fall to the ground stunned for a bit before getting back up
Funnily enough, the "knockback" feature was implemented into a Sonic game many years later: The Wii/PS2 version of Sonic Unleashed. I think it works better in a game like that one, mostly because A) It punishes you for running and boosting mindlessly into walls, and B) It's hilarious when Sonic boosts into a wall and falls like a cartoon character.
Does the Saimon Wai build end after chemical plant ? I can swear i played something similar as a kid , a 4 games in one cartridge and i was so confused why it kept ending after chemical plant , i once start mashing random buttons on the title screen and got the level select screen i went to mystic cave zone only to be blocked off i kept trying until the time ran out. i honesly have no idea how i got this or how i entered the level select as a kid but it stayed in my head all this time.
No, after clicking start on Title Screen you start from Aquatic Ruin Zone, then Chemical Plant Zone, then Hill Top Zone, then Emerald Hill Zone and return to Title Screen
Hidden palace zone was also playable in sonic 2 on mobile done by Cristian Whitehead and the sand/desert zone did get a version of it put in sonic mania. Just a few minor fyi things.
I actually liked the sprites they cut out. It seems to give sonic more 'life' instead of his constant static side profile (aside the standing around sprite but thats about it). Also, I'm surprised there was no mention of debug mode where you can get to the places where you had no access to. Was debug mode not available during prototype?? I'd be very surprise if that were the case!
This is the game that caused the issues with Sega of America and Sega of Japan, these issues will ultimately lead Sega to bow out of the console race with the Dreamcast
I always took their *real* falling out of sync to be the 32X. There were plenty of bad signs before that though, that's just where it was like... everything before that I could write off as professional. Sega of Japan's handling of 32X was malicious *and* self-destructive.
You need to understand the point of prototypes. Its unlikely that such a feature would of remained after negative feedback. Game devs go through many many builds or prototypes, testing and tossing ideas until its finally decided what stays and what doesnt
Great video! It would seem to me that the available "Nick Arcade" prototype is not the same build they used on the show, because Tails doesn't appear to be included. As you mentioned, it's possible to lose Tails in these builds. However, we see footage of the players right at the beginning of a level, (such as at 2:47) and there's no sign of Tails.
@budgetcoinhunter oh, thanks. That's interesting. I wonder if the developers preferred it that way, or if it was a decision made with the TV show in mind.
Ugh, yea I remember that show of kids playing video games…quite possibly the worst bit of filler they could’ve gotten to fill a half an hour. Not only was it boring as heck, but the kids were absolutely MISERABLE at the objectives. I kid you not it was something close to miraculous for one of them to actually accomplish the task. Thank god infomercials came along to fill in that time slot…they were way more entertaining.
Honestly, the knockback mechanic, if toned down, limited to when not spinning, and canceled when running into something pushable, would have been potentially fun, adding just a little bit more of a challenge to speedruns.
how sure are we in using the term of a ‘rom hack’ as a development process? I would find it very odd that it would be rom hack if sega has all access to sonic 1 source code. It isn’t uncommon for game developers to build sequels using the prior game’s finished project as a starting point, and I would never consider that kind of development process as a rom hack.
More specifically, it tries to load the PLC's (Pattern load cues; essentially lists of art to be loaded in VRAM) for the boss, but in the prototype, they're overwritten by garbage data, which causes this crash. Even if you were to correct this tho, there's another problem: The code for the Final zone boss no longer exists (it just points to ObjectNull, like every other empty object slot)
Tbh i would really like a mod where that knockback mechanic is added back. I know it will ruin the game but i think it'd be fun to try Also, fun fact: the BGM used in Hidden Palace Zone is apperently the 2P BGM for Mystic Cave Zone. As it goes by "Mystic Cave Zone 2P" in Sonic Origins' Museum
I often have recurring nightmares about falling from great heights, and the number of times that it's happening in the prototype is triggering the same kind of... liminal-falling feeling quite strongly. It makes me wonder if the number of times I fell to the bottom of Chemical Plant Zone as a kid is something that contributed to the frequency of my re-experiencing this in my dreams.
I'm sorry. I was a kid who played all the genesis-era Sonic games as they were released and the notion that 2 is the best is just baffling to me. S3K is by far the superior game IMO.
Original level Order from concept arts: Present Time: Green Hill Zone (Early Emerald Hill Zone) Ocean Wind Zone (Cut Zone) Woods Zone (Early Wood Zone) (Cut Zone) Sand Shower Zone (Desert Zone from magazines) (Cut Zone) Metropolis Zone Warp Point (Cutscene) Ancient Time: Tropical Plant/Tropical Sun Zone (Cut Zone) Hill Top Zone Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus (Early Hidden Palace Zone) (Cut Zone) (Secret Zone) Rock World Zone (Cut Zone) (Winter version of Sand Shower Zone) Warp Point? (I don't know) (Cutscene) Ruined Present Time: Rock World Zone (Again,maybe a ruined version?) Oil Ocean Zone Dust Hill Zone (Early Mystic Cave Zone) Olimpus (Cutscene Version) Death Egg Zone Ancient Time After Big Tsunami: Hill Top Zone (Again) Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Again) Tropical Summer Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus (Cutscene Version) Future Time: Casino Night Zone Chemical Plant Zone Genocide City/Cyber City Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus? (Cutscene Version) Return To Ancient Time: Fire Mountain/Volcano Zone (Cut Zone) (Later replaced by Neo Green Hill Zone) Neo Death Egg Zone (Cut Zone) Note:Sonic The Hedgehog 2 was supposed to have time travel
Rock World Zone may have been a transition zone to the present, hence why the maps show it in two places. Olympus wasn't a zone. It may have evolved into Hidden Palace Zone based on its placement, however.
Corrections The reason there's two rock worlds in past and ruined present concept arts is because the past was the 1st plan before being moved to the ruined present. Also the tsunami thing was cut before the time travel was cut so it would be blue ocean then hill top before chemical plant That would mean in the ancient time it would just be tropical plant before going to the ruined present. Also tropical summer is an earlier name and they're the same zone Olympus would come after dust hill to travel into the ancient time again because metropolis aka the warp point was ruined. How the Olympus do that is because it's referenced as the 2nd warp point. It would appear I believe on the same spot as the ancient time concept art
Great video. I played the hell out of Sonic 2 when I was a kid. Do you know if there are prototype builds of Sonic CD? I'd love to see some stuff on that one!
To this day, long falls into the pit gives me serious anxiety. Many Sonic 2 levels for me felt floating and that one slip would drop me to my doom. Hated it. I got anxiety just watching this video with those unfinished level pit drops 😖
I'd love to know - in detail - the origins of that mechanic. Was it hints of Naka's fall from grace (as in, Naka came up with that terrible idea himself) or did some guy literally just say "why doesn't he get hurt when he runs head-first into walls?" and then they implemented it, before shortly realizing that guy was absolutely r*tarded and removed it. P.S. being a Sonic fan in the earlier years of the Internet and discovering there was a whole community around the SW prototype, and frantically reading and researching everything as a young Sonic autist was awesome.
That knock-back mechanic would have ruined the game. Cool to see a feature that was explored, tested, and cut for the right reasons.
no it wouldn't have ruined it at all.
pizza tower has that too and the game is perfectly fine with it included.
@Boomrainbownuke9608 just because one game does it well doesn't mean that it wouldn't ruin another game
@@Boomrainbownuke9608yeah, this is kinda a based take
People would find other ways to avoid it. Just like in Sonic Unwiished.
@@theoneandonly-qs1uwyeah, this is kinda a based take
"Finally though Hidden Palace was Included in Sonic Origins!"
Sonic 2 Mobile Port : *am i a joke to you?*
Sonic Origins is pretty much the mobile ports made by Taxmann, so it's kinda giving it credit?
Ever since origins released people like to ignore big ports of sonic 1 & 2, CD is the exception. Kinda makes me wish they never made origins in the first place.
Lol true. I would have mentioned that.
@@bingobo2551 the mobile versions are riddled with ads. Better to direct people to Origins.
@@suroguner your saying this as if you can’t pay $2. And before you say but you can’t pair a controller you can it’s an option.
11:49 Slight correction: This stage remake originated from the 2013 Mobile version of Sonic 2, which is what versions Origins is using.
i was kinda annoyed when he said that
@@mcninja6592 Same
he needs to do better with his research, otherwise imma unsub
@@mcninja6592real
@@mcninja6592 glad to know I wasn't the only one who was hit wrong when he mentioned Sonic Origins rather than the mobile version, of which the Origins version is a port of
I was always screaming at those kids on Nick's Arcade that they are playing the games wrong!
Blud didn't know that spin dash existed
@@SnuggleBear_80sThe game wasn't even out yet at the time
@@SonicTheCutehogno excuse, I would have found out
@@Sauceyjames You only had 30 seconds and nothing in the prototype alludes to the Spin Dash. Plus, it was the first time the Spin Dash was ever in anything.
The rumor was that they purposely only chose kids who didn't play video games to be on the show so they could be stingy with prizes.
the hidden palace zone actually made it into the sonic 2 remake for mobile.
Nice. Shame Sonic 3 Remake never happened (not a fan of Sonic Origins 🤢).
Yup, I heard it was rebuilt with a new layout right?
Came here to mention this - the mobile version of Sonic 2 from 2013 is the first official version with hidden palace
bro thinks he's a genius
@@darkzoyt9094 did he say he’s a genius..?
Man, I haven't seen Nick Arcade in close to 30 years. What a blast of nostalgia
Bumping into the wall was likely made specifically for the Nick Arcade version, because I don't see anyone at Sega during this period thinking that was a good idea for the final game. They were on a time limit and whatnot, so anything to make it more difficult to get X amount of rings
Good point. They might have done it to make the challenge harder.
I think I remember hearing that Mirage Saloon Zone in Sonic Mania was inspired by the scrapped Sand Shower Zone from the Sonic 2 prototypes
Really cool that they found a way to bring back an old zone in a new way.
I remember seeing the prototype title screen on a holographic trading card back in the 90's, I didn't think much of it, I assumed it was new/alternate art made for the cards.
10:36 - ...I've NEVER heard anyone call it "Metro Pollus" Zone
He is a troll.
I wish Wood Zone had made it into the final game. I'm glad they restored Hidden Palace in Origins. The desert stage got reused in Mania so there's that. Funny how a couple of the prototype zone names got reused later like Neo Green Hill in Sonic Advance and Dust Hill in Sonic Lost World.
They didn't restore it in Origins
They restored it in the Sonic 2 Mobile remake that came out over a decade ago
Sonic Origins is just a port of that remake
Neo green hill was also used in sonic pocket adventure
I do wonder how the final product of Wood Zone would have looked. I didn't love the art style of it, but maybe it would have been done.
Debug mode, man! Use debug mode!
Yea I'm saying that as well lol
Maybe back then debug mode didnt even exist?
@@Amakqait did
I know everyone Sonic fan knows debug mode or at least heard about it….it was kinda frustrating he didn’t use debug mode ☹️☹️
EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS
I remember helping to contribute to the Nick Arcade Sonic 2 purchase. Best $300 I ever spent, ngl
You did?
@@LocalAitch cool
Big ups to you, LocalH! I’ve browsed the Simon Wai Beta Forums and Sonic Retro over the years and knew I recognized your name. Big thanks!!
very suprising that the sonic 2 prototype running sprites were actually way smoother than the ones we got
Yeah, the walking animation has more frames. I wonder why they changed it.
@@pojr My guess is that it had to do with responsiveness/framerate issues - dropping frames from an animation makes it feel snappier, because our brains fill in the missing "info" anyway. Even if the movement doesn't change whatsoever, that perception makes Sonic feel like he's reacting to the input quicker.
Prototype Sonic 2 looks so cute and adorable.
sad boi
The sprite does look well animated. I wonder why they redid it.
@@pojrIt looks very weird and non expressive
@pojr , Probably because if the animation is more smoother ,it has more frames and thus more storage , they probably redid it to save space in the cartridge.
These sorts of things are pretty common in the high stakes console world, where very tight release schedules sometimes limit what can be included in a game. Some ideas have to be abandoned because there simply isn't enough time to implement them. No doubt Sega programmers were feeling the heat as the release date for Sonic 2 was approaching and they still have to debug, play test and manufacture the cartridges. Better to release a solid smaller game than a larger buggy game, especially in an age where ROM updates were not possible and the internet didn't exist yet.
Ur factually wrong Internet did exist but it wasn't accessible to the world only for business and corporations to develop it to create the web & OSes thanks to Terminal
Internet was just a binary code program until 1983 then became terminal wth graphics until early 90s then further developped to create web and networks until late 90s for the web and internet to rise in the early 2000s .
@@Darkparadox64 Not very useful to the average gamer if they can't access it, right chief?
This game is criminally short.
@@iwanttocomplain I've never owned a Genesis (I was a SNES nerd) but I imagine the original intention for the game was way too ambitious for the amount of time they had to develop it, so they had to eventually cut out whole areas and even levels to get it out in time. That's one thing that's great about the modern homebrew scene: They are not hampered by release dates or any time pressures. They can take their time and get it exactly the way they want before releasing it. Some of these homebrews have been 3 or more years in the making.
@@JustWasted3HoursHere it's a shame STI never got to be a proper studio under Kalinski or more accurately Mark Cerny. Comix Zone and The Ooze show they have talent but just not quite finished. Those games are so creative and inventive but only 90% finished which I find disappointing as in those two games, STI found it's voice.
It was Kalinski and Cerny's job to do everything wrong at all times and come up with garbage that is Sonic 2.
All you have to do is press down+a then let go straight away and just make your way through the boring game like that just looking at him roll along.
I was playing S2 last night finding bugs and being utterly depressed remembering the crushing disappointment this game was by adding nothing new and just rolling back the design idea of combined momentum for the reward f seeing what you did.
Not any more. Now he spins on a different axis, visually...! But of course if you slow down he just drops off it. That adds nothing but takes something away instead.
Less control now. He needs to be in the right place, at the right time, standing still, 0mph, to make the game like you.
OK now watch the screen move for a bit. It's only a minutes, trust.
Coming across the original Sonic 2 Beta online in the early 2000s was something else, so many levels were cut from the final that were present in that beta version that it was just mind blowing at the time. I don't think any other prototype has had the same impact that one had in the early days of the internet.
use debug mode to get past the dead ends
Most of them have little or nothing after the cutoff point.
I purposely didn't use debug mode because I thought it would be fun to see how far I could make it in a normal playthrough.
Hiden palace is not only in Sonic Origins, it was also included in mobile port, in the death pit there is no longer spikes, the pit extends and player falls in Hiden Palace Zone
Interestingly, one of the switches in Simon wai oil ocean actually appears on a screenshot on the back of the US box.
I remember these prototypes.. It was fun just to mess around with them and we eventually got several rom hacks based on them. Eventually some of said Rom Hackers made their own studio and were licensed by Sega to make official ports of Sonic 1 & 2 to Phones as well as CD to basically all systems, in the Sonic 2 remake Hidden Palace was a hidden zone you could access via the death pit in Mystic Cave Act 2. Then Sonic Mania came to exist. Funny how Sega actually joined forces with rom hackers to make better games, instead of whatever Nintendo is doing.
Bruh what nintendo is doing is bringing almost 10/10 games without ppl contracted
@@tomasrabelobelchiordemelo3422 For some yes, but I can def say that is not the case with games like Pokemon where they strike many fangames and rom hacks and produce garbage in comparison to some of those games. I am more talking in terms of how nintendo doesnt have respect for the very fans of franchises they enjoy.
9:00 Sonic 2 introduced a path swapping system, this one is missing a path swap object right in front of it.
Interesting. They had loops in Sonic 1, but the loops in Sonic 2 were definitely more complex.
@@pojr you can complete that stage by taking the alternate/secret path
Fun fact: if you go into the sonic 2 mobile port, go into mystic cave zone (act 2), one of the pits before the boss brings u to hidden palace zone
I found it out myself cuz i sucked
Did you try the debug code when you played it? I’m curious whether or not that was available in those prototypes considering the level select was. And did you use the 19,65,09,17 level select or was there a different way to access it?
The level select code in both prototypes are the same, but you put in a button combination on the title screen. You don't have to use the sound test. Debug mode is in both prototypes as well, but I didn't use them.
Hidden Palace was actually added to more future ports like mobile and origins. And Sand Shower was scrapped but then came back as Mirage Saloon in Sonic Mania. It is also confirmed that Mirage Saloon is on West Side Island because you get launched into Oil Ocean by one of those gun launchers. Good to know that they didn’t completely get rid of these zones!
In the Nick Arcade prototype, the reason why you get pink-screened at Final Zone was because, going further will trigger the Egg Crusher boss fight, however since the Egg Crusher's data was stripped from the game, and since the game couldn't find it, this will cause a runtime error and crash the game. Also, correction about Hidden Palace Zone. Hidden Palace Zone was first officially introduced in the 2013 mobile remaster by Christian Whitehead. This was accessed by falling down a pit that takes you there which originally was an inescapable pit of spikes in the original Sega Genesis game. Sonic Origins's source code for Sonic 2 came from the 2013 remaster game, just like Sonic 1, and Sonic CD which received a 2011 remaster. The idea of visiting the Hidden Palace Zone for the Chaos Emeralds was revisited in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, where once you have both cartridges together, you can access the Hidden Palace Zone via super rings in order to get the Super Emeralds to become Hyper Sonic.
“Nick Arcade” | “Simon Wai”
Truly the Sonic 2 prototype names of all time.!.!
TBF, Simon Wai is the name of the guy who found it back in 1997
The missing title screen in the manual became the title game for Sonic 2 on the Game Gear, though they flipped Sonic and Tails, and had Sonic show two fingers instead of a thumbs up.
Knock-back could be nice actually if the effect still allows you to control Sonic => imagine a reduced bounce and that you can still do some things, so you could use the bounce speed to your advantage, like run the other direction without starting from speed 0.
"That red enemy" I'm going to declare a mecha Bulbax.
That round ball at 10:23 reminds me of the Commodore/Escom Amiga "boing ball" logo.
I figured it was just a mini version of the ball from the Green Hill Zone boss in Sonic 1.
I don't really see any problem with putting a disadvantage on the spin dash to make it less appealing to just constantly use it and rely on it.
Fun fact, Sonic 2 was developed in only 9 months. The game had almost 50 bug testers. That's more than twice the size of most dev teams that worked on any Sonic game. Despite this, Sonic 2 wasn't a fully playable game till two days before completion.
The knockback mechanic would've been terrible, but implementing something similar for when you get stuck in a wall would've been better than just calling it "one of Dr. Robotnik's diabolical traps" in the manual.
5:17 Hidden Palace is on the mobile version of Sonic the hedgehog 2 just with a level select code and it's entirely different since we have no buttons to Press
I remember the Simon Wai beta well.
20 years ago when I started to go to Internet cafes because we didn't yet had fast Internet at home, I looked up ROM sides because very young me didn't know better at the time that this was actually illegal stuff.
Anyhow, finding any ROMs was rather difficult and I wanted to play Sonic 2 badly on my PC.
This beta was the only Sonic 2 ROM I could find for the longest time.
It bored me rather quickly back then too but these days, I can quite appreciate beta ROMs and find enjoyment in them.
I remember being in KayBee toys in the early 90s and playing a Sonic game. I think it was 1. and the idle animation, when you don't hit anything and Sonic gets impatient, he actually gets outy a yo-yo and starts playing with it. I never saw him do that in any other release of Sonic 1.
this guy couldnt even turn debug mode on to progress further in some levels
Someone needs to make a sonic origins mod where the original vision of hidden palace zone was put in, with you being sent there after getting all chaos emeralds
Is the debug mode available in the early prototypes? If so, it may be interesting to explore the levels that end up blocking you from progressing further.
Yes it is
It is. I purposely didn't use debug mode because I thought it would be fun to see how far I could make it in a normal playthrough.
@@pojr definitely understood. Would it be worth revisiting to see what’s out there?
@@pojr Okay that is cool.
You won me over with the V-Rally music in the intro. A very colorful history, the Sonic 2 prerelease lore.
the music in sonic 2 is based on music composed by masato nakamura, you can hear the pre console music called "masa's demos"
they are slower in tempo for unknown reasons, the game versions have more changes from the pre console versions the early build music from simon wai sounds closer to the original demos
Emerald hill zone, chemical plant and hilltop zone might be the oldest maps in the game and oil ocean and airship might be the newest with casino night in the middle
Hilariously, the feature of Sonic being knocked back by running into a wall at full speed did resurface in Sonic Unleashed!
The Wii and PS2 versions, to be exact. If you boosted into a wall, Sonic would cartoonishly flatten against the wall like a pancake, fall to the ground (still flattened), then return to normal after a second. It only happened if you were boosting and there was no risk of being sent backward into a hazard, so it was more funny than frustrating.
I could've sworn Sonic Heroes also had that as a feature, if you ran into a wall with enough speed, the character would just fall to the ground stunned for a bit before getting back up
Funnily enough, the "knockback" feature was implemented into a Sonic game many years later: The Wii/PS2 version of Sonic Unleashed. I think it works better in a game like that one, mostly because A) It punishes you for running and boosting mindlessly into walls, and B) It's hilarious when Sonic boosts into a wall and falls like a cartoon character.
cool
Remember sonic 2 eight bit where tails dies if you don't collect all the chaos emeralds?
Always thought hidden palace music was amazing the one left in the final game
Does the Saimon Wai build end after chemical plant ?
I can swear i played something similar as a kid , a 4 games in one cartridge and i was so confused why it kept ending after chemical plant , i once start mashing random buttons on the title screen and got the level select screen i went to mystic cave zone only to be blocked off i kept trying until the time ran out. i honesly have no idea how i got this or how i entered the level select as a kid but it stayed in my head all this time.
Yeah this build was apparently a pretty big target for bootleggers
No, after clicking start on Title Screen you start from Aquatic Ruin Zone, then Chemical Plant Zone, then Hill Top Zone, then Emerald Hill Zone and return to Title Screen
I would like to listen to the full version of your outro music. Can you tell me the title?:)
It's from Pac-Man arrangement, level 1.
You know what game has that stupid knock back feature? 06.
Hidden palace zone was also playable in sonic 2 on mobile done by Cristian Whitehead and the sand/desert zone did get a version of it put in sonic mania. Just a few minor fyi things.
the way you said metropolis zone ticked me off but not in a bad way
Getting stuck in dirt while knock back on metal and slamming on marble would have been wild.
wow, that knock back would have been horrible. great video showing off these early Sonic 2 builds Pojr!
bro when u said metropolis like that apart of me died ngl
i was looking for this comment 😭😭
@@CubeClarityGaming yw
I actually liked the sprites they cut out. It seems to give sonic more 'life' instead of his constant static side profile (aside the standing around sprite but thats about it).
Also, I'm surprised there was no mention of debug mode where you can get to the places where you had no access to. Was debug mode not available during prototype?? I'd be very surprise if that were the case!
A lot of games used beta screens on their box art and manuals. Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario RPG, for example
This is the game that caused the issues with Sega of America and Sega of Japan, these issues will ultimately lead Sega to bow out of the console race with the Dreamcast
It was better for them to quit the console race to be honest
I always took their *real* falling out of sync to be the 32X. There were plenty of bad signs before that though, that's just where it was like... everything before that I could write off as professional. Sega of Japan's handling of 32X was malicious *and* self-destructive.
You need to understand the point of prototypes. Its unlikely that such a feature would of remained after negative feedback.
Game devs go through many many builds or prototypes, testing and tossing ideas until its finally decided what stays and what doesnt
The getting hit on the wall was actually used on Sonic Adventure 1
(Maybe there's more?)
Great video! It would seem to me that the available "Nick Arcade" prototype is not the same build they used on the show, because Tails doesn't appear to be included. As you mentioned, it's possible to lose Tails in these builds. However, we see footage of the players right at the beginning of a level, (such as at 2:47) and there's no sign of Tails.
Tails is specifically disabled in Emerald Hill.
@budgetcoinhunter oh, thanks. That's interesting. I wonder if the developers preferred it that way, or if it was a decision made with the TV show in mind.
Ugh, yea I remember that show of kids playing video games…quite possibly the worst bit of filler they could’ve gotten to fill a half an hour.
Not only was it boring as heck, but the kids were absolutely MISERABLE at the objectives. I kid you not it was something close to miraculous for one of them to actually accomplish the task.
Thank god infomercials came along to fill in that time slot…they were way more entertaining.
Fun fact: the knockback was later added in sonic heroes.
The song used at 12:51 is that Bomberman I'm trying to find it's driving me nuts I know I've heard it before.
it's not from Bomberman, it's from the Pac-man Arrangement arcade game
@@SneakyGreninjaI knew it rang some bells I had the gba collection with the 4 games in it man it’s been a while since I’ve played that game.
Something i have no Idea How i noticed is that the physics of the betas is a bit off compared with the final game
That knock back mechanic is almost as bad as tripping in Smash Bros. Brawl.
Indeed lol
@@pojr But at least developing Sonic 2 they had thought to themselves, "Hey! This is actually a bad idea."
Honestly, the knockback mechanic, if toned down, limited to when not spinning, and canceled when running into something pushable, would have been potentially fun, adding just a little bit more of a challenge to speedruns.
Great video but that clickbait title should be illegal
how sure are we in using the term of a ‘rom hack’ as a development process? I would find it very odd that it would be rom hack if sega has all access to sonic 1 source code. It isn’t uncommon for game developers to build sequels using the prior game’s finished project as a starting point, and I would never consider that kind of development process as a rom hack.
The nick arcade show with sonic 2 kinda made me angry due to how the kids played ☠
I think I've heard that final zone tries to load the eggman boss from Sonic 1 but crashes because I can't find it
So if you add it back will it not crash?
More specifically, it tries to load the PLC's (Pattern load cues; essentially lists of art to be loaded in VRAM) for the boss, but in the prototype, they're overwritten by garbage data, which causes this crash.
Even if you were to correct this tho, there's another problem:
The code for the Final zone boss no longer exists (it just points to ObjectNull, like every other empty object slot)
Look at the Sonic 2 SMS title screen then the Sonic 2 Simon Wai Beta title screen. Notice something?
2:23 The desert level was actually recreated in Sonic mania
I think tails loses your rings because they were working on 2 player mode at that point in development.
The way you said Metropolis pissed me off.
Sonic falling to his death is making me remember falling in m dreams and then I wake up! lol
Tbh i would really like a mod where that knockback mechanic is added back. I know it will ruin the game but i think it'd be fun to try
Also, fun fact: the BGM used in Hidden Palace Zone is apperently the 2P BGM for Mystic Cave Zone. As it goes by "Mystic Cave Zone 2P" in Sonic Origins' Museum
I often have recurring nightmares about falling from great heights, and the number of times that it's happening in the prototype is triggering the same kind of... liminal-falling feeling quite strongly. It makes me wonder if the number of times I fell to the bottom of Chemical Plant Zone as a kid is something that contributed to the frequency of my re-experiencing this in my dreams.
Damn, I remember watching that episode of Nick Arcade multiple times, good times >w
That title screen sonic i like more than the retail one.
That thumbnail better not be fucking clickbait.
Just use debug mode if you wanna see what's further in the impassable stages, or just watch some Terta Bit Gaming, if wanna see more lost bits.
Wait...did you use some of the BGM from Hotline Miami in your video? Or are my ears failing me?
8:30 of course it wouldnt have been in sonic 1, sonic 1 didnt have the spindash!
Lol, true. But it was still possible to activate the knockback by running into it really fast.
oh yeah
stupid feature
10:37
You pronounce it as Metro-polis zone? Thats a new one.
I'm sorry. I was a kid who played all the genesis-era Sonic games as they were released and the notion that 2 is the best is just baffling to me. S3K is by far the superior game IMO.
Fun fact : Sonic 2 have 10 prototypes
can u pls do a video on the sonic 1 proto?
Original level Order from concept arts:
Present Time:
Green Hill Zone (Early Emerald Hill Zone)
Ocean Wind Zone (Cut Zone)
Woods Zone (Early Wood Zone) (Cut Zone)
Sand Shower Zone (Desert Zone from magazines) (Cut Zone)
Metropolis Zone
Warp Point (Cutscene)
Ancient Time:
Tropical Plant/Tropical Sun Zone (Cut Zone)
Hill Top Zone
Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus (Early Hidden Palace Zone) (Cut Zone) (Secret Zone)
Rock World Zone (Cut Zone) (Winter version of Sand Shower Zone)
Warp Point? (I don't know) (Cutscene)
Ruined Present Time:
Rock World Zone (Again,maybe a ruined version?)
Oil Ocean Zone
Dust Hill Zone (Early Mystic Cave Zone)
Olimpus (Cutscene Version)
Death Egg Zone
Ancient Time After Big Tsunami:
Hill Top Zone (Again)
Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Again)
Tropical Summer Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus (Cutscene Version)
Future Time:
Casino Night Zone
Chemical Plant Zone
Genocide City/Cyber City Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus? (Cutscene Version)
Return To Ancient Time:
Fire Mountain/Volcano Zone (Cut Zone) (Later replaced by Neo Green Hill Zone)
Neo Death Egg Zone (Cut Zone)
Note:Sonic The Hedgehog 2 was supposed to have time travel
Rock World Zone may have been a transition zone to the present, hence why the maps show it in two places.
Olympus wasn't a zone. It may have evolved into Hidden Palace Zone based on its placement, however.
Corrections
The reason there's two rock worlds in past and ruined present concept arts is because the past was the 1st plan before being moved to the ruined present.
Also the tsunami thing was cut before the time travel was cut so it would be blue ocean then hill top before chemical plant
That would mean in the ancient time it would just be tropical plant before going to the ruined present. Also tropical summer is an earlier name and they're the same zone
Olympus would come after dust hill to travel into the ancient time again because metropolis aka the warp point was ruined. How the Olympus do that is because it's referenced as the 2nd warp point. It would appear I believe on the same spot as the ancient time concept art
@@jq2yt I know, only the levels are in this order, I don't count cutscenes
@@RatchetAndClank14 okay but if I were you I'd update the order only
@@jq2yt Already updated
How come you ignored Genocide City Zone in the level select?
Hidden Palace is also in the mobile remake, not just Sonic Origins
congrats on analyzing quite well these prototypes
Great video. I played the hell out of Sonic 2 when I was a kid. Do you know if there are prototype builds of Sonic CD? I'd love to see some stuff on that one!
CD Sonic you mean?
There are builds of Sonic CD but they're not as interesting as Sonic 2 sadly
@@SnuggleBear_80s No? I mean the Sonic game for the Sega CD: Sonic CD.
@@anonanonymous9670 Ah, gotcha. Maybe there are interesting prototypes out there yet to be discovered!
You can beat Broken Green Hill and reach the end in Chemical Plant in the Early Prototype/Nick Arcade prototype
To this day, long falls into the pit gives me serious anxiety. Many Sonic 2 levels for me felt floating and that one slip would drop me to my doom. Hated it.
I got anxiety just watching this video with those unfinished level pit drops 😖
The knockback mechanic looks so goofy lol
1:25 that title screen comes from the sms/game gear sonic 2
Not gonna lie the prototypes of sonic running looks so good better then the final why would they remove it?
Actually u can access the hidden palace in the mobile version of sonic 2 (yes there is a mobile version)
I want to see hidden palace zone
I'd love to know - in detail - the origins of that mechanic. Was it hints of Naka's fall from grace (as in, Naka came up with that terrible idea himself) or did some guy literally just say "why doesn't he get hurt when he runs head-first into walls?" and then they implemented it, before shortly realizing that guy was absolutely r*tarded and removed it.
P.S. being a Sonic fan in the earlier years of the Internet and discovering there was a whole community around the SW prototype, and frantically reading and researching everything as a young Sonic autist was awesome.