Why APDS is "Bad" in War Thunder
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
- Today we dive deeper into the mysteries of APDS in War Thunder.
M60A1 (AOS)
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Early APDS actually was tungsten carbide. It got replaced by a tungsten alloy because the alloy was more ductile, meaning it deforms elastically rather than shattering like TC. You can actually see this in game, the conqueror's TC APDS gets stopped by the super pershing's upper front plate.
Yes! You are right, I got my words a bit jumbled trying to record all of this in one take 😂
Ill pin you so people can read! :)
Early APDS - Tungsten Carbide (heavy, brittle)
Late APDS - Tungsten Alloy (Soft, Malleable)
@@TurnyPlaysand there is also one sort of in between where the APDS is capped to stop it immediately shattering.
Also tungsten carbide is hard and brittle enough it’s classed as a pseudo ceramic, not a metal.
@@TurnyPlays
there are 3 gens of APDS, tho in reality more like 2.5.
gen 1 are carbide APDS. they have high flat pen but bad angle pen and shatter on spaced armor very often.
gen 2 are carbide core with thungsten alloy cap. they have less flat pen than gen 1 and more angle pen, and almost never shatter
gen 3 are alloy APDS. they have somewhat bad flat pen, but have very good angle pen, rivaling some APFSDS even. they dont shatter.
gen 1 APDS:
swedish 37, 57, 75mm APDS
UK: 76mm, 83mm, 120mm (only the Conq)
USA: 76mm, 105mm (only the T54E1 and E2)
gen 2 APDS:
every 105mm L7 gun APDS with ~350mm pen (a bit more on the Strv 103 due to longer barrel): Shot L28A1, M392A2, slpprj m/61, DM13
however, the 105mm L7 APDS acts more like a gen 3 APDS, or rather it could be called something like gen 2.5
soviet 100 and 122mm APDS
however they act more like gen 1, so they can be called gen 1.5
gen 3 APDS:
105mm L7: M728, slpprj m/66, Chieftain's 120mm
@o-hogameplay185 super helpful. Thank you so much for this info.
Now I know which APDS to bring as secondary and which to bring as primary.
@@jasonnguyen1840 i am glad it helped.
in general NATO gen 2 and gen3 APDS are good as a main shell, but gen 1 and soviet gen 2 should be used only if more pen is needed.
and i forgot tomention the german DM13, which is the same as the shot L28A1, that is NATO gen 2 too.
I like realism but the way they made early APDS shatters at such a high rate is dumb, shell shatter should be a very rare occurrence and I'm talking it might happen once in 50 games type rare.
I agree it's a horrible game mechanic
I don't even mind the shatter that much, at least the game has made up its mind. What I really hate is when the shell vanishes into thin air because the game engine didn't like the point of impact.
@@maschinenkanone108 I'm lucky that I rarely get ghost shells, for me it's mainly shell shattered that happens to me.
I can say from all the AP simulations I've watched, tungsten carbide does have a terrible tendency to shatter (the super hard stuff that was used in early APDS and APCR).
Except in WT when it's on the Russian side. The garbage early Soviet APFSDS that's just a steel dart with a piece of tungsten carbide on the tip? Works just fine unlike WC APDS (which it is, and it sucked, absolutely nothing like solid tungsten alloy or DU APFSDS).
Pretty sure only gen 1 apds shatters. Not sure about gen 2. But gen 3 doesn't. Not all apds shatters but just dont shoot sharp angles. Gen 1 is like slightly better apcr. If gen 2 also shatters then it's the same same but different
One part of me broke all time i read "shell shattered" on the most easy/flat shoot because a 0.2mm overlapped plate are on the way
WC; Tungsten Carbide is the brittle type with poor angle pen. Turny referred to this as just “Tungsten” in the intro. He then called Tungsten Alloy- the APDS with better angle pen- Tungsten Carbide. It’s an easy mistake to make but someone had to correct it for the sake of accuracy!
i should have taken a video, but i had this t32e1 pass by in front of my centurion mk10 completely unaware of me with his side perpendicular to my gun. i fire, it lands, and it shatters on the tiny road wheel of the t32e1 dealing 0 damage and alerting him of my presence. needless to say, i was not happy.
I have vivid memories of doing this a lot
Gaijin's wonky RNG does this a lot. I failed to pen a T-72 from the side at point blank range, with an APFSDS dart because I hit the edge of the fender, which is made out of aluminum!
@@x_f1nity602 i wish Gaijin actually made a video where 10000 apds shots were tested against various tricky armor parts like tracks or tiny objects that disrupt the overall shape of armor in general, and that they fix the shell behavior because no damage at all in case of hitting a track from the side is ridiculous
But... Centurions mk10 apds don't shatter???? 20pdr APDS centurions rounds shatter
@@hubertino855 yeah so you see thats also what i believed, i never thought a video game could make me question the reality of things
Apds= amusingly painful dart shell
An F in the chat for T-Mizzle's missed nuke, as commanded.
🙏
I think the next step is low-tier using a line-up of Swedish 37mm APDS peashooters. It's awful until you learn how to target enemy crew and modules, then it's incredible. Armor and angles no longer exist, you just disassemble the enemy tank piece-by-piece, including French tanks.
It's weird you say that, because I recently started grinding Sweden and found the APDS rounds doing quite good damage
@@Jatzki I've found that compared to American 37mm the damage is comparable, but comparing to German 37mm or Russian 45mm, it's lower than average.
I’m Swedish so when my friend told me to play ground (I’m an air enjoyer) I was like why not and let me tell you if he couldn’t pen something I definitely could! Would sometimes take a few shots depending on where the hit was but pen is pen
@@bensonfitch6697the damage is good enough and especially at lower tiers it’s absolutely comical just shooting turret rings
Finally someone explained APDS and how to distinguish whether we should use it or nah. Turny you bastard I love you
Im glad this was helpful! Thanks Bruce!
there are 3 gens of APDS, tho in reality more like 2.5.
gen 1 are carbide APDS. they have high flat pen but bad angle pen and shatter on spaced armor very often.
gen 2 are carbide core with thungsten alloy cap. they have less flat pen than gen 1 and more angle pen, and almost never shatter
gen 3 are alloy APDS. they have somewhat bad flat pen, but have very good angle pen, rivaling some APFSDS even. they dont shatter.
gen 1 APDS:
swedish 37, 57, 75mm APDS
UK: 76mm, 83mm, 120mm (only the Conq)
USA: 76mm, 105mm (only the T54E1 and E2)
gen 2 APDS:
every 105mm L7 gun APDS with ~350mm pen (a bit more on the Strv 103 due to longer barrel): Shot L28A1, M392A2, slpprj m/61
however, the 105mm L7 APDS acts more like a gen 3 APDS, or rather it could be called something like gen 2.5
soviet 100 and 122mm APDS
however they act more like gen 1, so they can be called gen 1.5
gen 3 APDS:
105mm L7: M728, slpprj m/66, Chieftain's 120mm
The Italians get a pretty fantastic APDS at 7.7 and is good enough that I pack a few in my OF-40 Mk. 2a - similar performance to the DM23 with much better post-pen damage in my experience
But with APDS you really have to be aware that you want to be shooting the flattest spot you can, and that tracks and side skirts will do unkind things to your shells much more frequently so just aim above them. You've probably got the pen for the extra armor, your shell doesn't have the ability to stay together through that stuff.
Thats also a gen 2 apds not gen 1 like what many are complaining about. I mean I complain about it too when you get shell shatter on the flat side of a marder lol.
carbide = hard and brittle
alloy = soft and ductile
carbide vs. vertical armor
alloy vs. sloped armor
I happy you’re doing American apds :) . M60 apds and m41a1 and t92 apds are pretty fun low tier apds sluggers for its br :)
Isn’t the Bulldog’s APDS early APDS, tungsten carbide? The one that shatters?
Turny did an entire video thanks to my sarcasm, amazing. This is why I subscribed to this dude.
They can represent both of these APDS types with different images, like how short rod and long rod APFSDS are represented by different images. The icon for short rods has a diamond shaped projectile, while the icon for long rods has a straight pencil like projectile.
1st gen apds is flimsy, but I cant get the image of apfsds hitting sloped armor and shattering at top tier out of my head.
In fact, when it comes to APDS, the point is that in most cases they will not work on the Centurion Mk 3, it depends on the opponents you encounter while playing this vehicle. When playing Centurion Mk 2, you mainly encounter Panthers, Tigers and Tigers 2, so this APDS is simply very useful, especially since the Centurion is not the king of mobility and you can pierce the front plate of the Panther with this APDS. The Centurion Mk 2 can even be used as something between a medium and a heavy tank because when play against Shermans, T-34s, Panthers and Tigers, they will bounce off the Centurion's armor in most cases.
This is my opinion and I will stick to it. Later APDS are better, but my entire comment was mainly about APDS on Centurion Mk 2 and Mk 3, where on Mk 3 they are in most cases useless after all the APDS nerfs.
For the Technical Nerds amongst us czcams.com/video/J4Mc9NEUQ2I/video.html
Tungsten carbide is not an alloy, its a compound of tungsten and carbon (there is a big difference). Tungsten carbide is indeed harder than tungsten, by almost an order of magnitude, second only to diamond.
Some other things are alot more hard then diamond, but incredibly brittle
Early APDS is tungsten carbide. It had immensely good flat pen, but terrible angled pen. New APDS (and by extension non-DU APFSDS) use tungsten alloy which doesn't have as much flat pen but has instead much better angled pen.
105mm APDS rounds, such as the DM13, M728 and M392A2 are actually quite good. I remember that all APDS rounds in this game were way worse like a year or two ago before Gaijin buffed them.
Last time i played this tank it used to be so good, it was after apds changes so it should be the same as it was
Thanks for teaching me something new today!
Glad it was insightful! :D
I had a shell shatter 5x in a row from 500m on the UFP of a Marder.
Basically every tank with an L7 gun variant strapped to it has a decent APDS shell, at least in my experience.
Funny that you play this thank at the same time as i startet grinding it xD
yessss he finally made an M60A1 video
1:35 WEAOW
Early apds and hvap were tungsten carbide which is super hars but brittle, newer apds and apfsds use tungsten alloys which are softer
Personally in the early British Cold War tanks i use a rough 15/5/10 loadout of APDS, HE, AP rounds. The apds is my main round but I keep he because I’m not stupid and the ap for more damage on lighter targets like IFVs and light tanks.
The problem is how little this is communicated, they dont even tell you the material. I would not look at 4mm more pen at 60 degrees and conclude that one sucks and one doesn't. There is also the problem that apds damage is based on main gun caliber with everything 75mm and lower having the same damage profile. Stuff liek this just leads to the game feeling very inconsistent, add volumetric armor, random damage and desync ontop and it can get pretty frustrating sometimes.
I've only recently unlocked the M60 and tbh Ive been enjoying it even as a stock grind. The apds is pretty decent!
Any chance to check out the SU-85A? It's got a new 85mm gun, but it's got a 7 second reload.
I have a question: The Strv 103A has a stock round 300+ mm pen at point blank, but the top modification shell (idk if that makes sense) only has 270 mm of pen and its worse at angled stuff. so wich one should i use, is it just like a gajin messup?
Personally, on the cheese wedges I run M/66 over M/61. As a general rule (Angled Pen > Flat Pen)
You can certainly take some of both though, and use the higher pen rounds when you want to hit a flat surface, if you like!
Hope that helps :)
@@TurnyPlaysYes, thank you
Im just happy to see you play the m60aos which in my opinion was the last good m60
I found the M60s to be better than people say. The TTS can be a very fun tank to use, though it’s slow.
Early APDS I like using is the M41A1's APDS. Its enough to deal with Panthers and T-34's so its good enough for me
Bulldog uses gen 2 (late APDS) that's why it's really good :)
Day one: you should a tank with stock HEAT. Like the Abrams AIM
I swear it used to show the material for APDS and darts before but nowdays I cannot find it for the life of me.
It only does for some APFSDS, take a look at the T-62's ammo :)
@@TurnyPlays AH that's it, I saw it on 3BM25 on the t-55-am.
loved the M60A1 for so long until i played the T-55A which is the same br and rather play the that instead of the M60 which is sad. it can be fun but T-55A (and the Leopard 1) is so much better. Love to see ya play the T-55A :D
Gaijin also has a delightful RNG mechanic which I find to be very annoying and it seems to affect everyone's shells. Like the time I hit the side of a T-72... at PB range and near a near 90 degree angle, with a 105mm APFSDS dart and it hit the fender... and did no damage apart from making a couple of red spots appear in the little damage camera window.
Hate when you shoot at weakspots with APDS and very often the shell shatters or it non-pens.
Day 2 of asking turny to play german JaPz.K A2. Its very good at 8.7 with 4 secound autoloader thermals and lazer rangefinder but no stablizer
Most modern APDS projectiles use high strength shock resistant tungsten alloys.
- Wikipoodie
I would much rather use it over heatfs do to one thing
Gaijin’s insistence of obstacle spam. Vehicles like the he scorpion don’t have mg’s to take care of that. And alot of other tanks get weak rifle mg’s incapable of taking care of things like concrete walls
that outro lol
Easily one of my favorite tanks in the US tech tree……at least before the dark times
If you and ThunderWar play together, you guys would be unstoppable...
I’m not sure if thunder war speaks English but it would be a good duo
Had that in the m60, it apds is good stats wise but it just shatters and bounces on things it shouldn't.... and I do know from the vickers mk 1 and stb1 that have the same gun and round that it shouldn't behave like that
STB-2 now
He was trying to hit you with his sword and you ruined it.
no idea why, but compared to the apds of the m41 and t92, the pain of m82 being around far longer than it should, solid shot shitboxes, and the endless assortment of 6-7 br tanks with worthless heat. The first time i used the m60 with it's godsend apds i got 6 kills before dying...i dont know what crack they feed that shit but it works
105 sabot is one of the funnest rounds in the game
idk what the hell people are on about
the turny plays experience: oh this vehicle is bad. (proceeds to almost get a nuke) yeah so anyways, as i was saying. this vehicle is bad.
WOOOEIIIIIUGGGGHHHHHHHH - Turny
Womp Womp to Mr. Benno0420.
Turny is the APDS on the Cent Mk.10 the stinky one or the good one?
Im fairly certain it's early APDS, but honestly, the 105 (L7) APDS isnt bad at all :) (nowhere near as good as what Germany / USA get at the same BR's though)
1:34 "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWW"
I feel like it comes down to BR too. The APDS on the cent 1, M41 and Challenger work great for me, probably because they overpower pretty much everything they see at 5.3-6.3. I can definitely understand that by 6.7-7.7 you face a lot more sloped armor and module layouts which mean tanks are less likely to be crippled from the first shot so they can punish you.
M41 uses late APDS, that's why it feels so good :)
Honestly, I find it really weird how the centurion mk1s 17 pounder APDS has much more consistent performance than the charioteer's 84mm APDS, even though (iirc) they're both tungsten carbide and the 84 should just be better.
M109A1 at top tier would be funny
damn so these are the tanks i have to face with my leopard 1... stabalizers are a game changer
Germany got it's own stabilizer extremely late in tech tree for absolutely no reason, the only one you can get is TURM III and it's a premium. Everyone else gets stabilizers at 7.7-8.3, meanwhile Germany got it's own at 8.7 with the TAM, and 9.0 for an actual MBT (Leo a1a1,) which is dumb since Leo a1a1 was produced very little after initial Leo I's. You have to use superior speed to get to sniping spots and use your superior sights in Leo I, and make use of a good, speed dependant lineup (df105, bmp1, marder for spaa/occasionally antitank, and the raketenautomat and raketenjagdpanzer for hull down camping gameplay. )
I am your little friend in the french AMX-13-90 from the beginning. I did not appreciate you killing me there, I was busy handling your teammates XD
Same Same but different!
48 tigers in 1 shot, has to be a lie. my record is only 43 in 1 shot
Damn 😯😯
TAM lol xd got killed by a TAM 2IP today and it said Strf 9040B
Does Turny have a Nono Square?
Early apds is a shoot the gunner first round
T26E1-1 tanks gen 1 apds to the hull like a beast. Shatters every time. Then you have the T32 with supposedly better ufp that gets shredded
Gen 1 APDS, like APCR, breaks appart after impact. Thus spaced armor, like on the Super Pershing, is very effective against it.
Trying to kill a super Persh with a Conq is the definition of suffering 😂😂
Day 1 of asking turny to play of-40 🙈
Because it doesn't have a stabilizer
Oh yeah so put the tanks with the early apds down in br
Gaijin: no
If you wanna turn this into a APDS Trio then you could show some gameplay of the Chieftain 3/5's 120 APDS
Although i think youve done the early-mid chieftains within the last 1 -1.5 years so. But just ideas for videos because i know you do love your chiefies, even if they're arguably dogwater
Noice : ap with tnt
So so : ap without tnt
Bruh : apcr
Fun : He
Troll: 183mm 🅱️ ESH
7:18 I carry HESH for these kind of situations on the M60A1
I was totally stock lol
@@TurnyPlays Yeah I noticed after commenting, still recommend carrying a few after you've unlocked them!
Ah yes M60A1 AOS
My primary tank for event along with M60A2, T95E1 and Bradley
Played it so much i got it aced but disappointed that i only got 6.7 sec reload
M60 (along with M48, Magach, Centurion) is supposedly have fast reload for 105mm, hell even M60 reload is said to have faster reload than 105mm Abrams due to lack of safety features
Giving it fastest L7 105mm reload to balance its massive size and bad acceleration should be decent enough
It has realistic reload, Abrams is just buffed artificially because it absolutely suck for the period it was build. Anemic shell, rest is ok but meh, decent armor. And since us players are amongst the most prominent in that game GAIJIN gives them everything they ask for. And tbf 6.7 secs ain't that bad for a tank of this br
Same-Same, But different.
Thank you so much for this explanation. I never realized the differece till now 😇
Glad it was helpful!
Your apds shattered, but there's no r
Skill Issue is all I got from that video :^)
AcKsHUaLlY 🤓🤓 Correcting you for the algorithm.
Same same but different
So a Tamder it is?
At this point, I guess so lmao
And my dumb ass has been maining HEATFS on that tank
Take a few for sure, but APDS is king here!
Day 3 fcm.36
Has anyone ever told you that you sound like GameRiot?
In my opinion the 8.0 M60 is better because of its extra mobility and lower BR
Lmao he says the m60a1 aos m728 round is effective but in battles constantly shatteres or bounces off of shit that shouldnt be possible legit hate this round compared to the leo/british apds on the first m60 way better round outside of 60° and the spal with m728 is also shit even though in tests it works way better than in battle shooting the same areas
I dont know why but the M60s APDS is the only APDS which work for me
The M60's APDS is awesome! :)
That and DM13.
As an APDS enjoyer i just have to say that really small APDS is shit everything from the Centurion Mk.2 is good and is actually good to play with.
Zero views? Wow im early
Early bird catches the morsel
Based
i did not know this i though all apds was shit
Glad it was helpful dude!
Funny how some APDS are shit (L28a1 like the cent 10 one), and others aren't, like M60a1 Aos one, pens everything, no shatter, no nothing. Playin both, the same caliber, Cent Faaar worse.
"how did that happen"
the driver was exposed at an angle he could certainly pen your tank. its that simple
Marder=Tam
Day 264 of asking for some juicy black prince gameplay 👾
You go from any piece of trash 8.0 to 8.3 and get stabilizers and better ammunition. It's just a joke.
Is this why I hate APDS in all the low tier Swedish stuff (yes I know unpopular opinion)?
It has its ups and downs. Yeah, the post pen damage sucks. However, in this case it's primarily an issue with the cannon caliber. All low-tier Swedish tanks with APDS use the 37 mm kan m/38, and the APDS projectile mass is only 0.3 kg. With such a low projectile mass, spalling is negligible.
You have enough penetration to get through most vehicles' armor, even with the downsides of tungsten carbide APDS. It's just a matter of getting rid of their crew (or ammo) in time.
Pretty much, just aim for flat angles and your reload will do the rest for you.
Early Swedish APDS is like playing darts, you have to pick modules / crew individually :P but they reload quick so it works.
The fact it has it at all is what people don't like, because it basically nullifies any heavy tank, even if you only use it as your secondary round!
Finally someone that uses expert crews.
Way too many noobs running base crews despite having millions of SL
Best kept secret in WT.... maxing out your crew can make all the difference, even makes your turret turn faster!
WO
WE
(poverty mindset wowe)
Any wowe, is a great wowe.
F
You've made me kinda glad that I don't bother with vehicles who's normal premium round is APDS. (I call them air conditioners) Just never got good results with those things. /shrug
I do reccomend the M60 AOS. It's kinda cracked given it's surprisingly good armour frontally and the stabs increase in reaction time. The round ain't amazing but it's kinda good enough.
As long as its not early APDS, I do recommended giving it a try!
@@TurnyPlays Oh, I understand that part now. and I "MAY" give them another try. We shall see. :)
i always say to myself that those that talk shit about apds are the ones that dont know how to aim, since everytime i use it when playing britain it always works.